WEBVTT FILE
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Downloaded from
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YTS.MX
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Hello. Hi.
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Hello. About your book,
if you could call me back...
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on my mobile. Thank you.
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00:00:32.160 --> 00:00:34.840
Please, hello, can you call me?
It's about your book.
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Thank you.
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Hello, hi, good afternoon.
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If you can call me,
I'm the subject of your book.
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Thank you.
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He was the number one
source of Israeli intelligence.
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Few agents in history provided such...
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splendid information.
Out of this world.
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The Israelis believe
that he was their man,
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but he tricked the Israelis
into taking him seriously.
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He served Egypt well.
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What were the implications
of the spy being a double?
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Ashraf Marwan was...
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the son of an army general,
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and people see in that
a sign of social seniority.
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He graduated in chemistry.
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At the same time...
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he met Mona,
daughter of Gamal Abdel Nasser...
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President in Egypt.
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They fell in love.
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He knew how...
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to jump to the good bed.
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He married the daughter of Nasser.
The almighty Nasser.
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Nasser was like God for the Arabs.
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Idol.
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Nasser.
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Israel crippled the Egyptian Air Force
on the ground.
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And then, Egypt lost the Sinai Peninsula.
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Egypt felt disbelief that this
could happen to us.
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It was a dent in the dignity
of the country,
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and the process of rebuilding
the army started
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for one objective, launching a war,
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regaining the Sinai,
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and regaining the sense of pride
which every Egyptian felt...
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before 1967.
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Nasser, he felt that this guy
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did not want to marry the girl
for her personality,
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he wanted to marry the daughter
of the President.
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So, Nasser gave Ashraf Marwan
a junior position in the presidency.
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It was like when you have
adversary politician,
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you bring him close to keep him
under your eye,
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rather than leave him free
to wreak havoc.
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Ashraf felt in a way demeaned, punished,
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and made him resent Nasser.
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So, he came to London with his new wife.
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But reports back home...
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indicated that he was loving
an expensive lifestyle,
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nightclubs,
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restaurants,
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living beyond the means...
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of the ordinary Egyptians.
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Nasser shunted them back to Cairo.
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Ashraf felt that he was handcuffed
with Nasser.
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Immediately after
the Six-Day War of '67...
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the issue of a possible war
down the road with Egypt...
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was the number one priority of the Mossad.
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Every country, every government
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has to deal with the intentions
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of our enemies,
and the more you know about it,
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the better you can prevent a war.
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So, military intelligence for the Mossad
was very, very important.
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The Mossad is responsible for...
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collection and special operations.
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This is not the CIA.
CIA deals with all the world.
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He has agent in South America,
in Africa,
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maybe in the Northern Pole,
I don't know.
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Ev-- All around the world.
Here, in Israel, it is focused.
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The arch enemies.
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Can you describe for me
your job, your role,
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when you were working in the field?
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No, I prefer not.
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So, '67, at that moment,
we started to look for intelligence
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that would either support, or...
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or the opposite, the issue of war
down the road with Egypt.
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Did you have any concerns
about the possible implications
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of unmasking a spy?
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What did your wife
have to say about all this?
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The big bosses
under the Nasser regime...
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they were...
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unsatisfied with Sadat.
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There was a kind of rebellion...
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...and...
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Something personal?
Or of a public nature?
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The truth is in the court's hands.
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And Sadat rewarded him.
He appointed Ashraf to be...
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the secretary of the Presidential Office.
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At the time, he was not 30 yet,
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and that is the youngest man
in the job ever.
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But knowing Ashraf Marwan,
every step is calculated
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to build for what comes after.
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Ronnie Bregman,
he wanted to make sure
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that he has the right name.
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but I told him, "Ronnie,
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I don't know the name,
but if I knew it I would not tell you."
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"I don't know the name,"
"Don't make me..."
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This was how it was done.
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And Ronnie said...
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"I know the name of the super spy."
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And I said, "Good for you,"
and he said...
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I was taken aback.
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As far as I remember,
I did not acknowledge it.
