WEBVTT FILE

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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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MICHAEL:
James, are we keeping the
glasses on or off?

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CAMERAMAN:
The only issue is that because
they're bifocals

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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there's a line going through
his eyes.

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MICHAEL:
Do you need them on,
Justice Thomas?

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No.

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I wear them, that's my normal--

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I normally have glasses on.

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Not on the cover of your book.

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CLARENCE:
Well, except for the cover of my
book I normally wear--

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[laughs]

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MICHAEL:
Justice Thomas, how did you
decide you wanted

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to become a lawyer?

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You look around society
and you see, its laws.

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Laws affect everybody.

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If you're poor,
and you look at people

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like my grandfather,

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I think of when he came home
one day,

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and he was very upset,

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and he was taking a drink.

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He never took a drink in the
middle of the day.

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CLARENCE:
Well what had happened was,
he was driving the oil truck,

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a police officer stops him

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for having too many
clothes on,

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and that's ridiculous.

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He has no way of challenging
that.

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So the law, he ran into the law

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and he always
was afraid of that.

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You couldn't walk across certain
parks;

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you couldn't go to certain
schools;

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people's property being taken;
people taking advantage of him

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because they could say "The law
did this" or "Did that."

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So I decided I was going to go
to law school.

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Senator BIDEN:
Judge Thomas, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth,

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the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?

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Judge THOMAS:
I do.

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Senator BIDEN:
Please be seated.

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Let me look a little bit from
your life and history,

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you are somewhat an enigma.

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You have gone through many
changes in your life.

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Which brings us to the question:

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what is the real
Clarence Thomas like?

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Judge THOMAS:
The person you see
is Clarence Thomas.

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I don't know that I would call
myself an enigma.

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I am just simply different from
what people painted me to be.

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My earliest memories are those
of Pin Point, Georgia,

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a life far removed in space and
time from this room,

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this day and this moment.

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♪ Moon river ♪

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♪ Wider than a mile ♪

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♪ I'm crossing you in style ♪

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♪ Someday ♪

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♪ Oh ♪

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CLARENCE:
We were isolated.

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It was a community.

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You could see the river
from there.

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You hear of the song
Moon River,

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Johnny Mercer's from
Savannah.

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♪ Wherever you're goin', ♪

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♪ I'm goin' ♪

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CLARENCE:
I am descended from the west
African slaves

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who lived on the Barrier
Islands and in the low country

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of Georgia, South Carolina and
coastal northern Florida.

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In Georgia my people were
called Geechees,

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in South Carolina, Gullahs.

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It was just a distinctive
culture, it was West African.

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It had a mixture of English,
and other words,

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with kind of a diction that
was somewhat

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difficult to understand.

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(Geechee music)

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(♪)

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I know when I first went down to
Pin Point I said

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"Clarence, I can't understand
a word that they just said"

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because they talk in a dialect.

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So I just try to listen
and smile.

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CLARENCE:
I was born at home, right on
Shipyard Creek in 1948.

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My mother always I was too
stubborn to cry, and I guess

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that was a sort of indication of
the kind of person I would be.

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A middle child.

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My mother had all of us,
we think, before she was 20.

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And then she and my father
separated when I was a toddler.

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So I would have no
early memories of him.

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I have memories of other family
members, but he wasn't there.

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He wasn't among the family
members.

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[♪]

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CLARENCE:
Many of the men raked oysters

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during the winter,
and caught crabs,

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and fish in the spring
and summer.

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Their boats, which were called
bateaus,

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could be heard far away
in the marshes.

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They would slowly emerge from
the labyrinths

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of surrounding creeks and pull
up to the dock

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where the day's haul
was unloaded.

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The women picked crab; people
like my mother, and my relatives

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did that at the crab factory.

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And they also shucked oysters--
all of which is hard work.

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Well, when they were gone,
we were on our own.

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We were off on our adventures.

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[♪]

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We would catch minnows
in the creek.

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We would walk along the
water's edge,

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throwing oyster shells.

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Most people didn't have
store-bought toys.

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So, you had lots of old tires
that had gone bad.

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If you go back to the movie,
To Kill a Mockingbird--

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JEM FINCH:
You Ready?

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SCOUT FINCH:
Uh-huh, let her go.

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CLARENCE:
Scout, the young girl,

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when she is pushed into Boo
Radley's yard, she's in a tire.

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I have no idea how kids today
can have any idea

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what they were doing
with her inside a tire.

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We always did that.

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I remember years later reading
Huck Finn, and Tom Sawyer,

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and wondering what the fuss
was about.

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We had done a lot of
those things.

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One day I came home someone said
there had been a fire.

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And we get there, and this
little shack that we had

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all been living in was just
ashes and twisted tin.

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Everything that you ever knew in
life is just there,

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I mean it's smoldering.

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[♪]

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CLARENCE:
When I was a boy Savannah
was hell.

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My mother lived in one room in
an old tenement

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with an outdoor bathroom.

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That is the worst place
I've ever lived.

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And so, you had the contrast
between rural poverty,

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which is what we had in Pin
Point, which was very livable.

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And then you had urban squalor,
and that was horrible.

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Whenever you flushed the toilet,
or someone else flushed,

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it didn't actually go in
the sewer system.

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It went in somebody else's yard.

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My all encompassing word
is gross,

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I mean it was putrid.

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It was the smell
of raw sewage.

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There were these boards,
people would make these sort of

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makeshift paths to get across
the just,

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the gross wetness
in the back yard.

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Savannah is still
a segregated city.

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[♪]

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One of the major parks downtown
is a rectangle, Forsyth Park.

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You were never allowed to walk
to the interior of that park.

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That's how I figured out the
word "circumnavigate."

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You would walk around.

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You could not go across
the park.

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[♪]

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I was supposed to go to school
in the afternoons

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and my mother wasn't there to
make me go,

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because she had to go to
work, so I wandered

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the streets by myself.

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I was six.

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[♪]

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You were hungry, and didn't know
when you'd eat, and cold,

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and didn't know when you'd
be warm again.

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My mother had difficulty with
two little boys

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and working as a maid.

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So she asked my grandparents
for help.

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And my grandmother suggested
that she let--

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her raise these two boys.

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And one day, one Saturday
morning we w--, we woke up,

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and my mother said "Put all your
things in the grocery bag."

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And remember the paper grocery
bags in those days,

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and my brother took one, and
neither one was full.

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But we, all of our items, just
imagine everything you have

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in less than a paper bag.

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So, we took our grocery
bag each,

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and walked the couple of blocks
from Henry Lane,

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to East Thirty-Second Street.

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[♪]

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That was the longest, and
most significant journey

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I ever made, because it changed
my entire life.

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[♪]

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My grandfather was this myth.

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He was very stern.

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And he sat us there at the
kitchen table,

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and he said "Boys, the damn
vacation is over."

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And he said from then on it was
going to be

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"Rules and regulations" and
"Manners and behavior."

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Oh my goodness, and he meant it,
and he just explained what

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the rules were: my grandmother
was always right,

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that he was in charge.

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He made it very clear that it
was by grace that we were there

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- his grace.

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And the door in 1955 when we
went to live with him

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was swinging open, inward, and
if we didn't behave ourselves

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there'd be a day when
it would swing outward

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and we'd be asked to leave.

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They lived in this new house,
and it was beautiful.

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For us, it could have
been a palace.

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We had never been in a house
with a bathtub,

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beautiful white porcelain
toilet.

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My brother and I, one of our
activities was to flush

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that toilet every time
we had a chance.

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I mean we would walk by
and flush the toilet.

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And my grandfather said, he
would chastise us and said you,

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as he would say "You're runnin'
up my damn water bill."

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Beautiful, as we used to say
back then, modern kitchen

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with a refrigerator, etc.
and lots of food.

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And my grandmother would just
lavish you with those things.

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My grandmother was as sweet
as she could be

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she would always be
saintly.

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By the time we went to live with
my grandfather

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he was delivering fuel oil.

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The rule was: we got out of
school at 2:30;

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you had to be home, dressed,
and ready to be

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on the oil truck by 3:00.

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[♪]

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When you rode with him, he was
the professor.

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You could not initiate
a conversation,

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so you were constantly getting
this one-way input.

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He thought that we were destined
to have to work for everything

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because of what happened
in the Garden of Eden,

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and because of our fallen
nature; we would have to earn

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everything by the sweat
of our brow

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- that was biblical.

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And we would have to work from
sun to sun-- biblical.

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The philosophy of life that he
had came from biblical sources.

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On Christmas Day 1957, we went
to the place where

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he had grown up,
which we called the farm.

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[♪]

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The 60 acres had been passed
down
undivided from generation to

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generation as was customary with
land owned by Southern blacks.

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[♪]

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And every summer after that
we farmed.

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He thought that we needed to be
kept busy during the summer.

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And he didn't want us around our
no good friends in the city,

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and "That riff raff."

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He said idle hands were
the devil's workshop.

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Your time is dominated by labor

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and there's a lot of it,
from sun to sun.

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He started plowing with Cousin
Jack's horse, Lizzie,

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which was a very spirited
animal,

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and we would go running
behind them.

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We cut down trees, and he would
always do it manually,

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you didn't use a chainsaw,
you used a cross-cut saw.

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It seems like everything
was made to be doubly hard.

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You're a little kid you say
you can't do it.

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And he would just say
over and

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"Old man can't is dead,
I helped bury him".

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CLARENCE:
You're building a fence line.

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You had to learn how to stretch
barbed wire.

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If you did something stupid he
would say to you "You know what?

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If I could cultivate your head
down to the size of your brain,

244
00:17:33.452 --> 00:17:38.290
a peanut hull would make
you a sun hat."

245
00:17:38.290 --> 00:17:40.759
Now that's not exactly a
compliment.

246
00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:43.729
CLARENCE:
You had to learn
how to gut fish.

247
00:17:43.729 --> 00:17:48.333
You don't want to be there and
up to your eyebrow in scales

248
00:17:48.333 --> 00:17:50.803
and fish guts, and the smell.

249
00:17:50.803 --> 00:17:54.773
And then the accompaniments:
the flies, the gnats,

250
00:17:54.773 --> 00:17:57.709
the mosquitos etc.

251
00:17:57.709 --> 00:17:59.278
And you'd say would you want
to give up.

252
00:17:59.278 --> 00:18:02.781
And he said, "You can give out
but you can't give up."

253
00:18:02.781 --> 00:18:06.218
My grandmother would say like
"You should give them

254
00:18:06.218 --> 00:18:07.686
a compliment or do this."

255
00:18:07.686 --> 00:18:10.756
And he said "No, that's their
job to do it right."

256
00:18:14.493 --> 00:18:17.729
The family farm
and our unheated oil truck

257
00:18:17.729 --> 00:18:22.201
became my most important
classrooms,

258
00:18:22.201 --> 00:18:26.405
the schools in which my
grandfather passed on the wisdom

259
00:18:26.405 --> 00:18:30.275
he had acquired as an
ill-educated modestly successful

260
00:18:30.275 --> 00:18:33.345
black man in the deep south.

261
00:18:36.748 --> 00:18:43.856
My grandfather understood that
education was the key because

262
00:18:43.856 --> 00:18:46.825
he didn't have it, and that's
what held him back.

263
00:18:46.825 --> 00:18:51.296
And he said that he went to
third grade but school

264
00:18:51.296 --> 00:18:55.601
was three months out of the year
because you had to work.

265
00:18:55.601 --> 00:18:57.469
MICHAEL:
Could he read the Bible?

266
00:18:57.469 --> 00:19:00.873
He could he could make out
certain words in the Bible.

267
00:19:00.873 --> 00:19:05.544
When he got a portion of it,
like most of the,

268
00:19:05.544 --> 00:19:08.714
of the people I knew, most were
uneducated,

269
00:19:08.714 --> 00:19:11.250
and most were functionally
illiterate,

270
00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:13.785
and many were
totally illiterate.

271
00:19:13.785 --> 00:19:17.723
They would get a part of the
Bible that they would memorize

272
00:19:17.723 --> 00:19:22.394
or that they knew the story and
that would become apart

273
00:19:22.394 --> 00:19:24.363
of their lexicon.

274
00:19:26.865 --> 00:19:29.301
CLARENCE:
He had gone his own way
and converted

275
00:19:29.301 --> 00:19:32.371
to Roman Catholicism in 1949.

276
00:19:36.575 --> 00:19:39.211
It followed that Catholic
schools had to be

277
00:19:39.211 --> 00:19:44.716
better than public schools so he
sent my brother and me to one.

278
00:19:48.253 --> 00:19:50.289
Remember now I am seven
years old.

279
00:19:50.289 --> 00:19:55.427
My brother is six and he says
to us "You are going to go

280
00:19:55.427 --> 00:20:00.199
to school every day,
and if you are sick,

281
00:20:00.199 --> 00:20:03.969
you are still going,
and if you die, you will go.

282
00:20:03.969 --> 00:20:06.805
I will take your body
for three days and make sure

283
00:20:06.805 --> 00:20:09.608
you're not faking",
and he meant it.

284
00:20:09.608 --> 00:20:12.978
The thing about it is, it's one
thing if somebody says it,

285
00:20:12.978 --> 00:20:16.248
and you think they're
exaggerating.

286
00:20:16.248 --> 00:20:17.916
He wasn't that kind of guy.

287
00:20:17.916 --> 00:20:25.390
[♪]

288
00:20:25.390 --> 00:20:27.793
CLARENCE:
The Catholic schools were
very orderly.

289
00:20:27.793 --> 00:20:29.962
My brother used to say
"When you walked in there

290
00:20:29.962 --> 00:20:32.531
you could hear a gnat tiptoeing
across cotton."

291
00:20:32.531 --> 00:20:39.371
[♪]

292
00:20:39.371 --> 00:20:41.473
It was segregated.

293
00:20:41.473 --> 00:20:45.010
The nuns didn't much appreciate
the fact that blacks

294
00:20:45.010 --> 00:20:47.980
were treated that way.

295
00:20:47.980 --> 00:20:51.683
They were mostly Irish nuns, and
they were outspoken too.

296
00:20:51.683 --> 00:20:53.452
Oh God, I love it.

297
00:20:53.452 --> 00:20:56.421
They were on our side
from day one.

298
00:20:56.421 --> 00:21:06.498
[♪]

299
00:21:09.034 --> 00:21:11.270
You knew they loved you.

300
00:21:11.270 --> 00:21:12.838
And when somebody, when you
think somebody loves you

301
00:21:12.838 --> 00:21:16.708
and deeply cares about your
interests, somehow,

302
00:21:16.708 --> 00:21:20.746
they can get you to do
hard things.

303
00:21:20.746 --> 00:21:24.049
Sister Mary Virgilius,
my eighth-grade teacher,

304
00:21:24.049 --> 00:21:27.819
when she saw my entrance exam
scores to high school,

305
00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:34.326
she looks me in the eye in 1962
and says "You lazy thing you."

306
00:21:34.326 --> 00:21:36.295
In other words,
I was underachieving.

307
00:21:36.295 --> 00:21:40.032
It was actually accurate,
and I've never forgotten it.

308
00:21:44.770 --> 00:21:49.641
most dependable altar boys,
I had also been thinking about

309
00:21:49.641 --> 00:21:52.611
the possibility of becoming
a priest.

310
00:21:54.946 --> 00:21:58.417
A few months shy of my 16th
birthday I decided

311
00:21:58.417 --> 00:22:01.320
I wanted to enter
St. John Vianney,

312
00:22:01.320 --> 00:22:06.391
the diocesan minor seminary, to
prepare for the priesthood.

313
00:22:09.895 --> 00:22:13.665
So, I told my grandfather who
wasn't initially

314
00:22:13.665 --> 00:22:18.737
all that excited,
because it was expensive,

315
00:22:18.737 --> 00:22:22.574
and I remember when he took me
to the front porch,

316
00:22:22.574 --> 00:22:26.078
to have a talk,

317
00:22:26.078 --> 00:22:28.880
and I told him that I thought
I had a vocation,

318
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.649
and it would be great.

319
00:22:30.649 --> 00:22:33.085
And he said, "Well, if you go
you know you can't quit."

320
00:22:33.085 --> 00:22:43.362
[♪]

321
00:22:45.430 --> 00:22:49.401
I showed up one Sunday evening
with my grandfather.

322
00:22:49.401 --> 00:22:54.406
He drove me there and he dropped
me off, and then he left.

323
00:22:54.406 --> 00:22:57.642
And so I'm there by myself,
and I look around-

324
00:23:00.445 --> 00:23:05.650
I'm the new kid, so I'm the
outsider, and I'm black.

325
00:23:05.650 --> 00:23:07.386
So, obviously I didn't fit
right in.

326
00:23:07.386 --> 00:23:11.390
So, I was like "What the heck?"

327
00:23:13.792 --> 00:23:17.162
MICHAEL:
Did you have kind of a fear of
failure, in the early days?

328
00:23:17.162 --> 00:23:20.832
It's a new world in every way.

329
00:23:20.832 --> 00:23:23.635
It's a foreign world.

330
00:23:23.635 --> 00:23:27.706
And the work level,
the work is much more demanding.

331
00:23:27.706 --> 00:23:32.677
So obviously that would create
the sense in you

332
00:23:32.677 --> 00:23:38.917
that I may not be able to, to
live up to the expectation.

333
00:23:38.917 --> 00:23:46.925
[♪]

334
00:23:46.925 --> 00:23:51.930
Father Coleman said to me that
I would not be considered

335
00:23:51.930 --> 00:23:55.934
the equal of whites
if I didn't learn

336
00:23:55.934 --> 00:23:59.571
how to speak standard
English.

337
00:23:59.571 --> 00:24:05.544
As much as it hurt,
there was some truth to it.

338
00:24:05.544 --> 00:24:10.048
I'm some place between
my dialect,

339
00:24:10.048 --> 00:24:13.685
and quote unquote
talking "Southern."

