1
00:00:42,242 --> 00:00:45,044
     (switches on machine)

2
00:00:47,447 --> 00:00:49,314
       (knocking on door)

3
00:00:53,386 --> 00:00:56,155
    Hello. I'm Mr. Williams.
     Thank you for coming.

4
00:00:56,157 --> 00:00:58,357
      Please? And you are?

5
00:00:58,359 --> 00:01:00,692
         - Fred Miller.
         - You must be?

6
00:01:00,694 --> 00:01:02,361
    Wallace. James Wallace.

7
00:01:02,363 --> 00:01:05,531
  Great. Please. Have a seat.

8
00:01:08,234 --> 00:01:11,403
Now before we do anything else,
      allow me to pay you.

9
00:01:11,405 --> 00:01:14,373
  Please check that both names
     are spelled correctly.

10
00:01:14,375 --> 00:01:17,543
  You understand this is yours
 simply for coming to the lab.

11
00:01:17,545 --> 00:01:20,579
  From now on, no matter what
  happens, the money is yours.

12
00:01:20,581 --> 00:01:22,915
       I'll have to have
      you sign a receipt.

13
00:01:23,783 --> 00:01:26,452
       There you go. Now,
  psychologists have developed

14
00:01:26,454 --> 00:01:29,121
      several theories on
       how humans learn.

15
00:01:29,123 --> 00:01:31,757
 Uh, for example, it might help
      to reward a person.

16
00:01:31,759 --> 00:01:33,492
       Sometimes it helps
        to punish them.

17
00:01:33,494 --> 00:01:35,594
  We do know that punishment,
      thank you very much,

18
00:01:35,596 --> 00:01:38,697
is a powerful incentive towards
     learning. For example,

19
00:01:38,699 --> 00:01:42,468
 when a parent spanks a child.
 However, we know little about

20
00:01:42,470 --> 00:01:44,837
  the effect of punishment on
    learning because almost

21
00:01:44,839 --> 00:01:48,507
no scientific studies have been
  done of it on human beings.

22
00:01:49,576 --> 00:01:52,377
   Now, one of you will play
     the role of "learner",

23
00:01:52,379 --> 00:01:53,712
    who will receive a mild
           punishment

24
00:01:53,714 --> 00:01:56,615
   if he answers incorrectly
   to a series of questions.

25
00:01:56,617 --> 00:01:59,685
    That punishment will be
  administered by a "teacher".

26
00:01:59,687 --> 00:02:02,588
    What kind of punishment
     are we talking about?

27
00:02:02,590 --> 00:02:04,590
  Well, first, let's determine
          which of you

28
00:02:04,592 --> 00:02:07,292
       will be "learner"
  and which will be "teacher."

29
00:02:07,827 --> 00:02:09,495
   If you'll just choose one.

30
00:02:10,396 --> 00:02:11,597
             Good.

31
00:02:13,733 --> 00:02:15,300
            Teacher.

32
00:02:15,302 --> 00:02:17,503
 I guess I'm the learner, huh?

33
00:02:17,505 --> 00:02:19,171
             Good.

34
00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:23,475
    This is the machine for
  generating electric shocks.

35
00:02:24,477 --> 00:02:25,611
           Go ahead.

36
00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:32,184
 Now, let's set up the learner
  to receive some punishment.

37
00:02:32,186 --> 00:02:33,986
    If you'll just follow me
      into the next room.

38
00:02:33,988 --> 00:02:36,255
Is it OK if I leave my hat here?

39
00:02:36,257 --> 00:02:38,423
       Yes, that's fine.

40
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,694
      Now you might wanna
       remove the jacket.

41
00:02:43,062 --> 00:02:44,563
   Go ahead and have a seat.

42
00:02:45,198 --> 00:02:48,367
   Now, when you push one of
      these four buttons,

43
00:02:48,369 --> 00:02:50,569
      this box will signal
   a light in the other room,

44
00:02:50,571 --> 00:02:52,971
 telling the teacher how you're
  responding to the questions.

45
00:02:52,973 --> 00:02:54,806
      (stammers) What kind
         of questions?

46
00:02:54,808 --> 00:03:00,045
   Word pairs. "Strong arm",
 "black curtain", and so forth.

47
00:03:00,047 --> 00:03:02,080
        Now, we want you
       to memorize them.

48
00:03:02,082 --> 00:03:04,716
The teacher will first read them
         as word pairs,

49
00:03:04,718 --> 00:03:08,187
"strong arm", for example, then
he'll read only the first word,

50
00:03:08,189 --> 00:03:11,023
     "strong", followed by
   a series of word choices.

51
00:03:11,025 --> 00:03:13,559
 "Back, arm, branch, and push".

52
00:03:13,561 --> 00:03:16,228
    Your job is to remember
      which of those words

53
00:03:16,230 --> 00:03:18,564
   was originally paired with
   the first word, "strong".

54
00:03:18,566 --> 00:03:19,598
             - Arm.
            - Right.

55
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,668
 You'd indicate that by pushing
one of these buttons here.

56
00:03:22,670 --> 00:03:25,437
 If you had thought it was the
 first word I had read, "back",

57
00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:27,272
 you'd push this first button.

58
00:03:27,274 --> 00:03:29,274
     If you thought it was
    the second word, "arm",

59
00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:31,510
 you'd push the second button,
    so on and so forth with

60
00:03:31,512 --> 00:03:33,979
 third and fourth word choices.

61
00:03:33,981 --> 00:03:35,881
        Now, if you get
     the answer incorrect,

62
00:03:35,883 --> 00:03:38,450
        you will receive
       an electric shock.

63
00:03:38,452 --> 00:03:41,520
    Would you please roll up
 your right arm sleeve, please?

64
00:03:41,522 --> 00:03:45,157
Would you just help me strap him
in to limit any excess movement?

65
00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:47,092
 How far do you think he'll go?

66
00:03:47,094 --> 00:03:48,827
      - Too soon to tell.
    - Williams: Now this is

67
00:03:48,829 --> 00:03:51,530
connected to the shock generator
       in the next room.

68
00:03:51,532 --> 00:03:54,233
       - Electrode paste.
     - And electrode paste,

69
00:03:54,235 --> 00:03:56,802
 to eliminate any excess burns
          or blisters.

70
00:03:56,804 --> 00:04:00,305
Um, you know, I should say that
     a couple of years ago,

71
00:04:00,307 --> 00:04:02,774
      - in the West Haven
         VA Hospital--
           - Mm-hm--

72
00:04:02,776 --> 00:04:06,645
   they determined that I had
   a slight heart condition.

73
00:04:06,647 --> 00:04:11,683
    Nothing serious, but how
  dangerous are these shocks?

74
00:04:12,218 --> 00:04:14,620
Well, although the shocks may be
       extremely painful,

75
00:04:14,622 --> 00:04:17,456
           they cause
  no permanent tissue damage.

76
00:04:18,458 --> 00:04:19,825
            Oh. OK.

77
00:04:20,660 --> 00:04:23,262
  Well, we'll be communicating
      from the next room.

78
00:04:23,264 --> 00:04:25,764
     Stanley:<i> The lab coat,</i>
  <i> I decided to make it grey.</i>

79
00:04:26,165 --> 00:04:28,500
<i> White would seem too medical.</i>

80
00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:47,452
         - Fred: Okay.
     - Williams: Thank you.

81
00:04:47,454 --> 00:04:50,055
   Now, if he gets the answer
   incorrect, you administer

82
00:04:50,057 --> 00:04:54,192
  the shock by flipping one of
 these switches here. You see?

83
00:04:54,194 --> 00:04:56,795
        Each switch has
  a little red light above it.

84
00:04:56,797 --> 00:05:00,599
 Now, to give you, the teacher,
 an idea of the amount of shock

85
00:05:00,601 --> 00:05:03,335
 the learner will be receiving,
    we think it's only fair

86
00:05:03,337 --> 00:05:06,505
   you receive a sample shock
  yourself. Is that all right?

87
00:05:06,507 --> 00:05:09,007
           - Uh- huh.
- OK, just roll up your sleeve.

88
00:05:09,375 --> 00:05:12,210
   Stanley:<i> Life can only be</i>
    <i> understood backwards</i>

89
00:05:12,212 --> 00:05:14,546
<i> but it must be lived forwards.</i>

90
00:05:15,248 --> 00:05:16,748
        Williams: Good.

91
00:05:16,949 --> 00:05:21,320
Now, I'll ask you to close your
 eyes and just estimate for me

92
00:05:21,322 --> 00:05:24,022
      the amount of volts
  you think you're receiving.

93
00:05:25,658 --> 00:05:27,893
           OK, close.

94
00:05:27,895 --> 00:05:29,928
        (machine whirs)

95
00:05:29,930 --> 00:05:33,799
  This part, this part's where
 the experiment really begins.

96
00:05:37,003 --> 00:05:39,071
        (machine buzzes)

97
00:05:39,073 --> 00:05:41,173
         (switches off)

98
00:05:41,808 --> 00:05:44,376
 Now, just use this scale here
 to tell me the amount of volts

99
00:05:44,378 --> 00:05:46,978
     you think you received
      in the sample shock.

100
00:05:46,980 --> 00:05:49,348
           Pfff, 195?

101
00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:52,751
No, actually, that's incorrect.
        It was 45 volts.

102
00:05:53,686 --> 00:05:55,921
        (pen scratches)

103
00:05:55,923 --> 00:05:58,056
           All right.

104
00:06:01,327 --> 00:06:06,231
   OK, learner, uh, I'm going
     to read you the words,

105
00:06:06,233 --> 00:06:08,500
       and then I'm gonna
     repeat the first word

106
00:06:08,502 --> 00:06:12,637
  and you're going to tell me
  the pair for that word. OK?

107
00:06:12,639 --> 00:06:15,874
  Williams: He doesn't have a
microphone but he can hear you.

108
00:06:15,876 --> 00:06:18,944
  Keep it moving, understand?
  Remember, each time he gives

109
00:06:18,946 --> 00:06:22,013
  a wrong answer, move up one
 switch on the shock generator.

110
00:06:22,015 --> 00:06:25,550
It is important that you follow
     the procedure exactly.

111
00:06:25,552 --> 00:06:28,086
(clears throat) OK, here we go.

112
00:06:29,021 --> 00:06:31,957
     "Blue girl. Nice day.

113
00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:34,926
      Fat neck. Green ink.

114
00:06:34,928 --> 00:06:37,562
      Rich boy. Fast bird.

115
00:06:37,564 --> 00:06:40,565
    Blunt arrow. Soft hair.

116
00:06:40,567 --> 00:06:43,535
    Cool cave. Gold paint."

117
00:06:45,304 --> 00:06:47,739
       In the first word.

118
00:06:47,741 --> 00:06:49,941
          "Blue: Boy,

119
00:06:49,943 --> 00:06:52,344
       girl, grass, bat."

120
00:06:52,512 --> 00:06:55,480
           - (buzzer)
        - Correct.

121
00:06:57,116 --> 00:06:59,217
         "Soft rug..."

122
00:06:59,219 --> 00:07:01,553
            Stanley:
  <i> He finds his way into it.</i>

123
00:07:01,555 --> 00:07:05,190
  <i> With increasing confidence</i>
 <i> he finds a rhythm, a groove.</i>

124
00:07:05,192 --> 00:07:07,325
           - (buzzer)
      - That is incorrect.

125
00:07:07,327 --> 00:07:09,027
           <i> Until...</i>

126
00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:10,595
           90 volts.

127
00:07:10,597 --> 00:07:12,931
           - (buzzer)
        - (James groans)

128
00:07:18,304 --> 00:07:20,071
        (clears throat)

129
00:07:20,073 --> 00:07:22,507
         - Fred: Um...
         - Here we go.

130
00:07:22,509 --> 00:07:27,045
    "Gold: Dollar, necklace,
         moon, paint."

131
00:07:28,147 --> 00:07:30,215
            (buzzer)

132
00:07:30,217 --> 00:07:32,350
           Incorrect.

133
00:07:32,352 --> 00:07:35,554
     120 volts, gold paint.

134
00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:36,721
           - (buzzer)
        - (James groans)

135
00:07:36,723 --> 00:07:41,460
   "Hard: Stone, head, bread,
             work."

136
00:07:41,861 --> 00:07:42,961
            (buzzer)

137
00:07:45,832 --> 00:07:47,866
           Incorrect.

138
00:07:47,868 --> 00:07:49,434
           135 volts.

139
00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:51,770
           - (buzzer)
           - (grunts)

140
00:07:57,310 --> 00:07:59,444
          (sighs) OK.

141
00:07:59,612 --> 00:08:04,850
   "Wet: Night, grass, duck,
            cloth."

142
00:08:05,351 --> 00:08:06,751
            (buzzer)

143
00:08:06,753 --> 00:08:10,789
Incorrect. 150 volts, wet duck.

144
00:08:11,624 --> 00:08:13,859
           - (buzzer)
           - (grunts)

145
00:08:13,861 --> 00:08:15,927
       <i> It really hurts.</i>

146
00:08:15,929 --> 00:08:18,063
              Mmm.

147
00:08:19,565 --> 00:08:21,333
    Stanley:<i> How do you know</i>
        <i> when a change,</i>

148
00:08:21,335 --> 00:08:23,502
  <i> a true and lasting change,</i>

149
00:08:23,504 --> 00:08:25,303
<i>is about to overtake your life?</i>

150
00:08:25,305 --> 00:08:27,572
 Fred: "...grass, man, girl..."

151
00:08:33,579 --> 00:08:35,847
    - Eighth floor, please.
          - The same.

152
00:08:48,361 --> 00:08:50,695
Are we going to the same party?

153
00:08:51,464 --> 00:08:53,031
           Probably.

154
00:08:53,033 --> 00:08:54,733
   You know Doris Eissenman?

155
00:08:54,735 --> 00:08:57,068
   Saul Harwood's invited me.

156
00:08:58,104 --> 00:08:59,538
              Ah.

157
00:08:59,540 --> 00:09:01,873
    I've never heard of him.

158
00:09:05,945 --> 00:09:07,779
   Shall we continue talking,
          or wait till

159
00:09:07,781 --> 00:09:10,415
  - we're properly introduced?
    - (elevator bell rings)

160
00:09:10,417 --> 00:09:12,751
      (door rattles open)

161
00:09:20,192 --> 00:09:22,160
      (indistinct chatter)

162
00:09:22,162 --> 00:09:24,796
      (piano music plays)

163
00:09:45,418 --> 00:09:46,585
        You're a dancer?

164
00:09:46,587 --> 00:09:49,955
           Oh, well,
 I studied, here and in Paris.

165
00:09:50,790 --> 00:09:52,958
   - I work in an office now.
           - Mmm-hm.

166
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,493
       - What about you?
         - I'm at Yale.

167
00:09:55,962 --> 00:09:59,631
 Limited dance skills, although
I did spend some time in Paris.

168
00:09:59,633 --> 00:10:02,467
           - (buzzer)
- What are you studying at Yale?

169
00:10:02,469 --> 00:10:04,836
       I teach, actually.
       Social Relations.

170
00:10:04,838 --> 00:10:07,906
Did you just give that guy there
       your phone number?

171
00:10:08,941 --> 00:10:11,910
   So if I wanted your number
     I can get it from him?

172
00:10:13,145 --> 00:10:15,280
  Social Relations. (giggles)

173
00:10:15,715 --> 00:10:18,316
     - What does that mean?
     - It's a combination.

174
00:10:18,318 --> 00:10:20,652
    Sociology, anthropology,
          psychology.

175
00:10:21,187 --> 00:10:24,723
   You know, basically covers
        everything from

176
00:10:24,725 --> 00:10:26,992
the way people talk in elevators
        to the study of

177
00:10:26,994 --> 00:10:29,561
   role- playing, conformity,
           authority.

178
00:10:29,563 --> 00:10:31,696
           - (buzzer)
       - Fred: Soft: Rug,

179
00:10:31,698 --> 00:10:35,100
      pillow, hair, grass.

180
00:10:36,402 --> 00:10:37,802
            (buzzer)

181
00:10:39,839 --> 00:10:42,173
  Incorrect. A hundred and...

182
00:10:43,442 --> 00:10:45,610
sixty-five volts, strong shock.

183
00:10:45,612 --> 00:10:48,847
           - (buzzer)
- James:<i> Ah! Let me out of here!</i>

184
00:10:48,849 --> 00:10:51,182
         <i> I told you,</i>
  <i> I have a heart condition.</i>

185
00:10:51,184 --> 00:10:54,219
    <i> I will not be part of</i>
   <i> the experiment anymore!</i>

186
00:10:54,221 --> 00:10:57,956
- He says he's not gonna go on.
  - Please continue, teacher.

187
00:10:58,691 --> 00:11:01,192
            He says
   he doesn't want to go on.

188
00:11:01,194 --> 00:11:04,963
   Well, whether the learner
 likes it or not, he must go on

189
00:11:04,965 --> 00:11:07,699
until he's learned all the pairs
           correctly.

190
00:11:07,701 --> 00:11:10,035
   Please continue, teacher.

191
00:11:12,138 --> 00:11:13,271
             Uh...

192
00:11:14,974 --> 00:11:18,176
(sighs) Calm down, concentrate.

193
00:11:19,712 --> 00:11:23,648
       "Sad: Face, music,

194
00:11:23,650 --> 00:11:26,751
         clown, girl."

195
00:11:27,286 --> 00:11:28,953
            (buzzer)

196
00:11:30,389 --> 00:11:31,556
           Incorrect.

197
00:11:31,558 --> 00:11:33,158
          - 180 volts.
           - (buzzer)

198
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,028
      James:<i> Ahh! Dammit!</i>
   <i> Let me out, let me out!</i>

199
00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:39,397
 Stanley:<i> He went all the way.</i>
       <i> Most of them do.</i>

200
00:11:41,067 --> 00:11:42,934
            "Sharp.

201
00:11:42,936 --> 00:11:45,270
  Axe, needle, stick, blade."

202
00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:49,574
     Williams: No response
        from the learner

203
00:11:49,576 --> 00:11:51,609
     must be interpreted as
        a wrong answer.

204
00:11:51,611 --> 00:11:52,977
            (scoffs)

205
00:11:53,245 --> 00:11:57,248
    Stanley:<i> Still laughing,</i>
<i> trying to hide face with hand.</i>

206
00:11:58,851 --> 00:12:01,252
     Something's happening
     to that man in there.

207
00:12:01,254 --> 00:12:03,755
  Can you please go check that
        everything's OK?

208
00:12:03,757 --> 00:12:05,557
       Williams: Not once
         we've started.

209
00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:07,425
   Please continue, teacher.

210
00:12:07,427 --> 00:12:09,360
         So you accept
      all responsibility?

211
00:12:09,362 --> 00:12:12,330
 Williams: The responsibility's
         mine, correct.

212
00:12:12,332 --> 00:12:14,466
       Continue, please.

213
00:12:16,702 --> 00:12:20,171
         Teacher: "Wet:
  Night, grass, dark, cloth."