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How do you say the English saying?
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That butter would not melt in my mouth.
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Butter very much melts in my mouth.
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So, uh, when he approached me
with the name...
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it was some kind of an acknowledgement.
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Okay, so how did the Mossad
get involved with Ashraf Marwan?
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I was the head of Mossad in Europe.
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Somebody called.
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As soon as I heard the name,
it immediately rang a bell,
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but I said, "No, it cannot be
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that someone like him would come to us.”
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When recruiting a new agent,
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what are the risks to you, to the Mossad?
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To the Mossad, first that
he might be a double agent.
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Number two, he's a liar.
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And number three is that
he can surrender you,
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which is very dangerous.
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But being an intelligence officer,
if you are not...
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suspicious as part of your
culture and character,
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you stand a fair chance not
to be a successful intelligence officer.
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And in the case of walk-ins,
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it is even more important
to be suspicious.
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It was a gamble,
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because the difference
in cases like these...
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is between receiving the Medal of Honor
or facing disgrace.
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So, we improvised...
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against the official protocol.
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And we scheduled the meeting
at the hotel that same day.
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The conversation was short.
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He gave us authentic minutes
from meetings in Moscow...
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with the most high-ranking
Russian officials
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and the most high-ranking
Egyptian officials.
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To be a fly on the wall
in these kinds of meetings
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is the dream of any intelligence agent.
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My task was to go over the material
he provided,
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and we couldn't find anything
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which gave us any doubt
about his credibility.
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Okay, so what exactly
did you do to be certain?
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Listen, there's no point to...
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to... get into all the details, but...
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there was no one,
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or no one case, where anybody said,
explicitly,
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in a very determined way,
that he was not authentic.
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Why would Marwan,
now that Nasser was gone,
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and his ambition was being fulfilled,
he was the right-hand man
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-of the president...
-Yeah.
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Why would he want to sell secrets
to Israel?
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Everything the Israelis say
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suggests it was resentment
towards Nasser,
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hubris, money...
And that doesn't add up to me.
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You have to look at
the Ashraf Marwan angle.
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"I am a big shot."
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How did Marwan
spying for you work exactly?
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He accompanied Sadat...
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to meetings with leaders.
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He listened and was able to give us
the inside information.
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What was so valuable
about the information he gave you?
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It is very rare material.
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It was, in my opinion, an earthquake.
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It was...
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beautiful.
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Beautiful. Really.
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Ronnie, I've spoken to the Mossad
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and what they are telling me
is pretty compelling.
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Okay for sound?
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Ready?
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Ashraf Marwan, I believe that
he served Egypt well.
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He did it under instructions from Sadat,
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he did not do it out of his own free will.
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Albeit, he was prepared to play
the dangerous game.
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It was a holistic movement
within the country,
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everyone coming together
for one objective,
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launching a war, regaining the Sinai,
revitalizing the Arab world,
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and creating a new spirit
for the future.
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But knowing that the Israelis had
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weapons from the United States
and western countries,
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it had to have some cunning in the plan.
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And Sadat has played this
in the most perfect way.
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Sadat wanted a very convincing agent
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to feed information to the Israelis.
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Ashraf Marwan was the best actor
to play the part.
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Everything was, like, stage-managed
to the highest possible standard.
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They studied very well
the Israeli mentality
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to create the image to fool the Israelis.
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And he did not go to them on his knees.
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He went to them full of himself.
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The Ashraf Marwan angle...
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a playboy, fun-loving
with a sense of pride.
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"I am a big shot."
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And he was very successful
in convincing them
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that he is serious about working for them.
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Ashraf Marwan supplied the Israelis with
the Egyptian preparations for the war,
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but not complete,
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but the Israelis were very happy with
what he gave them.
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So, he was accepted.
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The information we got
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comes along once in a hundred years.
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And they call him the--
"the agent of the century."
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All under instructions from Sadat.
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There's this double agent theory
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and I would like your opinion.
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No other country in the world
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would allow this kind of material
to fall into the hands of their enemies.