340
00:24:13.685 --> 00:24:18.690
But certainly nothing close to
standard English.

341
00:24:18.690 --> 00:24:24.095
But internally, I vowed
to learn English,

342
00:24:24.095 --> 00:24:29.000
and that no one would be able to
ever say that about me.

343
00:24:34.473 --> 00:24:39.244
CLARENCE:
We were doing Robert Frost and
we came across this poem:

344
00:24:39.244 --> 00:24:42.781
"Two roads diverged in a wood,
and I took the one

345
00:24:42.781 --> 00:24:46.785
less traveled by, and that has
made all the difference."

346
00:24:46.785 --> 00:24:56.862
[♪]

347
00:25:01.233 --> 00:25:06.671
And what I was thinking was;
someplace in my life

348
00:25:06.671 --> 00:25:10.976
the roads had split off,
I was no longer in the world

349
00:25:10.976 --> 00:25:12.978
that was my comfort zone.

350
00:25:12.978 --> 00:25:23.054
[♪]

351
00:25:23.054 --> 00:25:27.993
I had gone to the seminary,
I had gone to all-white schools

352
00:25:27.993 --> 00:25:30.529
and then it's made all the
difference.

353
00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:32.063
What was that difference?

354
00:25:32.063 --> 00:25:33.732
That, I didn't know.

355
00:25:35.133 --> 00:25:37.202
I was never going to be a part
of that world;

356
00:25:37.202 --> 00:25:39.604
I was never going to be white.

357
00:25:39.604 --> 00:25:41.740
The problem is I could never go
back completely

358
00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:43.675
to the world I came from.

359
00:26:00.225 --> 00:26:02.894
I loved the contemplative life.

360
00:26:02.894 --> 00:26:07.299
I loved Lauds, which was
the morning prayers,

361
00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:09.801
vespers, evening prayers.

362
00:26:09.801 --> 00:26:12.137
I loved the Gregorian chant.

363
00:26:21.713 --> 00:26:24.215
Academically, I did very well.

364
00:26:29.154 --> 00:26:32.757
MICHAEL:
So what was the caption
alongside your photo?

365
00:26:32.757 --> 00:26:37.762
CLARENCE:
I think it's "Blew that test,
only a 98."

366
00:26:37.762 --> 00:26:41.166
Here was my thinking,
you assume you're going to be

367
00:26:41.166 --> 00:26:43.969
discriminated against,

368
00:26:43.969 --> 00:26:46.705
or at the very least you're
not going to

369
00:26:46.705 --> 00:26:49.841
be treated the same way
as whites.

370
00:26:49.841 --> 00:26:55.213
So, I can't get a 98.

371
00:26:55.213 --> 00:26:57.649
And if I'm going to force
someone to have to

372
00:26:57.649 --> 00:27:02.988
discriminate against me, then
I have to have a hundred.

373
00:27:02.988 --> 00:27:06.291
In other words, leave them
nothing but race,

374
00:27:06.291 --> 00:27:12.897
to force them. It's sort of
like, checkmate.

375
00:27:12.897 --> 00:27:14.132
OK?

376
00:27:18.737 --> 00:27:20.639
In those days the Catholic
church

377
00:27:20.639 --> 00:27:23.775
had little to say about racism.

378
00:27:23.775 --> 00:27:26.878
It seemed self-evident that the
treatment of blacks

379
00:27:26.878 --> 00:27:31.916
in America cried out for the
unequivocal condemnation

380
00:27:31.916 --> 00:27:34.252
of a righteous institution.

381
00:27:34.252 --> 00:27:38.890
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR:
Well, there may be some
tear gassing ahead.

382
00:27:38.890 --> 00:27:42.360
I say to you this afternoon that
I would rather die on the

383
00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:46.197
highways of Alabama than make
a butchery of my conscience.

384
00:27:51.002 --> 00:27:54.072
POLICE:
See that they turn around
and disperse.

385
00:28:05.784 --> 00:28:09.020
CLARENCE:
Yet,
the church remained silent

386
00:28:09.020 --> 00:28:14.759
and its silence haunted me.

387
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:16.761
I prayed for guidance in the
presence

388
00:28:16.761 --> 00:28:18.763
of the Blessed Sacrament

389
00:28:18.763 --> 00:28:20.131
but instead
of comfort I found

390
00:28:20.131 --> 00:28:22.333
only sorrow and confusion.

391
00:28:28.073 --> 00:28:30.942
One day we were sitting in
class, I don't know,

392
00:28:30.942 --> 00:28:35.880
maybe history class, or
something.

393
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:41.319
People pass notes from time to
time, so I get a note;

394
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:46.725
the note said "I like Martin
Luther King",

395
00:28:46.725 --> 00:28:48.226
and then you open up,
it's a small note,

396
00:28:48.226 --> 00:28:53.031
you open up the inside, and it
just had the word, dead.

397
00:28:53.031 --> 00:28:58.036
You have a range of emotions:
disappointment, anger.

398
00:28:58.036 --> 00:28:59.304
You want to lash out.

399
00:28:59.304 --> 00:29:00.772
You want to yell.

400
00:29:03.441 --> 00:29:06.978
In the spring, when I was
walking back into the hall.

401
00:29:06.978 --> 00:29:09.914
Someone was down watching TV,
and he yelled out

402
00:29:09.914 --> 00:29:13.351
from the basement as I was
walking in the dorm.

403
00:29:13.351 --> 00:29:17.188
He said "Martin Luther
King has just been shot."

404
00:29:17.188 --> 00:29:20.859
NEWSCASTER:
Dr. King was standing on the
balcony of a second-floor

405
00:29:20.859 --> 00:29:22.927
hotel room tonight when,

406
00:29:22.927 --> 00:29:25.897
according to a companion,
a shot was fired from

407
00:29:25.897 --> 00:29:27.899
across the street.

408
00:29:27.899 --> 00:29:33.204
CLARENCE:
And the seminarian in front of
me said "That's good.

409
00:29:33.204 --> 00:29:35.240
I hope the son of a bitch dies."

410
00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:37.242
And that was pretty much
the end of me.

411
00:29:37.242 --> 00:29:38.910
That was it.

412
00:29:38.910 --> 00:29:42.413
Because that was the opposite of
what I thought you said

413
00:29:42.413 --> 00:29:45.884
about a man of God
and what a seminarian,

414
00:29:45.884 --> 00:29:47.552
or the church, should do.

415
00:29:47.552 --> 00:29:52.557
To the extent that I had any
ambivalence, it ended that day.

416
00:29:52.557 --> 00:29:55.960
The priesthood had been my only
goal, and when that went away

417
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.364
it was like I was in a free
fall.

418
00:29:59.364 --> 00:30:05.370
So anyway I, I go home,
and now I face my grandfather.

419
00:30:05.370 --> 00:30:09.841
GINNI THOMAS:
As Clarence tells me about going
to his grandfather to tell him

420
00:30:09.841 --> 00:30:14.946
he was quitting the seminary it
probably was the hardest point

421
00:30:14.946 --> 00:30:20.285
of his life, to tell that man
that he was disappointing him.

422
00:30:24.522 --> 00:30:26.558
And I'd like to say, "It was
facing the music",

423
00:30:26.558 --> 00:30:28.126
but it wasn't music.

424
00:30:28.126 --> 00:30:34.933
It was a stony silence almost,
and it was a coldness.

425
00:30:34.933 --> 00:30:39.103
So he took me
to the living room,

426
00:30:39.103 --> 00:30:43.007
and he said that, as he had
promised when we came to live

427
00:30:43.007 --> 00:30:47.278
in '55, 1955, the door opened
inward then,

428
00:30:47.278 --> 00:30:49.347
now it was opening outward.

429
00:30:49.347 --> 00:30:51.583
And I was to
leave his house if I was,

430
00:30:51.583 --> 00:30:57.355
since I had made decisions of
a man, I should live like one.

431
00:30:57.355 --> 00:31:03.094
And he said, I will never
forget, "To-day, this day."

432
00:31:03.094 --> 00:31:04.562
I think I was fumbling around,
I said

433
00:31:04.562 --> 00:31:06.231
"Well, are you still going to
help me with college?"

434
00:31:06.231 --> 00:31:09.601
He said "No. You're a man.
You figure it out."

435
00:31:14.272 --> 00:31:18.543
CLARENCE:
Where could I go?
What would I do?

436
00:31:18.543 --> 00:31:23.147
First the seminary, then the
country,

437
00:31:23.147 --> 00:31:27.151
now the only real home
I'd ever known.

438
00:31:27.151 --> 00:31:29.153
All were crashing around me.

439
00:31:29.153 --> 00:31:39.230
[♪]

440
00:31:43.568 --> 00:31:47.238
My mother had an extra room in
her apartment,

441
00:31:47.238 --> 00:31:50.341
so I went over there.

442
00:31:50.341 --> 00:31:53.077
MICHAEL:
I think you've said it felt like
you were reversing

443
00:31:53.077 --> 00:31:54.913
your first walk to your
grandfather's.

444
00:31:54.913 --> 00:32:00.318
Yeah, I was going from 1955,
I had come to

445
00:32:00.318 --> 00:32:03.554
this wonderful place that
was a sanctuary,

446
00:32:03.554 --> 00:32:06.991
and now I was going back
to live with my mother

447
00:32:06.991 --> 00:32:08.526
in her apartment.

448
00:32:08.526 --> 00:32:13.097
NEWSCASTER 1:
Washington, Chicago, Boston,
New York, these are

449
00:32:13.097 --> 00:32:16.000
just a few of the cities in
which the negro anguish

450
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:20.638
over Dr. King's murder expressed
itself in violent destruction.

451
00:32:20.638 --> 00:32:24.943
CLARENCE:
Summer of '68 was when you had
a lot of the riots,

452
00:32:24.943 --> 00:32:27.378
I mean I thought everything was
coming apart

453
00:32:27.378 --> 00:32:30.315
NEWSCASTER 2:
Some buildings were put to the
torch while the looters

454
00:32:30.315 --> 00:32:34.319
stripped block after block of
stores along 7th Street.

455
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:38.723
CLARENCE:
I was getting ready for work and
I was listening to the radio

456
00:32:38.723 --> 00:32:40.291
while I did that.

457
00:32:40.291 --> 00:32:43.461
NEWSCASTER:
Oh my God. Senator
Kennedy has been shot.

458
00:32:48.032 --> 00:32:50.535
CLARENCE:
And they announced that he had
been assassinated.

459
00:32:50.535 --> 00:32:56.441
Well I mean, I dropped to my
knees, I said "it's over."

460
00:32:56.441 --> 00:32:58.276
Bad things were happening.

461
00:32:58.276 --> 00:33:00.511
My grandfather had kicked
me out.

462
00:33:00.511 --> 00:33:04.515
I remember sitting there,
"Kennedy, King, Kennedy."

463
00:33:04.515 --> 00:33:07.051
"KKK" I remember writing it.

464
00:33:07.051 --> 00:33:08.519
Oh my God, there it is!

465
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:10.688
'KKK'you know.

466
00:33:10.688 --> 00:33:15.393
And it was, it was, that was
probably the last straw.

467
00:33:15.393 --> 00:33:18.429
I mean, I didn't need a last
straw but that was it.

468
00:33:18.429 --> 00:33:20.999
That was the nail
in the coffin for me.

469
00:33:26.170 --> 00:33:31.509
And for the first time in my
life racism and race

470
00:33:31.509 --> 00:33:33.011
explained everything.

471
00:33:33.011 --> 00:33:37.715
It became, sort of,
the substitute religion;

472
00:33:37.715 --> 00:33:41.352
I shoved aside Catholicism and
now it was this,

473
00:33:41.352 --> 00:33:43.354
it was all about race.

474
00:33:43.354 --> 00:33:52.063
[♪]

475
00:33:52.063 --> 00:33:55.633
Every southern black had known
such moments and felt the rage

476
00:33:55.633 --> 00:33:58.669
that threatened to burn through
the mask of meekness

477
00:33:58.669 --> 00:34:04.809
and submission behind which we
hid our true feelings.

478
00:34:04.809 --> 00:34:06.411
I'm angry with my grandfather.

479
00:34:06.411 --> 00:34:09.347
I'm angry with the church.

480
00:34:09.347 --> 00:34:10.515
If it's a warm day, I'm angry.

481
00:34:10.515 --> 00:34:12.316
If it's a cold day, I'm angry.

482
00:34:12.316 --> 00:34:17.088
I'm sort of flying, lashing out
at every single thing.

483
00:34:17.088 --> 00:34:20.191
Nothing is right.

484
00:34:20.191 --> 00:34:22.226
I'm staying in
a room with a mynah bird,

485
00:34:22.226 --> 00:34:25.663
with my mother,
with her two big dogs.

486
00:34:25.663 --> 00:34:29.534
But the one out, that I do have,

487
00:34:29.534 --> 00:34:33.304
is that I was accepted
to Holy Cross.

488
00:34:33.304 --> 00:34:37.642
I've got one door is open, only
one, and that was Holy Cross.

489
00:34:53.391 --> 00:34:57.862
GINNI THOMAS:
When he left the seminary and
found his way to Holy Cross,

490
00:34:57.862 --> 00:35:05.837
he was entering society that
was in turmoil,

491
00:35:05.837 --> 00:35:09.774
and he found his way to other
blacks at Holy Cross

492
00:35:09.774 --> 00:35:13.277
who were very radical
and Marxist.

493
00:35:13.277 --> 00:35:20.218
[♪]

494
00:35:20.218 --> 00:35:22.787
We're supposed to be
revolutionaries.

495
00:35:22.787 --> 00:35:27.592
So you go to the local army navy
store in Worcester,

496
00:35:27.592 --> 00:35:32.296
and you get army fatigues,
and boots.

497
00:35:32.296 --> 00:35:34.332
Why that was the dress is beyond
me,

498
00:35:34.332 --> 00:35:38.202
but that's the way we dressed.

499
00:35:38.202 --> 00:35:41.906
I wore carpenter's pants,
and bib overalls.

500
00:35:47.378 --> 00:35:49.280
STOKELY CARMICHAEL:
We are going to shoot the cops
who are shooting

501
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.517
our black brothers in the back
in this country!

502
00:35:56.521 --> 00:35:59.390
We were for anybody who was kind
of, in your face.

503
00:35:59.390 --> 00:36:03.361
It could be Stokely Carmichael,
it could be H. Rap Brown.

504
00:36:03.361 --> 00:36:06.364
H RAP BROWN:
The brothers in here maintain
that they will stay here until

505
00:36:06.364 --> 00:36:09.934
the university is
willing to talk on their terms.

506
00:36:09.934 --> 00:36:13.871
It could be Angela Davis,
it could be Huey Newton.

507
00:36:13.871 --> 00:36:17.942
So the more radical tended to be
the people we gravitated toward.

508
00:36:21.546 --> 00:36:26.651
Art Martin decided to start a
black student union, and he had

509
00:36:26.651 --> 00:36:31.389
some ideas, but I could type.
I said "I'll type it up."

510
00:36:31.389 --> 00:36:35.226
I had my trusty Smith-Corona
typewriter

511
00:36:35.226 --> 00:36:36.594
with automatic return.

512
00:36:36.594 --> 00:36:37.795
I said
"What do you want in it?"

513
00:36:37.795 --> 00:36:40.731
He said
"anything you put in it."

514
00:36:40.731 --> 00:36:44.235
So I typed it up and that became
the Black Student Union.

515
00:36:46.304 --> 00:36:50.908
MICHAEL:
When did you first meet Kathy
Ambush, and what was she like?

516
00:36:50.908 --> 00:36:55.713
CLARENCE:
I met her in my sophomore year.

517
00:36:55.713 --> 00:36:58.783
Our politics overlapped,
our politics tended to be

518
00:36:58.783 --> 00:37:01.819
more radical, to the left.

519
00:37:01.819 --> 00:37:04.889
We started dating, and would
date throughout my time

520
00:37:04.889 --> 00:37:06.324
at Holy Cross.

521
00:37:09.794 --> 00:37:14.498
When I would go back home, the
exchanges with my grand father

522
00:37:14.498 --> 00:37:18.769
were really horrible.

523
00:37:18.769 --> 00:37:21.806
Because I'd talk about the
revolution, and I would

524
00:37:21.806 --> 00:37:25.443
be drinking, and would, and
wouldn't comb my hair,

525
00:37:25.443 --> 00:37:28.813
and it was bad.

526
00:37:28.813 --> 00:37:31.682
And he looked at me would say
and he "I didn't raise

527
00:37:31.682 --> 00:37:33.484
you to be like this."

528
00:37:38.556 --> 00:37:45.630
"After all our sacrifices,
this is what you've become."

529
00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:50.568
I thought he was weak.

530
00:37:50.568 --> 00:37:54.872
And he thought I was,
I'd gone up north and become,

531
00:37:54.872 --> 00:37:57.508
as he said, "one of those damn
educated fools."

532
00:37:57.508 --> 00:38:00.278
That I went up north and they
put all that foolishness

533
00:38:00.278 --> 00:38:02.313
in my head.

534
00:38:02.313 --> 00:38:07.285
And my brother who came from the
Vietnam War didn't like it.

535
00:38:07.285 --> 00:38:12.790
CLARENCE:
He told me that all of us should
leave the country.

536
00:38:12.790 --> 00:38:14.025
MICHAEL:
All you radicals?

537
00:38:14.025 --> 00:38:16.827
All of us should leave
the country.

538
00:38:16.827 --> 00:38:21.999
He had no use for any of us.

539
00:38:21.999 --> 00:38:25.803
CLARENCE:
But I went right back to
my radical friends.

540
00:38:25.803 --> 00:38:27.705
In the spring of 1970 I was one

541
00:38:27.705 --> 00:38:31.676
of several Black Students Union
members who went to Boston

542
00:38:31.676 --> 00:38:36.080
to take part in an anti-war
rally.