214
00:12:21,173 --> 00:12:24,409
    Stanley:<i> Clenching fist,</i>
    <i> pushing it onto table.</i>

215
00:12:25,411 --> 00:12:27,746
           - (buzzer)
     - (panicked laughter)

216
00:12:30,616 --> 00:12:33,785
- How are you holding up, Alan?
 - Teacher: "Dollar: Necklace,

217
00:12:33,787 --> 00:12:37,288
    moon, paint." 375 volts.

218
00:12:37,290 --> 00:12:39,491
    Dangerous, severe shock.

219
00:12:39,493 --> 00:12:40,725
         (James groans)

220
00:12:40,727 --> 00:12:45,697
(recording)<i> Let me out of here,</i>
<i>let me out. Get me out of here.</i>

221
00:12:45,699 --> 00:12:48,533
  <i> You can't hold me in here.</i>
         <i> Get me out.</i>

222
00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:06,584
        - What is this?
  - I just liked the picture.

223
00:13:06,586 --> 00:13:10,221
    The colors... Don't you?

224
00:13:10,223 --> 00:13:12,223
             Yeah.

225
00:13:12,225 --> 00:13:14,359
      Take it. It's yours.

226
00:13:16,929 --> 00:13:19,264
  Why don't you mail it to me?

227
00:13:23,702 --> 00:13:26,371
   Or we could leave it here
      and you can move in?

228
00:13:28,774 --> 00:13:31,109
 That'd be easier, wouldn't it?

229
00:13:38,484 --> 00:13:43,154
   "Wet: Night, grass, duck,

230
00:13:43,156 --> 00:13:45,290
            cloth."

231
00:13:50,229 --> 00:13:52,397
          "Wet duck."

232
00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:54,265
           435 volts.

233
00:13:54,267 --> 00:13:55,500
            (buzzer)

234
00:13:56,402 --> 00:13:57,602
              Huh.

235
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,473
              Ohh.

236
00:14:02,475 --> 00:14:03,875
            OK, um,

237
00:14:03,877 --> 00:14:07,278
    "Brave: Woman, soldier,

238
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,414
          dog, horse."

239
00:14:14,587 --> 00:14:17,222
         "Brave woman."

240
00:14:17,224 --> 00:14:19,357
           450 volts.

241
00:14:22,294 --> 00:14:26,598
         OK, what now?
  I'm at the end at 450 volts.

242
00:14:27,066 --> 00:14:29,434
Williams: Continue, please.

243
00:14:29,436 --> 00:14:31,369
     The last switch again.

244
00:14:31,371 --> 00:14:34,138
          Yeah, but...
 but he could be dead in there.

245
00:14:34,140 --> 00:14:36,875
    Williams: The experiment
  requires that you continue.

246
00:14:36,877 --> 00:14:38,743
         Go on, please.

247
00:14:38,745 --> 00:14:40,912
         And his health
     doesn't mean anything?

248
00:14:40,914 --> 00:14:44,015
  Whether the learner likes it
   or not, we must continue.

249
00:14:44,017 --> 00:14:46,484
        I'm sorry, look,
 I don't mean to be rude, sir,

250
00:14:46,486 --> 00:14:49,087
     but I think you should
   go look in on him. I mean,

251
00:14:49,089 --> 00:14:52,257
all you have to do is look in on
   him. Look into that door.

252
00:14:52,259 --> 00:14:53,858
         'Cause I'm not
       getting any noise,

253
00:14:53,860 --> 00:14:55,894
        I'm not getting
         no sound here.

254
00:14:55,896 --> 00:14:58,062
  Williams: We must continue.

255
00:14:58,064 --> 00:15:01,366
         Go on, please,
   the next word is "white".

256
00:15:10,609 --> 00:15:12,944
            (sighs)

257
00:15:18,751 --> 00:15:22,687
 Teacher: "White: Cloud, horse,

258
00:15:23,455 --> 00:15:25,590
         rock, house."

259
00:15:26,825 --> 00:15:28,860
          White horse.

260
00:15:28,862 --> 00:15:30,595
        450 volts again.

261
00:15:30,597 --> 00:15:32,030
            (buzzer)

262
00:15:35,601 --> 00:15:37,001
             "Fair.

263
00:15:37,803 --> 00:15:40,672
    Price, rule, skin, sky."

264
00:15:42,474 --> 00:15:43,641
            (coughs)

265
00:15:44,576 --> 00:15:47,278
       Wrong. 450 again.

266
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:48,680
            (buzzer)

267
00:15:48,682 --> 00:15:52,650
     All right, thank you.
We are done with the experiment.

268
00:15:52,652 --> 00:15:53,785
          Teacher: OK.

269
00:15:53,919 --> 00:15:55,520
    Williams: I'm just going
   to speak with the learner.

270
00:15:55,522 --> 00:15:58,523
      I think he might be
a little upset. In the meantime,

271
00:15:58,525 --> 00:16:00,925
    my assistant would like
  to ask you a few questions,

272
00:16:00,927 --> 00:16:04,429
      - if you don't mind?
        - Yeah, surely.

273
00:16:04,431 --> 00:16:06,497
     Williams: Dr. Milgram?

274
00:16:06,499 --> 00:16:08,633
         How do you do?

275
00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:14,339
     Uh, first I'd like...
         No, thank you.

276
00:16:14,907 --> 00:16:16,975
      I'd like to ask you
        some questions.

277
00:16:16,977 --> 00:16:18,476
          Yes, surely.

278
00:16:22,915 --> 00:16:24,282
        (clears throat)

279
00:16:24,284 --> 00:16:28,019
   Uh, why did you give him,
   the man in the other room,

280
00:16:28,021 --> 00:16:30,388
    the learner, the shocks?

281
00:16:30,390 --> 00:16:33,958
    Well, as you could see,
    I wanted to stop 'cause

282
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,861
 each time you gave him a shock
       the guy hollered.

283
00:16:36,863 --> 00:16:39,197
       Did it sound as if
        he was in pain?

284
00:16:40,866 --> 00:16:42,633
             Yeah.

285
00:16:42,635 --> 00:16:45,636
    Did he say he wanted you
    to stop the experiment?

286
00:16:45,638 --> 00:16:47,305
              Yes.

287
00:16:47,307 --> 00:16:50,108
          Did he have
a right to stop the experiment?

288
00:16:51,577 --> 00:16:53,845
         I don't know.

289
00:16:53,847 --> 00:16:55,980
      Why didn't you stop,
         at that point,

290
00:16:55,982 --> 00:16:58,716
  - when he asked you to stop?
      - Why didn't I stop?

291
00:16:58,718 --> 00:17:00,618
            - Mm-hm.
       - Well, 'cause...

292
00:17:00,620 --> 00:17:02,353
 'Cause he told me to continue.

293
00:17:02,355 --> 00:17:05,590
 Why did you listen to that man
    and not the man in pain?

294
00:17:06,825 --> 00:17:08,559
           (exhales)

295
00:17:10,462 --> 00:17:14,165
Well, 'cause... 'cause I thought
 the experiment depended on me.

296
00:17:14,167 --> 00:17:17,301
 - And nobody told me to stop.
    - He asked you to stop.

297
00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:21,239
      That... That's true,
       but he's the, um,

298
00:17:22,508 --> 00:17:25,376
     you know, the subject,
         shall we say?

299
00:17:25,378 --> 00:17:27,745
         Who was the...

300
00:17:27,747 --> 00:17:29,380
  Who bore the responsibility

301
00:17:29,382 --> 00:17:32,350
   for the fact this man was
         being shocked?

302
00:17:36,455 --> 00:17:38,122
         I don't know.

303
00:17:41,927 --> 00:17:45,363
  Could you fill out items six
through 18 on the questionnaire

304
00:17:45,365 --> 00:17:48,599
    in front of you, please?
         Here's a pen.

305
00:17:55,674 --> 00:17:57,475
  Ah, I get a little skittish.

306
00:17:57,477 --> 00:17:59,911
         Uh... nervous.

307
00:18:00,879 --> 00:18:03,514
  Williams: As I explained to
 Mr. Wallace in the other room,

308
00:18:03,516 --> 00:18:06,617
this shock generator's actually
     used for small animals

309
00:18:06,619 --> 00:18:10,555
  for laboratory experiments.
   Mice, rats, and so forth.

310
00:18:11,523 --> 00:18:14,292
     The visual designation
    is actually misleading.

311
00:18:14,294 --> 00:18:16,828
This shock generator's actually
been adjusted so that the shocks

312
00:18:16,830 --> 00:18:20,565
  were just slightly stronger
than the shock you experienced.

313
00:18:20,567 --> 00:18:22,967
       Are you all right?

314
00:18:22,969 --> 00:18:25,103
   Yeah, I'm fine, you know.

315
00:18:25,637 --> 00:18:28,706
       No hard feelings.
    I probably would've done

316
00:18:28,708 --> 00:18:31,008
     the same thing myself.

317
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:32,410
            <i> Ciao.</i>

318
00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:38,483
       Each subject has a
reconciliation with the learner.

319
00:18:38,485 --> 00:18:40,418
       We ask the subject
     to maintain a secrecy

320
00:18:40,420 --> 00:18:43,254
    so that future recruits
       aren't tipped off.

321
00:18:43,256 --> 00:18:45,556
         Down the line
      we get more candid.

322
00:18:46,458 --> 00:18:48,059
        The first thing
      I wanna tell you is

323
00:18:48,061 --> 00:18:50,461
   the man in the other room
     wasn't being shocked.

324
00:18:50,463 --> 00:18:53,798
    The only real shock was
the one that you felt early on.

325
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,834
   We're really interested in
     studying your reaction

326
00:18:56,836 --> 00:19:00,304
  to having to inflict pain on
    someone you don't know.

327
00:19:00,306 --> 00:19:03,174
     The experiment's about
        obeying orders.

328
00:19:03,709 --> 00:19:06,711
   The man in the other room
    works with us as a team.

329
00:19:06,713 --> 00:19:08,513
   Jim, you can come out now.

330
00:19:08,515 --> 00:19:11,716
He wasn't really being shocked,
      he's perfectly fine.

331
00:19:11,718 --> 00:19:13,351
 We weren't trying to fool you,

332
00:19:13,353 --> 00:19:16,220
     we're just interested
  in studying your reactions.

333
00:19:16,222 --> 00:19:18,556
    - Teacher: Man, you dog.
         - (Jim laughs)

334
00:19:19,158 --> 00:19:21,626
    I... I was worried sick.
       I thought I was--

335
00:19:21,628 --> 00:19:24,996
  You're a good fella. No hard
  feelings, no hard feelings.

336
00:19:25,697 --> 00:19:27,365
        But you thought
 you were really shocking him.

337
00:19:27,367 --> 00:19:29,367
  When he wasn't making noise
            anymore,

338
00:19:29,369 --> 00:19:32,370
   that's when I was worried.
 I didn't wanna go on with it.

339
00:19:32,372 --> 00:19:34,572
 - Stanley: But you did go on.
 - Yeah, but I did not want to.

340
00:19:34,574 --> 00:19:37,542
      You saw how it was,
     how I was fighting it.

341
00:19:38,243 --> 00:19:41,412
    Well, you understand why
   we had to do it this way.

342
00:19:41,414 --> 00:19:45,716
We wanted to get true reactions
     from people, you see.

343
00:19:45,718 --> 00:19:49,287
  You'll receive a copy of the
report when the project's over.

344
00:19:49,289 --> 00:19:51,589
 Until then, we ask you not to
         say anything.

345
00:19:51,591 --> 00:19:53,191
         You may end up
       talking to someone

346
00:19:53,193 --> 00:19:55,960
who is a potential participant.

347
00:19:56,695 --> 00:20:00,731
  How do you feel about having
 come down here and done this,

348
00:20:00,733 --> 00:20:02,500
       now that you know?

349
00:20:02,502 --> 00:20:04,402
           I mean...

350
00:20:04,404 --> 00:20:07,638
   Now that I know the truth,
         I don't mind.

351
00:20:08,373 --> 00:20:10,474
      Thank you very much
        for coming down.

352
00:20:10,476 --> 00:20:13,344
 We certainly do appreciate you
      giving us your time.

353
00:20:13,346 --> 00:20:16,380
         - Yeah, yeah.
 - Alan here will help you out.

354
00:20:16,382 --> 00:20:19,350
We think you'll find the report
       very interesting.

355
00:20:19,352 --> 00:20:22,553
    Thanks. Yeah, thank you.

356
00:20:27,226 --> 00:20:28,926
           (sighing)

357
00:20:31,463 --> 00:20:35,132
      I still get nervous.
      You're cool as ice.

358
00:20:35,834 --> 00:20:38,536
    Maybe all those years of
      teaching high school

359
00:20:38,538 --> 00:20:41,172
    - gives you sort of a--
       - Jim: Poker face?

360
00:20:41,174 --> 00:20:43,808
  Discipline, I was thinking.

361
00:20:43,810 --> 00:20:46,077
   You're like a gravedigger.

362
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:48,412
       Williams: I think
      you mean undertaker.

363
00:20:48,414 --> 00:20:52,283
The domino effect starts to kick
   in, in the teacher's mind,

364
00:20:52,285 --> 00:20:54,385
   once he assumes the role.

365
00:20:55,354 --> 00:20:58,422
    Get some women in here.
   Get my wife in this seat,

366
00:20:58,424 --> 00:21:01,292
      we've got nine kids,
        the first squawk

367
00:21:01,294 --> 00:21:03,027
 she'd stop the whole shebang.

368
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:04,895
           Nine kids.
    Are you sure about that?

369
00:21:04,897 --> 00:21:09,166
Oh, yeah. I have enough saved up
to give 'em each a pair of socks

370
00:21:09,168 --> 00:21:11,035
  if the electricity gets me.

371
00:21:11,037 --> 00:21:14,105
    You're a brave man, Jim.
 All right, next subject's due.

372
00:21:14,107 --> 00:21:15,806
      I should get going.

373
00:21:20,579 --> 00:21:23,914
   ¶<i> Some enchanted evening</i> ¶

374
00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:26,884
  ¶<i> You will meet a stranger</i> ¶

375
00:21:30,622 --> 00:21:32,957
 I was born in the Bronx, 1933.

376
00:21:33,859 --> 00:21:36,127
   My father's from Hungary,
       my mother Romania,

377
00:21:36,129 --> 00:21:39,764
  Jewish immigrants. It was a
 matter of chance they arrived

378
00:21:39,766 --> 00:21:42,667
   in the US as children and
  managed to raise a family in

379
00:21:42,669 --> 00:21:45,870
New York instead of being swept
up into the extermination camps

380
00:21:45,872 --> 00:21:48,806
and murdered by the Nazis, like
  millions of others like them

381
00:21:48,808 --> 00:21:50,074
       in Eastern Europe.

382
00:21:51,176 --> 00:21:52,510
  That's really what's behind

383
00:21:52,512 --> 00:21:56,614
   the obedience experiments.
   The inkling I was chasing,

384
00:21:57,549 --> 00:21:59,450
  the thing that troubled me.

385
00:22:02,487 --> 00:22:05,956
 How do civilized human beings
          participate

386
00:22:05,958 --> 00:22:08,192
 in destructive, inhumane acts?

387
00:22:08,194 --> 00:22:12,730
How was genocide implemented so
systematically, so efficiently?

388
00:22:12,732 --> 00:22:15,099
And how did the perpetrators of
         these murders

389
00:22:15,101 --> 00:22:16,834
     live with themselves?

390
00:22:29,881 --> 00:22:32,983
     My daughter, Michele,
       a precocious child

391
00:22:32,985 --> 00:22:35,686
 who at this point in the story
     hasn't yet been born,

392
00:22:35,688 --> 00:22:38,723
used to tell the kids at school:
   "My dad's a psychologist,

393
00:22:38,725 --> 00:22:41,659
 but not the kind who talks to
       people lying down.

394
00:22:41,661 --> 00:22:44,028
      He's an experimental
         psychologist.

395
00:22:45,263 --> 00:22:47,598
     He does experiments."

396
00:22:51,937 --> 00:22:54,271
 First let's determine which of
     you will be "learner"

397
00:22:54,273 --> 00:22:56,707
  and which will be "teacher."

398
00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:02,813
           "Teacher."

399
00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:05,750
      They both say that.
    And no one's caught on?

400
00:23:05,752 --> 00:23:08,386
         - Not a soul.
  - Not the corporate manager,

401
00:23:08,388 --> 00:23:11,255
    the banker, the plumber,
      the Good Humor man.

402
00:23:11,257 --> 00:23:13,691
       The Good Humor man
     was actually vicious.

403
00:23:13,693 --> 00:23:16,794
  Crude mesomorph of obviously
     limited intelligence.

404
00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:20,297
The script has kind of momentum.
     It carries them along.

405
00:23:20,299 --> 00:23:22,500
          - Men only?
         - Every hour.

406
00:23:22,502 --> 00:23:25,169
   It's getting to be a blur,
        really. (laughs)

407
00:23:25,171 --> 00:23:28,472
  So you lead them both, both
  the teacher and the learner,

408
00:23:28,474 --> 00:23:32,243
into the, uh... electric chair?

409
00:23:32,245 --> 00:23:33,944
           (laughing)

410
00:23:33,946 --> 00:23:35,579
  Well, we don't call it that,

411
00:23:35,581 --> 00:23:39,417
 but, yes, if you'll follow me
  into the next room, please?

412
00:23:44,823 --> 00:23:46,390
        Here's my home.

413
00:23:46,392 --> 00:23:48,959
  I think I'd go nuts in this
      little room all day.

414
00:23:48,961 --> 00:23:52,463
- Well, they keep me busy. Agh!
          - (laughing)

415
00:23:52,465 --> 00:23:54,131
        Actually, I have
       a heart condition.

416
00:23:54,133 --> 00:23:55,232
            Really?

417
00:23:55,234 --> 00:23:57,935
 It does give you authenticity,
     I think, in the part.

418
00:23:57,937 --> 00:24:01,205
 But I think I'm a better actor
     than I am accountant.

419
00:24:01,207 --> 00:24:02,540
      It's nearly time for
         the next one.

420
00:24:02,542 --> 00:24:06,744
             - Oh.
    - Is somebody in there?

421
00:24:06,746 --> 00:24:08,579
          Maybe Alan.

422
00:24:08,581 --> 00:24:10,915
      - Shall we join him?
            - Sure.

423
00:24:13,718 --> 00:24:15,986
   To give you, the teacher,
   an idea of how much shock

424
00:24:15,988 --> 00:24:18,189
 the learner will be receiving,
    we think it's only fair

425
00:24:18,191 --> 00:24:21,425
   you receive a sample shock
  yourself. Is that all right?

426
00:24:21,427 --> 00:24:23,561
         - Fair enough.
   - Give me your right arm.

427
00:24:23,563 --> 00:24:25,729
  This is the only real shock,
             right?