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He's a traitor.
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He's just a simple traitor.
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That's it.
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How did the information
Marwan gave you
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influence your thinking?
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Marwan, he reported
one of the conditions for going to war...
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was long-range bombers.
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And the Russians,
they hesitated to provide
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the Egyptians deep bombing capabilities.
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So, the Israeli evaluators
of the intelligence
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were in the notion that
they are not going to fight us.
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On the 6th of October, 1973,
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the Egyptian units on the ground
were told, "Now!"
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Igniting their spirit
and mind and a will to win.
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The synagogue was full of people
all around here.
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We started seeing traffic on the streets.
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The army came.
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People were simply taken
onto the army vehicles.
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I can tell you, it was all chaos.
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They took five kilometers of Sinai,
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and they dug in,
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and they rebuffed everything.
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And actually, our defense minister, Dayan,
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came out on television
and talked to the nation,
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and explained to us that
the situation is bad indeed.
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The war is difficult.
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Very harsh collisions,
on the ground and in the sky.
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And we are fighting for our lives.
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When the war was over...
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...the Egyptian people
were extremely happy.
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Can I tell you something
which not many people know?
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During the 1973 war days,
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the rate of crime dwindled to zero.
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There was no crime.
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No offence at all, everyone...
united with everyone.
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The one goal they had was
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to regain their sense of pride
and dignity.
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Ashraf Marwan...
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...he enabled Egypt to gain
the surprise advantage.
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The Egyptians are adamant they
got the jump on you in '73,
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because Ashraf Marwan misled you.
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But it's just the opposite,
he didn't-- they didn't surprise us.
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They gave us an early alert.
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Before the war...
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Ashraf Marwan,
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he asked for a meeting,
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gave the code word: "chemicals."
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00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.120
And he told him,
"Tomorrow, I'll be in London.
258
00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:25.480
I want Zvika Zamir,
259
00:46:26.200 --> 00:46:28.680
the director of the Mossad, to come."
260
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:36.000
The meeting took place at about
ten o'clock p.m.
261
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:49.520
Zvika sat scribbling the essence
of the story.
262
00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:58.440
Zvika,
263
00:46:59.160 --> 00:47:02.560
he sent the early warning
to his personal assistant.
264
00:47:04.160 --> 00:47:06.280
It was disseminated to the...
265
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:09.200
...director of Military Intelligence.
266
00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:12.680
We could prepare ourselves...
267
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.240
for the attack.
268
00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:18.560
Ashraf, he gave the plan!
269
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:26.320
Wait a second...
270
00:47:28.080 --> 00:47:32.560
Ashraf said the war would start at sunset,
and yet the surprise attack was at two...
271
00:47:32.720 --> 00:47:34.000
Wasn't that misleading?
272
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:36.160
I'll answer it!
273
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:39.920
See, I saw the full report.
274
00:47:44.120 --> 00:47:45.520
The Syrians,
275
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:49.720
they wanted the attack to be
in the morning.
276
00:47:51.520 --> 00:47:55.280
On October the 2nd,
the Egyptian minister of war
277
00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:56.960
reached a compromise.
278
00:47:57.320 --> 00:47:58.320
"Okay...
279
00:47:58.480 --> 00:47:59.920
not sunset,
280
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:04.960
ten minutes to two o'clock, afternoon."
281
00:48:06.160 --> 00:48:10.640
Marwan,
he didn't know about the change.
282
00:48:11.520 --> 00:48:14.680
Because he was not in Egypt.
He went on a mission.
283
00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:09.640
-Well, he's wrong!
-Tell me what you really...
284
00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:11.080
Tell me what you really think!
285
00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:39.800
The impact of the surprise was, for me,
286
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:44.200
a thing that haunts me to this day.
287
00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:47.160
Certainly, I have anger.
288
00:56:48.040 --> 00:56:50.160
If we have someone like Marwan,
289
00:56:50.240 --> 00:56:56.040
who told us and warned us
a day before to prepare the army,
290
00:56:56.680 --> 00:57:00.320
our intelligence really fucked up.