543
00:38:36.080 --> 00:38:39.450
The organizers of the rally
urged us to march to

544
00:38:39.450 --> 00:38:42.386
Harvard square to protest the
treatment

545
00:38:42.386 --> 00:38:46.757
of America's domestic
political prisoners.

546
00:38:46.757 --> 00:38:50.728
Off we went chanting
"Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh."

547
00:38:50.728 --> 00:38:53.397
And demanding freedom
for Angela Davis,

548
00:38:53.397 --> 00:38:57.635
Erica Huggins and anyone
else we could think of.

549
00:38:57.635 --> 00:39:02.673
On the way to Cambridge we
stopped at this liquor store,

550
00:39:02.673 --> 00:39:08.012
and this poor guy, he saw us,
and he gave us the liquor.

551
00:39:08.012 --> 00:39:11.015
I think he gave us some
potato chips, or something, too.

552
00:39:11.015 --> 00:39:13.684
But he said "just go."

553
00:39:13.684 --> 00:39:16.354
And then on the way we consumed
this liquid courage, you know?

554
00:39:17.922 --> 00:39:23.461
Then we proceeded to be back and
forth in Cambridge all night.

555
00:39:23.461 --> 00:39:28.466
I mean there was teargas,
sirens, it was bad.

556
00:39:28.466 --> 00:39:38.542
[♪]

557
00:39:46.817 --> 00:39:53.457
getting hurt, or anything else,
or what was happening

558
00:39:53.457 --> 00:39:55.126
to other people.

559
00:39:57.962 --> 00:40:01.098
I got back to campus at
4 in the morning,

560
00:40:01.098 --> 00:40:04.635
horrified by what I had just
done.

561
00:40:04.635 --> 00:40:08.005
I had let myself be swept
up by an angry mob

562
00:40:08.005 --> 00:40:13.077
for no good reason other than,
that I too was angry.

563
00:40:16.914 --> 00:40:20.418
I stopped in front of the chapel
and prayed for the first time

564
00:40:20.418 --> 00:40:25.556
in nearly 2 years.

565
00:40:25.556 --> 00:40:29.593
I asked God, I said "If you take
anger out of my heart,

566
00:40:29.593 --> 00:40:32.663
I'll never hate again."

567
00:40:37.034 --> 00:40:40.471
And that was the beginning of
the slow return

568
00:40:40.471 --> 00:40:42.540
to where I started.

569
00:40:42.540 --> 00:40:52.616
[♪]

570
00:41:02.560 --> 00:41:10.067
[♪]

571
00:41:10.067 --> 00:41:13.571
CLARENCE:
You know what Yale was back in
the 1970s.

572
00:41:13.571 --> 00:41:19.243
Yale was, four generations
of Groton and, and

573
00:41:19.243 --> 00:41:26.951
Phillips Exeter, and "my
father's grandfather was here."

574
00:41:26.951 --> 00:41:32.990
And there were secret societies,
and all that sort of stuff.

575
00:41:32.990 --> 00:41:35.659
It was a different world,
and it was a world that

576
00:41:35.659 --> 00:41:39.730
I didn't quite understand.

577
00:41:39.730 --> 00:41:46.103
When Jamal was born in February
of my second year of law school.

578
00:41:46.103 --> 00:41:49.006
It woke me up about the
direction that we were

579
00:41:49.006 --> 00:41:51.742
headed in in our country,
and what the prospects

580
00:41:51.742 --> 00:41:53.811
would be for him.

581
00:41:59.250 --> 00:42:02.553
I watched busing on TV, and
busing was a big deal,

582
00:42:02.553 --> 00:42:05.589
remember because it was
so violent in Boston.

583
00:42:05.589 --> 00:42:09.527
NEWSCASTER:
By federal court order a fleet
of buses was hired to transport

584
00:42:09.527 --> 00:42:11.629
black students to all white
schools,

585
00:42:11.629 --> 00:42:13.831
and whites to black
neighborhoods.

586
00:42:13.831 --> 00:42:16.133
Coming to South Boston,
a traditionally conservative

587
00:42:16.133 --> 00:42:19.603
and Irish enclave,
blacks who made

588
00:42:19.603 --> 00:42:22.873
the trip were met with cat
calls, curses and worse.

589
00:42:22.873 --> 00:42:29.079
[♪]

590
00:42:32.950 --> 00:42:37.988
CLARENCE:
I'd been to South Boston,
and I was scared to death

591
00:42:37.988 --> 00:42:41.292
to be over there,

592
00:42:41.292 --> 00:42:45.629
and the schools were as
bad as the schools in Roxbury

593
00:42:45.629 --> 00:42:47.898
where the black kids were from.

594
00:42:47.898 --> 00:42:50.334
So why were you sending a kid
through all that trouble,

595
00:42:50.334 --> 00:42:53.304
to go to school that's as bad,
or worse?

596
00:42:53.304 --> 00:42:55.072
That didn't make any
sense to me.

597
00:42:55.072 --> 00:42:59.176
Someone has a theory, and then
they insert human beings

598
00:42:59.176 --> 00:43:06.050
You know sort of like
"have theory, add people."

599
00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:08.319
You know, it's like, instant,

600
00:43:08.319 --> 00:43:11.155
instant coffee or something.

601
00:43:11.155 --> 00:43:12.189
"Have coffee."

602
00:43:12.189 --> 00:43:13.824
"Add water."

603
00:43:15.693 --> 00:43:18.796
But I knew one thing, nobody was
going to have

604
00:43:18.796 --> 00:43:22.366
some social experiment and throw
my son in there.

605
00:43:22.366 --> 00:43:32.643
[♪]

606
00:43:32.643 --> 00:43:40.851
In law school, I would describe
myself as a lazy libertarian.

607
00:43:40.851 --> 00:43:43.253
And it was because I was looking
at structures,

608
00:43:43.253 --> 00:43:45.222
or restrictions on me.

609
00:43:45.222 --> 00:43:48.292
Whether there were religious
restrictions, or structures or

610
00:43:48.292 --> 00:43:51.195
strictures on me.

611
00:43:51.195 --> 00:43:56.166
My grandfather and his rules,
society and its rules,

612
00:43:56.166 --> 00:43:58.736
and I guess in a sense,
I was saying

613
00:43:58.736 --> 00:44:01.872
"all of you leave me alone."

614
00:44:01.872 --> 00:44:06.677
In fact, my mantra, when I was
in
law school, is "leave me alone."

615
00:44:08.412 --> 00:44:11.281
BOARD MEMBER 1:
Mr. Roark, the commission
is yours.

616
00:44:11.281 --> 00:44:12.750
MICHAEL:
Were you influenced by

617
00:44:12.750 --> 00:44:14.952
Ayn Rand's
libertarian philosophy?

618
00:44:14.952 --> 00:44:17.221
CLARENCE:
You know, Ayn Rand and
Fountainhead started

619
00:44:17.221 --> 00:44:20.424
and this would play out later
in law school.

620
00:44:20.424 --> 00:44:25.095
BOARD MEMBER 2:
We want you to
adapt your building like this.

621
00:44:25.095 --> 00:44:26.964
BOARD MEMBER 1:
And we must always compromise
with the general taste

622
00:44:26.964 --> 00:44:28.832
Mr. Roark, you understand
that I'm sure.

623
00:44:28.832 --> 00:44:31.935
HOWARD ROARK:
No.

624
00:44:31.935 --> 00:44:34.371
If you want my work you must
take it as it is or not at all.

625
00:44:34.371 --> 00:44:38.208
CLARENCE:
And so, when you read these
books, you say "Yeah, OK.

626
00:44:38.208 --> 00:44:42.780
I'll become a day laborer rather
than be told what to do."

627
00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:44.915
BOARD MEMBER 3:
Roark, this is sheer insanity
can't you give in just once?

628
00:44:44.915 --> 00:44:46.383
After all, you have to live.

629
00:44:46.383 --> 00:44:51.355
BOARD MEMBER 3:
How else?
Don't you have to work?

630
00:44:51.355 --> 00:44:57.194
HOWARD ROARK:
I'd rather work as
a day laborer if necessary.

631
00:44:57.194 --> 00:45:00.297
CLARENCE:
I would rather total failure in
your world than to be told

632
00:45:00.297 --> 00:45:04.935
what to do, or to be made to do
something that I think is wrong.

633
00:45:09.707 --> 00:45:15.379
Yale was the end of the line,
and I made it through.

634
00:45:15.379 --> 00:45:18.482
So, I really wanted my
grandfather to be there to

635
00:45:18.482 --> 00:45:24.788
witness the end, to witness that
the kid that he took in in 1955,

636
00:45:24.788 --> 00:45:26.924
crossed the finish line.

637
00:45:26.924 --> 00:45:33.097
[♪]

638
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.005
My grandfather did not come.

639
00:45:42.005 --> 00:45:44.441
He always had a reason.

640
00:45:44.441 --> 00:45:48.879
And you know, I think in
sort of, I think he was upset

641
00:45:48.879 --> 00:45:51.115
with me,
I could understand that.

642
00:45:51.115 --> 00:45:55.185
And I certainly had not given
him many good reasons to have

643
00:45:55.185 --> 00:45:59.223
any deep, and warm or fuzzy
feelings about me,

644
00:45:59.223 --> 00:46:01.825
or my graduation.

645
00:46:01.825 --> 00:46:05.062
So, nobody could come.

646
00:46:05.062 --> 00:46:13.270
That was probably more difficult
for me, and embittered me,

647
00:46:13.270 --> 00:46:15.139
more than anything else.

648
00:46:17.775 --> 00:46:23.347
I interviewed for jobs in D.C.,
Atlanta, New York, L.A.,

649
00:46:23.347 --> 00:46:29.787
with anyone,
anywhere who might hire me.

650
00:46:29.787 --> 00:46:33.557
If you were black, and you were
at Yale, the presumptions

651
00:46:33.557 --> 00:46:36.160
were quite different
than, if you were white.

652
00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:38.862
So if you're white,
and you graduated from Yale,

653
00:46:38.862 --> 00:46:40.531
the presumption is what?

654
00:46:40.531 --> 00:46:44.168
It is that you are really among
the best.

655
00:46:44.168 --> 00:46:48.338
On the other hand, if you're
black and you're there,

656
00:46:48.338 --> 00:46:50.808
you didn't really quite
belong there.

657
00:46:50.808 --> 00:46:53.577
So, we'll discount that a bit.

658
00:46:53.577 --> 00:46:56.814
They can say 10 percent,
5 percent whatever.

659
00:46:56.814 --> 00:47:01.852
But the reality was the
discounted approach resulted in

660
00:47:01.852 --> 00:47:05.856
certainly me not being able
to get a job.

661
00:47:05.856 --> 00:47:08.058
MICHAEL:
But, eventually,
the Missouri Attorney General,

662
00:47:08.058 --> 00:47:10.527
Jack Danforth,
offered you a job.

663
00:47:10.527 --> 00:47:12.162
CLARENCE:
It was the only job offer I got.

664
00:47:12.162 --> 00:47:15.999
It was the quintessential
Hobson's choice.

665
00:47:15.999 --> 00:47:19.570
He went on to promise me
"Clarence, I promise you more

666
00:47:19.570 --> 00:47:23.540
work for less money,
than anybody in the country."

667
00:47:24.875 --> 00:47:29.847
The pay was ten thousand
eight hundred.

668
00:47:29.847 --> 00:47:34.117
The hardest part about taking
the job was,

669
00:47:34.117 --> 00:47:36.486
he was a Republican,

670
00:47:36.486 --> 00:47:41.024
and the idea of working for
a Republican

671
00:47:41.024 --> 00:47:43.894
was repulsive, at best.

672
00:47:43.894 --> 00:47:45.529
I was a registered Democrat.

673
00:47:45.529 --> 00:47:48.031
I was left wing.

674
00:47:48.031 --> 00:47:52.169
As nice as he was,
he was still a Republican.

675
00:47:53.403 --> 00:47:57.574
Putting that nicety aside,
I wound up going.

676
00:48:10.120 --> 00:48:13.390
Cases poured through there;
in those days

677
00:48:13.390 --> 00:48:17.895
the Attorney General's office
handled all the appeals

678
00:48:17.895 --> 00:48:20.964
from the local prosecutors
across the state.

679
00:48:22.099 --> 00:48:25.502
At the time, my thinking was
that all blacks

680
00:48:25.502 --> 00:48:27.137
were political prisoners.

681
00:48:27.137 --> 00:48:29.439
That's, that's sort
of the sophisticated level

682
00:48:29.439 --> 00:48:33.377
at which I looked at the
criminal justice system.

683
00:48:33.377 --> 00:48:36.513
I worried about what I would do,
when I got a case

684
00:48:36.513 --> 00:48:42.452
involving black defendants,
and then it happened.

685
00:48:42.452 --> 00:48:47.357
This guy was sitting on a bench,
or something,

686
00:48:47.357 --> 00:48:49.359
and this black woman comes by.

687
00:48:49.359 --> 00:48:51.295
He's black, she's black.

688
00:48:51.295 --> 00:48:53.297
She's got her two, or three,
year old kid in the car

689
00:48:53.297 --> 00:48:57.935
In those days, most people
didn't have air conditioning.

690
00:48:57.935 --> 00:48:59.536
So, the windows are down.

691
00:48:59.536 --> 00:49:02.706
He comes up to the car,
at the stop light,

692
00:49:02.706 --> 00:49:06.410
with an old style can opener,
with a point, puts it to

693
00:49:06.410 --> 00:49:10.614
the kid's neck, and forces his
way in the car,

694
00:49:10.614 --> 00:49:13.483
threatening the kid.

695
00:49:13.483 --> 00:49:16.586
And then he takes her to
a remote location,

696
00:49:16.586 --> 00:49:22.125
rapes and sodomizes her, and he
takes her to another location,

697
00:49:22.125 --> 00:49:25.629
and rapes and sodomizes
her again.

698
00:49:25.629 --> 00:49:29.299
This case was far from unusual.

699
00:49:29.299 --> 00:49:33.103
Blacks were responsible for
almost 80% of violent crimes

700
00:49:33.103 --> 00:49:36.673
committed against blacks,
and killed over 90%

701
00:49:36.673 --> 00:49:39.242
of black murder victims.

702
00:49:39.242 --> 00:49:45.315
For most people that would be
obvious, for me it was one of

703
00:49:45.315 --> 00:49:47.417
these road to Damascus
experiences.

704
00:49:51.722 --> 00:49:56.560
Jack Danforth got elected to the
Senate, and I had already

705
00:49:56.560 --> 00:49:59.663
been there two and a half years,
and I really wanted

706
00:49:59.663 --> 00:50:02.566
to move more toward business.

707
00:50:02.566 --> 00:50:04.668
I had better options now.

708
00:50:04.668 --> 00:50:14.011
[♪]

709
00:50:14.011 --> 00:50:20.650
It was a fine job but it was not
enough work for me.

710
00:50:20.650 --> 00:50:22.753
I had too much energy.

711
00:50:22.753 --> 00:50:26.590
They spoon-fed the work
and they parceled it out.

712
00:50:26.590 --> 00:50:29.593
I was used to the work
pouring in.

713
00:50:29.593 --> 00:50:33.663
My Grandfather's Son, I noticed
that Monsanto employed a number

714
00:50:33.663 --> 00:50:37.367
of talented blacks who should
have been moving up

715
00:50:37.367 --> 00:50:39.703
the corporate ladder
far more quickly.

716
00:50:39.703 --> 00:50:44.808
MICHAEL:
Did you go to speak to the
affirmative action manager?

717
00:50:44.808 --> 00:50:49.479
I confronted him about it and he
pulls out this EEO report

718
00:50:49.479 --> 00:50:51.348
with the numbers on it;
it was one of these

719
00:50:51.348 --> 00:50:55.519
computer print-outs, as though
those are people.

720
00:50:55.519 --> 00:50:58.288
You know he's not talking about
who is getting training,

721
00:50:58.288 --> 00:51:02.559
whose got mentors,
what assignments they have,

722
00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:04.628
who is getting promoted.

723
00:51:04.628 --> 00:51:07.731
He's got this report that he
shows to the labor department,

724
00:51:07.731 --> 00:51:09.766
and that is these
statistics.

725
00:51:09.766 --> 00:51:13.637
MICHAEL:
The affirmative action manager,
he was African American?

726
00:51:13.637 --> 00:51:15.372
Yes, yeah, mhm.

727
00:51:15.372 --> 00:51:17.474
MICHAEL:
He wasn't sympathetic?

728
00:51:17.474 --> 00:51:22.746
He was doing his job and his
reports said he was OK.

729
00:51:22.746 --> 00:51:26.650
MICHAEL:
He didn't care that these other
black managers were stalled?

730
00:51:26.650 --> 00:51:29.119
Well I don't know if he cared.

731
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:31.822
He was doing his job, and the
reports were OK.

732
00:51:31.822 --> 00:51:33.723
That's the most I got.

733
00:51:33.723 --> 00:51:36.693
But I just thought that
we're kidding ourselves.

734
00:51:36.693 --> 00:51:43.133
We're looking at numbers and the
numbers prove everything,

735
00:51:43.133 --> 00:51:46.570
and human beings are having
a lot of difficulties.

736
00:51:48.438 --> 00:51:50.774
CLARENCE:
I could feel the golden
handcuffs

737
00:51:50.774 --> 00:51:54.111
of a comfortable but
unfulfilling life snapping

738
00:51:54.111 --> 00:51:56.213
shut on my wrists.

739
00:51:56.213 --> 00:52:00.283
I had to quit now
or I never would.

740
00:52:05.322 --> 00:52:10.494
And shortly after that I get
a call from Senator Danforth

741
00:52:10.494 --> 00:52:13.530
to see if I would be interested
in working for him.