428
00:24:25,731 --> 00:24:27,097
             Mm-hm.

429
00:24:27,099 --> 00:24:28,899
       Have you done it?

430
00:24:28,901 --> 00:24:31,168
    Been shocked like that,
           literally?

431
00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:33,504
            - Yeah.
      - It's not pleasant.

432
00:24:34,706 --> 00:24:36,607
           - (buzzer)
       - (teacher groans)

433
00:24:36,609 --> 00:24:38,409
  Williams: Now if you'll just
       use the scale here

434
00:24:38,411 --> 00:24:40,211
       to estimate for me
 the amount of volts you think

435
00:24:40,213 --> 00:24:42,613
        you've received
      in the sample shock.

436
00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:47,751
  - I don't know. You tell me.
   - That was only 45 volts.

437
00:24:47,753 --> 00:24:49,920
So go ahead and begin the test.

438
00:24:49,922 --> 00:24:52,723
  He doesn't have a microphone
      but he can hear you.

439
00:24:52,725 --> 00:24:54,825
Just speak into the microphone.

440
00:24:54,827 --> 00:24:57,394
    The rooms are partially
          soundproof.

441
00:24:57,396 --> 00:24:59,730
    Are you ready, learner?

442
00:25:00,632 --> 00:25:03,667
    Stanley:<i> Continues with</i>
     <i> robotic impassivity,</i>

443
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:05,936
  <i> oblivious to experimenter.</i>

444
00:25:05,938 --> 00:25:08,572
 <i> Seems to derive no pleasure</i>
     <i> from the act itself.</i>

445
00:25:08,574 --> 00:25:11,809
           - (buzzer)
          - Incorrect.

446
00:25:13,044 --> 00:25:14,712
   The correct answer is box.

447
00:25:14,714 --> 00:25:17,748
  Stanley:<i> Curt and officious</i>
    <i> when saying "Correct".</i>

448
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:19,884
           75 volts.

449
00:25:19,886 --> 00:25:22,453
           - (buzzer)
  <i> -</i> Jim:<i> Let me out of here!</i>

450
00:25:22,455 --> 00:25:25,489
       Stanley:<i> Each time</i>
  <i> he administrates a shock,</i>

451
00:25:25,491 --> 00:25:27,825
       <i> lips drawn back,</i>
       <i> bares his teeth.</i>

452
00:25:30,462 --> 00:25:32,830
      "Sweet: Candy, girl,

453
00:25:32,832 --> 00:25:34,298
        taste, pickle."

454
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:35,766
            (buzzer)

455
00:25:35,768 --> 00:25:39,336
Wrong. "Sweet taste." 120 volts.

456
00:25:39,338 --> 00:25:41,539
           - (buzzer)
         - (Jim groans)

457
00:25:41,541 --> 00:25:43,874
    Jim:<i> Let me out of here!</i>

458
00:25:45,677 --> 00:25:47,745
      Stanley:<i> Looks sadly</i>
     <i> at the experimenter</i>

459
00:25:47,747 --> 00:25:50,080
    <i> and continues reading</i>
         <i> word pairs.</i>

460
00:25:51,950 --> 00:25:53,217
            (buzzer)

461
00:25:54,953 --> 00:25:57,254
      Wrong. "True story".

462
00:25:57,256 --> 00:25:58,856
           135 volts.

463
00:25:58,858 --> 00:26:01,425
           - (buzzer)
        <i> -</i> (Jim groans)

464
00:26:01,427 --> 00:26:02,826
    Teacher: "Slow, walk..."

465
00:26:02,828 --> 00:26:04,461
      Stanley:<i> Afterwards,</i>
         <i> if a learner</i>

466
00:26:04,463 --> 00:26:06,163
   <i> who says he agreed to it</i>

467
00:26:06,165 --> 00:26:08,799
  <i> and therefore must accept</i>
       <i> responsibility.</i>

468
00:26:08,801 --> 00:26:13,137
        Teacher: Wrong.
    "Slow music." 150 volts.

469
00:26:13,672 --> 00:26:16,307
           - (buzzer)
   - Jim:<i> Let me out of here!</i>

470
00:26:16,309 --> 00:26:18,642
   <i> I can't stand the pain.</i>

471
00:26:19,911 --> 00:26:22,246
            The man,
  he seems to be getting hurt.

472
00:26:22,981 --> 00:26:25,849
      Williams: There's no
    permanent tissue damage.

473
00:26:25,851 --> 00:26:27,885
        Yes, but I know
     what shocks do to you.

474
00:26:27,887 --> 00:26:30,187
  I'm an electrical engineer,

475
00:26:30,189 --> 00:26:32,323
     and I have had shocks.

476
00:26:33,291 --> 00:26:35,225
 You get real shook up by them,

477
00:26:35,961 --> 00:26:38,929
     especially if you know
    the next one is coming.

478
00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:41,465
           I'm sorry.

479
00:26:41,866 --> 00:26:44,034
   Williams: It's absolutely
essential that you do continue.

480
00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:48,505
Well, I won't, not with the man
     screaming to get out.

481
00:26:48,507 --> 00:26:50,841
       Williams: You have
        no other choice.

482
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,615
   Why don't I have a choice?

483
00:26:58,783 --> 00:27:01,251
I came here on my own free will.

484
00:27:01,253 --> 00:27:03,921
     I thought I could help
     in a research project.

485
00:27:03,923 --> 00:27:08,892
But if I have to hurt somebody,
     if I was in his place,

486
00:27:10,462 --> 00:27:12,896
     no, I can't continue.

487
00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:18,702
   I've probably gone too far
    already. I'm very sorry.

488
00:27:24,609 --> 00:27:26,910
          (door shuts)

489
00:27:27,445 --> 00:27:29,513
        I could've wept.

490
00:27:29,515 --> 00:27:32,049
     I mean he looked like
     he wanted to slug me.

491
00:27:32,684 --> 00:27:35,486
     Out of gratitude, you
  do understand, I mean wept.

492
00:27:35,488 --> 00:27:37,521
   Because all day we've been

493
00:27:37,523 --> 00:27:39,957
  getting nothing but "wrong,"
             zzzt.

494
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:45,896
You do realize I have to sit and
 listen to you scream all day.

495
00:27:45,898 --> 00:27:49,199
   Well, so do I. (chuckles)

496
00:27:49,201 --> 00:27:51,535
      He was what, Danish?

497
00:27:51,537 --> 00:27:53,170
        Dutch, actually.

498
00:27:53,172 --> 00:27:56,106
    Right, but it wasn't his
  nationality that caused him

499
00:27:56,108 --> 00:27:59,176
  to stop, it was the fact he
    worked with electricity.

500
00:27:59,178 --> 00:28:00,444
              Hmm.

501
00:28:00,446 --> 00:28:03,647
         They all seem
    to wanna impress you...

502
00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:05,983
       - for some reason.
            - Mm-hm.

503
00:28:06,918 --> 00:28:08,852
            But why?

504
00:28:09,154 --> 00:28:11,755
        Why do so many,
    the vast majority,

505
00:28:11,757 --> 00:28:14,191
    push all the way through
      to the final switch?

506
00:28:14,193 --> 00:28:18,829
 Why is the Dutchman's defiance
the anomaly instead of the norm?

507
00:28:18,831 --> 00:28:21,965
   All the psychiatrists and
   psychologists I consulted

508
00:28:21,967 --> 00:28:24,835
were convinced we'd have trouble
    finding a single person

509
00:28:24,837 --> 00:28:27,171
 that'd go all the way through
   to the end. I'd have been

510
00:28:27,173 --> 00:28:29,707
 better off consulting the guy
       from Pepe's Pizza.

511
00:28:29,709 --> 00:28:31,041
       Oh, you mean Pepe?

512
00:28:31,043 --> 00:28:33,077
           Williams:
  I think his name is Carmine.

513
00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:35,846
Stanley: Well, you get my point.
    The butcher, the baker,

514
00:28:35,848 --> 00:28:37,848
     the candlestick maker.

515
00:28:37,850 --> 00:28:42,419
      I'd like to try it,
        the test shock.

516
00:28:43,655 --> 00:28:46,156
        I just wanna...
    know what it feels like.

517
00:28:46,624 --> 00:28:48,759
            - Sasha.
          - (laughing)

518
00:28:48,761 --> 00:28:52,663
 I don't even think about that,
     and I've been in there

519
00:28:52,665 --> 00:28:55,466
       supposedly getting
     zapped to the maximum.

520
00:29:00,271 --> 00:29:02,206
  This really isn't necessary.

521
00:29:02,208 --> 00:29:04,842
Well, yeah, but it's not harmful
            either.

522
00:29:04,844 --> 00:29:07,377
      I mean I just wanna
     understand it better.

523
00:29:08,246 --> 00:29:09,747
              OK.

524
00:29:13,451 --> 00:29:15,786
           Other arm.

525
00:29:22,694 --> 00:29:24,361
            (buzzer)

526
00:29:30,034 --> 00:29:32,369
          - Thank you.
       - You're welcome.

527
00:29:38,877 --> 00:29:41,011
      Stanley:<i> I designed</i>
   <i> a series of variations,</i>

528
00:29:41,013 --> 00:29:43,480
   <i> 25 in all, and continued</i>
       <i> the experiments</i>

529
00:29:43,482 --> 00:29:45,482
 <i> over the next two semesters.</i>

530
00:29:46,417 --> 00:29:48,986
 <i> We adjust the script so that</i>
<i>the learner bangs on the wall...</i>

531
00:29:48,988 --> 00:29:51,321
       - (loud thudding)
    <i> - ...but says nothing.</i>

532
00:29:53,925 --> 00:29:56,226
     <i> We asked the teacher</i>
     <i> to physically press</i>

533
00:29:56,228 --> 00:29:58,228
      <i> the learner's hand</i>
      <i> on a copper plate,</i>

534
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:59,763
         <i> forcing him</i>
    <i> to receive the shock.</i>

535
00:29:59,765 --> 00:30:02,800
            - House.
      - Wrong. 135 volts.

536
00:30:02,802 --> 00:30:03,934
           - (buzzer)
           - (groans)

537
00:30:03,936 --> 00:30:09,473
 <i> in Bridgeport, to deduct the</i>
<i> potential intimidation factor</i>

538
00:30:09,475 --> 00:30:14,845
 <i> of Ivy League prestige. And,</i>
<i>back at Yale, we include women.</i>

539
00:30:16,948 --> 00:30:18,882
     What did you just do?

540
00:30:19,818 --> 00:30:22,119
       Uh, he said: "Ow."

541
00:30:22,121 --> 00:30:24,454
 Did you turn off the machine?

542
00:30:26,124 --> 00:30:30,093
I... I thought that if it seemed
            like I,

543
00:30:30,962 --> 00:30:33,297
       you know, turn...

544
00:30:40,638 --> 00:30:43,340
  (sighs) OK. (clears throat)
           "Short..."

545
00:30:43,342 --> 00:30:45,475
     Williams: The machine?

546
00:30:49,347 --> 00:30:51,048
   Please continue, teacher.

547
00:30:51,050 --> 00:30:52,382
            (click)

548
00:30:54,152 --> 00:30:58,355
  OK, "Short: Sentence, movie,

549
00:30:58,357 --> 00:31:00,591
         time, skirt."

550
00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:04,394
            (buzzer)

551
00:31:05,063 --> 00:31:07,965
    I'm sorry, that's wrong.
       It's "short time".

552
00:31:09,868 --> 00:31:12,202
           - (buzzer)
         - (Jim groans)

553
00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:19,743
       Stanley:<i> In nearly</i>
         <i> every case,</i>

554
00:31:19,745 --> 00:31:21,979
    <i> the essential results</i>
        <i> are the same.</i>

555
00:31:21,981 --> 00:31:24,915
 <i> They hesitate, sigh, tremble</i>
          <i> and groan,</i>

556
00:31:24,917 --> 00:31:27,918
 <i> but they advance to the last</i>
      <i> switch, 450 volts,</i>

557
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,254
  <i> "Danger Severe Shock XXX",</i>

558
00:31:30,256 --> 00:31:32,522
       <i> because they're</i>
      <i> politely told to.</i>

559
00:31:35,126 --> 00:31:38,095
        The results are
   terrifying and depressing.

560
00:31:38,097 --> 00:31:40,297
 They suggest that the kind of
       character produced

561
00:31:40,299 --> 00:31:43,267
      in American society
      can't be counted on

562
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:46,203
 to insulate its citizens from
         brutality and

563
00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:50,274
 inhumane treatment in response
   to a malevolent authority.

564
00:31:52,777 --> 00:31:56,546
      Milgram? Milgram is
    Hebrew for pomegranate.

565
00:31:56,548 --> 00:31:58,282
     Is that what you mean?
  it's one of the seven fruits

566
00:31:58,284 --> 00:32:01,184
        - of the Bible.
  - You're Jewish, same as me.

567
00:32:02,253 --> 00:32:04,288
        You seem upset.
      Am I upsetting you?

568
00:32:04,290 --> 00:32:06,823
      I have office hours.
  You can make an appointment.

569
00:32:06,825 --> 00:32:08,759
 Huh? You don't like surprises.

570
00:32:08,761 --> 00:32:12,195
  You know, I've been thinking
  about the experiment a lot.

571
00:32:12,197 --> 00:32:15,299
   It really rattled my wife
  about what it said about me.

572
00:32:15,301 --> 00:32:17,167
         If she was me,
       she liked to think

573
00:32:17,169 --> 00:32:19,269
    she wouldn't have pulled
          the switch.

574
00:32:19,271 --> 00:32:21,638
      - But you know what?
            - What?

575
00:32:22,173 --> 00:32:24,274
     You never know. That's
  the thing, how can you know.

576
00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:26,343
      - You can't, right?
        - No, you can't.

577
00:32:26,345 --> 00:32:29,646
    If it's any consolation,
   a great many participants

578
00:32:29,648 --> 00:32:31,048
were prone to nervous laughter,

579
00:32:31,050 --> 00:32:34,651
but my wife actually is waiting
   for me at home for dinner,

580
00:32:34,653 --> 00:32:36,853
            - so...
     - Are you inviting me?

581
00:32:36,855 --> 00:32:40,290
    No. Make an appointment.

582
00:32:44,295 --> 00:32:46,763
   With leftover grant money
   we film the last two days

583
00:32:46,765 --> 00:32:50,434
       of the experiment,
     May 26 and 27th, 1962.

584
00:32:51,102 --> 00:32:54,638
Four days later, Adolf Eichmann
   is executed in Jerusalem.

585
00:32:58,042 --> 00:33:00,544
    <i> Eichmann, architect of</i>
        <i> the Holocaust,</i>

586
00:33:00,546 --> 00:33:04,281
<i>responsible for the deportation</i>
<i>and murder of millions of Jews,</i>

587
00:33:04,283 --> 00:33:07,084
  <i> escaped to Argentina after</i>
        <i> World War II.</i>

588
00:33:08,686 --> 00:33:12,923
<i> He was living with his family</i>
<i>under the name Ricardo Klement,</i>

589
00:33:12,925 --> 00:33:15,258
<i> an employee of Mercedes-Benz,</i>

590
00:33:15,260 --> 00:33:18,128
  <i> when Israeli Mossad agents</i>
     <i> captured him in 1960</i>

591
00:33:18,130 --> 00:33:20,497
  <i> and brought him to trial.</i>

592
00:33:20,499 --> 00:33:22,699
 Woman: (on TV)<i> ...to completed</i>
      <i> the translations,</i>

593
00:33:22,701 --> 00:33:25,168
<i> I beg to submit a translation</i>

594
00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:28,472
<i> into the German of our number,</i>
             <i> 887.</i>

595
00:33:28,474 --> 00:33:30,741
    Stanley:<i> Eichmann didn't</i>
       <i> deny his crimes,</i>

596
00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:33,810
<i> showed no trace of guilt</i>
         <i> or remorse.</i>

597
00:33:34,445 --> 00:33:37,014
         <i> Said he was</i>
    <i> merely a transmitter.</i>

598
00:33:37,016 --> 00:33:39,182
    <i> "I never did anything</i>
        <i> great or small</i>

599
00:33:39,184 --> 00:33:43,487
 <i> without express instructions</i>
     <i> from my superiors."</i>

600
00:33:49,627 --> 00:33:53,864
  <i> The cradle rocks above an</i>
<i>abyss and common sense tells us</i>

601
00:33:53,866 --> 00:33:57,801
  <i> that our existence is but</i>
<i> a brief crack of light between</i>

602
00:33:57,803 --> 00:34:00,137
 <i> two eternities of darkness.</i>

603
00:34:07,645 --> 00:34:10,380
      Let me out of here!
    Hey, that really hurts!

604
00:34:10,382 --> 00:34:12,516
          I told you,
   I have a heart condition!

605
00:34:12,518 --> 00:34:15,118
        I will not be in
    this experiment anymore!

606
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,287
        Ow! Let me out.

607
00:34:17,289 --> 00:34:19,423
 Let me outta here! Let me out!

608
00:34:19,425 --> 00:34:23,226
         (high-pitched)
  Let... me... out... of here.

609
00:34:23,861 --> 00:34:28,365
 <i> ¶ I will no longer be here ¶</i>

610
00:34:31,569 --> 00:34:34,304
       Ah, hey, Stanley,
     a nice day to wrap up

611
00:34:34,306 --> 00:34:37,607
- the new obedience experiment.
         - Yeah, yeah.

612
00:34:39,677 --> 00:34:41,144
              Hmm.

613
00:34:43,314 --> 00:34:47,350
 I should tell you about Asch.
        Solomon E. Asch.

614
00:34:47,352 --> 00:34:50,787
  If you ever saw my thesis at
 Harvard, and I worked for him,

615
00:34:50,789 --> 00:34:52,489
   diligently and miserably,

616
00:34:52,491 --> 00:34:55,625
 at the Institute for Advanced
      Study at Princeton.

617
00:34:56,561 --> 00:34:59,596
    Asch did the things with
       the lines, right?

618
00:34:59,598 --> 00:35:05,168
The study you are taking part in
 today involves the perception

619
00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:07,637
    of the lengths of lines.

620
00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:10,974
   As you can see, there are
       a number of cards,

621
00:35:10,976 --> 00:35:14,444
   and on each card there are
         several lines.

622
00:35:14,712 --> 00:35:16,880
Your task is a very simple one.

623
00:35:16,882 --> 00:35:20,383
 You're to look at the line on
the left and determine which of

624
00:35:20,385 --> 00:35:23,753
  the three lines on the right
   is equal to it in length.

625
00:35:25,490 --> 00:35:28,592
 Stanley:<i> This is a recreation</i>
<i>from a film I made in the 70's.</i>

626
00:35:28,594 --> 00:35:31,394
<i>Five of the six participants are</i>
        <i> confederates.</i>

627
00:35:31,396 --> 00:35:34,564
   <i> The single true subject</i>
    <i> in the white T- shirt</i>

628
00:35:34,566 --> 00:35:38,301
<i> hears everyone else's answers</i>
<i>before announcing his decision.</i>

629
00:35:38,303 --> 00:35:40,637
         - Man 1: Two.
         - Man 2: Two.

