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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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MICHAEL:
James, are we keeping the
glasses on or off?

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CAMERAMAN:
The only issue is that because
they're bifocals

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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there's a line going through
his eyes.

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MICHAEL:
Do you need them on,
Justice Thomas?

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No.

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I wear them, that's my normal--

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I normally have glasses on.

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Not on the cover of your book.

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CLARENCE:
Well, except for the cover of my
book I normally wear--

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[laughs]

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MICHAEL:
Justice Thomas, how did you
decide you wanted

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to become a lawyer?

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You look around society
and you see, its laws.

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Laws affect everybody.

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If you're poor,
and you look at people

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like my grandfather,

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I think of when he came home
one day,

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and he was very upset,

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and he was taking a drink.

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He never took a drink in the
middle of the day.

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CLARENCE:
Well what had happened was,
he was driving the oil truck,

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a police officer stops him

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for having too many
clothes on,

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and that's ridiculous.

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He has no way of challenging
that.

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So the law, he ran into the law

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and he always
was afraid of that.

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You couldn't walk across certain
parks;

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you couldn't go to certain
schools;

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people's property being taken;
people taking advantage of him

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because they could say "The law
did this" or "Did that."

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So I decided I was going to go
to law school.

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Senator BIDEN:
Judge Thomas, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth,

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the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?

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Judge THOMAS:
I do.

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Senator BIDEN:
Please be seated.

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Let me look a little bit from
your life and history,

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you are somewhat an enigma.

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You have gone through many
changes in your life.

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Which brings us to the question:

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what is the real
Clarence Thomas like?

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Judge THOMAS:
The person you see
is Clarence Thomas.

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I don't know that I would call
myself an enigma.

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I am just simply different from
what people painted me to be.

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My earliest memories are those
of Pin Point, Georgia,

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a life far removed in space and
time from this room,

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this day and this moment.

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♪ Moon river ♪

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♪ Wider than a mile ♪

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♪ I'm crossing you in style ♪

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♪ Someday ♪

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♪ Oh ♪

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CLARENCE:
We were isolated.

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It was a community.

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You could see the river
from there.

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You hear of the song
Moon River,

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Johnny Mercer's from
Savannah.

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♪ Wherever you're goin', ♪

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♪ I'm goin' ♪

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CLARENCE:
I am descended from the west
African slaves

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who lived on the Barrier
Islands and in the low country

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of Georgia, South Carolina and
coastal northern Florida.

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In Georgia my people were
called Geechees,

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in South Carolina, Gullahs.

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It was just a distinctive
culture, it was West African.

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It had a mixture of English,
and other words,

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with kind of a diction that
was somewhat

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difficult to understand.

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(Geechee music)

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(♪)

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I know when I first went down to
Pin Point I said

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"Clarence, I can't understand
a word that they just said"

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because they talk in a dialect.

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So I just try to listen
and smile.

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CLARENCE:
I was born at home, right on
Shipyard Creek in 1948.

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My mother always I was too
stubborn to cry, and I guess

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that was a sort of indication of
the kind of person I would be.

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A middle child.

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My mother had all of us,
we think, before she was 20.

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And then she and my father
separated when I was a toddler.

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So I would have no
early memories of him.

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I have memories of other family
members, but he wasn't there.

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He wasn't among the family
members.

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[♪]

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CLARENCE:
Many of the men raked oysters

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during the winter,
and caught crabs,

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and fish in the spring
and summer.

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Their boats, which were called
bateaus,

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could be heard far away
in the marshes.

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They would slowly emerge from
the labyrinths

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of surrounding creeks and pull
up to the dock

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where the day's haul
was unloaded.

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The women picked crab; people
like my mother, and my relatives

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did that at the crab factory.

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And they also shucked oysters--
all of which is hard work.

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Well, when they were gone,
we were on our own.

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We were off on our adventures.

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[♪]

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We would catch minnows
in the creek.

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We would walk along the
water's edge,

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throwing oyster shells.

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Most people didn't have
store-bought toys.

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So, you had lots of old tires
that had gone bad.

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If you go back to the movie,
To Kill a Mockingbird--

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JEM FINCH:
You Ready?

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SCOUT FINCH:
Uh-huh, let her go.

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CLARENCE:
Scout, the young girl,

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when she is pushed into Boo
Radley's yard, she's in a tire.

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I have no idea how kids today
can have any idea

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what they were doing
with her inside a tire.

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We always did that.

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I remember years later reading
Huck Finn, and Tom Sawyer,

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and wondering what the fuss
was about.

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We had done a lot of
those things.

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One day I came home someone said
there had been a fire.

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And we get there, and this
little shack that we had

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all been living in was just
ashes and twisted tin.

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Everything that you ever knew in
life is just there,

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I mean it's smoldering.

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[♪]

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CLARENCE:
When I was a boy Savannah
was hell.

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My mother lived in one room in
an old tenement

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with an outdoor bathroom.

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That is the worst place
I've ever lived.

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And so, you had the contrast
between rural poverty,

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which is what we had in Pin
Point, which was very livable.

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And then you had urban squalor,
and that was horrible.

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Whenever you flushed the toilet,
or someone else flushed,

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it didn't actually go in
the sewer system.

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It went in somebody else's yard.

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My all encompassing word
is gross,

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I mean it was putrid.

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It was the smell
of raw sewage.

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There were these boards,
people would make these sort of

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makeshift paths to get across
the just,

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the gross wetness
in the back yard.

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Savannah is still
a segregated city.

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[♪]

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One of the major parks downtown
is a rectangle, Forsyth Park.

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You were never allowed to walk
to the interior of that park.

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That's how I figured out the
word "circumnavigate."

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You would walk around.

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You could not go across
the park.

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[♪]

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I was supposed to go to school
in the afternoons

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and my mother wasn't there to
make me go,

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because she had to go to
work, so I wandered

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the streets by myself.

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I was six.

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[♪]

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You were hungry, and didn't know
when you'd eat, and cold,

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and didn't know when you'd
be warm again.

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My mother had difficulty with
two little boys

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and working as a maid.

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So she asked my grandparents
for help.

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And my grandmother suggested
that she let--

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her raise these two boys.

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And one day, one Saturday
morning we w--, we woke up,

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and my mother said "Put all your
things in the grocery bag."

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And remember the paper grocery
bags in those days,

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and my brother took one, and
neither one was full.

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But we, all of our items, just
imagine everything you have

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in less than a paper bag.

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So, we took our grocery
bag each,

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and walked the couple of blocks
from Henry Lane,

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to East Thirty-Second Street.