742
00:52:13.530 --> 00:52:23.607
[♪]

743
00:52:30.147 --> 00:52:33.550
RONALD REAGAN:
More than anything else I want
my candidacy

744
00:52:33.550 --> 00:52:38.288
to unify our country,
to renew the American spirit,

745
00:52:38.288 --> 00:52:40.657
and sense of purpose.

746
00:52:40.657 --> 00:52:42.893
CLARENCE:
In the fall of 1980 I had
decided

747
00:52:42.893 --> 00:52:45.162
to vote for Ronald Reagan.

748
00:52:45.162 --> 00:52:48.431
It was a giant step for
a black man.

749
00:52:48.431 --> 00:52:52.903
But I was distressed by
the Democratic party's promises

750
00:52:52.903 --> 00:52:57.407
to legislate the problems of
blacks out of existence.

751
00:52:57.407 --> 00:53:01.444
RONALD REAGAN:
I pledge to you to restore the
federal government the capacity

752
00:53:01.444 --> 00:53:06.349
to do the people's work without
dominating their lives.

753
00:53:06.349 --> 00:53:09.186
CLARENCE:
Reagan by contrast
was promising

754
00:53:09.186 --> 00:53:12.222
an end to the indiscriminate
social engineering

755
00:53:12.222 --> 00:53:14.291
of the 60's and 70's.

756
00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:21.598
Reagan won in a landslide.

757
00:53:21.598 --> 00:53:23.233
RONALD REAGAN:
So help me God.

758
00:53:23.233 --> 00:53:24.768
CHIEF JUSTICE:
May I congratulate you, Sir.

759
00:53:38.248 --> 00:53:40.417
CLARENCE:
For the first time
in my adult life

760
00:53:40.417 --> 00:53:42.919
Washington was full of serious
talk about

761
00:53:42.919 --> 00:53:45.288
the possibility of getting
government off the backs

762
00:53:45.288 --> 00:53:47.224
of the poor.

763
00:53:48.625 --> 00:53:50.760
THOMAS SOWELL:
This is really an historic
opportunity.

764
00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:53.697
The economic and social
advancement of blacks

765
00:53:53.697 --> 00:53:56.766
in this country is still
a great unfinished task.

766
00:53:56.766 --> 00:54:00.770
CLARENCE:
Tom Sowell invited me to this
conference.

767
00:54:00.770 --> 00:54:03.773
And it would be named the
Fairmont Conference

768
00:54:03.773 --> 00:54:10.013
because it was held at the
Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco.

769
00:54:10.013 --> 00:54:15.785
It was how do we rethink
the policies toward blacks

770
00:54:15.785 --> 00:54:19.489
in this country
in a new administration?

771
00:54:19.489 --> 00:54:22.726
THOMAS SOWELL:
Many social problems are
worsening,

772
00:54:22.726 --> 00:54:24.894
continued disintegration of
families

773
00:54:24.894 --> 00:54:26.830
CLARENCE:
I sat at this table.

774
00:54:26.830 --> 00:54:30.267
And there was a young
black reporter there.

775
00:54:30.267 --> 00:54:32.636
And I knew nothing
about the press.

776
00:54:32.636 --> 00:54:37.040
One question he asked me
was "why was I so interested

777
00:54:37.040 --> 00:54:38.775
in all these social issues?"

778
00:54:38.775 --> 00:54:41.911
And I explained to him because
of the destruction I saw

779
00:54:41.911 --> 00:54:45.048
it doing at home in Savannah.

780
00:54:45.048 --> 00:54:47.784
And as an example of that,
I used my sister and her

781
00:54:47.784 --> 00:54:53.790
kids being objects of these
programs.

782
00:54:56.059 --> 00:54:59.729
Little did I know, he would
write an article about this,

783
00:54:59.729 --> 00:55:01.965
and would turn it into
an op-ed.

784
00:55:01.965 --> 00:55:12.042
[♪]

785
00:55:12.042 --> 00:55:16.479
GINNI THOMAS:
The article by Juan Williams
became a point

786
00:55:16.479 --> 00:55:20.050
at which Clarence became
a public persona.

787
00:55:20.050 --> 00:55:30.327
[♪]

788
00:55:35.498 --> 00:55:38.968
Then license is given to others,
to attack you in whatever

789
00:55:38.968 --> 00:55:40.603
way they want to.

790
00:55:40.603 --> 00:55:42.906
You're not really black because
you're not doing

791
00:55:42.906 --> 00:55:45.008
what you expect black people
to do.

792
00:55:45.008 --> 00:55:49.813
You weren't supposed to oppose
busing; you weren't supposed

793
00:55:49.813 --> 00:55:51.448
to oppose welfare.

794
00:55:54.718 --> 00:56:00.623
MICHAEL:
Perhaps it marked a course
for you, Justice Thomas.

795
00:56:00.623 --> 00:56:03.093
CLARENCE:
Oh, I don't know if it marked
the course,

796
00:56:03.093 --> 00:56:05.662
but there was no going back.

797
00:56:05.662 --> 00:56:15.739
[♪]

798
00:56:25.682 --> 00:56:35.759
[♪]

799
00:56:50.173 --> 00:56:54.844
The Reagan administration was
running into the storm.

800
00:56:54.844 --> 00:56:57.847
Everything the president did,
he was called a racist.

801
00:56:57.847 --> 00:57:00.650
That was from the very
beginning.

802
00:57:00.650 --> 00:57:02.952
I was under constant attack.

803
00:57:02.952 --> 00:57:11.094
We have attempted in the last
2 years to remedy a wide range

804
00:57:11.094 --> 00:57:16.499
NEWSCASTER:
Congressman Barney Frank says he
remains skeptical of progress

805
00:57:16.499 --> 00:57:18.735
under the current
administration.

806
00:57:18.735 --> 00:57:23.673
RONALD REAGAN:
I'm pleased that this is also an
opportunity to acknowledge

807
00:57:23.673 --> 00:57:28.511
CLARENCE:
We have a positive record that
we should never back down from.

808
00:57:28.511 --> 00:57:31.881
That point is one that
I cannot stress enough.

809
00:57:31.881 --> 00:57:34.918
Any black misguided enough to
accept a job

810
00:57:34.918 --> 00:57:38.888
in the Reagan administration
was automatically branded

811
00:57:38.888 --> 00:57:40.890
an Uncle Tom.

812
00:57:42.592 --> 00:57:45.962
After I wrote a letter to the
editor of Playboy,

813
00:57:45.962 --> 00:57:49.899
taking issue with a 1986 article
by Hodding Carter,

814
00:57:49.899 --> 00:57:54.804
called "Reagan and the Revival
of Racism",

815
00:57:54.804 --> 00:57:59.742
Carter responded as follows:

816
00:57:59.742 --> 00:58:09.819
[♪]

817
00:58:17.627 --> 00:58:21.598
Not a single civil rights leader
objected to this

818
00:58:21.598 --> 00:58:24.667
nakedly racist language.

819
00:58:28.171 --> 00:58:30.173
MICHAEL:
On the personal side, your
marriage was strained

820
00:58:30.173 --> 00:58:31.708
at this point?

821
00:58:31.708 --> 00:58:34.210
It is one of those things and I
just I didn't think

822
00:58:34.210 --> 00:58:38.047
it was going to work.

823
00:58:38.047 --> 00:58:40.183
I think many people go
through that.

824
00:58:41.150 --> 00:58:45.922
But what do you think was
the reason in this case?

825
00:58:45.922 --> 00:58:51.528
I, the, it just wasn't there,
and I think that

826
00:58:51.528 --> 00:58:57.033
you have to be honest
with yourself, and not wait

827
00:58:57.033 --> 00:58:59.969
until it deteriorates,
or you do harm to somebody

828
00:58:59.969 --> 00:59:02.705
who did you no harm.

829
00:59:02.705 --> 00:59:05.675
MICHAEL:
I can imagine how difficult it
must have been,

830
00:59:05.675 --> 00:59:07.076
for all three of you.

831
00:59:07.076 --> 00:59:10.747
Yeah, it was--
You know, you live with it.

832
00:59:14.117 --> 00:59:16.586
CLARENCE:
Jamal came to live with me.

833
00:59:16.586 --> 00:59:18.588
His mother thought
it would be best

834
00:59:18.588 --> 00:59:21.658
for me to have primary
responsibility.

835
00:59:24.060 --> 00:59:27.630
Being with him, was my happy
place, being at home with him.

836
00:59:27.630 --> 00:59:36.105
[♪]

837
00:59:36.105 --> 00:59:40.076
MICHAEL:
How did you first hear
that your grandfather was dying?

838
00:59:40.076 --> 00:59:42.345
Well I had been,
I don't know why how we get

839
00:59:42.345 --> 00:59:45.014
so busy in D.C.

840
00:59:45.014 --> 00:59:50.253
I totally regret not going home
more, I just regret it.

841
00:59:53.289 --> 00:59:56.859
CLARENCE:
I was with my brother,
and um,

842
00:59:56.859 --> 00:59:59.762
he told me my grandfather
had died.

843
01:00:02.699 --> 01:00:04.701
And that was like,

844
01:00:04.701 --> 01:00:06.703
I think from then on
I was in a bit of a fog.

845
01:00:06.703 --> 01:00:08.371
It was really horrible.

846
01:00:13.176 --> 01:00:17.180
When I got to the funeral,
no sooner did the service begin

847
01:00:17.180 --> 01:00:21.884
than I started to weep
shamelessly and uncontrollably.

848
01:00:25.254 --> 01:00:30.727
was think of the things I wish
I had done differently.

849
01:00:30.727 --> 01:00:35.231
Why had I spent
so much time arguing with him?

850
01:00:35.231 --> 01:00:39.235
I would never be able to tell
him how right he'd been,

851
01:00:39.235 --> 01:00:43.740
or how much I admired
and loved him.

852
01:00:43.740 --> 01:00:51.214
[♪]

853
01:00:51.214 --> 01:00:54.317
Shortly after my
grandfather's death

854
01:00:54.317 --> 01:00:59.756
my grandmother had a stroke
while lying in bed.

855
01:00:59.756 --> 01:01:05.061
Within an hour or so,
she was dead.

856
01:01:05.061 --> 01:01:07.230
Certainly, it was like a trap
door,

857
01:01:07.230 --> 01:01:10.033
somebody opened the trap door,
and you fell through it.

858
01:01:10.033 --> 01:01:13.870
And there was no foundation.

859
01:01:13.870 --> 01:01:17.240
And by the time I went back to
Washington,

860
01:01:17.240 --> 01:01:19.909
I had thought
a lot more about things.

861
01:01:22.912 --> 01:01:30.086
I would go outside
and gaze at the Capitol Dome.

862
01:01:30.086 --> 01:01:32.422
So, I'm asking myself
why am I doing this?

863
01:01:32.422 --> 01:01:35.758
There is nothing positive going
on,

864
01:01:35.758 --> 01:01:38.127
and I am getting the heck beat
out of me.

865
01:01:38.127 --> 01:01:40.963
I had to then flip it around
a little bit.

866
01:01:40.963 --> 01:01:43.833
For what will you die?

867
01:01:43.833 --> 01:01:47.303
Is there something
in life that you will die for?

868
01:01:49.272 --> 01:01:52.075
What about your principles?

869
01:01:52.075 --> 01:01:56.212
So, I decided that the
principles

870
01:01:56.212 --> 01:01:58.948
on which I was raised,
my grandparents,

871
01:01:58.948 --> 01:02:00.983
the principles
of this country,

872
01:02:00.983 --> 01:02:03.920
were worth dying for.

873
01:02:08.925 --> 01:02:13.229
So what are these principles?

874
01:02:13.229 --> 01:02:17.066
I was interested in,
why this government?

875
01:02:17.066 --> 01:02:19.135
Why this government?

876
01:02:19.135 --> 01:02:20.970
Why not a parliamentary system?

877
01:02:20.970 --> 01:02:23.172
Why not a dictatorship?

878
01:02:23.172 --> 01:02:27.143
When Clarence was at EEOC,
one of the best things,

879
01:02:27.143 --> 01:02:28.945
looking back,
that he did

880
01:02:28.945 --> 01:02:32.982
was to hire two speech writers
who worked with him

881
01:02:32.982 --> 01:02:36.285
on reading founding documents,

882
01:02:36.285 --> 01:02:40.323
and understanding
American exceptionalism.

883
01:02:40.323 --> 01:02:46.796
So, John Marini
and Ken Masugi were anchors

884
01:02:46.796 --> 01:02:51.334
for what came out to be his
jurisprudence.

885
01:02:51.334 --> 01:02:56.773
And we would literally spend
hours discussing the founding.

886
01:02:56.773 --> 01:02:58.541
And then they would give me
reading materials,

887
01:02:58.541 --> 01:03:02.145
and we would write articles,
and we would go off to

888
01:03:02.145 --> 01:03:04.981
American Political Science
Association events,

889
01:03:04.981 --> 01:03:08.885
and argue with positivists,
and libertarians.

890
01:03:08.885 --> 01:03:09.919
Oh, gosh.

891
01:03:09.919 --> 01:03:11.387
It was, now that was a lot
of fun,

892
01:03:11.387 --> 01:03:17.293
in the sea of all this stuff.

893
01:03:17.293 --> 01:03:21.430
Thomas Jefferson had written
in 1776

894
01:03:21.430 --> 01:03:24.834
"All men are created
equal.

895
01:03:24.834 --> 01:03:26.502
They are endowed by their
creator

896
01:03:26.502 --> 01:03:30.139
with certain
unalienable rights."

897
01:03:30.139 --> 01:03:32.942
That's natural law
in a nutshell.

898
01:03:37.213 --> 01:03:39.949
How then could a country founded
on these principles

899
01:03:39.949 --> 01:03:43.986
have permitted slavery
and segregation to exist?

900
01:03:43.986 --> 01:03:47.290
The answer was that it couldn't,

901
01:03:47.290 --> 01:03:50.393
not without being untrue
to its own ideals.

902
01:03:50.393 --> 01:03:58.234
[♪]

903
01:03:58.234 --> 01:04:00.937
I was looking
for a way of thinking,

904
01:04:00.937 --> 01:04:04.974
a set of ideals
that fundamentally, at its core,

905
01:04:04.974 --> 01:04:08.911
said slavery is wrong,
at its core--

906
01:04:08.911 --> 01:04:11.013
which natural law
of course does.

907
01:04:11.013 --> 01:04:18.287
[♪]

908
01:04:20.289 --> 01:04:23.326
I was scheduled to go
up to New York to a meeting,

909
01:04:23.326 --> 01:04:26.295
and she happened to be there.

910
01:04:26.295 --> 01:04:30.066
GINNI THOMAS:
We met in 1986 at a conference

911
01:04:30.066 --> 01:04:33.169
on how long does America need
race preference policies

912
01:04:33.169 --> 01:04:34.871
to get over slavery.

913
01:04:34.871 --> 01:04:39.508
And his experiences were
so resonant, and so powerful,

914
01:04:39.508 --> 01:04:42.578
and so genuine.

915
01:04:42.578 --> 01:04:44.480
I was struck by him.

916
01:04:47.250 --> 01:04:51.654
CLARENCE:
She was a gift
from God that I had prayed for.

917
01:04:51.654 --> 01:04:53.990
And, you know then I was iffy,

918
01:04:53.990 --> 01:04:57.426
because I started questioning
God's package.

919
01:04:57.426 --> 01:04:58.995
You know,
like what are you doing?

920
01:04:58.995 --> 01:05:01.998
(Chuckles)

921
01:05:01.998 --> 01:05:04.066
You pray
for God to send you someone,

922
01:05:04.066 --> 01:05:07.904
he sends you someone,
and you say "Oh but she's white"

923
01:05:07.904 --> 01:05:08.971
or "she's younger."

924
01:05:08.971 --> 01:05:10.072
He's sent you someone.

925
01:05:10.072 --> 01:05:11.641
What are you talking about?

926
01:05:11.641 --> 01:05:13.142
So that was the end of that,

927
01:05:13.142 --> 01:05:18.547
and she has been a fabulous gift
from God.

928
01:05:18.547 --> 01:05:28.624
[♪]

929
01:05:43.239 --> 01:05:46.375
George H.W. Bush's transition
team

930
01:05:46.375 --> 01:05:51.247
asked if I would be interested
in becoming a federal judge?

931
01:05:51.247 --> 01:05:53.582
"That's a job for old people",
I said.

932
01:05:53.582 --> 01:05:59.622
I can't see myself spending the
rest of my life as a judge."

933
01:05:59.622 --> 01:06:02.425
They asked me to talk
to Larry Silberman

934
01:06:02.425 --> 01:06:05.461
who was a judge
on the D.C. Circuit.

935
01:06:05.461 --> 01:06:07.630
I said "Larry, I don't want
a lifetime appointment."

936
01:06:07.630 --> 01:06:09.198
He said "Clarence,
it's not slavery.

937
01:06:09.198 --> 01:06:12.234
You can leave
if you don't like it."

938
01:06:12.234 --> 01:06:21.344
[♪]

939
01:06:21.344 --> 01:06:23.746
But once I got
to the D.C. Circuit,

940
01:06:23.746 --> 01:06:25.348
I really enjoyed it.

941
01:06:25.348 --> 01:06:26.415
I enjoyed the work.

942
01:06:26.415 --> 01:06:28.584
I liked the people.

943
01:06:28.584 --> 01:06:31.454
Virginia worked across the
street from me.

944
01:06:31.454 --> 01:06:33.756
So we commuted in every day

945
01:06:33.756 --> 01:06:35.658
and we really enjoyed
our little house.

946
01:06:35.658 --> 01:06:37.660
We really enjoyed our projects.

947
01:06:37.660 --> 01:06:41.430
We enjoyed our anonymity,
and our time together.

948
01:06:41.430 --> 01:06:43.632
Here at home the search is on
for a Supreme Court nominee

949
01:06:43.632 --> 01:06:46.402
With the retirement
of Justice Thurgood Marshall.