630
00:35:40,972 --> 00:35:42,639
             - Two.
             - Two.

631
00:35:42,641 --> 00:35:43,640
              Two.

632
00:35:43,642 --> 00:35:47,344
 Good. Let's move onto the next
  card. Same thing, gentlemen.

633
00:35:47,346 --> 00:35:49,813
        - Man 1: Three.
        - Man 2: Three.

634
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:52,516
        - Man 3: Three.
            - Three.

635
00:35:52,518 --> 00:35:55,819
  Stanley:<i> After the first few</i>
 <i> rounds, members of the group</i>

636
00:35:55,821 --> 00:35:57,287
    <i> choose the wrong line.</i>

637
00:35:57,289 --> 00:35:59,489
         - Man 3: Two.
         - Man 4: Two.

638
00:35:59,491 --> 00:36:03,059
  Stanley:<i> The subject denies</i>
 <i> the evidence of his own eyes</i>

639
00:36:03,061 --> 00:36:05,028
<i> and yields to group influence.</i>

640
00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:06,963
        (stammers) Two.

641
00:36:06,965 --> 00:36:08,899
     Very good. Thank you.

642
00:36:09,433 --> 00:36:11,067
       In the language of
 social science, the experiment

643
00:36:11,069 --> 00:36:14,337
was known as the effect of group
 pressure upon the modification

644
00:36:14,339 --> 00:36:18,241
 - and distortion of judgments.
      - Pff. Great title.

645
00:36:18,243 --> 00:36:20,577
     It made Asch famous...

646
00:36:21,179 --> 00:36:23,513
   amongst social scientists.

647
00:36:28,653 --> 00:36:30,787
       (engine shuts off)

648
00:36:35,426 --> 00:36:38,628
   It always bothered me that
the experiment was about lines.

649
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:41,531
    I wanted to do something
   more humanly significant.

650
00:36:44,869 --> 00:36:46,937
       - (doorbell rings)
         - (dog barks)

651
00:36:46,939 --> 00:36:49,105
       He hears the bell.

652
00:36:49,107 --> 00:36:51,508
     Stanley, it's so good
          to see you.

653
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:54,844
    - Hi. Nice to meet you.
        - This is Sasha.

654
00:36:54,846 --> 00:36:58,381
      Sasha, how are you?
 So lovely to see you. Come in.

655
00:36:58,383 --> 00:36:59,616
           - Stanley
         - How are you?

656
00:36:59,618 --> 00:37:00,951
       Glad you made it.

657
00:37:03,588 --> 00:37:07,290
Can I tell you what a miserable
  time I had working for Asch?

658
00:37:07,292 --> 00:37:11,528
  Princeton, the bureaucracy,
  the institutional arrogance.

659
00:37:11,530 --> 00:37:14,731
Not permitted to use a scrap of
   paper without it becoming

660
00:37:14,733 --> 00:37:17,601
 an issue to be settled behind
         closed doors.

661
00:37:19,971 --> 00:37:21,137
   A candy bar in the office

662
00:37:21,139 --> 00:37:23,907
       and I was reported
       via formal letter.

663
00:37:23,909 --> 00:37:26,409
  I assumed he'd introduce me
  to the leading intellectuals

664
00:37:26,411 --> 00:37:28,111
of the day. This did not happen.

665
00:37:28,113 --> 00:37:31,915
I assumed that he'd acknowledge
me in the book I was researching

666
00:37:31,917 --> 00:37:34,484
 for him, a book on conformity.

667
00:37:35,987 --> 00:37:37,988
  He did not finish the book.

668
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:40,757
   It was like drinking from
  a glass with a false bottom.

669
00:37:40,759 --> 00:37:43,360
   I thought there'd be more.
         I was thirsty.

670
00:37:43,362 --> 00:37:46,363
     Please call me Sholem,
       I would prefer it.

671
00:37:46,365 --> 00:37:48,798
There's no need to be so stuffy.

672
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,934
    In an elevator? Really?

673
00:37:51,869 --> 00:37:54,037
    They met in an elevator.

674
00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:56,373
   Can someone please pacify
            the dog?

675
00:37:57,375 --> 00:38:00,343
           Here I am,
  still trying to impress him.

676
00:38:00,345 --> 00:38:03,046
  Human nature can be studied
        but not escaped,

677
00:38:03,048 --> 00:38:05,115
      especially your own.

678
00:38:05,117 --> 00:38:07,417
     Well, I was on my way
        into this party

679
00:38:07,419 --> 00:38:09,819
   and I could feel somebody
       walking behind me

680
00:38:09,821 --> 00:38:12,756
  as I went into the building.
 We both got onto the elevator,

681
00:38:12,758 --> 00:38:15,492
and it turned out we were going
       to the same floor.

682
00:38:15,494 --> 00:38:18,028
      And one of us said,
    I don't remember which,

683
00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:19,896
   "Are we going to the same
            party?"

684
00:38:19,898 --> 00:38:21,631
      My fate was sealed.

685
00:38:21,633 --> 00:38:24,501
    He didn't leave my side
        the whole night.

686
00:38:24,503 --> 00:38:26,569
     And he drove me home,

687
00:38:26,571 --> 00:38:28,872
    and it turned out we had
        a lot in common.

688
00:38:28,874 --> 00:38:32,208
  We were both from the Bronx,
 my mother was born in Russia.

689
00:38:32,210 --> 00:38:35,111
     So my sister's friend,
     her parents in Vienna

690
00:38:35,113 --> 00:38:38,448
 had sent her and her brothers
  to New York during the war.

691
00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:40,650
   But when I was over there
       visiting, they had

692
00:38:40,652 --> 00:38:43,920
 just reclaimed their factory,
   and it was a coat factory,

693
00:38:43,922 --> 00:38:46,222
  and that's where I got this.

694
00:38:46,224 --> 00:38:49,292
  So, you're a well- travelled
         American girl,

695
00:38:49,294 --> 00:38:51,161
      born in Switzerland,

696
00:38:51,163 --> 00:38:55,098
who took dance lessons in Paris
and is wearing a Viennese coat?

697
00:38:57,835 --> 00:38:59,469
   Why haven't we met before?

698
00:38:59,471 --> 00:39:03,340
    Stanley, why do you feel
     compelled to dwell on

699
00:39:03,342 --> 00:39:06,443
    the negative aspects of
           obedience?

700
00:39:06,445 --> 00:39:09,679
     Why must you focus on
   its destructive potential?

701
00:39:09,681 --> 00:39:12,782
  Obedience isn't necessarily
     an instrument of evil.

702
00:39:12,784 --> 00:39:15,852
   I think we can both agree,
   looking at recent history,

703
00:39:15,854 --> 00:39:17,654
  the history that brought you
        to this country,

704
00:39:17,656 --> 00:39:20,924
       a history in which
      we see abusive power

705
00:39:20,926 --> 00:39:24,627
assuming unprecedented murderous
          dimensions.

706
00:39:24,629 --> 00:39:27,897
Why does your experiment give me
        a dirty feeling?

707
00:39:28,499 --> 00:39:31,234
He didn't expect these results.

708
00:39:31,236 --> 00:39:33,203
       He tried to change
         the conditions

709
00:39:33,205 --> 00:39:36,139
         so that people
     would refuse to obey.

710
00:39:36,141 --> 00:39:37,374
              Ah.

711
00:39:37,376 --> 00:39:39,809
      We met in a library.

712
00:39:39,811 --> 00:39:41,878
       Oh, him, not him.

713
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,248
   The whole time, I'm sorry,
       this is startling,

714
00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:50,153
      out of 780 subjects,
  not a single person got up,

715
00:39:50,155 --> 00:39:51,788
 went to the door and looked in

716
00:39:51,790 --> 00:39:54,457
  to see if the man screaming
         was all right.

717
00:39:55,126 --> 00:39:57,427
       Not a single one.

718
00:40:01,966 --> 00:40:04,567
    Stanley:<i> Sasha goes back</i>
  <i> to school, Smith College,</i>

719
00:40:04,569 --> 00:40:06,469
<i> for her degree in social work.</i>

720
00:40:07,938 --> 00:40:10,974
   <i> My first obedience paper</i>
<i> submitted almost two years ago</i>

721
00:40:10,976 --> 00:40:13,576
  <i> to the Journal of Abnormal</i>
    <i> and Social Psychology</i>

722
00:40:13,578 --> 00:40:16,713
     <i> is finally published</i>
       <i> in October 1963,</i>

723
00:40:16,715 --> 00:40:19,582
      <i> just after I start</i>
    <i> a new job at Harvard,</i>

724
00:40:19,584 --> 00:40:23,319
     <i> Assistant Professor,</i>
<i>Department of Social Relations.</i>

725
00:40:23,321 --> 00:40:26,122
   Am I impressed with myself
       being at Harvard?

726
00:40:26,124 --> 00:40:30,794
    Well, I got my PhD here,
Harvard is the best place to be.

727
00:40:32,129 --> 00:40:35,865
The subjects were seen to swear,
       tremble, stutter,

728
00:40:35,867 --> 00:40:40,136
   bite their lips, dig their
  fingernails into the flesh,

729
00:40:40,138 --> 00:40:43,807
 and these were characteristic
   responses, not exceptions,

730
00:40:43,809 --> 00:40:48,211
and yet, despite this behavior,
     the majority complied.

731
00:40:50,114 --> 00:40:51,614
              Yes?

732
00:40:51,616 --> 00:40:53,950
       How do you justify
         the deception?

733
00:40:55,486 --> 00:40:58,421
    I like to think of it as
    illusion, not deception.

734
00:40:58,423 --> 00:41:01,291
    Semantics, you may say,
    but illusion, you know,

735
00:41:01,293 --> 00:41:03,626
   has a revelatory function,
         as in a play.

736
00:41:03,628 --> 00:41:05,995
 Illusion can set the stage for
          revelation,

737
00:41:05,997 --> 00:41:08,765
       to reveal certain
  difficult-to-get-at truths.

738
00:41:08,767 --> 00:41:12,035
 But still, when you go to see
 a play, you pay for a ticket.

739
00:41:12,037 --> 00:41:13,736
 You know you're seeing a play.

740
00:41:13,738 --> 00:41:16,473
    These people didn't know
        it wasn't real.

741
00:41:17,308 --> 00:41:18,975
       You tricked them.

742
00:41:18,977 --> 00:41:21,978
     Hello, today we'll be
   doing an experiment about

743
00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:24,280
        blind obedience
    to malevolent authority.

744
00:41:24,282 --> 00:41:27,350
  I'd like for you to pretend
that this machine is delivering

745
00:41:27,352 --> 00:41:29,619
 painful shocks to a person in
        the other room.

746
00:41:29,621 --> 00:41:31,721
   How truthful do you think
         that would be?

747
00:41:31,723 --> 00:41:35,825
But if you think of it, really,
   you were delivering shocks

748
00:41:35,827 --> 00:41:39,329
       to your subjects.
     Psychological shocks.

749
00:41:39,331 --> 00:41:41,130
     - And the anxieties...
             - No--

750
00:41:41,132 --> 00:41:42,732
 ...methodically, for one year.

751
00:41:42,734 --> 00:41:45,468
       If your facts were
 as solid as your imagination,

752
00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:47,804
   you'd realize that this is
        a false analogy.

753
00:41:47,806 --> 00:41:52,909
As Kierkegaard says: "Take away
    paradox from the thinker

754
00:41:52,911 --> 00:41:55,812
  - and you have a professor."
   - An assistant professor.

755
00:41:55,814 --> 00:41:58,348
        For the moment,
     Dr. Milgram and myself

756
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:00,617
 are only assistant professors,
           it's true.

757
00:42:00,619 --> 00:42:03,419
  Funt: (on TV)<i> The gentleman</i>
     <i> in the elevator now</i>

758
00:42:03,421 --> 00:42:05,255
      <i> is a</i> Candid<i> star.</i>

759
00:42:05,257 --> 00:42:08,224
<i> These folks who are entering,</i>
<i> the man with the white shirt,</i>

760
00:42:08,226 --> 00:42:10,493
<i> the lady with the trench coat,</i>

761
00:42:10,495 --> 00:42:14,063
      <i> and, subsequently,</i>
<i> one other member of our staff,</i>

762
00:42:14,065 --> 00:42:16,232
     <i> will face the rear.</i>

763
00:42:16,234 --> 00:42:20,436
<i> And you'll see how this man in</i>
      <i> the trench coat...</i>

764
00:42:20,438 --> 00:42:22,772
      (audience laughter)

765
00:42:26,544 --> 00:42:29,679
   <i> ..tries to maintain his</i>
        <i> individuality,</i>

766
00:42:32,182 --> 00:42:34,817
   <i> but, little by little...</i>

767
00:42:34,819 --> 00:42:35,652
           (laughing)

768
00:42:39,957 --> 00:42:43,660
 <i> ...he looks at his watch but</i>
 <i> he's really making an excuse</i>

769
00:42:43,662 --> 00:42:46,496
<i> for turning just a little bit</i>
      <i> more to the wall."</i>

770
00:42:46,498 --> 00:42:48,197
      Actually, it's true.

771
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:51,734
 There's an element of illusion
     in almost all my work.

772
00:42:51,736 --> 00:42:54,203
     Funt: (on TV)<i> This man</i>
        <i> has apparently</i>

773
00:42:54,205 --> 00:42:55,605
    <i> been in groups before.</i>

774
00:42:55,607 --> 00:42:57,941
      (audience laughter)

775
00:43:05,849 --> 00:43:08,885
<i> Candid Camera</i> was a reference
  point, I never denied that.

776
00:43:08,887 --> 00:43:11,354
You can see that plainly enough
 in the lost letter technique,

777
00:43:11,356 --> 00:43:14,724
which I conceived of at Yale and
    was refined at Harvard.

778
00:43:14,726 --> 00:43:17,060
  <i> Leave a letter, a sealed,</i>
        <i> stamped letter</i>

779
00:43:17,062 --> 00:43:19,395
        <i> but unmailed,</i>
  <i> for someone else to find.</i>

780
00:43:19,397 --> 00:43:22,599
   <i> Leave it on a sidewalk,</i>
<i> inside a store, a phone booth.</i>

781
00:43:22,601 --> 00:43:24,434
 <i> Put it under the windshield</i>
    <i> wipers of a parked car</i>

782
00:43:24,436 --> 00:43:27,704
     <i> with a note saying,</i>
      <i> "Found near car."</i>

783
00:43:27,706 --> 00:43:30,873
 <i> All letters are addressed to</i>
  <i> the same post office box.</i>

784
00:43:30,875 --> 00:43:32,909
<i>But they're evenly split between</i>

785
00:43:32,911 --> 00:43:35,111
        <i> four different</i>
     <i> intended recipients.</i>

786
00:43:35,113 --> 00:43:38,314
Friends of the Communist Party,
   friends of the Nazi Party,

787
00:43:38,316 --> 00:43:42,585
  Medical Research Associates,
     and Mr. Walter Carnap.

788
00:43:42,587 --> 00:43:44,921
       <i> All fictitious.</i>

789
00:43:44,923 --> 00:43:47,090
   <i> The innocuous content of</i>
         <i> the letters,</i>

790
00:43:47,092 --> 00:43:49,792
  <i> if anyone's curious enough</i>
      <i> to open and read,</i>

791
00:43:49,794 --> 00:43:52,395
     <i> was a simple message</i>
    <i> from "Max" to "Walter"</i>

792
00:43:52,397 --> 00:43:54,731
<i> proposing an upcoming meeting.</i>

793
00:43:58,068 --> 00:44:00,136
            Carnap.

794
00:44:00,138 --> 00:44:02,639
   It's kind of an odd name.

795
00:44:02,641 --> 00:44:04,974
     Like the philosopher?

796
00:44:09,313 --> 00:44:10,580
     Stanley:<i> In two weeks,</i>

797
00:44:10,582 --> 00:44:12,315
  <i> out of 100 "lost" letters</i>
      <i> to each addressee,</i>

798
00:44:12,317 --> 00:44:15,485
 <i> 72 were sent to the Medical</i>
     <i> Research Associates,</i>

799
00:44:15,487 --> 00:44:18,054
      <i> plus 71 percent to</i>
      <i> Mr. Walter Carnap,</i>

800
00:44:18,756 --> 00:44:21,691
       <i> but a mere 25 to</i>
<i> the Friends of the Communists,</i>

801
00:44:21,693 --> 00:44:24,727
   <i> and the same number, 25,</i>
        <i> to the Nazis.</i>

802
00:44:24,729 --> 00:44:27,530
    We can deduce from this
    that the American public

803
00:44:27,532 --> 00:44:29,732
        has an aversion
    to Nazis and Communists.

804
00:44:29,734 --> 00:44:33,069
  Results that are reasonable
      and even comforting,

805
00:44:33,071 --> 00:44:36,906
     though not startling.
  But why not take it further?

806
00:44:36,908 --> 00:44:38,775
<i>Taketo Murata, another student,</i>

807
00:44:38,777 --> 00:44:41,678
   <i> drives to Charlotte and</i>
   <i> Raleigh, North Carolina,</i>

808
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,946
<i>to lose a new batch of letters.</i>

809
00:44:55,526 --> 00:44:58,261
 <i> When the letters come back,</i>
 <i> the percentages, once again</i>

810
00:44:58,263 --> 00:45:00,563
 <i> confirm expected prejudices.</i>

811
00:45:00,565 --> 00:45:03,232
 <i> Pro-white letters get mailed</i>
          <i> more often</i>

812
00:45:03,234 --> 00:45:04,901
   <i> in white neighborhoods.</i>

813
00:45:04,903 --> 00:45:08,838
  <i> More pro-negro letters get</i>
<i>mailed from black neighborhoods.</i>

814
00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:12,709
         <i> A variation.</i>

815
00:45:12,711 --> 00:45:16,045
     <i> I hire a pilot with</i>
    <i> a Piper Cub to fly low</i>

816
00:45:16,047 --> 00:45:18,281
<i> over Worcester, Massachusetts,</i>

817
00:45:18,283 --> 00:45:19,916
    <i> spilling lost letters.</i>

818
00:45:19,918 --> 00:45:22,852
  <i> They land in trees, ponds,</i>
         <i> on rooftops.</i>

819
00:45:22,854 --> 00:45:25,722
Not all my ideas are brilliant.

820
00:45:32,162 --> 00:45:34,297
      (footsteps approach)

821
00:45:38,235 --> 00:45:42,939
  Well, it's not on the front
    page, strangely enough.

822
00:45:54,551 --> 00:45:56,886
     I found it. Page Ten.

823
00:45:59,356 --> 00:46:01,491
           OK. Uh...

824
00:46:01,493 --> 00:46:05,461
     "Yale experiment shows
  many distraught over cruelty

825
00:46:05,463 --> 00:46:06,763
       but did not stop."