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[♪]

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That was the longest, and
most significant journey

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I ever made, because it changed
my entire life.

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[♪]

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My grandfather was this myth.

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He was very stern.

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And he sat us there at the
kitchen table,

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and he said "Boys, the damn
vacation is over."

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And he said from then on it was
going to be

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"Rules and regulations" and
"Manners and behavior."

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Oh my goodness, and he meant it,
and he just explained what

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the rules were: my grandmother
was always right,

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that he was in charge.

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He made it very clear that it
was by grace that we were there

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- his grace.

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And the door in 1955 when we
went to live with him

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was swinging open, inward, and
if we didn't behave ourselves

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there'd be a day when
it would swing outward

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and we'd be asked to leave.

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They lived in this new house,
and it was beautiful.

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For us, it could have
been a palace.

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We had never been in a house
with a bathtub,

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beautiful white porcelain
toilet.

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My brother and I, one of our
activities was to flush

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that toilet every time
we had a chance.

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I mean we would walk by
and flush the toilet.

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And my grandfather said, he
would chastise us and said you,

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as he would say "You're runnin'
up my damn water bill."

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Beautiful, as we used to say
back then, modern kitchen

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with a refrigerator, etc.
and lots of food.

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And my grandmother would just
lavish you with those things.

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My grandmother was as sweet
as she could be

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she would always be
saintly.

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By the time we went to live with
my grandfather

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he was delivering fuel oil.

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The rule was: we got out of
school at 2:30;

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you had to be home, dressed,
and ready to be

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00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:20,292
on the oil truck by 3:00.

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00:14:20,292 --> 00:14:30,369
[♪]

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When you rode with him, he was
the professor.

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You could not initiate
a conversation,

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00:14:43,415 --> 00:14:47,253
so you were constantly getting
this one-way input.

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He thought that we were destined
to have to work for everything

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00:14:55,394 --> 00:14:59,298
because of what happened
in the Garden of Eden,

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00:14:59,298 --> 00:15:02,368
and because of our fallen
nature; we would have to earn

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00:15:02,368 --> 00:15:04,670
everything by the sweat
of our brow

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00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:06,472
- that was biblical.

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00:15:06,472 --> 00:15:10,042
And we would have to work from
sun to sun-- biblical.

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00:15:10,042 --> 00:15:14,213
The philosophy of life that he
had came from biblical sources.

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On Christmas Day 1957, we went
to the place where

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he had grown up,
which we called the farm.

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00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:34,366
[♪]

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The 60 acres had been passed
down
undivided from generation to

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generation as was customary with
land owned by Southern blacks.

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00:15:49,248 --> 00:15:57,389
[♪]

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And every summer after that
we farmed.

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He thought that we needed to be
kept busy during the summer.

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And he didn't want us around our
no good friends in the city,

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and "That riff raff."

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He said idle hands were
the devil's workshop.

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Your time is dominated by labor

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00:16:32,524 --> 00:16:35,594
and there's a lot of it,
from sun to sun.

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He started plowing with Cousin
Jack's horse, Lizzie,

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which was a very spirited
animal,

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00:16:47,006 --> 00:16:50,042
and we would go running
behind them.

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We cut down trees, and he would
always do it manually,

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00:16:55,047 --> 00:16:59,418
you didn't use a chainsaw,
you used a cross-cut saw.

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00:16:59,418 --> 00:17:04,623
It seems like everything
was made to be doubly hard.

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00:17:04,623 --> 00:17:07,693
You're a little kid you say
you can't do it.

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00:17:07,693 --> 00:17:09,294
And he would just say
over and

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00:17:09,294 --> 00:17:13,298
"Old man can't is dead,
I helped bury him".

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00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,502
CLARENCE:
You're building a fence line.

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00:17:16,502 --> 00:17:20,606
You had to learn how to stretch
barbed wire.

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If you did something stupid he
would say to you "You know what?

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00:17:26,512 --> 00:17:33,452
If I could cultivate your head
down to the size of your brain,

244
00:17:33,452 --> 00:17:38,290
a peanut hull would make
you a sun hat."

245
00:17:38,290 --> 00:17:40,759
Now that's not exactly a
compliment.

246
00:17:40,759 --> 00:17:43,729
CLARENCE:
You had to learn
how to gut fish.

247
00:17:43,729 --> 00:17:48,333
You don't want to be there and
up to your eyebrow in scales

248
00:17:48,333 --> 00:17:50,803
and fish guts, and the smell.

249
00:17:50,803 --> 00:17:54,773
And then the accompaniments:
the flies, the gnats,

250
00:17:54,773 --> 00:17:57,709
the mosquitos etc.

251
00:17:57,709 --> 00:17:59,278
And you'd say would you want
to give up.

252
00:17:59,278 --> 00:18:02,781
And he said, "You can give out
but you can't give up."

253
00:18:02,781 --> 00:18:06,218
My grandmother would say like
"You should give them

254
00:18:06,218 --> 00:18:07,686
a compliment or do this."

255
00:18:07,686 --> 00:18:10,756
And he said "No, that's their
job to do it right."

256
00:18:14,493 --> 00:18:17,729
The family farm
and our unheated oil truck

257
00:18:17,729 --> 00:18:22,201
became my most important
classrooms,

258
00:18:22,201 --> 00:18:26,405
the schools in which my
grandfather passed on the wisdom

259
00:18:26,405 --> 00:18:30,275
he had acquired as an
ill-educated modestly successful

260
00:18:30,275 --> 00:18:33,345
black man in the deep south.

261
00:18:36,748 --> 00:18:43,856
My grandfather understood that
education was the key because

262
00:18:43,856 --> 00:18:46,825
he didn't have it, and that's
what held him back.

263
00:18:46,825 --> 00:18:51,296
And he said that he went to
third grade but school

264
00:18:51,296 --> 00:18:55,601
was three months out of the year
because you had to work.

265
00:18:55,601 --> 00:18:57,469
MICHAEL:
Could he read the Bible?

266
00:18:57,469 --> 00:19:00,873
He could he could make out
certain words in the Bible.

267
00:19:00,873 --> 00:19:05,544
When he got a portion of it,
like most of the,

268
00:19:05,544 --> 00:19:08,714
of the people I knew, most were
uneducated,

269
00:19:08,714 --> 00:19:11,250
and most were functionally
illiterate,

270
00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:13,785
and many were
totally illiterate.

271
00:19:13,785 --> 00:19:17,723
They would get a part of the
Bible that they would memorize

272
00:19:17,723 --> 00:19:22,394
or that they knew the story and
that would become apart

273
00:19:22,394 --> 00:19:24,363
of their lexicon.