950
01:06:46.402 --> 01:06:51.140
CLARENCE:
All I know is that
Justice Marshall retired,

951
01:06:51.140 --> 01:06:53.376
and that was a shock.

952
01:06:53.376 --> 01:06:55.378
So, I went to work
on Sunday,

953
01:06:55.378 --> 01:06:58.581
one of my law clerks was all up
in arms,

954
01:06:58.581 --> 01:07:01.217
and he says "Kennebunkport is
on the line."

955
01:07:01.217 --> 01:07:03.519
It was the president telling me
to come up on Monday,

956
01:07:03.519 --> 01:07:08.424
to have lunch to discuss this
Supreme Court thing.

957
01:07:08.424 --> 01:07:11.527
PRESIDENT BUSH:
I am very pleased to announce

958
01:07:11.527 --> 01:07:14.730
that I will nominate
Judge Clarence Thomas

959
01:07:14.730 --> 01:07:18.734
to serve as associate justice of
the United States Supreme Court.

960
01:07:18.734 --> 01:07:22.438
What do you say to critics who
say the only reason you're being

961
01:07:22.438 --> 01:07:25.775
picked is because you're black?

962
01:07:25.775 --> 01:07:28.077
I think a lot worse things have
been said.

963
01:07:28.077 --> 01:07:31.781
I disagree with that,
but I'll have to live with it.

964
01:07:31.781 --> 01:07:33.215
PRESIDENT:
Refer them to the President.

965
01:07:33.215 --> 01:07:34.583
[Laughter]

966
01:07:34.583 --> 01:07:36.185
How about that
for an answer?

967
01:07:36.185 --> 01:07:37.686
Well, I'll also say
I didn't make the selection.

968
01:07:37.686 --> 01:07:41.824
CLARENCE:
I mean the attacks started
immediately.

969
01:07:41.824 --> 01:07:44.794
And the things they accuse
you of--

970
01:07:44.794 --> 01:07:50.366
they accuse of everything
but murder, I guess.

971
01:07:50.366 --> 01:07:52.601
NEWSCASTER 1:
The Senate Majority Leader,
George Mitchell told reporters

972
01:07:52.601 --> 01:07:54.437
that the nomination shows that
President Bush

973
01:07:54.437 --> 01:07:56.238
is against quotas for every
position

974
01:07:56.238 --> 01:07:57.673
except the Supreme Court.

975
01:07:57.673 --> 01:08:00.509
NEWSCASTER 2:
Judge Thomas
praises Louis Farrakhan,

976
01:08:00.509 --> 01:08:04.113
the Black Muslim minister
notorious for his pro-Hitler,

977
01:08:04.113 --> 01:08:06.082
anti-Semitic rhetoric.

978
01:08:06.082 --> 01:08:09.118
NEWSCASTER 3:
Thomas' strict
Catholic education terrifies

979
01:08:09.118 --> 01:08:14.090
abortion rights groups afraid
of more abortion restrictions.

980
01:08:14.090 --> 01:08:18.294
MICHAEL:
Did you meet with the
board members of the NAACP?

981
01:08:18.294 --> 01:08:20.563
They said they were
going to be noncommittal,

982
01:08:20.563 --> 01:08:22.331
and were not going to oppose me.

983
01:08:22.331 --> 01:08:25.334
Well, shortly after that
they opposed me.

984
01:08:25.334 --> 01:08:29.138
His inconsistent views
on civil rights policies,

985
01:08:29.138 --> 01:08:32.174
which make him an unpredictable
element

986
01:08:32.174 --> 01:08:36.812
in an increasingly radical
and conservative court.

987
01:08:36.812 --> 01:08:38.581
And what I was told by friends,

988
01:08:38.581 --> 01:08:42.218
who gave me a copy
of the AFLCIO's letter to them,

989
01:08:42.218 --> 01:08:45.821
requiring them to oppose me.

990
01:08:45.821 --> 01:08:47.656
What I was told was that they
needed cover

991
01:08:47.656 --> 01:08:51.127
for the women's groups
to oppose me.

992
01:08:51.127 --> 01:08:54.163
So they needed the NAACP
out front.

993
01:08:54.163 --> 01:08:56.832
ACTIVIST:
Write your senators
and representatives,

994
01:08:56.832 --> 01:08:59.902
tell them Clarence Thomas is
unacceptable.

995
01:08:59.902 --> 01:09:02.738
He has indicated that he
believes in natural law

996
01:09:02.738 --> 01:09:06.175
and he does not believe
in privacy.

997
01:09:06.175 --> 01:09:09.345
We don't need a lot
of questions to be asked

998
01:09:09.345 --> 01:09:13.782
before we Bork this guy,
we simply immediately Bork him.

999
01:09:13.782 --> 01:09:16.152
CALL ROOM:
We want you to organize pickets
of their offices,

1000
01:09:16.152 --> 01:09:18.587
follow them from the airport
to their supermarket.

1001
01:09:18.587 --> 01:09:20.422
PATRICIA IRELAND:
There is substantial opposition
to Clarence Thomas.

1002
01:09:20.422 --> 01:09:23.926
His history of supporting
a judicial philosophy

1003
01:09:23.926 --> 01:09:25.694
that is really out
of step with the Bill of Rights

1004
01:09:25.694 --> 01:09:29.865
and the Constitution.

1005
01:09:29.865 --> 01:09:32.801
CLARENCE:
We know exactly what's
going on here,

1006
01:09:32.801 --> 01:09:35.905
and to pretend that it is
for some other reason, stop.

1007
01:09:35.905 --> 01:09:39.708
Do I have like "stupid" written
on the back of my shirt?

1008
01:09:41.177 --> 01:09:43.812
I mean, come on,
we know what this is all about.

1009
01:09:43.812 --> 01:09:45.481
This isn't about what they say
it's about,

1010
01:09:45.481 --> 01:09:47.583
so people should just tell the
truth.

1011
01:09:47.583 --> 01:09:49.318
This is the wrong black guy.

1012
01:09:49.318 --> 01:09:50.619
He has to be destroyed.

1013
01:09:50.619 --> 01:09:54.690
Then now at least we are honest
with each other.

1014
01:09:58.294 --> 01:10:00.763
[cameras clicking]

1015
01:10:08.437 --> 01:10:12.675
GINNI THOMAS:
He knew he was going into
the trial of his life

1016
01:10:12.675 --> 01:10:15.744
with the Senate run
by the Democrats.

1017
01:10:18.647 --> 01:10:21.717
SENATOR BIDEN:
The hearing will come to order.

1018
01:10:22.985 --> 01:10:26.255
GINNI THOMAS:
We knew it was
in the lion's den.

1019
01:10:28.524 --> 01:10:30.859
SENATOR BIDEN:
Good morning, Judge.

1020
01:10:30.859 --> 01:10:32.962
Welcome to the blinding lights.

1021
01:10:36.599 --> 01:10:39.702
Finding out what
you mean when you say

1022
01:10:39.702 --> 01:10:41.870
that you would apply the natural
law philosophy

1023
01:10:41.870 --> 01:10:44.940
to the Constitution is,
in my view,

1024
01:10:44.940 --> 01:10:48.544
the single most important task
of this committee.

1025
01:10:48.544 --> 01:10:51.247
MICHAEL:
Senator Biden was very
focused natural law.

1026
01:10:51.247 --> 01:10:56.385
Who knows, I have no idea
what he was talking about.

1027
01:10:56.385 --> 01:10:58.654
SENATOR BIDEN:
I just want to make sure we all
know

1028
01:10:58.654 --> 01:11:01.957
That you and I know, at least,
what we are talking about here.

1029
01:11:01.957 --> 01:11:06.795
There is a fervent and
aggressive school of thought

1030
01:11:06.795 --> 01:11:12.468
that wishes to see natural law
further inform the Constitution

1031
01:11:12.468 --> 01:11:17.706
Argued against by the
positivists, led by Judge Bork.

1032
01:11:17.706 --> 01:11:20.476
Now again, that may be lost
on all the people,

1033
01:11:20.476 --> 01:11:24.880
you know and I know
what we are talking about.

1034
01:11:24.880 --> 01:11:26.949
CLARENCE:
I have to be perfectly
honest with you.

1035
01:11:26.949 --> 01:11:30.986
You sit there, and you have
no idea

1036
01:11:30.986 --> 01:11:34.790
what they are talking about.

1037
01:11:34.790 --> 01:11:37.526
All I know is that he was asking
me these questions

1038
01:11:37.526 --> 01:11:42.331
Someone may apply
it in a way, like Moore,

1039
01:11:42.331 --> 01:11:46.402
who leads him in a direction
that is, quote, "liberal."

1040
01:11:46.402 --> 01:11:48.904
You may apply it in a way
that leads you in a direction

1041
01:11:48.904 --> 01:11:52.908
that is conservative,
or you may,

1042
01:11:52.908 --> 01:11:57.746
like many argue,
not apply it at all.

1043
01:11:57.746 --> 01:12:01.050
But it is a fundamental question

1044
01:12:01.050 --> 01:12:03.585
that is going to be
almost impossible

1045
01:12:03.585 --> 01:12:07.523
for non-lawyers to grasp
in an exchange,

1046
01:12:07.523 --> 01:12:11.060
but you know and I know
it is a big, big deal,

1047
01:12:11.060 --> 01:12:14.863
CLARENCE:
One of the things you do
in hearings

1048
01:12:14.863 --> 01:12:18.867
is you have to sit there
and look attentively at people

1049
01:12:18.867 --> 01:12:22.671
you know have no idea what
they're talking about.

1050
01:12:22.671 --> 01:12:24.540
And it was fine.

1051
01:12:24.540 --> 01:12:26.542
I understood what he was trying
to do.

1052
01:12:26.542 --> 01:12:29.445
I didn't really appreciate it.

1053
01:12:29.445 --> 01:12:33.082
Natural law was nothing more
than a way of tricking me

1054
01:12:33.082 --> 01:12:36.085
into talking about abortion,

1055
01:12:36.085 --> 01:12:39.021
since many Catholic moral
philosophers

1056
01:12:39.021 --> 01:12:43.058
saw the two things
as intimately related.

1057
01:12:43.058 --> 01:12:46.895
But my interest
in natural law was different.

1058
01:12:46.895 --> 01:12:51.734
SENATOR BIDEN:
Those who subscribe
to this moral-code view

1059
01:12:51.734 --> 01:12:53.736
of natural law
call into question

1060
01:12:53.736 --> 01:12:57.439
a wide range
of personal and family rights,

1061
01:12:57.439 --> 01:12:59.641
from reproductive freedom

1062
01:12:59.641 --> 01:13:03.112
to each individual's choice
over procreation.

1063
01:13:03.112 --> 01:13:12.521
[♪]

1064
01:13:12.521 --> 01:13:15.724
NEWSCASTER:
On day two, Judiciary committee
Democrats tried again,

1065
01:13:15.724 --> 01:13:17.126
but again couldn't convince
Clarence Thomas

1066
01:13:17.126 --> 01:13:19.061
of their need to know
how he would rule

1067
01:13:19.061 --> 01:13:22.064
on a woman's right to an
abortion.

1068
01:13:22.064 --> 01:13:27.136
REPORTER:
How are you?
Are you holding up okay?

1069
01:13:27.136 --> 01:13:29.538
NEWSCASTER:
Clarence Thomas signaled he is
holding up just fine

1070
01:13:29.538 --> 01:13:31.473
as he went before
the Senate Judiciary committee

1071
01:13:31.473 --> 01:13:32.741
for a third day.

1072
01:13:32.741 --> 01:13:36.578
Abortion, once again,
topped the agenda.

1073
01:13:36.578 --> 01:13:40.082
CLARENCE:
Most of my opponents
on the judiciary committee

1074
01:13:40.082 --> 01:13:41.884
cared about only one thing.

1075
01:13:41.884 --> 01:13:45.087
How would I rule
on abortion rights?

1076
01:13:45.087 --> 01:13:46.889
You really didn't
matter,

1077
01:13:46.889 --> 01:13:49.091
and your life didn't matter.

1078
01:13:49.091 --> 01:13:52.594
What mattered was
what they wanted,

1079
01:13:52.594 --> 01:13:56.865
and what they wanted was this
particular issue.

1080
01:13:56.865 --> 01:14:00.202
SENATOR LEAHY:
Have you ever had discussion of
Roe v. Wade,

1081
01:14:00.202 --> 01:14:04.506
other than in this room?

1082
01:14:04.506 --> 01:14:07.576
JUDGE THOMAS:
Only, I guess, Senator,
in the fact

1083
01:14:07.576 --> 01:14:10.012
that in the most general sense.

1084
01:14:10.012 --> 01:14:11.647
If you are asking me whether
or not

1085
01:14:11.647 --> 01:14:13.582
I have ever debated the
contents of it,

1086
01:14:13.582 --> 01:14:16.051
the answer to that is no,
Senator.

1087
01:14:16.051 --> 01:14:18.687
SENATOR LEAHY:
Well, with all due respect,
Judge,

1088
01:14:18.687 --> 01:14:23.025
I have some difficulty
with your answer.

1089
01:14:23.025 --> 01:14:27.029
You ask us to believe that an
intelligent and outspoken person

1090
01:14:27.029 --> 01:14:30.966
like yourself has never
discussed Roe v. Wade

1091
01:14:30.966 --> 01:14:33.735
with another human being?

1092
01:14:33.735 --> 01:14:36.805
MICHAEL:
They refused to believe you had
not discussed Roe v. Wade.

1093
01:14:36.805 --> 01:14:38.106
Well you know what?

1094
01:14:38.106 --> 01:14:39.508
They should--

1095
01:14:39.508 --> 01:14:41.743
They refuse to believe a lot
of things.

1096
01:14:41.743 --> 01:14:44.179
It's really--
Isn't that fascinating?

1097
01:14:44.179 --> 01:14:46.715
I had to,
I had to have discussed it

1098
01:14:46.715 --> 01:14:48.750
because they wanted me to had to
have discussed it.

1099
01:14:48.750 --> 01:14:51.887
It goes back to thing about
affirmative action.

1100
01:14:51.887 --> 01:14:53.956
You have to believe
in affirmative action,

1101
01:14:53.956 --> 01:14:56.492
because we think you ought to
believe in affirmative action.

1102
01:14:56.492 --> 01:14:59.528
Well how is that different
from slavery?

1103
01:14:59.528 --> 01:15:01.563
How is that different
from segregation?

1104
01:15:01.563 --> 01:15:02.865
How is that different
from being told

1105
01:15:02.865 --> 01:15:04.700
"you can't walk
across that park"?

1106
01:15:04.700 --> 01:15:06.134
"Oh, you can't think
those thoughts."

1107
01:15:06.134 --> 01:15:07.202
How is that any different?

1108
01:15:07.202 --> 01:15:10.906
I'd prefer to be excluded
from the park

1109
01:15:10.906 --> 01:15:13.642
because I can live my life
quite freely

1110
01:15:13.642 --> 01:15:16.044
without having set foot
in a park.

1111
01:15:16.044 --> 01:15:17.112
But you can't live it freely

1112
01:15:17.112 --> 01:15:20.682
without having
your own thoughts.

1113
01:15:20.682 --> 01:15:24.219
I felt as though
in my life,

1114
01:15:24.219 --> 01:15:29.992
I had been looking at the wrong
people,

1115
01:15:29.992 --> 01:15:33.762
as the people who would be
problematic toward me.

1116
01:15:33.762 --> 01:15:37.666
We were told that "Oh it's going
to be the bigot

1117
01:15:37.666 --> 01:15:39.034
in the pickup truck.

1118
01:15:39.034 --> 01:15:41.970
It's going be the Klansman.

1119
01:15:41.970 --> 01:15:45.140
It's going to be the rural
sheriff."

1120
01:15:45.140 --> 01:15:47.009
And I'm not saying that there
weren't

1121
01:15:47.009 --> 01:15:49.811
some of those who were bad,

1122
01:15:49.811 --> 01:15:53.248
but it turned out,
that through all of that,

1123
01:15:53.248 --> 01:15:56.151
ultimately the biggest
impediment,

1124
01:15:56.151 --> 01:15:59.021
was the modern day liberal.

1125
01:15:59.021 --> 01:16:03.825
That they were the ones who
would discount all those things,

1126
01:16:03.825 --> 01:16:06.828
because they have one issue,

1127
01:16:06.828 --> 01:16:08.864
or because they can they have
the authority,

1128
01:16:08.864 --> 01:16:11.099
the power to caricature you.

1129
01:16:13.035 --> 01:16:14.570
Thank you all, and thank you
and your family

1130
01:16:14.570 --> 01:16:17.706
We will recess for five minutes.

1131
01:16:17.706 --> 01:16:27.783
[♪]

1132
01:16:31.153 --> 01:16:33.155
CLARENCE:
We were just exhausted.

1133
01:16:33.155 --> 01:16:36.858
So, we went over just briefly,
and it was out of season

1134
01:16:36.858 --> 01:16:38.994
to Cape May,

1135
01:16:38.994 --> 01:16:41.330
just to get away
from the Washington area.

1136
01:16:41.330 --> 01:16:51.607
[♪]

1137
01:16:58.146 --> 01:17:00.282
We had just gotten back,

1138
01:17:00.282 --> 01:17:05.220
and that's when all heck
broke loose.

1139
01:17:05.220 --> 01:17:07.756
GINNI THOMAS:
A call came from the White House

1140
01:17:07.756 --> 01:17:10.959
that we were going to be
visited by the FBI.

1141
01:17:10.959 --> 01:17:12.828
MICHAEL:
What was that like when
the FBI came?

1142
01:17:12.828 --> 01:17:14.329
As soon as they stepped in,
they said

1143
01:17:14.329 --> 01:17:15.831
"do you know Anita Hill?"

1144
01:17:15.831 --> 01:17:19.267
And then they said "Did you ever
try to go out with her

1145
01:17:19.267 --> 01:17:22.304
or did you ever discuss
pornographic stuff with her?"