826
00:46:06,765 --> 00:46:09,332
   It's odd to see one's name
         in the paper,

827
00:46:09,334 --> 00:46:11,300
but maybe I can get used to it.

828
00:46:11,302 --> 00:46:12,602
  "Subjects have been studied

829
00:46:12,604 --> 00:46:15,705
under 24 different experimental
          conditions."

830
00:46:15,707 --> 00:46:17,774
 It wasn't a thousand, was it?

831
00:46:17,776 --> 00:46:19,709
      I talked to him for
       over half an hour

832
00:46:19,711 --> 00:46:21,811
        and I don't see
     a single direct quote.

833
00:46:21,813 --> 00:46:26,315
    "Dr. Milgram pointed out
    that from 1933 to 1945,

834
00:46:26,317 --> 00:46:28,151
      millions of persons

835
00:46:28,153 --> 00:46:31,387
were systematically slaughtered
          on command.

836
00:46:31,389 --> 00:46:35,258
    Gas chambers were built,
   death camps were guarded,

837
00:46:35,260 --> 00:46:39,095
     corpses were produced
    with the same efficiency

838
00:46:39,097 --> 00:46:42,565
     as the manufacture of
          appliances."

839
00:46:42,567 --> 00:46:44,901
        There's a quote.

840
00:46:46,637 --> 00:46:49,238
 Do you think anyone else reads
          this paper?

841
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,588
President Kennedy has been shot.

842
00:47:05,590 --> 00:47:08,024
  He was shot in the motorcade
           in Dallas.

843
00:47:09,459 --> 00:47:11,360
    He was shot in the head.

844
00:47:11,362 --> 00:47:14,697
It's Milgram. It's just another
    one of his experiments.

845
00:47:14,699 --> 00:47:16,232
        - On the level?
             - Yes.

846
00:47:16,234 --> 00:47:19,168
 Kelly, you've got that radio,
       yeah? Turn it on.

847
00:47:20,404 --> 00:47:23,439
  Man: (on radio)<i> ...his tour</i>
<i> of the City of Dallas, Texas.</i>

848
00:47:23,441 --> 00:47:25,942
     <i> A presidential aide,</i>
   <i> Mario Bryan, said he had</i>

849
00:47:25,944 --> 00:47:28,244
  <i> no information on whether</i>
  <i> the President is alive--"</i>

850
00:47:28,246 --> 00:47:31,280
 He's rigged a faked broadcast,
       like Orson Welles.

851
00:47:31,282 --> 00:47:34,750
 I wonder what the experiment's
         really about?

852
00:47:34,752 --> 00:47:37,720
        - This is real.
<i>- ...the president is critical.</i>

853
00:47:37,722 --> 00:47:39,989
 <i> Texas Governor John Connally</i>
        <i> also was shot</i>

854
00:47:39,991 --> 00:47:42,892
<i> and has been taken to surgery</i>
   <i> in Parkland Hospital...</i>

855
00:48:01,511 --> 00:48:03,646
        (car approaches)

856
00:48:08,352 --> 00:48:09,886
        (car door shuts)

857
00:48:11,521 --> 00:48:14,624
 I got it cheap, I got it cheap
      from a grad student.

858
00:48:14,626 --> 00:48:16,325
       He gave me a deal
        when he realized

859
00:48:16,327 --> 00:48:18,094
  he couldn't take it with him
           to London.

860
00:48:18,096 --> 00:48:21,297
   It's making a funny noise.
   Maybe you can have a look.

861
00:48:22,799 --> 00:48:24,267
          - Stanley--
 - You love this kind of thing.

862
00:48:24,269 --> 00:48:26,769
         The dean lives
    right across the street.

863
00:48:26,771 --> 00:48:29,005
      We just applied for
         financial aid.

864
00:48:29,007 --> 00:48:31,340
        A Jaguar, right.
   What's he going to think?

865
00:48:31,342 --> 00:48:33,309
            What...
   Who cares what he thinks?

866
00:48:33,311 --> 00:48:35,578
       I didn't say that.

867
00:48:35,580 --> 00:48:37,914
            - Well--
      - I didn't say that.

868
00:48:40,083 --> 00:48:41,784
             Yeah.

869
00:48:41,786 --> 00:48:44,120
         See you soon.

870
00:48:51,061 --> 00:48:52,495
 It was cheaper than you think,

871
00:48:52,497 --> 00:48:54,764
  but I understand it creates
     the wrong impression.

872
00:48:54,766 --> 00:48:56,065
           - Do you?
            - I do.

873
00:48:56,067 --> 00:48:58,234
     Or are you just doing
        an imitation of

874
00:48:58,236 --> 00:49:01,003
      someone who listens,
       who's reasonable?

875
00:49:01,005 --> 00:49:03,439
   Well, we're going to need
           two cars.

876
00:49:03,441 --> 00:49:06,676
      - Is that the dean?
       - (engine starts)

877
00:49:08,478 --> 00:49:11,814
   Well, maybe it'll impress
 the Harvard tenure committee.

878
00:49:11,816 --> 00:49:14,150
   Who cares what they think?

879
00:49:17,654 --> 00:49:20,356
   - So you returned the car?
            - I did.

880
00:49:20,891 --> 00:49:23,292
       - It was sensible.
             - Hmm.

881
00:49:23,294 --> 00:49:27,129
 I don't know a single tenured
 professor who drives a Jaguar.

882
00:49:27,131 --> 00:49:29,432
    I didn't like the color.

883
00:49:29,434 --> 00:49:33,202
If you get turned down it won't
  be because of an automobile.

884
00:49:34,705 --> 00:49:36,706
  But it's got to sting, yeah?

885
00:49:36,708 --> 00:49:40,443
  The attacks, the criticisms,
     the violent reactions.

886
00:49:40,445 --> 00:49:43,646
  That woman was going through
    a divorce, it turns out.

887
00:49:43,648 --> 00:49:45,982
  I didn't take it personally.

888
00:49:47,084 --> 00:49:49,285
  I'm going through a divorce.

889
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,254
    I don't spit at people.

890
00:49:56,493 --> 00:49:58,627
    I'm sorry to hear that.

891
00:50:00,263 --> 00:50:01,597
           Thank you.

892
00:50:14,811 --> 00:50:18,014
 It's true that I am, possibly,
  more than commonly on edge,

893
00:50:18,016 --> 00:50:20,616
 but how would you feel if you
      picked up a copy of

894
00:50:20,618 --> 00:50:23,085
    <i> American Psychologist</i>
 and found yourself attacked in

895
00:50:23,087 --> 00:50:27,390
an article called "Some Thoughts
     on Ethics in Research:

896
00:50:27,392 --> 00:50:30,960
    a Response to Milgram's
Behavioral Study of Obedience"?

897
00:50:30,962 --> 00:50:34,530
         Psychiatrists,
   many of you in this room,

898
00:50:34,532 --> 00:50:37,266
 predicted that only one person
         in a thousand

899
00:50:37,268 --> 00:50:38,901
would deliver the shocks across
           the board,

900
00:50:38,903 --> 00:50:42,772
  an estimate that was off by
        a factor of 500.

901
00:50:42,774 --> 00:50:48,477
So what happened in the lab was
    discovered, not planned.

902
00:50:48,479 --> 00:50:53,115
 But you expected, you knew you
were going to worry some people.

903
00:50:53,117 --> 00:50:54,417
             - Mmm.
       - Stress, in fact,

904
00:50:54,419 --> 00:50:56,619
      - was a part of it.
        - Well, every--

905
00:50:56,621 --> 00:50:57,653
        Extreme stress.

906
00:50:57,655 --> 00:51:01,057
Every experiment is a situation
   where the end is unknown,

907
00:51:01,059 --> 00:51:05,194
 indeterminate, something that
          might fail.

908
00:51:05,196 --> 00:51:07,997
  The indeterminacy is part of
        the excitement.

909
00:51:07,999 --> 00:51:10,499
Ethics. The undertow of ethics.

910
00:51:10,501 --> 00:51:15,805
  I wanted to ask a question,
     a series of questions

911
00:51:15,807 --> 00:51:19,742
about the psychological function
  of obedience. The conditions

912
00:51:19,744 --> 00:51:22,945
   that shape it, the defense
     mechanisms it entails.

913
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,750
      The emotional forces
  that keep a person obeying.

914
00:51:27,752 --> 00:51:30,786
 As someone with pretensions as
       a moral educator,

915
00:51:30,788 --> 00:51:35,524
let me suggest that science must
 enhance our moral personhood,

916
00:51:35,526 --> 00:51:38,294
    not... not diminish it.

917
00:51:38,296 --> 00:51:41,163
       You forced people
    to torture other people.

918
00:51:41,165 --> 00:51:42,631
             - No.
       - To see if they--

919
00:51:42,633 --> 00:51:46,735
          No. No. No.
   That is alien to my view.

920
00:51:47,137 --> 00:51:50,473
   No one was forced, right?

921
00:51:50,475 --> 00:51:53,442
   The experimenter told the
 subject to perform an action.

922
00:51:53,444 --> 00:51:57,179
     What happened between
  the command and the outcome

923
00:51:57,181 --> 00:51:59,281
       is the individual.

924
00:51:59,283 --> 00:52:04,487
  With conscience and a will,
who can either obey or disobey.

925
00:52:04,489 --> 00:52:08,858
    I don't see how you can
 seriously equate victimization

926
00:52:08,860 --> 00:52:12,761
      in a laboratory con
 with the willful participation

927
00:52:12,763 --> 00:52:14,096
        in mass murder.

928
00:52:14,098 --> 00:52:16,599
     Victimization? Look...

929
00:52:18,401 --> 00:52:21,370
   When the experiments were
            complete

930
00:52:21,372 --> 00:52:24,673
     all the subjects were
    sent this questionnaire.

931
00:52:24,675 --> 00:52:26,208
     Here's some examples.

932
00:52:29,779 --> 00:52:33,616
 84 percent said they were glad
to have been in the experiment.

933
00:52:33,618 --> 00:52:36,952
  15 percent indicated neutral
           feelings.

934
00:52:36,954 --> 00:52:41,290
 1.3 percent indicated negative
           feelings.

935
00:52:42,025 --> 00:52:44,193
          1.3 percent.

936
00:52:44,195 --> 00:52:47,196
    Four-fifths thought more
    experiments of this sort

937
00:52:47,198 --> 00:52:50,866
     should be carried out,
  and 74 percent said they had

938
00:52:50,868 --> 00:52:55,037
 learned something of personal
  importance about themselves

939
00:52:55,039 --> 00:52:58,474
    and about the conditions
    that shape human action.

940
00:53:01,878 --> 00:53:05,514
   <i> A year after the study,</i>
<i>a psychiatrist, Dr. Paul Errara,</i>

941
00:53:05,516 --> 00:53:07,917
<i>was hired to meet with subjects</i>
   <i> who might have suffered</i>

942
00:53:07,919 --> 00:53:10,052
  <i> possible negative effects.</i>

943
00:53:10,554 --> 00:53:14,190
This is not another experiment.
     There's no trick here.

944
00:53:14,192 --> 00:53:16,659
   I can see why you may have
          your doubts.

945
00:53:16,661 --> 00:53:18,260
             - Yes.
             - Yes.

946
00:53:18,262 --> 00:53:20,062
 This is a debriefing meeting.

947
00:53:20,064 --> 00:53:23,165
      We're here to assess
       the after-effects.

948
00:53:23,167 --> 00:53:26,302
   So, tell us how you feel.

949
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:30,539
        I'd like to know
    what the point is of it.

950
00:53:31,675 --> 00:53:34,176
    To learn something about
         human nature.

951
00:53:34,178 --> 00:53:36,912
       That was the aim.

952
00:53:36,914 --> 00:53:39,048
       Professor Milgram?

953
00:53:39,749 --> 00:53:44,019
I hope that... I sincerely hope
        that, basically,

954
00:53:44,021 --> 00:53:46,755
you don't have the feeling that
   would rather not have been

955
00:53:46,757 --> 00:53:48,557
   a part of this experiment.

956
00:53:51,027 --> 00:53:53,529
      It's an interesting
        life experience.

957
00:53:53,531 --> 00:53:55,598
  I don't like hurting anyone

958
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,667
 and I can't understand myself
       going all the way.

959
00:53:59,336 --> 00:54:01,537
  - It left me feeling guilty.
            - Mm-hm.

960
00:54:01,539 --> 00:54:03,839
      Weren't we supposed
        to have coffee?

961
00:54:03,841 --> 00:54:08,344
       I told my husband.
  I know I wasn't supposed to.

962
00:54:08,346 --> 00:54:10,779
   But I don't do everything
           I'm told.

963
00:54:10,781 --> 00:54:13,249
 He said he wouldn't have done
          the shocks.

964
00:54:13,251 --> 00:54:14,850
     He would have refused.

965
00:54:15,986 --> 00:54:18,954
        I wanted to cry,
    but I started to laugh.

966
00:54:18,956 --> 00:54:22,424
     - I think I did both.
   - I was quite frightened,

967
00:54:22,426 --> 00:54:25,027
and I was quivering, and it's...

968
00:54:25,029 --> 00:54:28,397
  I actually tried to memorize
 the word pairs myself so that

969
00:54:28,399 --> 00:54:30,032
        so that if they
       switched it around

970
00:54:30,034 --> 00:54:31,800
     I wouldn't have to get
         those shocks.

971
00:54:31,802 --> 00:54:34,970
There's a tendency to think that
    everything a person does

972
00:54:34,972 --> 00:54:38,707
is due to the feelings or ideas
       within the person.

973
00:54:39,843 --> 00:54:42,077
  You haven't had your coffee.
        You want coffee?

974
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:44,713
             - Yes.
        - Cream? Sugar?

975
00:54:44,715 --> 00:54:47,283
    - I'll take two sugars.
        - Both, please.

976
00:54:47,285 --> 00:54:49,451
        Yes, thank you.

977
00:54:49,453 --> 00:54:53,756
But sometimes a person's actions
         depend equally

978
00:54:53,758 --> 00:54:55,858
        on the situation
     you find yourself in.

979
00:54:55,860 --> 00:54:59,295
 And in this case, the power of
   the situation overwhelmed

980
00:54:59,297 --> 00:55:01,363
      your personal power.

981
00:55:01,365 --> 00:55:03,966
  I'm an understanding person.

982
00:55:03,968 --> 00:55:09,538
I'm an intelligent human being.
    Speak the truth to me...

983
00:55:10,940 --> 00:55:14,877
   and I'll cooperate gladly,
  even if it's a bitter truth,

984
00:55:14,879 --> 00:55:17,012
      but don't lie to me.

985
00:55:17,580 --> 00:55:21,050
        The purpose was
      to advance science,

986
00:55:21,818 --> 00:55:23,786
        learn something.

987
00:55:23,788 --> 00:55:26,355
Maybe you shouldn't do this kind
         of experiment

988
00:55:26,357 --> 00:55:28,891
    if you have to deceive.

989
00:55:29,659 --> 00:55:33,329
  Look, you can deceive other
  people but don't deceive me.

990
00:55:36,466 --> 00:55:38,701
  Stanley:<i> We had half a dozen</i>
     <i> sessions with Errara</i>

991
00:55:38,703 --> 00:55:41,670
  <i> and invited subjects. The</i>
<i>meetings were sparsely attended,</i>

992
00:55:41,672 --> 00:55:44,707
    <i> full of confusion and</i>
 <i> complaints, but we concluded</i>

993
00:55:44,709 --> 00:55:47,076
   <i> that no one showed signs</i>
           <i> of harm,</i>

994
00:55:47,078 --> 00:55:49,078
 <i> no one had been traumatized.</i>

995
00:55:49,446 --> 00:55:52,715
           - Stanley?
         - Tom Shannon.

996
00:55:52,717 --> 00:55:54,450
           (laughing)

997
00:55:54,452 --> 00:55:56,418
     Tom did the wiring on
      the shock generator.

998
00:55:56,420 --> 00:55:59,254
   - At Yale. The shock box.
     - Pleased to meet you.

999
00:55:59,256 --> 00:56:01,557
        - This is Sasha.
       - This is Michele.

1000
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:04,760
   Hey, I hated hearing about
   Jim McDonough. Dead at 49.

1001
00:56:04,762 --> 00:56:06,729
   That stuff about his heart
          was no joke.

1002
00:56:06,731 --> 00:56:10,966
Yeah, I know. Sat down to a bowl
of oatmeal, had a heart attack.

1003
00:56:14,838 --> 00:56:16,171
       He had nine kids.

1004
00:56:16,173 --> 00:56:20,242
  Oh, sad. Maybe you shouldn't
   unload such a large brood

1005
00:56:20,244 --> 00:56:22,144
  into the world, no offense.

1006
00:56:22,146 --> 00:56:25,714
 She's taking us to Paris. It's
the first stamp on her passport.

1007
00:56:25,716 --> 00:56:28,350
       - That's awesome.
         - Sasha thinks
       I need a vacation.

1008
00:56:28,352 --> 00:56:30,486
 Yeah. I heard they roughed you
         up pretty good

1009
00:56:30,488 --> 00:56:33,455
     - about those results.
     - He's up for tenure.

1010
00:56:33,457 --> 00:56:34,890
       People get feisty,
      but it'll work out.

1011
00:56:34,892 --> 00:56:38,193
  Gotta finish your book now.
   Publish or perish, right?

1012
00:56:38,195 --> 00:56:40,229
  Actually, I got sidetracked

1013
00:56:40,231 --> 00:56:42,531
           working on
    the small world problem.

1014
00:56:43,666 --> 00:56:47,035
For the Small World Problem, we
asked people in Kansas and Omaha

1015
00:56:47,037 --> 00:56:51,073
to mail a packet to a person in
     Sharon, Massachusetts.

1016
00:56:53,209 --> 00:56:55,544
  The instructions are simple.