274
00:19:26,865 --> 00:19:29,301
CLARENCE:
He had gone his own way
and converted

275
00:19:29,301 --> 00:19:32,371
to Roman Catholicism in 1949.

276
00:19:36,575 --> 00:19:39,211
It followed that Catholic
schools had to be

277
00:19:39,211 --> 00:19:44,716
better than public schools so he
sent my brother and me to one.

278
00:19:48,253 --> 00:19:50,289
Remember now I am seven
years old.

279
00:19:50,289 --> 00:19:55,427
My brother is six and he says
to us "You are going to go

280
00:19:55,427 --> 00:20:00,199
to school every day,
and if you are sick,

281
00:20:00,199 --> 00:20:03,969
you are still going,
and if you die, you will go.

282
00:20:03,969 --> 00:20:06,805
I will take your body
for three days and make sure

283
00:20:06,805 --> 00:20:09,608
you're not faking",
and he meant it.

284
00:20:09,608 --> 00:20:12,978
The thing about it is, it's one
thing if somebody says it,

285
00:20:12,978 --> 00:20:16,248
and you think they're
exaggerating.

286
00:20:16,248 --> 00:20:17,916
He wasn't that kind of guy.

287
00:20:17,916 --> 00:20:25,390
[♪]

288
00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:27,793
CLARENCE:
The Catholic schools were
very orderly.

289
00:20:27,793 --> 00:20:29,962
My brother used to say
"When you walked in there

290
00:20:29,962 --> 00:20:32,531
you could hear a gnat tiptoeing
across cotton."

291
00:20:32,531 --> 00:20:39,371
[♪]

292
00:20:39,371 --> 00:20:41,473
It was segregated.

293
00:20:41,473 --> 00:20:45,010
The nuns didn't much appreciate
the fact that blacks

294
00:20:45,010 --> 00:20:47,980
were treated that way.

295
00:20:47,980 --> 00:20:51,683
They were mostly Irish nuns, and
they were outspoken too.

296
00:20:51,683 --> 00:20:53,452
Oh God, I love it.

297
00:20:53,452 --> 00:20:56,421
They were on our side
from day one.

298
00:20:56,421 --> 00:21:06,498
[♪]

299
00:21:09,034 --> 00:21:11,270
You knew they loved you.

300
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:12,838
And when somebody, when you
think somebody loves you

301
00:21:12,838 --> 00:21:16,708
and deeply cares about your
interests, somehow,

302
00:21:16,708 --> 00:21:20,746
they can get you to do
hard things.

303
00:21:20,746 --> 00:21:24,049
Sister Mary Virgilius,
my eighth-grade teacher,

304
00:21:24,049 --> 00:21:27,819
when she saw my entrance exam
scores to high school,

305
00:21:27,819 --> 00:21:34,326
she looks me in the eye in 1962
and says "You lazy thing you."

306
00:21:34,326 --> 00:21:36,295
In other words,
I was underachieving.

307
00:21:36,295 --> 00:21:40,032
It was actually accurate,
and I've never forgotten it.

308
00:21:44,770 --> 00:21:49,641
most dependable altar boys,
I had also been thinking about

309
00:21:49,641 --> 00:21:52,611
the possibility of becoming
a priest.

310
00:21:54,946 --> 00:21:58,417
A few months shy of my 16th
birthday I decided

311
00:21:58,417 --> 00:22:01,320
I wanted to enter
St. John Vianney,

312
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,391
the diocesan minor seminary, to
prepare for the priesthood.

313
00:22:09,895 --> 00:22:13,665
So, I told my grandfather who
wasn't initially

314
00:22:13,665 --> 00:22:18,737
all that excited,
because it was expensive,

315
00:22:18,737 --> 00:22:22,574
and I remember when he took me
to the front porch,

316
00:22:22,574 --> 00:22:26,078
to have a talk,

317
00:22:26,078 --> 00:22:28,880
and I told him that I thought
I had a vocation,

318
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,649
and it would be great.

319
00:22:30,649 --> 00:22:33,085
And he said, "Well, if you go
you know you can't quit."

320
00:22:33,085 --> 00:22:43,362
[♪]

321
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:49,401
I showed up one Sunday evening
with my grandfather.

322
00:22:49,401 --> 00:22:54,406
He drove me there and he dropped
me off, and then he left.

323
00:22:54,406 --> 00:22:57,642
And so I'm there by myself,
and I look around-

324
00:23:00,445 --> 00:23:05,650
I'm the new kid, so I'm the
outsider, and I'm black.

325
00:23:05,650 --> 00:23:07,386
So, obviously I didn't fit
right in.

326
00:23:07,386 --> 00:23:11,390
So, I was like "What the heck?"

327
00:23:13,792 --> 00:23:17,162
MICHAEL:
Did you have kind of a fear of
failure, in the early days?

328
00:23:17,162 --> 00:23:20,832
It's a new world in every way.

329
00:23:20,832 --> 00:23:23,635
It's a foreign world.

330
00:23:23,635 --> 00:23:27,706
And the work level,
the work is much more demanding.

331
00:23:27,706 --> 00:23:32,677
So obviously that would create
the sense in you

332
00:23:32,677 --> 00:23:38,917
that I may not be able to, to
live up to the expectation.

333
00:23:38,917 --> 00:23:46,925
[♪]

334
00:23:46,925 --> 00:23:51,930
Father Coleman said to me that
I would not be considered

335
00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:55,934
the equal of whites
if I didn't learn

336
00:23:55,934 --> 00:23:59,571
how to speak standard
English.

337
00:23:59,571 --> 00:24:05,544
As much as it hurt,
there was some truth to it.

338
00:24:05,544 --> 00:24:10,048
I'm some place between
my dialect,

339
00:24:10,048 --> 00:24:13,685
and quote unquote
talking "Southern."

340
00:24:13,685 --> 00:24:18,690
But certainly nothing close to
standard English.

341
00:24:18,690 --> 00:24:24,095
But internally, I vowed
to learn English,

342
00:24:24,095 --> 00:24:29,000
and that no one would be able to
ever say that about me.

343
00:24:34,473 --> 00:24:39,244
CLARENCE:
We were doing Robert Frost and
we came across this poem:

344
00:24:39,244 --> 00:24:42,781
"Two roads diverged in a wood,
and I took the one

345
00:24:42,781 --> 00:24:46,785
less traveled by, and that has
made all the difference."