291
00:57:07.560 --> 00:57:09.920
Of course, I'm angry. Very much so.
292
00:57:34.240 --> 00:57:35.160
After the war,
293
00:57:35.640 --> 00:57:38.240
there was an inquiry committee
294
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:42.200
for the failure
of the military intelligence.
295
00:57:55.120 --> 00:57:57.040
It was the responsibility
296
00:57:57.240 --> 00:57:59.320
of the head of
the Military Intelligence,
297
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:04.200
General Zeira, to give the alert,
and he did not.
298
00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.640
Eli Zeira, when he was asked,
299
00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:11.520
"Why you didn't do anything
300
00:58:11.600 --> 00:58:14.520
with such tremendous early warning?"
301
00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:20.160
he say, "I didn't want to bother
the chief of staff, he was busy."
302
00:58:53.200 --> 00:58:55.320
The inquiry committee,
303
00:58:57.320 --> 00:58:59.600
they concluded Eli Zeira...
304
00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:05.200
...bore the main responsibility
for the failure in the war.
305
00:59:06.640 --> 00:59:10.200
Eli Zeira was ousted from active service.
306
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:18.800
And he left the country.
He went with his family to the US.
307
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:25.240
About 13 years after the war,
Eli published his book.
308
00:59:26.680 --> 00:59:30.160
He came to the conclusion that Marwan
309
00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:36.880
was a double agent and his real employers
were the Egyptians and not the Israelis.
310
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:38.720
Eli Zeira,
311
00:59:39.280 --> 00:59:41.960
he want to find a scapegoat.
312
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:48.680
All the stories about the double agent,
313
00:59:49.120 --> 00:59:51.120
it stems from Eli Zeira.
314
00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:55.200
He want to justify himself.
315
00:59:56.080 --> 00:59:57.920
I am furious about him.
316
01:00:01.400 --> 01:00:02.680
What can I do?
317
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:33.440
What do you want to prove?
318
01:00:33.640 --> 01:00:36.480
I'll, uh-- I'll, uh--
I'll throw it away.
319
01:00:44.080 --> 01:00:46.400
Can you stop here? I'll tell you...
320
01:00:46.720 --> 01:00:47.560
off...
321
01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:42.920
Let's open up another chapter
of this conversation
322
01:09:43.040 --> 01:09:44.840
that will be published.
323
01:09:46.160 --> 01:09:48.120
Ashraf Marwan, Dr Ashraf Marwan...
324
01:09:48.240 --> 01:09:50.840
-You think he's a double agent.
-Yes.
325
01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:54.000
But everyone who checked up on the issue
says there is no chance in hell!
326
01:09:54.120 --> 01:09:56.800
They say he was not a double agent,
he was our agent.
327
01:10:06.720 --> 01:10:09.840
Regarding Marwan,
he gave us excellent information,
328
01:10:10.840 --> 01:10:15.280
right up until the time of war,
then he fucked us over.
329
01:10:18.160 --> 01:10:23.280
An interview with Commander Eli Zeira
here on this show about the Yom Kippur War
330
01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:26.440
made an earthquake
in the intelligence community.
331
01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:29.640
Head of the Mossad, Zvi Zamir,
answers back.
332
01:10:33.640 --> 01:10:36.760
He, Eli Zeira, is censoring information!
333
01:10:37.200 --> 01:10:39.680
He releases information that reflects,
334
01:10:39.760 --> 01:10:42.040
you know what,
his sick state of mind!
335
01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:36.880
Hello, hi.
336
01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:39.200
Hello. About your book,
if you could call me back...
337
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:40.880
on my mobile. Thank you.
338
01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:55.640
Please. Hello, can you call me?
339
01:14:55.760 --> 01:14:57.800
It's about your book. Thank you.
340
01:15:08.200 --> 01:15:09.080
Please.
341
01:15:09.280 --> 01:15:11.440
Hello, can you call me?
It's about your book.
342
01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:12.440
Thank you.