1146
01:17:22.304 --> 01:17:24.139
"No, no way."

1147
01:17:24.139 --> 01:17:26.008
And that was, I said
"you got to be kidding me."

1148
01:17:26.008 --> 01:17:28.243
And then it's just like,
you're deflated.

1149
01:17:28.243 --> 01:17:30.979
You said "This is where we're
going now."

1150
01:17:30.979 --> 01:17:34.349
And, so I maybe, I felt more
like Joseph K in The Trial,

1151
01:17:38.754 --> 01:17:41.056
that suddenly you're minding
your business,

1152
01:17:41.056 --> 01:17:43.759
and you were arrested
one morning.

1153
01:17:47.663 --> 01:17:51.400
You're entering an
unknown world.

1154
01:17:51.400 --> 01:17:54.136
Well, this obviously isn't
anything of any importance.

1155
01:17:56.672 --> 01:17:58.407
Quite honestly, I can't remember
a single offense

1156
01:17:58.407 --> 01:18:00.375
that could be charged
against me.

1157
01:18:02.310 --> 01:18:05.914
It's obviously a mistake,
something very trivial.

1158
01:18:08.684 --> 01:18:11.953
CLARENCE:
I have no idea what I
was supposed to have done.

1159
01:18:11.953 --> 01:18:15.023
I'm sorry to disappoint you
but I am afraid

1160
01:18:15.023 --> 01:18:16.258
that you wont find
any subversive literature

1161
01:18:16.258 --> 01:18:17.359
or pornography.

1162
01:18:17.359 --> 01:18:18.694
Don't touch those record albums!

1163
01:18:18.694 --> 01:18:21.196
AGENT 1:
What is this thing?

1164
01:18:21.196 --> 01:18:24.032
-My phonograph.
-AGENT 2: Well, what's this?

1165
01:18:24.032 --> 01:18:26.368
CLARENCE:
The FBI called back
that afternoon,

1166
01:18:26.368 --> 01:18:29.705
they said that "This is
uncorroborated.

1167
01:18:29.705 --> 01:18:32.274
There are no facts,"

1168
01:18:32.274 --> 01:18:34.810
that "We don't think
there's anything to it."

1169
01:18:52.260 --> 01:18:54.329
NINA TOTENBERG: In
an affidavit filed
with Senate
Judiciary committee

1170
01:18:54.329 --> 01:18:56.832
law professor
Anita Hill

1171
01:18:56.832 --> 01:18:59.234
said Thomas began
asking her out socially

1172
01:18:59.234 --> 01:19:00.902
and refused to
accept her
explanation

1173
01:19:00.902 --> 01:19:02.170
that she did not
think it appropriate

1174
01:19:02.170 --> 01:19:04.372
to go out with
her boss.

1175
01:19:04.372 --> 01:19:07.242
The relationship,
she said, became
even more strained

1176
01:19:07.242 --> 01:19:13.014
when Thomas, in
work situations,
began to discuss
sex.

1177
01:19:13.014 --> 01:19:14.216
It was leaked.

1178
01:19:14.216 --> 01:19:17.152
This was a, this was a crime.

1179
01:19:17.152 --> 01:19:20.522
This was a criminal act
that did this.

1180
01:19:20.522 --> 01:19:25.494
But in any case, it was leaked,
and that changed everything.

1181
01:19:25.494 --> 01:19:29.898
REPORTER:
Judge, do you think you are
being treated unfairly, sir?

1182
01:19:29.898 --> 01:19:33.235
MICHAEL:
After the leak the media just
camped out at your house?

1183
01:19:33.235 --> 01:19:35.170
CLARENCE:
Yeah, they stayed,
and then whenever we left,

1184
01:19:35.170 --> 01:19:36.972
there would be a chase car,

1185
01:19:36.972 --> 01:19:40.041
and there was a motorcycle
behind us.

1186
01:19:40.041 --> 01:19:43.145
So, you're literally
under siege.

1187
01:19:43.145 --> 01:19:45.447
NEWSCASTER:
The opponents of Supreme Court
nominee Clarence Thomas

1188
01:19:45.447 --> 01:19:48.083
want to delay a vote on this
confirmation

1189
01:19:48.083 --> 01:19:51.086
because of charges
of sexual harassment.

1190
01:19:51.086 --> 01:19:53.255
In light of these revelations
which we consider to be

1191
01:19:53.255 --> 01:19:55.357
very, very serious,

1192
01:19:55.357 --> 01:19:58.193
then at the minimum we need to
see a delay,

1193
01:19:58.193 --> 01:20:00.829
a delay of this nomination.

1194
01:20:00.829 --> 01:20:02.297
PROTESTERS:
Hey! Hey!

1195
01:20:02.297 --> 01:20:03.398
Ho! Ho!

1196
01:20:03.398 --> 01:20:04.833
Anita Hill yes!

1197
01:20:04.833 --> 01:20:07.969
Thomas no!

1198
01:20:07.969 --> 01:20:09.171
NEWSCASTER:
Several interest groups

1199
01:20:09.171 --> 01:20:11.106
including the Women's Legal
Defense Fund

1200
01:20:11.106 --> 01:20:12.040
and the National Organization
for Women

1201
01:20:12.040 --> 01:20:14.276
are also calling
for a delay.

1202
01:20:14.276 --> 01:20:16.978
CLARENCE:
You worry about,
what can they convince people

1203
01:20:16.978 --> 01:20:18.346
that I have done.

1204
01:20:18.346 --> 01:20:22.184
You got all these PR firms,
and slick law firms,

1205
01:20:22.184 --> 01:20:27.088
I'm just sitting there,
I mean it's my wife and me.

1206
01:20:27.088 --> 01:20:29.825
We're like at home,

1207
01:20:29.825 --> 01:20:34.229
and we have a couple of prayer
partners who would come over.

1208
01:20:34.229 --> 01:20:37.399
GINNI THOMAS:
And they helped us in our home,

1209
01:20:37.399 --> 01:20:41.102
read through the Bible,
and put on the armor of God

1210
01:20:41.102 --> 01:20:45.974
because it felt like the
demons were loose.

1211
01:20:45.974 --> 01:20:48.476
NEWSCASTER:
The eroding support
for Thomas finally forced

1212
01:20:48.476 --> 01:20:52.013
Republicans to admit a Tuesday
vote would be a bad idea

1213
01:20:52.013 --> 01:20:55.016
and there was unanimous consent
to wait until next Tuesday

1214
01:20:55.016 --> 01:20:58.887
to allow a full hearing on the
allegations in the meantime.

1215
01:20:58.887 --> 01:21:00.121
But Thomas's key backer

1216
01:21:00.121 --> 01:21:01.623
delivered an impassioned
prediction

1217
01:21:01.623 --> 01:21:04.159
of what a public hearing would
turn into.

1218
01:21:04.159 --> 01:21:06.428
SENATOR DANFORTH:
Oh, it's going
to be a field day.

1219
01:21:06.428 --> 01:21:10.165
Read all about it!

1220
01:21:10.165 --> 01:21:12.300
Tune in tomorrow,

1221
01:21:12.300 --> 01:21:16.071
and every day for the next
seven days

1222
01:21:16.071 --> 01:21:19.107
to get everything and anything

1223
01:21:19.107 --> 01:21:22.611
that anybody wants
to say about Clarence Thomas!

1224
01:21:30.552 --> 01:21:33.655
[mantle being struck]

1225
01:21:33.655 --> 01:21:36.091
SENATOR BIDEN:
The hearing will come to order.

1226
01:21:38.126 --> 01:21:45.100
Mr. Chairman, Senator Thurmond,
members of the committee,

1227
01:21:45.100 --> 01:21:50.505
I welcome the opportunity
to clear my name today.

1228
01:21:50.505 --> 01:21:53.174
The first I learned
of the allegations

1229
01:21:53.174 --> 01:22:00.448
by Prof. Anita Hill
was on September 25, 1991,

1230
01:22:00.448 --> 01:22:06.621
when the FBI came to my home to
investigate her allegations.

1231
01:22:06.621 --> 01:22:15.697
I was shocked, surprised, hurt,
and enormously saddened.

1232
01:22:15.697 --> 01:22:20.368
I have not been the same since
that day.

1233
01:22:20.368 --> 01:22:24.673
Let me describe my relationship
with Anita Hill.

1234
01:22:24.673 --> 01:22:29.277
In 1981, after I went
to the Department of Education

1235
01:22:29.277 --> 01:22:33.281
as an Assistant Secretary
in the Office of Civil Rights,

1236
01:22:33.281 --> 01:22:36.418
I hired Anita Hill.

1237
01:22:36.418 --> 01:22:39.154
Anita Hill was an attorney
advisor

1238
01:22:39.154 --> 01:22:42.157
who worked directly with me.

1239
01:22:42.157 --> 01:22:46.628
Anita Hill joined me at EEOC.

1240
01:22:46.628 --> 01:22:50.532
At EEOC, our relationship
was more distant.

1241
01:22:50.532 --> 01:22:53.301
And our contacts less frequent.

1242
01:22:53.301 --> 01:22:58.406
Although I did not see Anita
Hill often after she left EEOC,

1243
01:22:58.406 --> 01:23:02.344
I did see her on 1 or 2
subsequent visits

1244
01:23:02.344 --> 01:23:06.214
to Tulsa, Oklahoma
and on one visit,

1245
01:23:06.214 --> 01:23:09.751
I believe she drove me
to the airport.

1246
01:23:09.751 --> 01:23:14.556
I find it particularly troubling
that she never raised any hint

1247
01:23:14.556 --> 01:23:17.659
that she was uncomfortable
with me.

1248
01:23:17.659 --> 01:23:20.028
She did not raise
or mention it

1249
01:23:20.028 --> 01:23:22.764
when considering moving with me
to EEOC

1250
01:23:22.764 --> 01:23:25.567
from the Department of Education

1251
01:23:25.567 --> 01:23:29.371
and she never raised it with me
when she left EEOC

1252
01:23:29.371 --> 01:23:32.774
and was moving on in her life.

1253
01:23:32.774 --> 01:23:36.411
But, I have not said or done the
things

1254
01:23:36.411 --> 01:23:40.048
that Anita Hill has alleged.

1255
01:23:40.048 --> 01:23:45.787
God has gotten me through the
days since September 25th

1256
01:23:45.787 --> 01:23:49.157
and he is my judge.

1257
01:23:49.157 --> 01:23:53.061
GINNI THOMAS:
I have to tell you
from my perch behind him.

1258
01:23:53.061 --> 01:23:57.499
I was just watching the senators
and feeling rage towards them.

1259
01:23:57.499 --> 01:24:01.236
And I especially focused
on Senator Kennedy,

1260
01:24:01.236 --> 01:24:04.372
and the things that I knew he
had done in his life,

1261
01:24:04.372 --> 01:24:07.609
and the nerve of any
of this to come out

1262
01:24:07.609 --> 01:24:10.111
to a man like I know
and I love.

1263
01:24:10.111 --> 01:24:16.117
JUDGE Thomas:
Mr. Chairman, I have never,
in all my life, felt such hurt,

1264
01:24:16.117 --> 01:24:20.488
such pain, such agony.

1265
01:24:20.488 --> 01:24:24.292
My family and I have been done
a grave

1266
01:24:24.292 --> 01:24:28.430
and irreparable injustice.

1267
01:24:28.430 --> 01:24:30.365
SENATOR BIDEN:
Thank you, Judge.

1268
01:24:30.365 --> 01:24:36.704
The hearing is in recess
for 5 minutes.

1269
01:24:36.704 --> 01:24:38.273
MICHAEL:
So, then you left,
and went back home.

1270
01:24:38.273 --> 01:24:39.707
Yeah.

1271
01:24:39.707 --> 01:24:42.143
MICHAEL:
And Anita Hill testified.

1272
01:24:42.143 --> 01:24:43.244
Did you watch that?

1273
01:24:43.244 --> 01:24:45.647
CLARENCE:
Oh, God, no.

1274
01:24:45.647 --> 01:24:47.415
SENATOR BIDEN:
Professor, do you swear to tell
the whole truth

1275
01:24:47.415 --> 01:24:49.551
and nothing but the truth,
so help you, God?

1276
01:24:49.551 --> 01:24:50.552
PROFESSOR HILL:
I do.

1277
01:24:50.552 --> 01:24:54.622
SENATOR BIDEN:
Thank you.

1278
01:24:54.622 --> 01:24:58.827
My name is Anita F. Hill,
and I am a professor of law

1279
01:24:58.827 --> 01:25:01.663
at the University of Oklahoma.

1280
01:25:01.663 --> 01:25:04.232
At the Department of Education

1281
01:25:04.232 --> 01:25:09.737
Judge Thomas asked me
to go out socially with him.

1282
01:25:09.737 --> 01:25:13.675
I declined the invitation to go
out socially with him.

1283
01:25:13.675 --> 01:25:18.446
My working relationship became
even more strained

1284
01:25:18.446 --> 01:25:25.520
when Judge Thomas began to use
work situations to discuss sex.

1285
01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:28.723
His conversations were very
vivid.

1286
01:25:28.723 --> 01:25:32.160
When Senate staff asked me about
these matters,

1287
01:25:32.160 --> 01:25:34.896
I felt that I had a duty to
report.

1288
01:25:34.896 --> 01:25:37.198
I could not keep silent.

1289
01:25:40.502 --> 01:25:43.304
GINNI THOMAS:
This was a kill-shot.

1290
01:25:43.304 --> 01:25:44.606
We could feel it.

1291
01:25:44.606 --> 01:25:46.875
So, they were coming
to destroy my husband,

1292
01:25:46.875 --> 01:25:51.513
not just discredit him or differ
with his point of view.

1293
01:25:51.513 --> 01:25:53.515
This was the kill-shot.

1294
01:25:55.250 --> 01:25:57.652
Can you tell me
what incidences occurred,

1295
01:25:57.652 --> 01:26:01.289
of the ones you have described
to us, occurred in his office?

1296
01:26:01.289 --> 01:26:05.927
Well, I recall specifically that
the incident about the Coke can

1297
01:26:05.927 --> 01:26:10.398
occurred in his office
at the EEOC.

1298
01:26:10.398 --> 01:26:12.600
SENATOR BIDEN:
And what was that incident
again?

1299
01:26:12.600 --> 01:26:14.769
The incident with regard
to the Coke can,

1300
01:26:14.769 --> 01:26:25.947
PROFESSOR HILL:
The incident involved his going
to his desk,

1301
01:26:25.947 --> 01:26:28.883
getting up from a worktable,
going to his desk,

1302
01:26:28.883 --> 01:26:35.890
looking at this can and saying,
"Who put pubic hair on my Coke?"

1303
01:26:37.825 --> 01:26:41.896
GINNI THOMAS:
I was the one that tried
to watch what was going on

1304
01:26:41.896 --> 01:26:45.767
for as long as I could
and it looked bad.

1305
01:26:45.767 --> 01:26:48.570
It looked like it could be
credible.

1306
01:26:48.570 --> 01:26:52.307
She was painting a compelling
picture

1307
01:26:52.307 --> 01:26:54.909
and yet coming up with different
iterations

1308
01:26:54.909 --> 01:26:57.979
from what we had been told her
allegations were.

1309
01:26:57.979 --> 01:26:59.781
So it was growing.

1310
01:26:59.781 --> 01:27:03.384
Someone had worked with her,
or she had found new aspects

1311
01:27:03.384 --> 01:27:08.656
of her story that she was
putting out there.

1312
01:27:08.656 --> 01:27:13.328
SENATOR BIDEN:
Are there any other incidents
that occurred in his office,

1313
01:27:13.328 --> 01:27:15.597
with just-in his office, period?

1314
01:27:15.597 --> 01:27:19.234
There is...
I recall at least one instance

1315
01:27:19.234 --> 01:27:22.303
in his office at the EEOC

1316
01:27:22.303 --> 01:27:25.974
where he discussed
some pornographic material,

1317
01:27:25.974 --> 01:27:29.544
or he brought up the substance
or the content

1318
01:27:29.544 --> 01:27:32.380
of pornographic material.

1319
01:27:32.380 --> 01:27:34.782
SENATOR BIDEN:
Again, it is difficult,
but for the record,

1320
01:27:34.782 --> 01:27:37.719
what substance did he bring up
in this instance, at EEOC,

1321
01:27:37.719 --> 01:27:39.887
in his office?

1322
01:27:39.887 --> 01:27:43.258
PROFESSOR HILL:
This was a reference
to an individual

1323
01:27:43.258 --> 01:27:48.896
who had a very large penis

1324
01:27:48.896 --> 01:27:53.401
and he used the name that he had
referred to

1325
01:27:53.401 --> 01:27:56.271
in the pornographic material...

1326
01:27:59.507 --> 01:28:01.376
SENATOR BIDEN:
Do you recall what it was?

1327
01:28:01.376 --> 01:28:02.844
Yes, I do.

1328
01:28:02.844 --> 01:28:09.717
The name that was referred to
was Long Dong Silver.

1329
01:28:09.717 --> 01:28:16.391
GINNI THOMAS:
Honestly it was a nightmare
to hear about any of her charges

1330
01:28:16.391 --> 01:28:19.994
whether it was the pubic hair
on the Coke can

1331
01:28:19.994 --> 01:28:23.431
or Long Dong Silver.

1332
01:28:23.431 --> 01:28:25.667
It was all jarring.

1333
01:28:25.667 --> 01:28:30.571
It was all so wrong, it was
so shocking.

1334
01:28:30.571 --> 01:28:35.076
And I'm sure America was tuning
in to C-SPAN.

1335
01:28:35.076 --> 01:28:39.614
And it was horrendous because it
was so untrue.

1336
01:28:39.614 --> 01:28:41.449
CLARENCE:
Then she told me what
they were saying,

1337
01:28:41.449 --> 01:28:46.621
I know that didn't happen",
because I'd never known.