346
00:24:46,785 --> 00:24:56,862
[♪]

347
00:25:01,233 --> 00:25:06,671
And what I was thinking was;
someplace in my life

348
00:25:06,671 --> 00:25:10,976
the roads had split off,
I was no longer in the world

349
00:25:10,976 --> 00:25:12,978
that was my comfort zone.

350
00:25:12,978 --> 00:25:23,054
[♪]

351
00:25:23,054 --> 00:25:27,993
I had gone to the seminary,
I had gone to all-white schools

352
00:25:27,993 --> 00:25:30,529
and then it's made all the
difference.

353
00:25:30,529 --> 00:25:32,063
What was that difference?

354
00:25:32,063 --> 00:25:33,732
That, I didn't know.

355
00:25:35,133 --> 00:25:37,202
I was never going to be a part
of that world;

356
00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:39,604
I was never going to be white.

357
00:25:39,604 --> 00:25:41,740
The problem is I could never go
back completely

358
00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:43,675
to the world I came from.

359
00:26:00,225 --> 00:26:02,894
I loved the contemplative life.

360
00:26:02,894 --> 00:26:07,299
I loved Lauds, which was
the morning prayers,

361
00:26:07,299 --> 00:26:09,801
vespers, evening prayers.

362
00:26:09,801 --> 00:26:12,137
I loved the Gregorian chant.

363
00:26:21,713 --> 00:26:24,215
Academically, I did very well.

364
00:26:29,154 --> 00:26:32,757
MICHAEL:
So what was the caption
alongside your photo?

365
00:26:32,757 --> 00:26:37,762
CLARENCE:
I think it's "Blew that test,
only a 98."

366
00:26:37,762 --> 00:26:41,166
Here was my thinking,
you assume you're going to be

367
00:26:41,166 --> 00:26:43,969
discriminated against,

368
00:26:43,969 --> 00:26:46,705
or at the very least you're
not going to

369
00:26:46,705 --> 00:26:49,841
be treated the same way
as whites.

370
00:26:49,841 --> 00:26:55,213
So, I can't get a 98.

371
00:26:55,213 --> 00:26:57,649
And if I'm going to force
someone to have to

372
00:26:57,649 --> 00:27:02,988
discriminate against me, then
I have to have a hundred.

373
00:27:02,988 --> 00:27:06,291
In other words, leave them
nothing but race,

374
00:27:06,291 --> 00:27:12,897
to force them. It's sort of
like, checkmate.

375
00:27:12,897 --> 00:27:14,132
OK?

376
00:27:18,737 --> 00:27:20,639
In those days the Catholic
church

377
00:27:20,639 --> 00:27:23,775
had little to say about racism.

378
00:27:23,775 --> 00:27:26,878
It seemed self-evident that the
treatment of blacks

379
00:27:26,878 --> 00:27:31,916
in America cried out for the
unequivocal condemnation

380
00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:34,252
of a righteous institution.

381
00:27:34,252 --> 00:27:38,890
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR:
Well, there may be some
tear gassing ahead.

382
00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:42,360
I say to you this afternoon that
I would rather die on the

383
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:46,197
highways of Alabama than make
a butchery of my conscience.

384
00:27:51,002 --> 00:27:54,072
POLICE:
See that they turn around
and disperse.

385
00:28:05,784 --> 00:28:09,020
CLARENCE:
Yet,
the church remained silent

386
00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:14,759
and its silence haunted me.

387
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:16,761
I prayed for guidance in the
presence

388
00:28:16,761 --> 00:28:18,763
of the Blessed Sacrament

389
00:28:18,763 --> 00:28:20,131
but instead
of comfort I found

390
00:28:20,131 --> 00:28:22,333
only sorrow and confusion.

391
00:28:28,073 --> 00:28:30,942
One day we were sitting in
class, I don't know,

392
00:28:30,942 --> 00:28:35,880
maybe history class, or
something.

393
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:41,319
People pass notes from time to
time, so I get a note;

394
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:46,725
the note said "I like Martin
Luther King",

395
00:28:46,725 --> 00:28:48,226
and then you open up,
it's a small note,

396
00:28:48,226 --> 00:28:53,031
you open up the inside, and it
just had the word, dead.

397
00:28:53,031 --> 00:28:58,036
You have a range of emotions:
disappointment, anger.

398
00:28:58,036 --> 00:28:59,304
You want to lash out.

399
00:28:59,304 --> 00:29:00,772
You want to yell.

400
00:29:03,441 --> 00:29:06,978
In the spring, when I was
walking back into the hall.

401
00:29:06,978 --> 00:29:09,914
Someone was down watching TV,
and he yelled out

402
00:29:09,914 --> 00:29:13,351
from the basement as I was
walking in the dorm.

403
00:29:13,351 --> 00:29:17,188
He said "Martin Luther
King has just been shot."

404
00:29:17,188 --> 00:29:20,859
NEWSCASTER:
Dr. King was standing on the
balcony of a second-floor

405
00:29:20,859 --> 00:29:22,927
hotel room tonight when,

406
00:29:22,927 --> 00:29:25,897
according to a companion,
a shot was fired from

407
00:29:25,897 --> 00:29:27,899
across the street.

408
00:29:27,899 --> 00:29:33,204
CLARENCE:
And the seminarian in front of
me said "That's good.

409
00:29:33,204 --> 00:29:35,240
I hope the son of a bitch dies."

410
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,242
And that was pretty much
the end of me.

411
00:29:37,242 --> 00:29:38,910
That was it.

412
00:29:38,910 --> 00:29:42,413
Because that was the opposite of
what I thought you said

413
00:29:42,413 --> 00:29:45,884
about a man of God
and what a seminarian,

414
00:29:45,884 --> 00:29:47,552
or the church, should do.

415
00:29:47,552 --> 00:29:52,557
To the extent that I had any
ambivalence, it ended that day.

416
00:29:52,557 --> 00:29:55,960
The priesthood had been my only
goal, and when that went away

417
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,364
it was like I was in a free
fall.

418
00:29:59,364 --> 00:30:05,370
So anyway I, I go home,
and now I face my grandfather.

419
00:30:05,370 --> 00:30:09,841
GINNI THOMAS:
As Clarence tells me about going
to his grandfather to tell him

420
00:30:09,841 --> 00:30:14,946
he was quitting the seminary it
probably was the hardest point

421
00:30:14,946 --> 00:30:20,285
of his life, to tell that man
that he was disappointing him.

422
00:30:24,522 --> 00:30:26,558
And I'd like to say, "It was
facing the music",

423
00:30:26,558 --> 00:30:28,126
but it wasn't music.