1017
00:56:56,613 --> 00:56:58,147
   <i> There's a target person.</i>

1018
00:56:58,149 --> 00:57:01,083
 <i> In this case, a stockbroker</i>
<i> named Jacobs in Sharon, Mass.</i>

1019
00:57:01,085 --> 00:57:04,319
<i> Assuming they don't know them,</i>
   <i> people are asked to mail</i>

1020
00:57:04,321 --> 00:57:06,522
<i>the folder to someone who might</i>
          <i> know him.</i>

1021
00:57:06,524 --> 00:57:09,625
<i> They can send it to a friend,</i>
  <i> relative, or acquaintance,</i>

1022
00:57:09,627 --> 00:57:12,594
  <i> but they have to send it,</i>
 <i> and this is key, to a person</i>

1023
00:57:12,596 --> 00:57:16,265
<i>they know on a first-name basis.</i>
 <i> There's a roster to fill out</i>

1024
00:57:16,267 --> 00:57:17,666
   <i> and a batch of postcards</i>
         <i> to mail back</i>

1025
00:57:17,668 --> 00:57:20,169
<i>to Harvard to track the process.</i>

1026
00:57:21,137 --> 00:57:22,971
 <i> Will it work? We don't know.</i>

1027
00:57:22,973 --> 00:57:25,874
  <i> A woman in Omaha sends the</i>
<i>folder to a high school friend,</i>

1028
00:57:25,876 --> 00:57:27,976
<i>a bank clerk, in Council Bluffs,</i>
            <i> Iowa.</i>

1029
00:57:27,978 --> 00:57:31,246
<i>She sends it to man in Belmont,</i>
 <i> Massachusetts, a publisher,</i>

1030
00:57:31,248 --> 00:57:34,183
 <i> who sends it to a tanner in</i>
 <i> Sharon, the tanner sends it</i>

1031
00:57:34,185 --> 00:57:37,719
<i> to his brother-in-law, a sheet</i>
<i> metal worker, also in Sharon,</i>

1032
00:57:37,721 --> 00:57:41,123
  <i> who sends it to a dentist,</i>
  <i> who sends it to a printer,</i>

1033
00:57:41,125 --> 00:57:43,525
 <i> who sends it to Mr. Jacobs.</i>

1034
00:57:43,527 --> 00:57:45,861
  <i> Seven links in the chain.</i>

1035
00:57:47,997 --> 00:57:50,866
 <i> The average chain, in fact,</i>
     <i> involves 5.5 links.</i>

1036
00:57:50,868 --> 00:57:54,036
<i>That is, we determine that less</i>
<i> than six degrees of separation</i>

1037
00:57:54,038 --> 00:57:57,039
      <i> exist between you</i>
<i> and several million strangers</i>

1038
00:57:57,041 --> 00:58:00,175
<i>who you may or may not encounter</i>
      <i> in your lifetime.</i>

1039
00:58:01,177 --> 00:58:04,646
<i>When we understand the structure</i>
  <i> of this communication net,</i>

1040
00:58:04,648 --> 00:58:07,115
<i> we stand to grasp a good deal</i>
          <i> more about</i>

1041
00:58:07,117 --> 00:58:09,551
    <i> the fabric of society.</i>

1042
00:58:09,553 --> 00:58:11,753
  <i> Maybe it's not necessarily</i>
          <i> justified,</i>

1043
00:58:11,755 --> 00:58:13,989
 <i> this common human complaint.</i>

1044
00:58:13,991 --> 00:58:18,093
  <i> The feeling that we're all</i>
<i> cut off, alienated, and alone.</i>

1045
00:58:20,063 --> 00:58:23,732
 I don't need to go into detail
 to hide the things I remember,

1046
00:58:23,734 --> 00:58:26,301
  when I was 16, in Bucharest.

1047
00:58:26,303 --> 00:58:29,171
 The killings, torture, terror.

1048
00:58:29,173 --> 00:58:30,506
  Why are you bringing this up
              now?

1049
00:58:30,508 --> 00:58:32,007
         It's relevant.

1050
00:58:32,009 --> 00:58:36,144
  The man was just turned down
     for tenure at Harvard.

1051
00:58:36,146 --> 00:58:38,747
  You wish to give the tragedy
       some perspective.

1052
00:58:38,749 --> 00:58:41,783
      It's not just that.
     Because, bear with me,

1053
00:58:41,785 --> 00:58:44,286
    they took people to the
 slaughterhouse and strung them

1054
00:58:44,288 --> 00:58:46,455
  on meat hooks, still alive.

1055
00:58:46,457 --> 00:58:48,991
     Cut open their bellies
          like cattle.

1056
00:58:48,993 --> 00:58:50,959
      A five-year-old boy.

1057
00:58:50,961 --> 00:58:55,030
 And they watched the entrails
  spill out, the blood drain,

1058
00:58:55,032 --> 00:58:59,401
 and they wrote notes and they
pinned the papers to the bodies.

1059
00:58:59,403 --> 00:59:01,737
           "Kosher."

1060
00:59:15,752 --> 00:59:17,119
            (click)

1061
00:59:26,563 --> 00:59:28,497
    Serge was just giving me
         a lesson in--

1062
00:59:28,499 --> 00:59:29,565
            Reality?

1063
00:59:29,567 --> 00:59:33,835
          The pogroms,
   in Romania during the war.

1064
00:59:34,971 --> 00:59:36,672
        The Iron Guard,

1065
00:59:37,607 --> 00:59:41,310
    they lit people on fire,
   threw them off buildings.

1066
00:59:43,179 --> 00:59:46,548
   This is my charming way of
   saying your husband's work

1067
00:59:46,550 --> 00:59:48,884
      is very important...

1068
00:59:49,252 --> 00:59:50,886
          and timely.

1069
00:59:50,888 --> 00:59:54,289
 Because the techniques change,
      the victims change,

1070
00:59:54,824 --> 00:59:58,594
   but it's still a question.
  How do these things happen?

1071
00:59:59,862 --> 01:00:02,197
How are they institutionalized?

1072
01:00:04,334 --> 01:00:06,201
       The Algerian War,

1073
01:00:06,203 --> 01:00:09,538
the tortures. Do you know about
      this in the States?

1074
01:00:09,540 --> 01:00:11,239
        Yeah, of course.

1075
01:00:11,241 --> 01:00:15,210
  You should do the obedience
experiments in Europe, Stanley.

1076
01:00:15,212 --> 01:00:17,946
        France, Germany.

1077
01:00:17,948 --> 01:00:20,549
         Recreate them.

1078
01:00:20,551 --> 01:00:22,684
     Will it be different?

1079
01:00:23,252 --> 01:00:25,954
      - I don't think so.
     - Who would fund them?

1080
01:00:26,823 --> 01:00:30,092
 The experiments are unethical.
           Remember?

1081
01:00:31,127 --> 01:00:33,862
     No tenure, no funding.

1082
01:00:34,297 --> 01:00:37,065
  And the IRBs? The IRBs, yes,

1083
01:00:37,067 --> 01:00:40,102
 basically you cannot do these
 experiments without submitting

1084
01:00:40,104 --> 01:00:42,371
          something to
   the Internal Review Board.

1085
01:00:42,373 --> 01:00:45,841
He'll finish his book, and then
    Stanley wants to move on

1086
01:00:45,843 --> 01:00:48,810
from the obedience experiments,
          and why not?

1087
01:00:50,713 --> 01:00:54,383
  Well, you look under a rock,
     ugly things crawl out,

1088
01:00:54,385 --> 01:00:56,885
   and we have to face them.

1089
01:00:59,122 --> 01:01:04,026
    Your other experiments,
     the letters, the maps,

1090
01:01:04,028 --> 01:01:06,094
        clever, hopeful,

1091
01:01:06,096 --> 01:01:10,532
  but you have to get back to
   the obedience experiments.

1092
01:01:10,534 --> 01:01:12,000
        I do. I have to.

1093
01:01:12,002 --> 01:01:15,370
         Yes, Stanley.
      You have no choice.

1094
01:01:18,307 --> 01:01:20,742
     (steel drums playing)

1095
01:01:23,980 --> 01:01:26,381
     Stanley:<i> My new job at</i>
 <i> City University of New York</i>

1096
01:01:26,383 --> 01:01:29,651
    <i> involves a jump in pay</i>
   <i> and full professorship.</i>

1097
01:01:30,119 --> 01:01:33,321
<i> The head of the department of</i>
      <i> social psychology.</i>

1098
01:01:33,323 --> 01:01:36,458
    The City of New York is
   a major laboratory, to be

1099
01:01:36,460 --> 01:01:39,461
  utilized in the research and
 training of graduate students

1100
01:01:39,463 --> 01:01:41,563
     in social psychology.

1101
01:01:41,565 --> 01:01:43,365
          That's from
       the CUNY brochure.

1102
01:01:44,300 --> 01:01:45,434
          I wrote it.

1103
01:01:48,604 --> 01:01:51,139
<i>Sasha finds an apartment for us</i>
         <i> in Riverdale</i>

1104
01:01:51,141 --> 01:01:55,277
<i>with a great view of the Hudson.</i>
    <i> Marc was born in 1967.</i>

1105
01:01:55,279 --> 01:01:57,412
<i> He hardly remembers Cambridge.</i>

1106
01:01:58,748 --> 01:02:02,551
<i>Even, or especially when nothing</i>
    <i> decisive is happening,</i>

1107
01:02:02,553 --> 01:02:05,120
 <i> time refuses to stand still.</i>

1108
01:02:09,192 --> 01:02:11,760
     I walk to the station
         every morning,

1109
01:02:11,762 --> 01:02:13,695
 take the train into this city.

1110
01:02:13,697 --> 01:02:16,364
     - I enjoy the routine.
      - (train approaches)

1111
01:02:19,869 --> 01:02:23,238
      Today's assignment.
      Get on a local bus,

1112
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,174
and then with the bus in motion
        and loud enough

1113
01:02:26,176 --> 01:02:28,610
   to be heard by your fellow
          passengers,

1114
01:02:28,612 --> 01:02:30,679
    sing your favorite song.

1115
01:02:30,681 --> 01:02:32,848
       (students murmur)

1116
01:02:32,850 --> 01:02:34,816
    Girl: Any song we want?

1117
01:02:34,818 --> 01:02:37,919
  Just as long as you know the
  words and can sing them loud

1118
01:02:37,921 --> 01:02:42,124
 and clear. Pair up. Non-singer
takes notes, then switch roles.

1119
01:02:44,060 --> 01:02:49,064
 You may say, "so what, singing
  a song, anyone can do that."

1120
01:02:49,066 --> 01:02:50,699
 Or, "I don't have to do that,

1121
01:02:50,701 --> 01:02:52,667
       I'm an individual,
       not a conformist."

1122
01:02:52,669 --> 01:02:54,035
      Or, "This is silly,

1123
01:02:54,037 --> 01:02:57,706
  it doesn't change the world
        to sing a song."

1124
01:02:57,708 --> 01:03:00,275
My answer to you is simply this.

1125
01:03:00,743 --> 01:03:03,845
    Get on the bus and sing.

1126
01:03:05,481 --> 01:03:07,916
  Now go, right now. Come on.

1127
01:03:12,588 --> 01:03:14,122
          No humming.

1128
01:03:14,124 --> 01:03:16,925
      - (band plays music)
     - (audience applauds)

1129
01:03:25,168 --> 01:03:28,537
        My next guest is
    professor of psychology

1130
01:03:28,539 --> 01:03:29,871
    at the Graduate Center,

1131
01:03:29,873 --> 01:03:31,807
the City University in New York.

1132
01:03:31,809 --> 01:03:35,443
He's written a fascinating book,
       a disturbing book.

1133
01:03:35,445 --> 01:03:39,147
   <i> Obedience To Authority:</i>
    <i> an Experimental View,</i>

1134
01:03:39,149 --> 01:03:41,283
just published by<i> Harper & Row.</i>

1135
01:03:41,285 --> 01:03:46,221
Please welcome a very creative,
       very controversial

1136
01:03:46,223 --> 01:03:49,624
       sociopsychologist,
        Stanley Milgram.

1137
01:03:49,626 --> 01:03:51,092
      Doctor. Dr. Milgram.

1138
01:03:51,094 --> 01:03:55,831
 So your subjects, they thought
     the shocks were real,

1139
01:03:55,833 --> 01:03:59,668
         that they were
     delivering 450 volts,

1140
01:03:59,670 --> 01:04:01,736
     - 65 percent of them.
             - Mm.

1141
01:04:01,738 --> 01:04:05,907
 But they were not particularly
 aggressive or sadistic people.

1142
01:04:05,909 --> 01:04:08,577
   They were a representative
  cross-section of the average

1143
01:04:08,579 --> 01:04:11,847
 American citizen living within
   range of Yale University.

1144
01:04:11,849 --> 01:04:15,383
    I thought, yes, we'd do
  the experiment in New Haven,

1145
01:04:15,385 --> 01:04:18,086
  and there'd be very limited
           obedience,

1146
01:04:18,088 --> 01:04:21,456
     and then we'd recreate
the experiment in, say, Berlin,

1147
01:04:21,458 --> 01:04:24,960
 and find the rate of obedience
       to be much higher.

1148
01:04:25,728 --> 01:04:28,063
    Saved a bit on airfare,
          didn't you?

1149
01:04:28,898 --> 01:04:31,333
 So, let me get this straight.

1150
01:04:31,767 --> 01:04:34,469
     You did the experiment
       in the early 60's?

1151
01:04:34,971 --> 01:04:37,672
     And here we are, 1974,

1152
01:04:37,674 --> 01:04:40,408
 and your book still feels like
             news.

1153
01:04:41,177 --> 01:04:42,544
          Why is that?

1154
01:04:44,013 --> 01:04:46,781
People don't have the resources
      to resist authority.

1155
01:04:46,783 --> 01:04:48,984
   That's what the experiment
          teaches us.

1156
01:04:48,986 --> 01:04:51,753
But people don't wanna hear it.
    The experiment explains

1157
01:04:51,755 --> 01:04:56,691
       a kind of flaw in
        social thinking.

1158
01:04:56,693 --> 01:04:59,661
          A deadening,
  a suspension of moral value.

1159
01:05:00,062 --> 01:05:01,830
         What would you
      say to your critics,

1160
01:05:01,832 --> 01:05:06,134
    critics who would insist
   the moral lapse is yours?

1161
01:05:06,136 --> 01:05:10,872
One of them cites "the extremely
     callous, deceitful way

1162
01:05:10,874 --> 01:05:12,807
      the experiments were
         carried out."

1163
01:05:12,809 --> 01:05:16,177
  Another calls them "morally
       repugnant, vile,"

1164
01:05:16,579 --> 01:05:20,582
  um, "Milgram belongs on the
other end of the shock machine."

1165
01:05:21,384 --> 01:05:25,854
  There certainly is a certain
   kind of Kafkaesque quality

1166
01:05:25,856 --> 01:05:27,956
     - to the experiments.
         - Kafkaesque?

1167
01:05:27,958 --> 01:05:30,825
    The experiment taught me
    something about the, uh,

1168
01:05:30,827 --> 01:05:32,961
  plasticity of human nature.

1169
01:05:32,963 --> 01:05:35,830
         Not the evil,
    not the aggressiveness,

1170
01:05:35,832 --> 01:05:38,166
     but a certain kind of
         malleability.

1171
01:05:38,935 --> 01:05:41,970
   <i> 65 percent of volunteers</i>
        <i> were obedient.</i>

1172
01:05:41,972 --> 01:05:45,607
   <i> That left 35 percent who</i>
  <i> recognized a moral breach,</i>

1173
01:05:45,609 --> 01:05:49,210
   <i> took responsibility for</i>
 <i> their actions and resisted.</i>

1174
01:05:49,212 --> 01:05:51,279
Williams: There is no permanent
         tissue damage.

1175
01:05:51,281 --> 01:05:54,482
      That's your opinion.
If he doesn't want to continue,

1176
01:05:54,484 --> 01:05:56,051
  I'm taking orders from him.

1177
01:05:56,053 --> 01:05:58,486
    The experiment requires
         you continue.

1178
01:05:58,488 --> 01:06:00,055
   You have no other choice.

1179
01:06:00,057 --> 01:06:03,058
   If this were Russia maybe,
      but not in America.

1180
01:06:03,759 --> 01:06:07,395
    Stanley:<i> But obedience,</i>
 <i> compliance, was more common.</i>

1181
01:06:09,298 --> 01:06:13,168
<i> You tell yourself: "I wouldn't</i>
 <i> do that. I'd never do that."</i>

1182
01:06:13,170 --> 01:06:15,503
 <i> But then, what did Montaigne</i>
             <i> say?</i>

1183
01:06:16,405 --> 01:06:21,242
 <i> "We are double in ourselves.</i>
<i> What we believe we disbelieve,</i>

1184
01:06:21,244 --> 01:06:24,646
<i> and we cannot rid ourselves of</i>
      <i> what we condemn."</i>

1185
01:06:40,329 --> 01:06:42,597
 Another one of my experiments.

1186
01:06:42,599 --> 01:06:44,532
   Hank, a CUNY grad student,

1187
01:06:44,534 --> 01:06:47,902
       was the designated
   "crowd crystal" staring up

1188
01:06:47,904 --> 01:06:49,537
   at a fixed point in space,

1189
01:06:49,539 --> 01:06:53,308
 looking up at a non- existent
          "something".

1190
01:06:54,543 --> 01:06:56,511
       <i> As you multiply</i>
      <i> the confederates,</i>

1191
01:06:56,513 --> 01:06:57,379
   <i> the people who stare up</i>

1192
01:06:57,381 --> 01:07:02,283
   <i> the number of people who</i>
    <i> actually stop and look</i>

1193
01:07:02,285 --> 01:07:04,619
   <i> increases exponentially.</i>

1194
01:07:05,588 --> 01:07:08,823
   <i> Meanwhile,</i> Obedience To
 Authority<i> gets translated into</i>

1195
01:07:08,825 --> 01:07:12,494
<i> eight languages and nominated</i>
  <i> for a national book award.</i>

1196
01:07:13,295 --> 01:07:15,430
            (whirs)

1197
01:07:16,399 --> 01:07:20,668
 - October 24th, 1974, 4:25pm.
  - (typewriter keys clatter)

1198
01:07:20,670 --> 01:07:23,972
     Sheila Jarcho, J-A-R--

1199
01:07:23,974 --> 01:07:25,473
    I know how to spell it,
            Stanley.

1200
01:07:25,475 --> 01:07:29,544
  C-H-O, working on the mental
     maps project, comes in

1201
01:07:29,546 --> 01:07:32,914
and tells me errors were made in
     the neighborhood map,

1202
01:07:32,916 --> 01:07:35,850
   already duplicated in some
          500 copies.

1203
01:07:36,485 --> 01:07:39,687
 Her facial expression captures
 the attitude that she's shown

1204
01:07:39,689 --> 01:07:42,357
  all along in her capacity as
      research assistant.

1205
01:07:42,359 --> 01:07:44,793
          Are my eyes
  really that close together?

1206
01:07:45,394 --> 01:07:47,962
On the whole, both men and women
      are highly critical

1207
01:07:47,964 --> 01:07:50,131
  when studying photographs of
          themselves.

1208
01:07:50,133 --> 01:07:51,900
      The vanity factor's
         extraordinary

1209
01:07:51,902 --> 01:07:53,902
       when people judge
        their own image.

1210
01:07:53,904 --> 01:07:56,204
     Do you ever worry that
      everything's sort of

1211
01:07:56,206 --> 01:07:59,074
      an anti-climax since
   the obedience experiments,

1212
01:07:59,076 --> 01:08:03,011
      and that your work,
really everything you're doing,

1213
01:08:03,013 --> 01:08:05,346
  is just a flash in the pan?

1214
01:08:06,715 --> 01:08:10,919
The truth is, you're invested in
     the idea of authority

1215
01:08:10,921 --> 01:08:13,121
  and you love lording it over
           all of us.

1216
01:08:13,123 --> 01:08:15,857
    Me, the other students,
      and even your wife.