343
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:23.400
Hello, hi, good afternoon.
344
01:15:23.680 --> 01:15:25.400
If you could call me,
I'm the subject of your book.
345
01:15:25.520 --> 01:15:26.400
Thank you.
346
01:18:13.800 --> 01:18:19.360
This is one of the rare events
where people pay with their lives.
347
01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:21.920
He paid with his life,
348
01:18:23.240 --> 01:18:24.560
and he didn't deserve it.
349
01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:52.040
Eli had a clique
of journalists surrounding him.
350
01:19:52.560 --> 01:19:54.640
And among them, one historian.
351
01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:58.200
If you ask me,
and I'm not just saying this,
352
01:19:58.280 --> 01:20:00.080
these people are disgusting.
353
01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:01.600
Why?
354
01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:04.040
Because these people distort the truth.
355
01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:17.960
Yeah, the funeral.
356
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:24.320
They asked me,
"Okay, he got such an Egypt funeral.
357
01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:30.120
With all the leadership
coming with black suits.
358
01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:37.480
His widow stand there.
All the high echelon passed by her,
359
01:20:38.080 --> 01:20:40.280
kissing her or whispering..."
360
01:20:40.480 --> 01:20:45.240
They asked me,
"How could it be that this is a traitor?"
361
01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:49.560
I watched many mafia movies.
362
01:20:50.120 --> 01:20:53.840
When the mafia killed
one of their members,
363
01:20:53.920 --> 01:20:58.200
all the dons are passing
by the widow, whispering,
364
01:20:59.280 --> 01:21:02.320
"We will give you money,"
"We will give you money."
365
01:21:03.120 --> 01:21:06.080
The funeral of Ashraf Marwan...
366
01:21:07.040 --> 01:21:09.560
reminds me the same.
367
01:23:20.880 --> 01:23:26.760
Madame Mona,
what was the hardest moment in your life?
368
01:23:26.920 --> 01:23:28.080
Two moments...
369
01:23:29.600 --> 01:23:32.680
...the death of my father and my mother,
370
01:23:32.760 --> 01:23:34.400
and the loss of Ashraf.
371
01:23:34.960 --> 01:23:40.360
But at the end of the day,
as his wife, I lost him,
372
01:23:41.120 --> 01:23:43.600
but at the same time, I feel grateful
373
01:23:43.720 --> 01:23:47.560
that I could be with him
for 30 years.
374
01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:38.120
So if he was in touch with Israel,
375
01:24:38.280 --> 01:24:40.960
then it was out of orders
from the Egyptian side?
376
01:24:41.840 --> 01:24:47.160
This is not even to be questioned;
377
01:24:47.320 --> 01:24:52.000
I am not going to defend something
that I don't need to.
378
01:24:52.280 --> 01:24:56.160
This is something that I am sure of
100 percent,
379
01:24:56.240 --> 01:24:59.080
not even just 100 percent...
380
01:25:05.800 --> 01:25:07.880
Everyone fought in his or her way.
381
01:25:25.720 --> 01:25:28.240
Double is very hard to believe.
382
01:25:29.040 --> 01:25:31.920
In my opinion, he was ours.
383
01:28:14.640 --> 01:28:16.560
The fact that he is not ready to...
384
01:28:16.680 --> 01:28:19.200
face the real story and to...
385
01:28:19.760 --> 01:28:24.680
to have the courage and the guts
to say, "I was mistaken,"
386
01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:28.680
it's his problem with his conscience.
387
01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:35.920
Unmasking the name
of a human source,
388
01:28:36.760 --> 01:28:38.000
it's a sin.
389
01:28:40.080 --> 01:28:42.240
"Go to hell, bastard!"
390
01:28:42.760 --> 01:28:44.720
Really. "Go to hell, bastard!"
391
01:28:45.240 --> 01:28:46.360
"How dare you?"
392
01:28:48.000 --> 01:28:51.680
Because you don't
put in danger a human being
393
01:28:51.840 --> 01:28:54.800
because you want to be famous.