424
00:30:28,126 --> 00:30:34,933
It was a stony silence almost,
and it was a coldness.

425
00:30:34,933 --> 00:30:39,103
So he took me
to the living room,

426
00:30:39,103 --> 00:30:43,007
and he said that, as he had
promised when we came to live

427
00:30:43,007 --> 00:30:47,278
in '55, 1955, the door opened
inward then,

428
00:30:47,278 --> 00:30:49,347
now it was opening outward.

429
00:30:49,347 --> 00:30:51,583
And I was to
leave his house if I was,

430
00:30:51,583 --> 00:30:57,355
since I had made decisions of
a man, I should live like one.

431
00:30:57,355 --> 00:31:03,094
And he said, I will never
forget, "To-day, this day."

432
00:31:03,094 --> 00:31:04,562
I think I was fumbling around,
I said

433
00:31:04,562 --> 00:31:06,231
"Well, are you still going to
help me with college?"

434
00:31:06,231 --> 00:31:09,601
He said "No. You're a man.
You figure it out."

435
00:31:14,272 --> 00:31:18,543
CLARENCE:
Where could I go?
What would I do?

436
00:31:18,543 --> 00:31:23,147
First the seminary, then the
country,

437
00:31:23,147 --> 00:31:27,151
now the only real home
I'd ever known.

438
00:31:27,151 --> 00:31:29,153
All were crashing around me.

439
00:31:29,153 --> 00:31:39,230
[♪]

440
00:31:43,568 --> 00:31:47,238
My mother had an extra room in
her apartment,

441
00:31:47,238 --> 00:31:50,341
so I went over there.

442
00:31:50,341 --> 00:31:53,077
MICHAEL:
I think you've said it felt like
you were reversing

443
00:31:53,077 --> 00:31:54,913
your first walk to your
grandfather's.

444
00:31:54,913 --> 00:32:00,318
Yeah, I was going from 1955,
I had come to

445
00:32:00,318 --> 00:32:03,554
this wonderful place that
was a sanctuary,

446
00:32:03,554 --> 00:32:06,991
and now I was going back
to live with my mother

447
00:32:06,991 --> 00:32:08,526
in her apartment.

448
00:32:08,526 --> 00:32:13,097
NEWSCASTER 1:
Washington, Chicago, Boston,
New York, these are

449
00:32:13,097 --> 00:32:16,000
just a few of the cities in
which the negro anguish

450
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,638
over Dr. King's murder expressed
itself in violent destruction.

451
00:32:20,638 --> 00:32:24,943
CLARENCE:
Summer of '68 was when you had
a lot of the riots,

452
00:32:24,943 --> 00:32:27,378
I mean I thought everything was
coming apart

453
00:32:27,378 --> 00:32:30,315
NEWSCASTER 2:
Some buildings were put to the
torch while the looters

454
00:32:30,315 --> 00:32:34,319
stripped block after block of
stores along 7th Street.

455
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:38,723
CLARENCE:
I was getting ready for work and
I was listening to the radio

456
00:32:38,723 --> 00:32:40,291
while I did that.

457
00:32:40,291 --> 00:32:43,461
NEWSCASTER:
Oh my God. Senator
Kennedy has been shot.

458
00:32:48,032 --> 00:32:50,535
CLARENCE:
And they announced that he had
been assassinated.

459
00:32:50,535 --> 00:32:56,441
Well I mean, I dropped to my
knees, I said "it's over."

460
00:32:56,441 --> 00:32:58,276
Bad things were happening.

461
00:32:58,276 --> 00:33:00,511
My grandfather had kicked
me out.

462
00:33:00,511 --> 00:33:04,515
I remember sitting there,
"Kennedy, King, Kennedy."

463
00:33:04,515 --> 00:33:07,051
"KKK" I remember writing it.

464
00:33:07,051 --> 00:33:08,519
Oh my God, there it is!

465
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:10,688
'KKK'you know.

466
00:33:10,688 --> 00:33:15,393
And it was, it was, that was
probably the last straw.

467
00:33:15,393 --> 00:33:18,429
I mean, I didn't need a last
straw but that was it.

468
00:33:18,429 --> 00:33:20,999
That was the nail
in the coffin for me.

469
00:33:26,170 --> 00:33:31,509
And for the first time in my
life racism and race

470
00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:33,011
explained everything.

471
00:33:33,011 --> 00:33:37,715
It became, sort of,
the substitute religion;

472
00:33:37,715 --> 00:33:41,352
I shoved aside Catholicism and
now it was this,

473
00:33:41,352 --> 00:33:43,354
it was all about race.

474
00:33:43,354 --> 00:33:52,063
[♪]

475
00:33:52,063 --> 00:33:55,633
Every southern black had known
such moments and felt the rage

476
00:33:55,633 --> 00:33:58,669
that threatened to burn through
the mask of meekness

477
00:33:58,669 --> 00:34:04,809
and submission behind which we
hid our true feelings.

478
00:34:04,809 --> 00:34:06,411
I'm angry with my grandfather.

479
00:34:06,411 --> 00:34:09,347
I'm angry with the church.

480
00:34:09,347 --> 00:34:10,515
If it's a warm day, I'm angry.

481
00:34:10,515 --> 00:34:12,316
If it's a cold day, I'm angry.

482
00:34:12,316 --> 00:34:17,088
I'm sort of flying, lashing out
at every single thing.

483
00:34:17,088 --> 00:34:20,191
Nothing is right.

484
00:34:20,191 --> 00:34:22,226
I'm staying in
a room with a mynah bird,

485
00:34:22,226 --> 00:34:25,663
with my mother,
with her two big dogs.

486
00:34:25,663 --> 00:34:29,534
But the one out, that I do have,

487
00:34:29,534 --> 00:34:33,304
is that I was accepted
to Holy Cross.

488
00:34:33,304 --> 00:34:37,642
I've got one door is open, only
one, and that was Holy Cross.

489
00:34:53,391 --> 00:34:57,862
GINNI THOMAS:
When he left the seminary and
found his way to Holy Cross,

490
00:34:57,862 --> 00:35:05,837
he was entering society that
was in turmoil,

491
00:35:05,837 --> 00:35:09,774
and he found his way to other
blacks at Holy Cross

492
00:35:09,774 --> 00:35:13,277
who were very radical
and Marxist.

493
00:35:13,277 --> 00:35:20,218
[♪]

494
00:35:20,218 --> 00:35:22,787
We're supposed to be
revolutionaries.