1338
01:28:46.621 --> 01:28:48.056
So yeah,
I was tormenting myself,

1339
01:28:48.056 --> 01:28:50.992
trying to dig through my endless
memories.

1340
01:28:50.992 --> 01:28:52.026
Did I do something?

1341
01:28:52.026 --> 01:28:53.828
Did I say something?

1342
01:28:53.828 --> 01:28:55.596
Was it a joke?

1343
01:28:55.596 --> 01:28:57.899
And when they said whatever it
was, they said--

1344
01:28:57.899 --> 01:28:59.534
I said "that didn't happen."

1345
01:28:59.534 --> 01:29:05.506
So, it was the first relief
I felt.

1346
01:29:05.506 --> 01:29:08.443
SENATOR SIMPSON:
Why in God's name,

1347
01:29:08.443 --> 01:29:12.847
when he left his position
of power or status

1348
01:29:12.847 --> 01:29:18.753
or authority over you,
and you left it in 1983,

1349
01:29:18.753 --> 01:29:24.492
why in God's name would you ever
speak to a man like that

1350
01:29:24.492 --> 01:29:27.128
the rest of your life?

1351
01:29:27.128 --> 01:29:30.631
That is a very
good question,

1352
01:29:30.631 --> 01:29:32.867
and I am sure that I cannot
answer that

1353
01:29:32.867 --> 01:29:35.470
to your satisfaction.

1354
01:29:35.470 --> 01:29:40.441
I have suggested that I was
afraid of retaliation,

1355
01:29:40.441 --> 01:29:44.479
I was afraid of damage
to my professional life.

1356
01:29:44.479 --> 01:29:48.049
It just seems so incredible
to me

1357
01:29:48.049 --> 01:29:52.053
that you would not only have
visited with him twice

1358
01:29:52.053 --> 01:29:56.624
after that period and after he
was no longer able

1359
01:29:56.624 --> 01:29:59.093
to manipulate you
or to destroy you,

1360
01:29:59.093 --> 01:30:00.862
that you then not only visited
with him

1361
01:30:00.862 --> 01:30:03.765
but took him to the airport,

1362
01:30:03.765 --> 01:30:05.600
and then 11 times contacted him.

1363
01:30:05.600 --> 01:30:09.570
That part of it
is the most contradictory

1364
01:30:09.570 --> 01:30:13.841
and puzzling thing for me.

1365
01:30:13.841 --> 01:30:16.144
SENATOR BIDEN:
Adjourned until 9 o'clock.

1366
01:30:21.682 --> 01:30:25.953
CLARENCE:
Senator Danforth called me
at home, after that testimony

1367
01:30:25.953 --> 01:30:28.790
and they wanted me to testify
that night,

1368
01:30:28.790 --> 01:30:34.095
to not let the testimony,
her testimony be the new-

1369
01:30:34.095 --> 01:30:36.464
fill up the news cycle.

1370
01:30:36.464 --> 01:30:38.933
NEWSCASTER:
This afternoon Mr. Bush left
for Camp David,

1371
01:30:38.933 --> 01:30:41.135
but you would have to describe
the mood here as resigned,

1372
01:30:41.135 --> 01:30:43.438
I think, and somber,
not at all sure

1373
01:30:43.438 --> 01:30:46.841
that Clarence Thomas
is going to survive this.

1374
01:30:46.841 --> 01:30:51.979
CLARENCE:
So, I reluctantly agreed to come
back at 8 o'clock.

1375
01:30:51.979 --> 01:30:54.649
GINNI THOMAS:
He may have thought it was
necessary to go back

1376
01:30:54.649 --> 01:30:56.651
in front of the Senate,

1377
01:30:56.651 --> 01:30:58.853
but honestly from his wife's
point of view

1378
01:30:58.853 --> 01:31:04.091
watching the man who is
my loved, beloved husband,

1379
01:31:04.091 --> 01:31:08.029
I didn't know he had it within
him to keep going.

1380
01:31:08.029 --> 01:31:12.867
So, I get to Jack, Senator
Danforth's office

1381
01:31:12.867 --> 01:31:17.672
and we sit, and we begin
to discuss that,

1382
01:31:17.672 --> 01:31:19.740
you know what's ahead.

1383
01:31:21.042 --> 01:31:22.944
So, I was exhausted,

1384
01:31:22.944 --> 01:31:26.981
and I asked him to get rid
of all the people.

1385
01:31:26.981 --> 01:31:31.886
He turned off the lights

1386
01:31:31.886 --> 01:31:34.689
and I just laid down
on the couch,

1387
01:31:34.689 --> 01:31:37.091
and just closed my eyes.

1388
01:31:41.863 --> 01:31:44.732
Surrounded by the darkness
of early evening

1389
01:31:44.732 --> 01:31:48.636
drifting in the liminal space
between sleep and waking.

1390
01:31:51.572 --> 01:31:54.876
I must have been thinking
of "To Kill a Mockingbird"

1391
01:31:57.979 --> 01:32:01.215
in which Atticus Finch,
a small-town southern lawyer,

1392
01:32:01.215 --> 01:32:03.618
defends Tom Robinson

1393
01:32:03.618 --> 01:32:07.655
a black man on trial
for the rape of a white woman.

1394
01:32:13.261 --> 01:32:17.265
Gentlemen of the jury,
have you reached a verdict?

1395
01:32:17.265 --> 01:32:21.002
CLARENCE:
I had lived my whole life
knowing that Tom's fate

1396
01:32:21.002 --> 01:32:23.671
might be mine.

1397
01:32:23.671 --> 01:32:25.306
Strip away the fancy talk

1398
01:32:25.306 --> 01:32:29.710
and you were left with the same
old story.

1399
01:32:29.710 --> 01:32:32.146
You can't trust black
men around women.

1400
01:32:33.981 --> 01:32:37.018
JURY:
We find the defendant
guilty as charged.

1401
01:32:40.755 --> 01:32:44.692
CLARENCE:
This one may be a big city judge
with a law degree from Yale

1402
01:32:44.692 --> 01:32:47.862
but when you get right down
to it,

1403
01:32:47.862 --> 01:32:50.164
he's just like the rest
of them.

1404
01:32:52.199 --> 01:32:56.837
One of the things
that came to mind

1405
01:32:56.837 --> 01:32:58.306
after I'd rested a little bit,

1406
01:32:58.306 --> 01:33:01.876
I said "Jack, this is
a high-tech lynching"

1407
01:33:01.876 --> 01:33:05.146
and he said "If that's what you
think, say it."

1408
01:33:05.146 --> 01:33:08.182
And so, I wrote that
on a legal pad,

1409
01:33:08.182 --> 01:33:12.320
and he just exhorted me to go
in the name of the Holy Ghost.

1410
01:33:12.320 --> 01:33:17.858
[crowd applauding]

1411
01:33:17.858 --> 01:33:21.862
GINNI THOMAS:
There were conservative groups
who were marshalling activists

1412
01:33:21.862 --> 01:33:23.864
from around the country
to come in

1413
01:33:23.864 --> 01:33:25.633
and line the hallways.

1414
01:33:25.633 --> 01:33:28.703
[crowd shouting and cheering]

1415
01:33:31.639 --> 01:33:34.709
And when we came out
of Senator Danforth's office,

1416
01:33:34.709 --> 01:33:36.711
and we were going down the
hallway,

1417
01:33:36.711 --> 01:33:40.247
and all these people were
clapping, and very excited.

1418
01:33:40.247 --> 01:33:43.317
[crowd cheering]

1419
01:33:49.023 --> 01:33:51.692
And he said to me
"who are those people?"

1420
01:33:51.692 --> 01:33:54.328
And I said
"I think they're angels."

1421
01:33:54.328 --> 01:33:57.398
[mantle struck]

1422
01:34:01.168 --> 01:34:03.971
SENATOR BIDEN:
The committee will please
come to order.

1423
01:34:05.339 --> 01:34:10.411
JUDGE THOMAS:
Senator, I would like to start
by saying unequivocally,

1424
01:34:10.411 --> 01:34:16.083
uncategorically that I deny each
and every single allegation

1425
01:34:16.083 --> 01:34:17.652
against me today

1426
01:34:17.652 --> 01:34:20.821
that suggested in any way

1427
01:34:20.821 --> 01:34:26.027
that I had conversations
of a sexual nature

1428
01:34:26.027 --> 01:34:30.164
or about pornographic material
with Anita Hill.

1429
01:34:30.164 --> 01:34:33.801
That I ever attempted to date
her.

1430
01:34:33.801 --> 01:34:39.940
That I ever had any personal
sexual interest in her,

1431
01:34:39.940 --> 01:34:44.278
or that I
in any way ever harassed her.

1432
01:34:44.278 --> 01:34:45.446
This is a circus.

1433
01:34:45.446 --> 01:34:47.782
It is a national disgrace.

1434
01:34:49.083 --> 01:34:53.154
And from my standpoint,
as a black American,

1435
01:34:53.154 --> 01:34:57.024
as far as I am concerned,
it is a high-tech lynching

1436
01:34:57.024 --> 01:35:02.463
for uppity-blacks who in any way
deign to think for themselves,

1437
01:35:02.463 --> 01:35:06.200
to do for themselves,
to have different ideas,

1438
01:35:06.200 --> 01:35:08.202
and it is a message that,

1439
01:35:08.202 --> 01:35:11.772
unless you kowtow to an old
order,

1440
01:35:11.772 --> 01:35:14.975
this is what will happen to you.

1441
01:35:14.975 --> 01:35:21.749
You will be lynched, destroyed,
caricatured

1442
01:35:21.749 --> 01:35:25.252
by a committee of the U.S.
Senate,

1443
01:35:25.252 --> 01:35:29.323
rather than hung
from a tree.

1444
01:35:36.263 --> 01:35:40.201
GINNI THOMAS:
When Clarence gave
the high-tech lynching speech,

1445
01:35:40.201 --> 01:35:46.741
I knew how little of my husband
was sitting in front of me.

1446
01:35:46.741 --> 01:35:49.910
And I knew that God was with him

1447
01:35:49.910 --> 01:35:52.413
because I knew he wasn't doing
that on his own,

1448
01:35:52.413 --> 01:35:56.150
because I knew how weak he was
at that point.

1449
01:35:59.820 --> 01:36:05.426
And, Judge, what is your
response

1450
01:36:05.426 --> 01:36:08.796
to those specific charges again?

1451
01:36:08.796 --> 01:36:12.366
Senator, my response is that
I categorically,

1452
01:36:12.366 --> 01:36:14.001
unequivocally deny them.

1453
01:36:14.001 --> 01:36:14.935
SENATOR PATRICK:
Thank you.

1454
01:36:14.935 --> 01:36:17.037
They did not occur.

1455
01:36:17.037 --> 01:36:22.443
Senator,
I wasn't harmed by the Klan,

1456
01:36:22.443 --> 01:36:25.379
I wasn't harmed by the Knights
of Camelia,

1457
01:36:25.379 --> 01:36:28.415
I wasn't harmed by the Aryan
race,

1458
01:36:28.415 --> 01:36:30.818
I wasn't harmed by a racist
group,

1459
01:36:30.818 --> 01:36:34.855
I was harmed by this process,

1460
01:36:34.855 --> 01:36:40.027
this process which accommodated
these attacks on me.

1461
01:36:40.027 --> 01:36:45.032
I would have
preferred an assassin's bullet

1462
01:36:45.032 --> 01:36:49.336
to this kind of living hell

1463
01:36:49.336 --> 01:36:53.340
that they have put me
and my family through.

1464
01:36:58.879 --> 01:37:01.982
SENATOR GRASSLEY:
You haven't
mentioned your grandfather.

1465
01:37:01.982 --> 01:37:04.885
I would like to have you tell me
what you think advice,

1466
01:37:04.885 --> 01:37:12.326
he would give to you if he were
advising you today.

1467
01:37:12.326 --> 01:37:16.831
JUDGE THOMAS:
When I was getting
hammered in the public

1468
01:37:16.831 --> 01:37:21.035
and getting criticized,
and I complained to him,

1469
01:37:21.035 --> 01:37:24.905
he told me to stand up
for what I believe in.

1470
01:37:24.905 --> 01:37:27.241
That is what he would tell me
today.

1471
01:37:27.241 --> 01:37:29.944
Not to quit,
not to turn tail,

1472
01:37:29.944 --> 01:37:32.279
not to cry "uncle,"

1473
01:37:32.279 --> 01:37:35.049
and not to give up until
I am dead.

1474
01:37:35.049 --> 01:37:37.251
He had another statement.

1475
01:37:37.251 --> 01:37:41.322
"Give out
but don't give up."

1476
01:37:41.322 --> 01:37:44.058
That is what he would say to me.

1477
01:37:49.096 --> 01:37:52.499
SENATOR HATCH:
I would like you
to describe now,

1478
01:37:52.499 --> 01:37:55.436
for this gathering,

1479
01:37:55.436 --> 01:38:04.211
what it is like to be accused
of sexual harassment.

1480
01:38:04.211 --> 01:38:06.614
And let me add the word,
unjustly accused

1481
01:38:06.614 --> 01:38:12.019
of sexual harassment.

1482
01:38:12.019 --> 01:38:16.657
The day I received
a phone call on Saturday night,

1483
01:38:16.657 --> 01:38:21.262
last Saturday night, about 7:30

1484
01:38:21.262 --> 01:38:28.269
and told that this was going to
be in the press, I had-I died.

1485
01:38:28.269 --> 01:38:31.405
The person you knew,
whether you voted for me

1486
01:38:31.405 --> 01:38:34.475
or against me...

1487
01:38:34.475 --> 01:38:37.278
died.

1488
01:38:52.660 --> 01:38:56.397
In my view,
that is an injustice.

1489
01:39:01.669 --> 01:39:04.505
SENATOR HATCH:
Judge, you are here though.

1490
01:39:04.505 --> 01:39:06.106
Some people have been spreading
the rumor

1491
01:39:06.106 --> 01:39:09.043
that perhaps you are
going to withdraw.

1492
01:39:12.313 --> 01:39:15.049
What's Clarence Thomas going to
do?

1493
01:39:15.049 --> 01:39:18.652
JUDGE THOMAS:
I would rather die
than withdraw.

1494
01:39:18.652 --> 01:39:21.355
If they are going to kill me,
they're going to kill me.

1495
01:39:29.229 --> 01:39:31.732
So, you would still like
to serve on the Supreme Court?

1496
01:39:31.732 --> 01:39:36.270
I would rather die
than withdraw from the process.

1497
01:39:40.240 --> 01:39:44.478
Not for the purpose of serving
on the Supreme Court

1498
01:39:44.478 --> 01:39:49.683
but for the purpose of not being
driven out of this process.

1499
01:39:49.683 --> 01:39:51.618
I will not be scared.

1500
01:39:51.618 --> 01:39:53.487
I don't like bullies.

1501
01:39:53.487 --> 01:39:56.323
I have never run from bullies.

1502
01:39:56.323 --> 01:39:59.293
I never cry uncle and I am not
going to cry uncle today

1503
01:39:59.293 --> 01:40:02.663
whether I want to be
on the Supreme Court or not.

1504
01:40:06.166 --> 01:40:09.436
We are recessed
for 15 minutes.

1505
01:40:12.539 --> 01:40:14.541
CROWD:
We support Thomas!

1506
01:40:14.541 --> 01:40:23.550
We support Thomas!

1507
01:40:23.550 --> 01:40:26.353
CLARENCE:
The poll numbers had
changed dramatically,

1508
01:40:26.353 --> 01:40:28.155
after I testified.

1509
01:40:28.155 --> 01:40:29.590
NEWSCASTER:
More than twice as many
respondents

1510
01:40:29.590 --> 01:40:31.792
to a CBS News/New York Times
poll say

1511
01:40:31.792 --> 01:40:33.027
they would likely believe
Judge Thomas

1512
01:40:33.027 --> 01:40:35.763
if they were forced to choose.

1513
01:40:35.763 --> 01:40:40.367
It's like two thirds of the
country was normally on my side.

1514
01:40:40.367 --> 01:40:43.037
The question is on the
confirmation of the nomination

1515
01:40:43.037 --> 01:40:46.540
of Clarence Thomas of Georgia
to be an Associate Justice

1516
01:40:46.540 --> 01:40:49.043
of the United States
Supreme Court.

1517
01:40:49.043 --> 01:40:50.611
SPEAKER:
Mr. Deconcini.

1518
01:40:50.611 --> 01:40:51.678
DECONCINI:
Aye.

1519
01:40:51.678 --> 01:40:54.081
SPEAKER:
Mr. Kerry of Massachusetts.

1520
01:40:54.081 --> 01:40:55.582
KERRY:
No.

1521
01:40:55.582 --> 01:40:56.750
SPEAKER:
Mr. McCain

1522
01:40:56.750 --> 01:40:59.553
McCAIN:
Aye.

1523
01:40:59.553 --> 01:41:02.423
MICHAEL:
Where were you during the actual
Senate vote?

1524
01:41:02.423 --> 01:41:05.392
CLARENCE:
During the vote, I was
in the tub, and finally,

1525
01:41:05.392 --> 01:41:13.700
So I got in the bath,
and just sort of soaked.

1526
01:41:13.700 --> 01:41:19.506
QUAYLE:
On this vote the yeas are 52
and the nays are 48.

1527
01:41:19.506 --> 01:41:22.242
The nomination
of Clarence Thomas of Georgia

1528
01:41:22.242 --> 01:41:25.279
to be associate justice of the
United States Supreme Court

1529
01:41:25.279 --> 01:41:27.114
is hereby confirmed.

1530
01:41:27.114 --> 01:41:29.183
GINNI THOMAS:
So, when the vote happened,

1531
01:41:29.183 --> 01:41:33.687
someone who worked with me
called and told me that he won.

1532
01:41:33.687 --> 01:41:38.092
And I went and told Clarence,
and he was in a bath-tub.