1217
01:08:15,859 --> 01:08:17,058
              Me?

1218
01:08:17,060 --> 01:08:18,993
        Well, fuck yeah.

1219
01:08:18,995 --> 01:08:20,528
           (laughing)

1220
01:08:20,530 --> 01:08:23,164
 I work here because I get paid
             for it

1221
01:08:23,166 --> 01:08:25,533
      and I actually think
       it's kind of fun.

1222
01:08:26,102 --> 01:08:28,603
 Sheila, what's wrong with you?

1223
01:08:28,605 --> 01:08:32,607
      Huh. Just keep doing
    what he tells you to do.

1224
01:08:35,144 --> 01:08:37,812
       I don't get along
     with all my students.

1225
01:08:37,814 --> 01:08:39,681
     The flash in the pan?

1226
01:08:39,683 --> 01:08:42,817
How many people can manage even
          that flash?

1227
01:08:42,819 --> 01:08:45,053
      I've done some psych
          experiments,

1228
01:08:45,055 --> 01:08:46,988
 but in my mind I'm still about
            to write

1229
01:08:46,990 --> 01:08:49,290
   my great Broadway musical.

1230
01:08:49,625 --> 01:08:53,728
    4:27 pm. Paul Hollander,
    looking tan and fit,

1231
01:08:53,730 --> 01:08:55,396
pays a visit from Massachusetts.

1232
01:08:55,398 --> 01:08:58,166
   Tan and fit and miserable.

1233
01:08:58,168 --> 01:09:00,101
      I am so sorry, Paul.

1234
01:09:00,103 --> 01:09:02,337
     Well, another marriage
        down the drain.

1235
01:09:02,339 --> 01:09:05,940
 - I should've seen it coming.
- Sasha: It's terrible, rotten.

1236
01:09:05,942 --> 01:09:07,642
       But you look good.

1237
01:09:07,644 --> 01:09:10,245
 Paul: The worst of it is she's
     erected a Berlin Wall

1238
01:09:10,247 --> 01:09:12,147
 - between me and my daughter.
          - Sasha: Oh.

1239
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:14,849
  Nice place you've got here.

1240
01:09:14,851 --> 01:09:17,418
It isn't Harvard, but thank you.

1241
01:09:17,420 --> 01:09:19,454
 Harvard would never have given
  you an office half as grand

1242
01:09:19,456 --> 01:09:23,191
     as this, or found you
   as bewitching a secretary.

1243
01:09:23,193 --> 01:09:25,793
      Oh. Well, I just go
       where the work is.

1244
01:09:26,762 --> 01:09:29,731
         So, aren't you
going to take my picture, then?

1245
01:09:30,833 --> 01:09:33,168
      I'm considering it.

1246
01:09:41,076 --> 01:09:42,911
  Do you ever feel invincible
           one moment

1247
01:09:42,913 --> 01:09:44,879
  and then worthless the next?

1248
01:09:44,881 --> 01:09:46,281
         (camera whirs)

1249
01:09:48,050 --> 01:09:50,385
         - Yes and no.
        - (camera whirs)

1250
01:09:58,260 --> 01:10:01,462
  The camera begins to attract
    its own subject matter.

1251
01:10:01,464 --> 01:10:05,133
    It's no longer a passive
     recorder, but actively

1252
01:10:05,135 --> 01:10:07,202
attracts the people it records.

1253
01:10:07,204 --> 01:10:09,537
          (door opens)

1254
01:10:11,106 --> 01:10:14,275
      Uh, Stanley Milgram?

1255
01:10:16,045 --> 01:10:18,179
  How did I get to be so old?

1256
01:10:18,581 --> 01:10:21,216
 What is the Kierkegaard quote?

1257
01:10:22,251 --> 01:10:25,320
     "Life can always be...

1258
01:10:25,322 --> 01:10:27,488
 Only be understood backward."

1259
01:10:27,490 --> 01:10:30,625
  October 24th, 1974, 4:29 pm.

1260
01:10:30,627 --> 01:10:33,494
Conversation with Paul Hollander
 interrupted by the arrival of

1261
01:10:33,496 --> 01:10:36,598
 a messenger bearing, at last,

1262
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:40,735
     the German edition of
   <i> Obedience To Authority.</i>

1263
01:10:40,737 --> 01:10:42,337
     With crass barbed wire
         cover design.

1264
01:10:42,339 --> 01:10:44,672
        Paul:<i> Mein Gott.</i>

1265
01:10:45,107 --> 01:10:47,609
      - What's your name?
        - Thomas Shine.

1266
01:10:47,611 --> 01:10:50,545
     Mind participating in
         my experiment?

1267
01:10:50,879 --> 01:10:51,779
          It depends.

1268
01:10:51,781 --> 01:10:55,383
   He just wants to take your
 picture. Everybody's doing it.

1269
01:10:56,352 --> 01:10:59,587
   - OK. I need a signature.
           - Oh, yes.

1270
01:11:00,589 --> 01:11:03,291
       He's interested in
    the unacknowledged power

1271
01:11:03,293 --> 01:11:05,460
    of photographic images.

1272
01:11:06,028 --> 01:11:08,162
        - (camera whirs)
             - OK.

1273
01:11:08,697 --> 01:11:12,934
Uh, "Life can only be understood
           backwards

1274
01:11:12,936 --> 01:11:15,770
 but has to be lived forwards."

1275
01:11:21,610 --> 01:11:23,244
         (door closes)

1276
01:11:23,246 --> 01:11:25,713
     (steel drums playing)

1277
01:11:28,517 --> 01:11:31,386
   Stanley:<i> Around this time,</i>
    <i> I was also working on</i>

1278
01:11:31,388 --> 01:11:33,488
     The Familiar Stranger.

1279
01:11:33,922 --> 01:11:35,823
       (train approaches)

1280
01:11:35,825 --> 01:11:39,027
<i>We take photographs of commuters</i>
     <i> on a train platform.</i>

1281
01:11:39,029 --> 01:11:42,096
 Each figure in the photographs
      are given a number.

1282
01:11:42,098 --> 01:11:43,765
   The photos are duplicated,

1283
01:11:43,767 --> 01:11:46,067
        and a week later
    the students follow up.

1284
01:11:48,070 --> 01:11:50,271
 Hello. I'm a student at CUNY.

1285
01:11:50,273 --> 01:11:52,674
   Would you mind filling out
      this questionnaire?

1286
01:11:52,676 --> 01:11:54,275
             - OK.
            - Also,

1287
01:11:54,277 --> 01:11:56,511
        do you recognize
      any of these people?

1288
01:11:56,513 --> 01:11:57,812
              No.

1289
01:11:57,814 --> 01:12:00,682
       - What about here?
       - Well, that's me.

1290
01:12:01,317 --> 01:12:03,284
            Yes.
 Can you identify anyone else?

1291
01:12:03,286 --> 01:12:05,620
        Uh, not by name.

1292
01:12:06,588 --> 01:12:09,524
Most commuters recognize,
  on average, four individuals

1293
01:12:09,526 --> 01:12:12,393
they see in their daily routine
      but never speak to.

1294
01:12:12,395 --> 01:12:14,062
      Familiar strangers.

1295
01:12:14,064 --> 01:12:16,764
         Amongst these
    are "sociometric stars".

1296
01:12:16,766 --> 01:12:19,367
   Figures that they not only
           recognize

1297
01:12:19,369 --> 01:12:21,703
   but even fantasize about.

1298
01:12:25,574 --> 01:12:28,576
 They wonder what kind of lives
     these strangers lead,

1299
01:12:28,578 --> 01:12:30,511
   what their jobs are like.

1300
01:12:30,513 --> 01:12:33,047
And if they ran into each other
       in another place,

1301
01:12:33,049 --> 01:12:36,651
or if some emergency jolted them
      out of this routine,

1302
01:12:36,653 --> 01:12:40,621
   they might start to speak,
   actually know one another.

1303
01:12:45,861 --> 01:12:49,464
 I teach at CUNY, and I see you
     out here all the time

1304
01:12:49,466 --> 01:12:52,266
 and I wonder about the things
         you must see.

1305
01:12:52,268 --> 01:12:54,202
       You look familiar.
       What do you teach?

1306
01:12:54,204 --> 01:12:57,739
Social psychology. "The City of
New York is a vast laboratory."

1307
01:12:57,741 --> 01:13:00,408
I had no idea you were English.
        You're English?

1308
01:13:00,410 --> 01:13:02,777
             - Yes.
- Assuming that accent is real.

1309
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:06,614
       - I saw you on TV.
   <i> - Good Morning America.</i>

1310
01:13:06,616 --> 01:13:09,584
 - I knew you looked familiar.
      - He tortures people

1311
01:13:09,586 --> 01:13:12,353
    - with electric shocks.
     - That isn't accurate.

1312
01:13:12,355 --> 01:13:14,288
    He's very controversial.

1313
01:13:14,290 --> 01:13:16,591
     Have you read my book?
           Have you?

1314
01:13:16,593 --> 01:13:19,127
I don't get a chance to read as
      much as I'd like to.

1315
01:13:19,129 --> 01:13:21,195
           - It's OK.
      - I read the review.

1316
01:13:21,197 --> 01:13:23,264
 Well, there were many reviews.

1317
01:13:23,266 --> 01:13:26,267
  It was<i> The Times,</i> wasn't it?
             Harsh.

1318
01:13:26,269 --> 01:13:28,403
   Yes, it was. It was harsh.

1319
01:13:28,405 --> 01:13:31,406
 It was nominated for an award,
      but yeah, who cares?

1320
01:13:31,408 --> 01:13:33,775
     Why disabuse yourself?

1321
01:13:33,777 --> 01:13:34,876
             What?

1322
01:13:34,878 --> 01:13:37,779
 I don't wanna make you angry,
         ma'am. Just...

1323
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:40,348
      have a nice day, OK?

1324
01:13:40,350 --> 01:13:42,884
     Abe, it was a pleasure
          meeting you.

1325
01:13:50,325 --> 01:13:52,660
            (whirs)

1326
01:13:53,462 --> 01:13:56,030
I was bowled over when I first
         read about it,

1327
01:13:56,032 --> 01:13:58,232
     and you in<i> The Times,</i>

1328
01:13:58,234 --> 01:14:00,435
  and then I read the original
            material

1329
01:14:00,437 --> 01:14:02,670
  and the scientific journals,
         and I mulled.

1330
01:14:02,672 --> 01:14:04,772
        - You m- mulled?
          - I mulled.

1331
01:14:04,774 --> 01:14:08,943
 This mulling produced the idea
        to do a TV play

1332
01:14:08,945 --> 01:14:12,747
of a hopefully high caliber, for
       an accepted show,

1333
01:14:12,749 --> 01:14:16,150
   of a decently adult level,
  treating, in fictional form,

1334
01:14:16,152 --> 01:14:19,387
  the kind of experiments you
  performed and its aftermath.

1335
01:14:19,389 --> 01:14:22,156
 Using it as a springboard for
       my own characters

1336
01:14:22,158 --> 01:14:25,259
  and situational inventions.

1337
01:14:25,261 --> 01:14:28,129
      I, uh, I kept this.

1338
01:14:29,998 --> 01:14:32,366
     D'you see how yellow?

1339
01:14:32,368 --> 01:14:35,303
     Stan, sorry, help me.
     I was just wondering.

1340
01:14:35,305 --> 01:14:37,438
   Your name, its derivation?

1341
01:14:37,973 --> 01:14:40,508
  Milgram means "pomegranate"
           in Hebrew.

1342
01:14:40,510 --> 01:14:43,711
It's one of the seven fruits of
     the Bible. I'm Jewish,

1343
01:14:43,713 --> 01:14:45,446
 if that's what you're asking?

1344
01:14:45,448 --> 01:14:47,615
   Apples is another, right?

1345
01:14:47,617 --> 01:14:50,685
         Figs, grapes.
    Olives, they're a fruit?

1346
01:14:50,687 --> 01:14:55,289
   Anyhow, when you point out
the parallels, the connections,

1347
01:14:55,291 --> 01:14:58,659
         Hannah Arendt,
    <i> The Banality Of Evil,</i>

1348
01:14:58,661 --> 01:15:00,728
      the My Lai massacre,
          all of that,

1349
01:15:00,730 --> 01:15:03,164
I see where you're coming from.

1350
01:15:03,166 --> 01:15:06,734
   I'm here because a serious
      situation is pending

1351
01:15:06,736 --> 01:15:09,303
         with regard to
      the drama I propose.

1352
01:15:10,105 --> 01:15:14,809
  <i> Playhouse 90,</i> the Columbia
      Broadcasting System.

1353
01:15:15,177 --> 01:15:17,512
              CBS.

1354
01:15:32,494 --> 01:15:35,563
   Michele,<i> ma belle. Ca va?</i>

1355
01:15:35,864 --> 01:15:37,131
              Hi.

1356
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:40,968
      I was just gonna get
        some ice cream.

1357
01:15:50,712 --> 01:15:53,047
      (crockery clatters)

1358
01:15:59,821 --> 01:16:03,524
Whenever I'm up late like this,
        which is a lot,

1359
01:16:03,526 --> 01:16:05,560
  I think of your grandfather.

1360
01:16:05,562 --> 01:16:08,329
             - Sam.
   - Yeah, that was his name.

1361
01:16:08,331 --> 01:16:09,664
             Yeah.

1362
01:16:10,465 --> 01:16:12,233
            He died.

1363
01:16:12,235 --> 01:16:16,737
That's right, in his sleep. It's
 the luckiest way, people say,

1364
01:16:16,739 --> 01:16:18,739
 not to know what's happening.

1365
01:16:19,708 --> 01:16:21,943
     Why... Why did he die?

1366
01:16:21,945 --> 01:16:23,210
              Hmm.

1367
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:25,980
         Heart disease.

1368
01:16:26,782 --> 01:16:27,848
  It was before you were born,

1369
01:16:27,850 --> 01:16:30,785
       before your mother
        could meet him.

1370
01:16:32,154 --> 01:16:36,524
        He was a baker,
   his specialty were cakes.

1371
01:16:36,526 --> 01:16:38,025
       - He worked late.
           - Mmm-hmm.

1372
01:16:38,027 --> 01:16:40,928
       I got it from him.
  Maybe you'll get it from me.

1373
01:16:43,098 --> 01:16:44,999
   (siren blares in distance)

1374
01:16:45,001 --> 01:16:47,568
  Bellak:<i> Basically there are</i>
    <i> three types of people.</i>

1375
01:16:47,570 --> 01:16:50,137
          That's what
    your research confirms.

1376
01:16:50,706 --> 01:16:53,341
       There's the person
    who makes things happen,

1377
01:16:53,343 --> 01:16:56,444
         the person who
     watches things happen,

1378
01:16:56,446 --> 01:16:59,580
   then the person who says,
        "What happened?"

1379
01:16:59,582 --> 01:17:02,116
            - Right?
           - (buzzer)

1380
01:17:02,751 --> 01:17:06,887
I'm a dramatist, I was explicit,
        not a scientist.

1381
01:17:06,889 --> 01:17:11,826
 Your work is a springboard for
 revealing basic human truths.

1382
01:17:11,828 --> 01:17:14,996
 You get your consultant's fee.
      What's the problem?

1383
01:17:14,998 --> 01:17:18,799
  - It isn't about the money.
          - (beeping)

1384
01:17:19,901 --> 01:17:21,402
            (buzzer)

1385
01:17:22,270 --> 01:17:24,572
Secretary:<i> I'm sorry, she needs</i>
    <i> to speak to you again.</i>

1386
01:17:24,574 --> 01:17:26,741
    <i> She says it's urgent.</i>

1387
01:17:28,477 --> 01:17:30,811
       Tell her to relax.

1388
01:17:37,653 --> 01:17:39,987
           Excuse me.

1389
01:17:44,226 --> 01:17:46,360
 (telephone rings in distance)

1390
01:17:47,896 --> 01:17:50,231
   (typewriter keys clatter)

1391
01:18:15,057 --> 01:18:17,191
       (telephone beeps)

1392
01:18:19,461 --> 01:18:21,796
    Secretary:<i> Dr. Stanley?</i>

1393
01:18:22,998 --> 01:18:24,498
              Yes?

1394
01:18:24,500 --> 01:18:28,002
   <i> Mr. Bellak won't be back</i>
<i> in his office this afternoon.</i>

1395
01:18:28,537 --> 01:18:30,204
           Excuse me?

1396
01:18:30,206 --> 01:18:32,473
  <i> He can't talk to you today</i>
           <i> anymore.</i>

1397
01:18:33,341 --> 01:18:35,476
<i> He says you can visit the set.</i>

1398
01:18:38,246 --> 01:18:39,980
              OK.

1399
01:18:54,629 --> 01:18:57,465
  So, you sold him the rights?

1400
01:18:58,867 --> 01:19:03,003
   No. But it's a gray area.

1401
01:19:03,005 --> 01:19:06,807
 But it's your book, it's your
  work, it's your experiments.

1402
01:19:06,809 --> 01:19:10,111
Either you did it or you sold it
     or you didn't. Right?

1403
01:19:10,113 --> 01:19:12,980
       In the opinion of
   Harper's legal department,

1404
01:19:12,982 --> 01:19:15,916
  we don't have a supportable
   claim, not on the basis of

1405
01:19:15,918 --> 01:19:19,754
    copyright infringement,
  because the show is fiction.

1406
01:19:19,756 --> 01:19:22,156
   Are we finished with this?

1407
01:19:22,158 --> 01:19:24,792
 They gave me a consulting fee.
        Is that enough?

1408
01:19:25,794 --> 01:19:28,629
   Your father's turning into
     a fictional character.

1409
01:19:28,631 --> 01:19:30,664
        - Michele: Why?
          - Yes, why?

1410
01:19:30,666 --> 01:19:32,233
      And why do they have
      to make you a<i> goy</i> ?

1411
01:19:32,235 --> 01:19:34,702
       It's not about me.
    I'm just a springboard.

1412
01:19:34,704 --> 01:19:37,071
             - Why?
        - I don't know.

1413
01:19:37,073 --> 01:19:41,242
       Sasha: Oh, I see.
     So, you had no choice?

1414
01:19:41,244 --> 01:19:44,845
I could just give the money back
but they'd make the show anyway.

1415
01:19:44,847 --> 01:19:47,114
Why don't I give the money back?

1416
01:19:47,116 --> 01:19:49,683
   I'll give the money back!
      That's a good idea.

1417
01:19:49,685 --> 01:19:52,386
         You know what?
You don't have to be so snippy.

1418
01:20:02,564 --> 01:20:04,965
           - (buzzer)
   - They don't just come in

1419
01:20:04,967 --> 01:20:07,234
  and sadistically pull these
     switches, bing, bing,

1420
01:20:07,236 --> 01:20:10,404
  they have an inner struggle
          not to obey.

1421
01:20:11,940 --> 01:20:14,308
      Their inner pain is
     the evidence to that.