495
00:35:22,787 --> 00:35:27,592
So you go to the local army navy
store in Worcester,

496
00:35:27,592 --> 00:35:32,296
and you get army fatigues,
and boots.

497
00:35:32,296 --> 00:35:34,332
Why that was the dress is beyond
me,

498
00:35:34,332 --> 00:35:38,202
but that's the way we dressed.

499
00:35:38,202 --> 00:35:41,906
I wore carpenter's pants,
and bib overalls.

500
00:35:47,378 --> 00:35:49,280
STOKELY CARMICHAEL:
We are going to shoot the cops
who are shooting

501
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,517
our black brothers in the back
in this country!

502
00:35:56,521 --> 00:35:59,390
We were for anybody who was kind
of, in your face.

503
00:35:59,390 --> 00:36:03,361
It could be Stokely Carmichael,
it could be H. Rap Brown.

504
00:36:03,361 --> 00:36:06,364
H RAP BROWN:
The brothers in here maintain
that they will stay here until

505
00:36:06,364 --> 00:36:09,934
the university is
willing to talk on their terms.

506
00:36:09,934 --> 00:36:13,871
It could be Angela Davis,
it could be Huey Newton.

507
00:36:13,871 --> 00:36:17,942
So the more radical tended to be
the people we gravitated toward.

508
00:36:21,546 --> 00:36:26,651
Art Martin decided to start a
black student union, and he had

509
00:36:26,651 --> 00:36:31,389
some ideas, but I could type.
I said "I'll type it up."

510
00:36:31,389 --> 00:36:35,226
I had my trusty Smith-Corona
typewriter

511
00:36:35,226 --> 00:36:36,594
with automatic return.

512
00:36:36,594 --> 00:36:37,795
I said
"What do you want in it?"

513
00:36:37,795 --> 00:36:40,731
He said
"anything you put in it."

514
00:36:40,731 --> 00:36:44,235
So I typed it up and that became
the Black Student Union.

515
00:36:46,304 --> 00:36:50,908
MICHAEL:
When did you first meet Kathy
Ambush, and what was she like?

516
00:36:50,908 --> 00:36:55,713
CLARENCE:
I met her in my sophomore year.

517
00:36:55,713 --> 00:36:58,783
Our politics overlapped,
our politics tended to be

518
00:36:58,783 --> 00:37:01,819
more radical, to the left.

519
00:37:01,819 --> 00:37:04,889
We started dating, and would
date throughout my time

520
00:37:04,889 --> 00:37:06,324
at Holy Cross.

521
00:37:09,794 --> 00:37:14,498
When I would go back home, the
exchanges with my grand father

522
00:37:14,498 --> 00:37:18,769
were really horrible.

523
00:37:18,769 --> 00:37:21,806
Because I'd talk about the
revolution, and I would

524
00:37:21,806 --> 00:37:25,443
be drinking, and would, and
wouldn't comb my hair,

525
00:37:25,443 --> 00:37:28,813
and it was bad.

526
00:37:28,813 --> 00:37:31,682
And he looked at me would say
and he "I didn't raise

527
00:37:31,682 --> 00:37:33,484
you to be like this."

528
00:37:38,556 --> 00:37:45,630
"After all our sacrifices,
this is what you've become."

529
00:37:45,630 --> 00:37:50,568
I thought he was weak.

530
00:37:50,568 --> 00:37:54,872
And he thought I was,
I'd gone up north and become,

531
00:37:54,872 --> 00:37:57,508
as he said, "one of those damn
educated fools."

532
00:37:57,508 --> 00:38:00,278
That I went up north and they
put all that foolishness

533
00:38:00,278 --> 00:38:02,313
in my head.

534
00:38:02,313 --> 00:38:07,285
And my brother who came from the
Vietnam War didn't like it.

535
00:38:07,285 --> 00:38:12,790
CLARENCE:
He told me that all of us should
leave the country.

536
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:14,025
MICHAEL:
All you radicals?

537
00:38:14,025 --> 00:38:16,827
All of us should leave
the country.

538
00:38:16,827 --> 00:38:21,999
He had no use for any of us.

539
00:38:21,999 --> 00:38:25,803
CLARENCE:
But I went right back to
my radical friends.

540
00:38:25,803 --> 00:38:27,705
In the spring of 1970 I was one

541
00:38:27,705 --> 00:38:31,676
of several Black Students Union
members who went to Boston

542
00:38:31,676 --> 00:38:36,080
to take part in an anti-war
rally.

543
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,450
The organizers of the rally
urged us to march to

544
00:38:39,450 --> 00:38:42,386
Harvard square to protest the
treatment

545
00:38:42,386 --> 00:38:46,757
of America's domestic
political prisoners.

546
00:38:46,757 --> 00:38:50,728
Off we went chanting
"Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh."

547
00:38:50,728 --> 00:38:53,397
And demanding freedom
for Angela Davis,

548
00:38:53,397 --> 00:38:57,635
Erica Huggins and anyone
else we could think of.

549
00:38:57,635 --> 00:39:02,673
On the way to Cambridge we
stopped at this liquor store,

550
00:39:02,673 --> 00:39:08,012
and this poor guy, he saw us,
and he gave us the liquor.

551
00:39:08,012 --> 00:39:11,015
I think he gave us some
potato chips, or something, too.

552
00:39:11,015 --> 00:39:13,684
But he said "just go."

553
00:39:13,684 --> 00:39:16,354
And then on the way we consumed
this liquid courage, you know?

554
00:39:17,922 --> 00:39:23,461
Then we proceeded to be back and
forth in Cambridge all night.

555
00:39:23,461 --> 00:39:28,466
I mean there was teargas,
sirens, it was bad.

556
00:39:28,466 --> 00:39:38,542
[♪]

557
00:39:46,817 --> 00:39:53,457
getting hurt, or anything else,
or what was happening

558
00:39:53,457 --> 00:39:55,126
to other people.

559
00:39:57,962 --> 00:40:01,098
I got back to campus at
4 in the morning,

560
00:40:01,098 --> 00:40:04,635
horrified by what I had just
done.

561
00:40:04,635 --> 00:40:08,005
I had let myself be swept
up by an angry mob

562
00:40:08,005 --> 00:40:13,077
for no good reason other than,
that I too was angry.

563
00:40:16,914 --> 00:40:20,418
I stopped in front of the chapel
and prayed for the first time

564
00:40:20,418 --> 00:40:25,556
in nearly 2 years.

565
00:40:25,556 --> 00:40:29,593
I asked God, I said "If you take
anger out of my heart,

566
00:40:29,593 --> 00:40:32,663
I'll never hate again."