1533
01:41:38.092 --> 01:41:40.694
And you know, my reaction is,

1534
01:41:40.694 --> 01:41:44.798
still pretty much the way it is
now "whoop-dee-damn-doo."

1535
01:41:44.798 --> 01:41:46.767
And I wasn't really all that
interested in it.

1536
01:41:46.767 --> 01:41:49.536
I just think what they did was
wrong.

1537
01:41:49.536 --> 01:41:50.871
So that you get confirmed,
but the bottom line

1538
01:41:50.871 --> 01:41:52.840
doesn't change the fact
that what you did was wrong.

1539
01:41:52.840 --> 01:41:55.709
Repeat after me:

1540
01:41:55.709 --> 01:41:58.712
I, Clarence Thomas...

1541
01:41:58.712 --> 01:42:01.815
Do solemnly swear...

1542
01:42:01.815 --> 01:42:03.450
JUSTICE WHITE:
That I will support
and defend...

1543
01:42:03.450 --> 01:42:05.285
That I will support
and defend...

1544
01:42:05.285 --> 01:42:10.190
The Constitution
of the United States.

1545
01:42:12.359 --> 01:42:17.464
Without warning memories
of home, my grandparents

1546
01:42:17.464 --> 01:42:19.399
and the accumulated toil

1547
01:42:19.399 --> 01:42:22.736
of the last 4 decades swirled
through my mind.

1548
01:42:22.736 --> 01:42:32.813
[♪]

1549
01:42:42.756 --> 01:42:46.727
[♪]

1550
01:42:46.727 --> 01:42:50.364
those same groups that opposed
you during confirmation,

1551
01:42:50.364 --> 01:42:52.533
continued their attack.

1552
01:42:52.533 --> 01:42:53.400
Yeah.

1553
01:42:53.400 --> 01:42:57.671
Nothing they do
surprises me anymore.

1554
01:42:57.671 --> 01:43:02.342
It's just, it's unpleasant,
but that's life.

1555
01:43:02.342 --> 01:43:12.419
[♪]

1556
01:43:22.362 --> 01:43:29.836
[♪]

1557
01:43:29.836 --> 01:43:32.406
The idea was to get
rid of me,

1558
01:43:32.406 --> 01:43:36.510
and then it was after I was
there, it was to undermine me,

1559
01:43:36.510 --> 01:43:39.379
my credibility,
my effectiveness.

1560
01:43:39.379 --> 01:43:40.714
You want another bran muffin?

1561
01:43:40.714 --> 01:43:41.915
I could use some more
coffee, Clarence.

1562
01:43:41.915 --> 01:43:43.784
Sure thing!

1563
01:43:43.784 --> 01:43:50.724
of Springfield police department
vs. Hector Rodriguez Gonzalez.

1564
01:43:50.724 --> 01:43:51.992
Justice Thomas?

1565
01:43:51.992 --> 01:43:56.496
Uhh, well how were the rest
of you guys going to vote?

1566
01:43:56.496 --> 01:43:58.732
I'm voting
for the police department.

1567
01:43:58.732 --> 01:44:03.570
I say whatever the
rest of you guys say.

1568
01:44:03.570 --> 01:44:05.572
Justice Thomas...

1569
01:44:08.242 --> 01:44:10.777
CLARENCE:
Well, it's stereotypes draped
in sanctimony

1570
01:44:10.777 --> 01:44:13.380
and self-congratulation.

1571
01:44:21.788 --> 01:44:24.258
It's a different sets
of rules for different people.

1572
01:44:24.258 --> 01:44:29.329
If you criticize a-- a black
person who's more liberal,

1573
01:44:29.329 --> 01:44:30.464
you are racist.

1574
01:44:30.464 --> 01:44:33.367
Whereas if you can do whatever
to me,

1575
01:44:33.367 --> 01:44:37.437
or to now, Ben Carson,

1576
01:44:37.437 --> 01:44:39.740
ah, and that's fine
because you're not really black,

1577
01:44:39.740 --> 01:44:42.776
because you're not doing what we
expect black people to do.

1578
01:44:42.776 --> 01:44:52.853
[♪]

1579
01:44:56.423 --> 01:44:59.593
It's a tactic and when people
see it being successful,

1580
01:44:59.593 --> 01:45:01.561
they don't realize they're going
to be the next ones

1581
01:45:01.561 --> 01:45:04.331
in the Tower of London.

1582
01:45:04.331 --> 01:45:05.866
It is just a matter of time.

1583
01:45:05.866 --> 01:45:10.337
You allow this to be a precedent
in your society,

1584
01:45:10.337 --> 01:45:11.872
and you, people might say, "Oh,
it's wonderful.

1585
01:45:11.872 --> 01:45:14.374
This particular guy is getting
tarred and feathered."

1586
01:45:14.374 --> 01:45:17.077
Well, there's a lot of tar,
and there's a lot of feather,

1587
01:45:17.077 --> 01:45:19.579
and eventually you will be
there.

1588
01:45:21.515 --> 01:45:23.517
NEWSCASTER:
A watershed moment
at the Supreme Court-

1589
01:45:23.517 --> 01:45:26.353
Justice Clarence Thomas
asked a question

1590
01:45:26.353 --> 01:45:28.822
this is the first time Thomas
has asked a question

1591
01:45:28.822 --> 01:45:31.525
in ten years.

1592
01:45:31.525 --> 01:45:33.560
He has said he relies
on written briefs.

1593
01:45:33.560 --> 01:45:35.595
The case involves the Federal
Law...

1594
01:45:35.595 --> 01:45:43.036
[♪]

1595
01:45:43.036 --> 01:45:46.506
MICHAEL:
Some people say you don't ask
enough questions

1596
01:45:46.506 --> 01:45:48.508
during oral argument.

1597
01:45:48.508 --> 01:45:50.844
We are judges,
not advocates

1598
01:45:50.844 --> 01:45:52.646
and I think we should act
accordingly.

1599
01:45:52.646 --> 01:45:54.715
Yeah, we might have opinions,

1600
01:45:54.715 --> 01:45:57.818
but it's not my job to argue
with lawyers;

1601
01:45:57.818 --> 01:45:59.853
it's their job to make their
cases,

1602
01:45:59.853 --> 01:46:03.457
and there's an advocate
on each side.

1603
01:46:03.457 --> 01:46:05.792
The referee in the game
should not be a participant

1604
01:46:05.792 --> 01:46:08.595
in the game.

1605
01:46:08.595 --> 01:46:11.765
The way things are changed
is when the opinion,

1606
01:46:11.765 --> 01:46:13.066
the senior member
in the majority

1607
01:46:13.066 --> 01:46:15.669
assigns who writes the opinion,

1608
01:46:15.669 --> 01:46:20.841
when that opinion is, is
in draft form, it circulates.

1609
01:46:20.841 --> 01:46:22.843
And that's where the
negotiations

1610
01:46:22.843 --> 01:46:24.845
and the real work takes place.

1611
01:46:24.845 --> 01:46:31.084
[♪]

1612
01:46:34.921 --> 01:46:39.559
One of the joys I get is, I get
four new clerks every year.

1613
01:46:39.559 --> 01:46:41.595
I hire four new clerks every
year.

1614
01:46:41.595 --> 01:46:45.766
Everybody who's chosen here,
was chosen for a reason,

1615
01:46:45.766 --> 01:46:48.735
I'm very careful.

1616
01:46:48.735 --> 01:46:51.605
Everybody here is just,
just what a great group.

1617
01:46:51.605 --> 01:46:56.510
GINNI THOMAS:
When Clarence started picking
non-Ivy League clerks,

1618
01:46:56.510 --> 01:47:00.714
some people would call them
"third tier trash"

1619
01:47:00.714 --> 01:47:04.117
and those clerks who were
clerking for Clarence,

1620
01:47:04.117 --> 01:47:07.521
took it as a badge of honor.

1621
01:47:07.521 --> 01:47:08.722
CLARENCE:
So why did you go to USC?

1622
01:47:08.722 --> 01:47:11.191
[laughing]

1623
01:47:11.191 --> 01:47:13.960
MADELINE LANSKY:
Your favorite question.

1624
01:47:13.960 --> 01:47:18.632
CHRISTOPHER MILLS:
For law school I applied sort
of all over the place

1625
01:47:18.632 --> 01:47:22.068
and just went to the,

1626
01:47:22.068 --> 01:47:26.773
went to the best place I could
get in.

1627
01:47:26.773 --> 01:47:29.042
CLARENCE:
And that was Harvard?

1628
01:47:29.042 --> 01:47:31.077
CHRISTOPHER MILLS:
I guess.

1629
01:47:31.077 --> 01:47:32.946
That's what people told me.

1630
01:47:32.946 --> 01:47:34.748
Couldn't have done any
better, huh?

1631
01:47:34.748 --> 01:47:37.717
[laughter]

1632
01:47:41.087 --> 01:47:44.191
We had some suggestions for you,
but you didn't call us.

1633
01:47:44.191 --> 01:47:46.493
[laughing]

1634
01:47:50.964 --> 01:47:52.466
PROTESTORS:
What do we want?

1635
01:47:52.466 --> 01:47:53.066
Affirmative action!

1636
01:47:53.066 --> 01:47:54.034
When do we want it?

1637
01:47:54.034 --> 01:47:54.935
Now!

1638
01:47:54.935 --> 01:47:55.802
What do we want?

1639
01:47:55.802 --> 01:47:56.870
Affirmative action!

1640
01:47:56.870 --> 01:47:57.871
When do we want it?

1641
01:47:57.871 --> 01:48:00.941
NEWSCASTER:
What is expected to be
a landmark case

1642
01:48:00.941 --> 01:48:04.144
before the Supreme Court
to be argued this April.

1643
01:48:04.144 --> 01:48:06.880
NEWSCASTER #2:
The plaintiffs in this case
are three white applicants

1644
01:48:06.880 --> 01:48:08.982
to the University
of Michigan who were rejected,

1645
01:48:08.982 --> 01:48:11.818
they say, because of their race.

1646
01:48:11.818 --> 01:48:21.695
[♪]

1647
01:48:21.695 --> 01:48:27.267
CLARENCE:
"Racial discrimination is not a
permissible solution...

1648
01:48:27.267 --> 01:48:30.737
that can only weaken
the principle of equality

1649
01:48:30.737 --> 01:48:34.708
embodied in the Declaration
of Independence

1650
01:48:34.708 --> 01:48:37.177
and the Equal Protection
Clause."

1651
01:48:40.280 --> 01:48:43.216
Show me in the Constitution
where you get a right

1652
01:48:43.216 --> 01:48:46.119
to separate citizens
based on race.

1653
01:48:46.119 --> 01:48:48.822
I think what we've
become comfortable with is

1654
01:48:48.822 --> 01:48:51.691
thinking that there is some good
discrimination

1655
01:48:51.691 --> 01:48:54.060
and some bad discrimination.

1656
01:48:54.060 --> 01:49:00.233
And if you look in the briefs
in the race cases, uh,

1657
01:49:00.233 --> 01:49:02.802
the segregationists, the people
who thought

1658
01:49:02.802 --> 01:49:04.638
you should have a separate
system, they,

1659
01:49:04.638 --> 01:49:08.975
they said that they thought it
was good for both races.

1660
01:49:08.975 --> 01:49:11.177
So they thought it was good
discrimination.

1661
01:49:11.177 --> 01:49:21.254
[♪]

1662
01:49:35.268 --> 01:49:39.739
You have to really be
careful not to supplant

1663
01:49:39.739 --> 01:49:45.779
what is there, what was, uh,
rightfully done,

1664
01:49:45.779 --> 01:49:50.850
simply because you don't think
it's a great rule.

1665
01:49:50.850 --> 01:49:53.186
A bad policy can be
constitutional.

1666
01:49:53.186 --> 01:49:56.923
A good policy can be
unconstitutional.

1667
01:49:56.923 --> 01:50:01.061
So that's why we start
with the text.

1668
01:50:01.061 --> 01:50:07.934
GINNI THOMAS:
Justice Scalia called Clarence
a "blood thirsty originalist."

1669
01:50:07.934 --> 01:50:10.804
He took that as a compliment.

1670
01:50:15.609 --> 01:50:17.243
CLARENCE:
The framers understood
natural law,

1671
01:50:17.243 --> 01:50:19.613
and natural rights a certain
way,

1672
01:50:19.613 --> 01:50:22.782
and it is underpinning
of our Declaration,

1673
01:50:22.782 --> 01:50:26.886
which then becomes the
foundation for the Constitution.

1674
01:50:26.886 --> 01:50:29.789
They start with the rights
of the individual.

1675
01:50:29.789 --> 01:50:31.658
And where do those rights
come from?

1676
01:50:31.658 --> 01:50:34.361
They come from God,
they're transcendent.

1677
01:50:39.766 --> 01:50:41.334
And you give up some
of those rights

1678
01:50:41.334 --> 01:50:43.003
in order to be governed.

1679
01:50:43.003 --> 01:50:45.305
They're inalienable rights.

1680
01:50:45.305 --> 01:50:49.943
And now you give up only
so many as necessary

1681
01:50:49.943 --> 01:50:54.347
to be governed by your consent.

1682
01:50:54.347 --> 01:51:00.220
And hence limited government,
enumerated powers,

1683
01:51:00.220 --> 01:51:05.091
separation of powers,
federalism, judicial review.

1684
01:51:05.091 --> 01:51:08.061
It all makes sense.

1685
01:51:15.402 --> 01:51:24.277
[♪]

1686
01:51:24.277 --> 01:51:28.982
GINNI THOMAS:
One of Clarence's biggest loves
is when he can get away

1687
01:51:28.982 --> 01:51:33.987
from Washington DC and be
on the road in his motor home.

1688
01:51:33.987 --> 01:51:40.226
[♪]

1689
01:51:40.226 --> 01:51:42.829
CLARENCE:
You know, I don't have any
problem with going to Europe,

1690
01:51:42.829 --> 01:51:45.965
but I prefer the United States.

1691
01:51:45.965 --> 01:51:49.402
And I prefer seeing the regular
parts of the United States.

1692
01:51:49.402 --> 01:51:53.173
I prefer going across the rural
areas.

1693
01:51:53.173 --> 01:51:57.410
I prefer the RV parks,
and I prefer the Walmart parking

1694
01:51:57.410 --> 01:52:01.915
lots to the beaches
and things like that.

1695
01:52:01.915 --> 01:52:04.718
There's something,
normal to me about it.

1696
01:52:04.718 --> 01:52:08.321
I come from regular stock,
and I prefer that.

1697
01:52:08.321 --> 01:52:12.392
I prefer being around that.

1698
01:52:12.392 --> 01:52:15.895
GINNI THOMAS:
I think he has a natural
capacity to hear more

1699
01:52:15.895 --> 01:52:18.965
than most of us do
from regular people.

1700
01:52:21.134 --> 01:52:25.105
Clarence's grandfather is the
perfect example

1701
01:52:25.105 --> 01:52:26.940
of an anchor in his life

1702
01:52:26.940 --> 01:52:30.877
that was not seen by the elites
as having value

1703
01:52:30.877 --> 01:52:33.213
because he had such poor
education.

1704
01:52:33.213 --> 01:52:34.948
He was illiterate.

1705
01:52:34.948 --> 01:52:41.321
But for Clarence, the wisdom
from that man

1706
01:52:41.321 --> 01:52:43.456
and the experience,
and the way he lived his life,

1707
01:52:43.456 --> 01:52:47.127
did make him the greatest man
in his life.

1708
01:52:48.928 --> 01:52:53.299
GINNI THOMAS:
I think he hopes that when
he gets to heaven,

1709
01:52:53.299 --> 01:52:57.837
that his grandfather would say,
"Well done."

1710
01:53:00.907 --> 01:53:03.843
CLARENCE:
I keep a bust of my grandfather
that my wife had made,

1711
01:53:03.843 --> 01:53:06.780
over me and I've done since
I've been at the court.

1712
01:53:10.316 --> 01:53:13.953
He was uncorrupted by
modern thinking.

1713
01:53:13.953 --> 01:53:20.260
When you can't read and write,
you take in life as it is.

1714
01:53:22.829 --> 01:53:24.397
You did things a certain way.

1715
01:53:24.397 --> 01:53:28.301
You planted corn a certain way,
you fed the hogs a certain way,

1716
01:53:28.301 --> 01:53:30.136
you pulled the fence line a
certain way,

1717
01:53:30.136 --> 01:53:32.005
you plowed the field a certain
way,

1718
01:53:32.005 --> 01:53:34.340
and it always had to be the
right way.

1719
01:53:37.210 --> 01:53:40.113
I want to be able to say to him
I lived up to my oath

1720
01:53:40.113 --> 01:53:42.315
and did my best.

1721
01:53:42.315 --> 01:53:48.555
[♪]

1722
01:53:48.555 --> 01:53:51.491
To do it the way you did the
field, properly,

1723
01:53:51.491 --> 01:53:53.393
to do the law the right way,

1724
01:53:53.393 --> 01:53:56.162
to conduct yourself
the right way.

1725
01:54:00.200 --> 01:54:03.970
I want to be able to say that
it's a job well done.

1726
01:54:03.970 --> 01:54:14.047
[♪]

1727
01:54:14.047 --> 01:54:17.050
And to be a part
of this, this country,

1728
01:54:17.050 --> 01:54:18.985
and this Constitution,

1729
01:54:18.985 --> 01:54:24.924
there is a sense of fulfillment
that you get to write,

1730
01:54:24.924 --> 01:54:31.264
and to defend the very thing
that protects our liberties.

1731
01:54:31.264 --> 01:54:34.267
[vocalizing]

1732
01:54:34.267 --> 01:54:44.344
[♪]

1733
01:54:54.287 --> 01:55:04.364
[♪]

1734
01:55:14.307 --> 01:55:24.384
[♪]

1735
01:55:34.327 --> 01:55:44.404
[♪]