1422
01:20:14,310 --> 01:20:17,144
   Steven, what you're doing
       is very important,

1423
01:20:17,146 --> 01:20:19,580
     and I love the design.
        It's audacious.

1424
01:20:22,017 --> 01:20:23,284
              And?

1425
01:20:23,286 --> 01:20:27,488
I am being careful, which is why
  I've got tenure around here

1426
01:20:27,490 --> 01:20:29,824
       long before black
        became popular.

1427
01:20:30,792 --> 01:20:33,227
   It's tricky. Very tricky.

1428
01:20:33,229 --> 01:20:37,198
    There'll be criticism of
 anything breaking new ground.

1429
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:39,800
      There are times when
your life resembles a bad movie,

1430
01:20:39,802 --> 01:20:41,969
    but nothing prepares you
          if your life

1431
01:20:41,971 --> 01:20:43,604
  actually become a bad movie.

1432
01:20:43,606 --> 01:20:47,408
   Here's Dr. Steven Turner,
Steven/Stanley, Turner/Milgram,

1433
01:20:47,410 --> 01:20:51,679
    of Rutledge University,
     a bachelor and a WASP,

1434
01:20:51,681 --> 01:20:54,448
being played by William Shatner,

1435
01:20:54,450 --> 01:20:57,785
        four years after
  his last<i> Star Trek</i> episode<i> .</i>

1436
01:20:57,787 --> 01:21:01,222
Ossie Davis plays his colleague
        and best friend.

1437
01:21:02,190 --> 01:21:05,459
     I don't believe you're
     adequately considering

1438
01:21:05,461 --> 01:21:07,928
       faculty reaction.

1439
01:21:07,930 --> 01:21:11,398
 You may find yourself teaching
          in Siberia.

1440
01:21:24,179 --> 01:21:26,547
 This has to be somewhat weird
            for you.

1441
01:21:28,316 --> 01:21:31,852
   Well, I've made some films
        myself actually.

1442
01:21:31,854 --> 01:21:33,520
         Documentaries.

1443
01:21:33,522 --> 01:21:37,124
 I think Ossie may have meant,
   and I was wondering also,

1444
01:21:37,126 --> 01:21:41,962
   do you have a best friend
  who is, you know, a brother?

1445
01:21:42,931 --> 01:21:47,635
    I mean this tradition of
      a black best friend,

1446
01:21:47,637 --> 01:21:49,703
   where did that come from?

1447
01:21:49,705 --> 01:21:52,273
         You don't have
   a black best friend, Bill?

1448
01:21:52,275 --> 01:21:54,408
          No. Do you?

1449
01:21:55,343 --> 01:21:58,345
    This character isn't me.
    I'm just a springboard.

1450
01:21:58,347 --> 01:22:00,781
  Did you know I did the first
        interracial kiss

1451
01:22:00,783 --> 01:22:02,850
       in US TV history?

1452
01:22:02,852 --> 01:22:05,185
      Ah,<i> Star Trek,</i> sure.

1453
01:22:05,921 --> 01:22:08,989
I kissed Nichelle Nichols on
          network TV.

1454
01:22:09,557 --> 01:22:12,226
 Controversial, but you did it.

1455
01:22:12,861 --> 01:22:15,162
  The network was... nervous.

1456
01:22:15,864 --> 01:22:18,732
     They insisted we shoot
    an alternative version,

1457
01:22:18,734 --> 01:22:22,036
    but during the close up
         I did this...

1458
01:22:26,408 --> 01:22:29,543
       First time, 1968,

1459
01:22:29,545 --> 01:22:31,345
     in the history of TV.

1460
01:22:34,382 --> 01:22:37,251
        I've read about
   your experiments, Doctor.

1461
01:22:40,388 --> 01:22:42,856
         Did you happen
     to use any black folk?

1462
01:22:42,858 --> 01:22:44,625
   - Stanley: Yes, of course.
          - (clicking)

1463
01:22:47,662 --> 01:22:49,296
        And the results?

1464
01:22:49,298 --> 01:22:51,832
     They fared the same as
         everyone else.

1465
01:22:51,834 --> 01:22:54,301
 Roughly 65 percent compliant.

1466
01:22:54,303 --> 01:22:56,937
      You didn't force or
    threaten anyone, right?

1467
01:22:56,939 --> 01:22:59,173
             - No.
- You didn't twist anyone's arm?

1468
01:22:59,175 --> 01:23:02,176
       Didn't hold a gun
       to anyone's head?

1469
01:23:02,178 --> 01:23:05,412
You see, it brings to mind when
 I was six or seven years old,

1470
01:23:05,414 --> 01:23:07,481
    coming home from school.

1471
01:23:07,483 --> 01:23:10,284
   Two policemen call me over
        from their car.

1472
01:23:11,152 --> 01:23:13,387
     "Come over here, boy.

1473
01:23:13,389 --> 01:23:15,656
         Come on over."

1474
01:23:15,658 --> 01:23:18,125
    - Have I heard this one?
             - No.

1475
01:23:18,127 --> 01:23:20,060
    They tell me to get into
            the car,

1476
01:23:20,062 --> 01:23:23,364
        and they take me
    to the precinct station.

1477
01:23:23,366 --> 01:23:26,500
        Then one of them
   takes a jar of cane syrup

1478
01:23:26,502 --> 01:23:28,736
   and pours it over my head.

1479
01:23:28,738 --> 01:23:33,173
 And they both laugh like it's
the funniest thing in the world.

1480
01:23:33,675 --> 01:23:35,142
          I laugh too.

1481
01:23:36,511 --> 01:23:40,714
   Then they give me hunks of
 peanut brittle and let me go.

1482
01:23:42,017 --> 01:23:45,052
      It took me 30 years
     before I told anyone.

1483
01:23:46,421 --> 01:23:49,256
     Where was this, Ossie?
          Down South?

1484
01:23:49,258 --> 01:23:52,326
 Well, it doesn't matter where,
      and that's my point.

1485
01:23:52,328 --> 01:23:53,894
You don't have to go to Germany

1486
01:23:53,896 --> 01:23:56,196
         to learn about
    obedience to authority.

1487
01:23:56,198 --> 01:23:58,699
  This in the book. Actually,
    it's the tenth chapter,

1488
01:23:58,701 --> 01:24:01,969
- which very few people get to.
       - The Tenth Level.

1489
01:24:02,570 --> 01:24:06,140
       The agentic state,
    in which the demands of

1490
01:24:06,142 --> 01:24:07,941
  the democratically installed
           authority

1491
01:24:07,943 --> 01:24:09,543
   conflict with conscience.

1492
01:24:10,078 --> 01:24:11,979
    <i> The Banality Of Evil.</i>

1493
01:24:11,981 --> 01:24:14,114
          (bell rings)

1494
01:24:14,783 --> 01:24:18,085
  I don't take responsibility.
  Do you take responsibility?

1495
01:24:18,087 --> 01:24:21,255
     I take responsibility.
    Now count that as wrong.

1496
01:24:21,257 --> 01:24:22,723
  No response counts as wrong.

1497
01:24:22,725 --> 01:24:26,093
   You pull the switch then,
  dammit, you pull the switch.

1498
01:24:26,095 --> 01:24:28,295
Mr. Dahlquist, that's your job.

1499
01:24:29,864 --> 01:24:31,365
          No, I won't.

1500
01:24:31,367 --> 01:24:33,734
   Nobody can learn anything
           like this.

1501
01:24:35,236 --> 01:24:38,072
  There was a time, I suspect,
       when men and women

1502
01:24:38,074 --> 01:24:40,374
    could give a fully human
   response to any situation.

1503
01:24:40,376 --> 01:24:44,244
When we could be fully absorbed
 in the world as human beings.

1504
01:24:44,946 --> 01:24:46,747
      But more often, now,

1505
01:24:47,549 --> 01:24:50,117
    people don't get to see
      the whole situation

1506
01:24:50,119 --> 01:24:51,785
but only some small part of it.

1507
01:24:51,787 --> 01:24:55,322
  There's a division of labor,
  and people carry out small,

1508
01:24:55,324 --> 01:24:57,958
   narrow, specialized jobs,

1509
01:24:57,960 --> 01:25:01,795
 and we can't act without some
kind of direction from on high.

1510
01:25:02,931 --> 01:25:05,566
I call this "the agentic state".

1511
01:25:05,568 --> 01:25:08,235
     The individual yields
         to authority,

1512
01:25:08,237 --> 01:25:12,172
    and in doing so becomes
alienated from his own actions.

1513
01:25:13,108 --> 01:25:15,509
     Steven: Mr. Dahlquist,
    you agreed to the rules.

1514
01:25:15,511 --> 01:25:19,313
      The agentic state is
        "store policy".

1515
01:25:19,315 --> 01:25:21,782
 It's "I'm just doing my job."

1516
01:25:22,750 --> 01:25:25,185
    Or "That's not my job."

1517
01:25:25,187 --> 01:25:28,622
  Or "I don't make the rules."
    "We don't do that here."

1518
01:25:28,624 --> 01:25:32,392
    "Just following orders."
        "It's the law."

1519
01:25:32,394 --> 01:25:35,829
     In the agentic state,
 the individual defines himself

1520
01:25:35,831 --> 01:25:38,966
 as an instrument carrying out
     the wishes of others.

1521
01:25:38,968 --> 01:25:41,735
      A soldier, a nurse,
      an "administrator".

1522
01:25:41,737 --> 01:25:42,769
           An actor.

1523
01:25:42,771 --> 01:25:48,041
 A corporate employee, or even,
  yes, academics and artists.

1524
01:25:48,043 --> 01:25:51,879
       - Please continue.
       - Oh God. Oh God.

1525
01:25:52,580 --> 01:25:54,715
        - Mr. Dahlquist?
    - Just shut up a minute!

1526
01:25:55,750 --> 01:25:57,885
          Now hold on.

1527
01:25:58,887 --> 01:26:00,687
           (grunting)

1528
01:26:01,356 --> 01:26:04,825
   - Ossie: Come on, come on.
  - Dahlquist: Son of a bitch!

1529
01:26:04,827 --> 01:26:07,561
     A person has a choice.

1530
01:26:07,563 --> 01:26:10,797
       He or she chooses
       to become agentic.

1531
01:26:10,799 --> 01:26:13,167
 But once you assume the role,

1532
01:26:13,169 --> 01:26:15,502
     it's almost impossible
          to go back.

1533
01:26:17,272 --> 01:26:19,706
           - (buzzer)
            - Wrong.

1534
01:26:19,708 --> 01:26:22,075
           195 volts.

1535
01:26:22,077 --> 01:26:24,411
           - "Dance."
         - (man grunts)

1536
01:26:25,313 --> 01:26:27,214
<i>Let me out of here! Let me out!</i>

1537
01:26:27,216 --> 01:26:28,815
    Man 1: Continue, please.

1538
01:26:28,817 --> 01:26:30,050
   Stanley:<i> We always asked,</i>

1539
01:26:30,052 --> 01:26:31,752
      <i> "Is there anything</i>
    <i> the man could've said</i>

1540
01:26:31,754 --> 01:26:34,321
<i> to stop you from administering</i>
         <i> the shocks?"</i>

1541
01:26:34,323 --> 01:26:36,657
    <i> And they'd always say:</i>
   <i> "I don't think so. No."</i>

1542
01:26:36,659 --> 01:26:39,193
  Jim: (recording)<i> I told you</i>
  <i> I have a heart condition!</i>

1543
01:26:46,868 --> 01:26:48,168
            Michele.

1544
01:26:48,170 --> 01:26:50,504
    Sit up here. All right?

1545
01:26:53,675 --> 01:26:55,976
    Could we get a couple of
        hot chocolates?

1546
01:26:55,978 --> 01:26:57,511
     - You want chocolate?
         - Yes, please.

1547
01:26:57,513 --> 01:26:59,780
  - Hot chocolates all around?
         - Yeah, yeah.

1548
01:26:59,782 --> 01:27:02,683
     Do you want anything?
      OK, no, we're fine.

1549
01:27:03,384 --> 01:27:06,520
    I need you to stay put,
    stay in your seats. OK?

1550
01:27:16,864 --> 01:27:18,999
           I'm sorry.

1551
01:27:20,435 --> 01:27:23,737
I could say it a thousand times
    and mean it every time.

1552
01:27:25,440 --> 01:27:28,242
Marc, turn around in your seat.

1553
01:27:35,617 --> 01:27:37,284
            Piaget.

1554
01:27:40,188 --> 01:27:42,889
       You remember when
   I was translating Piaget?

1555
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:47,894
     I hit this line about
       child development.

1556
01:27:48,997 --> 01:27:53,834
  It's the specific point when
   the growing child is able

1557
01:27:53,836 --> 01:27:58,138
to recognize a gap between what
  exists and what might exist.

1558
01:27:58,140 --> 01:28:01,375
     And it occurred to me,
     we choose our reality

1559
01:28:01,377 --> 01:28:03,710
 when we choose another person.

1560
01:28:06,447 --> 01:28:09,116
      What does that mean?

1561
01:28:09,118 --> 01:28:11,218
   Marriage is not a fantasy.

1562
01:28:11,220 --> 01:28:15,422
         No, no, right.

1563
01:28:15,857 --> 01:28:17,391
             Right.

1564
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:21,495
      But it is a choice.

1565
01:28:23,131 --> 01:28:27,934
        You have to know
       that I choose you.

1566
01:28:29,737 --> 01:28:31,872
    Every day I choose you.

1567
01:28:44,218 --> 01:28:45,986
             1984.

1568
01:28:47,155 --> 01:28:49,289
  1984 was a big year for me.

1569
01:28:49,291 --> 01:28:51,591
    My lecture fees peaked,
      I was asked to speak

1570
01:28:51,593 --> 01:28:55,262
   all over the world, about
   the obedience experiments,

1571
01:28:55,264 --> 01:28:58,632
   of course, in relation to
    Orwell's prophetic book.

1572
01:28:58,634 --> 01:29:02,502
     A book that describes
      a totalitarian world

1573
01:29:02,504 --> 01:29:05,839
 where people aren't very good
  at thinking for themselves.

1574
01:29:12,947 --> 01:29:15,415
    ¶<i> Who can explain it?</i> ¶

1575
01:29:15,417 --> 01:29:18,118
    ¶<i> Who can tell you why</i> ¶

1576
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:20,954
   ¶<i> Fools give you reasons</i> ¶

1577
01:29:20,956 --> 01:29:27,861
     ¶<i> Wise men never try</i> ¶

1578
01:29:29,764 --> 01:29:33,700
     1984 was also the year
          that I died.

1579
01:29:44,379 --> 01:29:46,713
          <i> I was 51.</i>

1580
01:29:52,387 --> 01:29:56,323
   Excuse me? We need to see
     a doctor immediately.

1581
01:29:56,325 --> 01:29:59,426
      I'm Stanley Milgram.
         This is my ID.

1582
01:29:59,428 --> 01:30:02,095
      I believe I'm having
     my fifth heart attack.

1583
01:30:03,531 --> 01:30:05,599
      Dr. Heissenbuttel--

1584
01:30:05,601 --> 01:30:07,501
That's who treated me last time.

1585
01:30:07,503 --> 01:30:09,836
   You need to fill this out.

1586
01:30:09,838 --> 01:30:11,972
    The agentic personality.

1587
01:31:14,335 --> 01:31:16,903
 Stanley:<i> No one can truly know</i>
<i>what they might or might not do</i>

1588
01:31:16,905 --> 01:31:20,907
<i>when presented with the demands</i>
  <i> of a particular situation.</i>

1589
01:31:20,909 --> 01:31:24,211
<i> In 2008, a professor at Santa</i>
 <i> Clara University replicated</i>

1590
01:31:24,213 --> 01:31:28,048
<i> the obedience experiments and</i>
<i> got roughly the same results.</i>

1591
01:31:28,050 --> 01:31:31,952
 Over<i> 60 percent of volunteers</i>
  <i> delivered the full shocks.</i>

1592
01:31:31,954 --> 01:31:34,754
   <i> In 2010, the experiments</i>
       <i> were duplicated</i>

1593
01:31:34,756 --> 01:31:37,023
 <i> on a French reality TV show,</i>

1594
01:31:37,025 --> 01:31:39,826
      <i> Le Jeu de la Mort,</i>
      <i> The Game of Death.</i>

1595
01:31:39,828 --> 01:31:43,497
<i> Participants were egged on by</i>
   <i> a live studio audience.</i>

1596
01:31:43,499 --> 01:31:45,565
     <i> Over 80 percent went</i>
         <i> all the way.</i>

1597
01:31:47,134 --> 01:31:49,269
         (siren blares)

1598
01:31:54,041 --> 01:31:56,843
  <i> Alexandra Milgram, Sasha,</i>

1599
01:31:56,845 --> 01:31:59,513
     <i> continues to live in</i>
   <i> the apartment we shared</i>

1600
01:31:59,515 --> 01:32:03,049
<i>in Riverdale. Our children live</i>
     <i> with their children</i>

1601
01:32:03,051 --> 01:32:05,185
   <i> near Boston and Toronto.</i>

1602
01:32:05,987 --> 01:32:08,121
    <i> Sasha never remarried.</i>

1603
01:32:13,628 --> 01:32:16,062
<i> The obedience experiments are</i>
     <i> cited and discussed</i>

1604
01:32:16,064 --> 01:32:20,133
 <i> in nearly every introductory</i>
<i> psychology textbook worldwide.</i>

1605
01:32:21,269 --> 01:32:23,436
<i> My obedience film is screened</i>

1606
01:32:23,438 --> 01:32:26,640
   <i> for every incoming class</i>
        <i> at Westpoint.</i>

1607
01:32:26,642 --> 01:32:30,176
  <i> And my methods and results</i>
  <i> continue to be challenged,</i>

1608
01:32:30,178 --> 01:32:32,012
      <i> scorned, debunked,</i>

1609
01:32:32,014 --> 01:32:35,448
<i>yet every time a new outrage is</i>
<i> unleashed out into the world,</i>

1610
01:32:35,450 --> 01:32:37,984
<i> sanctioned and systematic acts</i>
         <i> of violence,</i>

1611
01:32:37,986 --> 01:32:41,421
  <i> the obedience experiments</i>
  <i> re-enter the conversation,</i>

1612
01:32:41,423 --> 01:32:43,790
    <i> reframing unanswerable</i>
          <i> questions.</i>

1613
01:32:45,192 --> 01:32:47,661
 <i> You could say we're puppets.</i>

1614
01:32:47,663 --> 01:32:53,466
  <i> But I believe that we are</i>
   <i> puppets with perception,</i>

1615
01:32:53,468 --> 01:32:55,135
       <i> with awareness.</i>

1616
01:32:55,137 --> 01:33:00,240
<i>Sometimes we can see the strings</i>
        <i> and, perhaps,</i>

1617
01:33:00,242 --> 01:33:04,077
<i>our awareness is the first step</i>
      <i> in our liberation.</i>