567
00:40:37,034 --> 00:40:40,471
And that was the beginning of
the slow return

568
00:40:40,471 --> 00:40:42,540
to where I started.

569
00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:52,616
[♪]

570
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:10,067
[♪]

571
00:41:10,067 --> 00:41:13,571
CLARENCE:
You know what Yale was back in
the 1970s.

572
00:41:13,571 --> 00:41:19,243
Yale was, four generations
of Groton and, and

573
00:41:19,243 --> 00:41:26,951
Phillips Exeter, and "my
father's grandfather was here."

574
00:41:26,951 --> 00:41:32,990
And there were secret societies,
and all that sort of stuff.

575
00:41:32,990 --> 00:41:35,659
It was a different world,
and it was a world that

576
00:41:35,659 --> 00:41:39,730
I didn't quite understand.

577
00:41:39,730 --> 00:41:46,103
When Jamal was born in February
of my second year of law school.

578
00:41:46,103 --> 00:41:49,006
It woke me up about the
direction that we were

579
00:41:49,006 --> 00:41:51,742
headed in in our country,
and what the prospects

580
00:41:51,742 --> 00:41:53,811
would be for him.

581
00:41:59,250 --> 00:42:02,553
I watched busing on TV, and
busing was a big deal,

582
00:42:02,553 --> 00:42:05,589
remember because it was
so violent in Boston.

583
00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:09,527
NEWSCASTER:
By federal court order a fleet
of buses was hired to transport

584
00:42:09,527 --> 00:42:11,629
black students to all white
schools,

585
00:42:11,629 --> 00:42:13,831
and whites to black
neighborhoods.

586
00:42:13,831 --> 00:42:16,133
Coming to South Boston,
a traditionally conservative

587
00:42:16,133 --> 00:42:19,603
and Irish enclave,
blacks who made

588
00:42:19,603 --> 00:42:22,873
the trip were met with cat
calls, curses and worse.

589
00:42:22,873 --> 00:42:29,079
[♪]

590
00:42:32,950 --> 00:42:37,988
CLARENCE:
I'd been to South Boston,
and I was scared to death

591
00:42:37,988 --> 00:42:41,292
to be over there,

592
00:42:41,292 --> 00:42:45,629
and the schools were as
bad as the schools in Roxbury

593
00:42:45,629 --> 00:42:47,898
where the black kids were from.

594
00:42:47,898 --> 00:42:50,334
So why were you sending a kid
through all that trouble,

595
00:42:50,334 --> 00:42:53,304
to go to school that's as bad,
or worse?

596
00:42:53,304 --> 00:42:55,072
That didn't make any
sense to me.

597
00:42:55,072 --> 00:42:59,176
Someone has a theory, and then
they insert human beings

598
00:42:59,176 --> 00:43:06,050
You know sort of like
"have theory, add people."

599
00:43:06,050 --> 00:43:08,319
You know, it's like, instant,

600
00:43:08,319 --> 00:43:11,155
instant coffee or something.

601
00:43:11,155 --> 00:43:12,189
"Have coffee."

602
00:43:12,189 --> 00:43:13,824
"Add water."

603
00:43:15,693 --> 00:43:18,796
But I knew one thing, nobody was
going to have

604
00:43:18,796 --> 00:43:22,366
some social experiment and throw
my son in there.

605
00:43:22,366 --> 00:43:32,643
[♪]

606
00:43:32,643 --> 00:43:40,851
In law school, I would describe
myself as a lazy libertarian.

607
00:43:40,851 --> 00:43:43,253
And it was because I was looking
at structures,

608
00:43:43,253 --> 00:43:45,222
or restrictions on me.

609
00:43:45,222 --> 00:43:48,292
Whether there were religious
restrictions, or structures or

610
00:43:48,292 --> 00:43:51,195
strictures on me.

611
00:43:51,195 --> 00:43:56,166
My grandfather and his rules,
society and its rules,

612
00:43:56,166 --> 00:43:58,736
and I guess in a sense,
I was saying

613
00:43:58,736 --> 00:44:01,872
"all of you leave me alone."

614
00:44:01,872 --> 00:44:06,677
In fact, my mantra, when I was
in
law school, is "leave me alone."

615
00:44:08,412 --> 00:44:11,281
BOARD MEMBER 1:
Mr. Roark, the commission
is yours.

616
00:44:11,281 --> 00:44:12,750
MICHAEL:
Were you influenced by

617
00:44:12,750 --> 00:44:14,952
Ayn Rand's
libertarian philosophy?

618
00:44:14,952 --> 00:44:17,221
CLARENCE:
You know, Ayn Rand and
Fountainhead started

619
00:44:17,221 --> 00:44:20,424
and this would play out later
in law school.

620
00:44:20,424 --> 00:44:25,095
BOARD MEMBER 2:
We want you to
adapt your building like this.

621
00:44:25,095 --> 00:44:26,964
BOARD MEMBER 1:
And we must always compromise
with the general taste

622
00:44:26,964 --> 00:44:28,832
Mr. Roark, you understand
that I'm sure.

623
00:44:28,832 --> 00:44:31,935
HOWARD ROARK:
No.

624
00:44:31,935 --> 00:44:34,371
If you want my work you must
take it as it is or not at all.

625
00:44:34,371 --> 00:44:38,208
CLARENCE:
And so, when you read these
books, you say "Yeah, OK.

626
00:44:38,208 --> 00:44:42,780
I'll become a day laborer rather
than be told what to do."

627
00:44:42,780 --> 00:44:44,915
BOARD MEMBER 3:
Roark, this is sheer insanity
can't you give in just once?

628
00:44:44,915 --> 00:44:46,383
After all, you have to live.

629
00:44:46,383 --> 00:44:51,355
BOARD MEMBER 3:
How else?
Don't you have to work?

630
00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:57,194
HOWARD ROARK:
I'd rather work as
a day laborer if necessary.

631
00:44:57,194 --> 00:45:00,297
CLARENCE:
I would rather total failure in
your world than to be told

632
00:45:00,297 --> 00:45:04,935
what to do, or to be made to do
something that I think is wrong.

633
00:45:09,707 --> 00:45:15,379
Yale was the end of the line,
and I made it through.

634
00:45:15,379 --> 00:45:18,482
So, I really wanted my
grandfather to be there to

635
00:45:18,482 --> 00:45:24,788
witness the end, to witness that
the kid that he took in in 1955,

636
00:45:24,788 --> 00:45:26,924
crossed the finish line.

637
00:45:26,924 --> 00:45:33,097
[♪]

638
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,005
My grandfather did not come.

639
00:45:42,005 --> 00:45:44,441
He always had a reason.

640
00:45:44,441 --> 00:45:48,879
And you know, I think in
sort of, I think he was upset

641
00:45:48,879 --> 00:45:51,115
with me,
I could understand that.

642
00:45:51,115 --> 00:45:55,185
And I certainly had not given
him many good reasons to have

643
00:45:55,185 --> 00:45:59,223
any deep, and warm or fuzzy
feelings about me,

644
00:45:59,223 --> 00:46:01,825
or my graduation.

645
00:46:01,825 --> 00:46:05,062
So, nobody could come.

646
00:46:05,062 --> 00:46:13,270
That was probably more difficult
for me, and embittered me,

647
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:15,139
more than anything else.

648
00:46:17,775 --> 00:46:23,347
I interviewed for jobs in D.C.,
Atlanta, New York, L.A.,

649
00:46:23,347 --> 00:46:29,787
with anyone,
anywhere who might hire me.

650
00:46:29,787 --> 00:46:33,557
If you were black, and you were
at Yale, the presumptions

651
00:46:33,557 --> 00:46:36,160
were quite different
than, if you were white.

652
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,862
So if you're white,
and you graduated from Yale,

653
00:46:38,862 --> 00:46:40,531
the presumption is what?

654
00:46:40,531 --> 00:46:44,168
It is that you are really among
the best.

655
00:46:44,168 --> 00:46:48,338
On the other hand, if you're
black and you're there,

656
00:46:48,338 --> 00:46:50,808
you didn't really quite
belong there.

657
00:46:50,808 --> 00:46:53,577
So, we'll discount that a bit.

658
00:46:53,577 --> 00:46:56,814
They can say 10 percent,
5 percent whatever.

659
00:46:56,814 --> 00:47:01,852
But the reality was the
discounted approach resulted in

660
00:47:01,852 --> 00:47:05,856
certainly me not being able
to get a job.

661
00:47:05,856 --> 00:47:08,058
MICHAEL:
But, eventually,
the Missouri Attorney General,

662
00:47:08,058 --> 00:47:10,527
Jack Danforth,
offered you a job.

663
00:47:10,527 --> 00:47:12,162
CLARENCE:
It was the only job offer I got.

664
00:47:12,162 --> 00:47:15,999
It was the quintessential
Hobson's choice.

665
00:47:15,999 --> 00:47:19,570
He went on to promise me
"Clarence, I promise you more

666
00:47:19,570 --> 00:47:23,540
work for less money,
than anybody in the country."

667
00:47:24,875 --> 00:47:29,847
The pay was ten thousand
eight hundred.

668
00:47:29,847 --> 00:47:34,117
The hardest part about taking
the job was,

669
00:47:34,117 --> 00:47:36,486
he was a Republican,

670
00:47:36,486 --> 00:47:41,024
and the idea of working for
a Republican

671
00:47:41,024 --> 00:47:43,894
was repulsive, at best.

672
00:47:43,894 --> 00:47:45,529
I was a registered Democrat.

673
00:47:45,529 --> 00:47:48,031
I was left wing.

674
00:47:48,031 --> 00:47:52,169
As nice as he was,
he was still a Republican.

675
00:47:53,403 --> 00:47:57,574
Putting that nicety aside,
I wound up going.

676
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,390
Cases poured through there;
in those days

677
00:48:13,390 --> 00:48:17,895
the Attorney General's office
handled all the appeals

678
00:48:17,895 --> 00:48:20,964
from the local prosecutors
across the state.

679
00:48:22,099 --> 00:48:25,502
At the time, my thinking was
that all blacks

680
00:48:25,502 --> 00:48:27,137
were political prisoners.

681
00:48:27,137 --> 00:48:29,439
That's, that's sort
of the sophisticated level

682
00:48:29,439 --> 00:48:33,377
at which I looked at the
criminal justice system.

683
00:48:33,377 --> 00:48:36,513
I worried about what I would do,
when I got a case

684
00:48:36,513 --> 00:48:42,452
involving black defendants,
and then it happened.

685
00:48:42,452 --> 00:48:47,357
This guy was sitting on a bench,
or something,

686
00:48:47,357 --> 00:48:49,359
and this black woman comes by.

687
00:48:49,359 --> 00:48:51,295
He's black, she's black.

688
00:48:51,295 --> 00:48:53,297
She's got her two, or three,
year old kid in the car

689
00:48:53,297 --> 00:48:57,935
In those days, most people
didn't have air conditioning.

690
00:48:57,935 --> 00:48:59,536
So, the windows are down.

691
00:48:59,536 --> 00:49:02,706
He comes up to the car,
at the stop light,

692
00:49:02,706 --> 00:49:06,410
with an old style can opener,
with a point, puts it to

693
00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:10,614
the kid's neck, and forces his
way in the car,

694
00:49:10,614 --> 00:49:13,483
threatening the kid.

695
00:49:13,483 --> 00:49:16,586
And then he takes her to
a remote location,

696
00:49:16,586 --> 00:49:22,125
rapes and sodomizes her, and he
takes her to another location,

697
00:49:22,125 --> 00:49:25,629
and rapes and sodomizes
her again.

698
00:49:25,629 --> 00:49:29,299
This case was far from unusual.

699
00:49:29,299 --> 00:49:33,103
Blacks were responsible for
almost 80% of violent crimes

700
00:49:33,103 --> 00:49:36,673
committed against blacks,
and killed over 90%

701
00:49:36,673 --> 00:49:39,242
of black murder victims.

702
00:49:39,242 --> 00:49:45,315
For most people that would be
obvious, for me it was one of

703
00:49:45,315 --> 00:49:47,417
these road to Damascus
experiences.

704
00:49:51,722 --> 00:49:56,560
Jack Danforth got elected to the
Senate, and I had already

705
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,663
been there two and a half years,
and I really wanted

706
00:49:59,663 --> 00:50:02,566
to move more toward business.

707
00:50:02,566 --> 00:50:04,668
I had better options now.

708
00:50:04,668 --> 00:50:14,011
[♪]

709
00:50:14,011 --> 00:50:20,650
It was a fine job but it was not
enough work for me.

710
00:50:20,650 --> 00:50:22,753
I had too much energy.

711
00:50:22,753 --> 00:50:26,590
They spoon-fed the work
and they parceled it out.

712
00:50:26,590 --> 00:50:29,593
I was used to the work
pouring in.

713
00:50:29,593 --> 00:50:33,663
My Grandfather's Son, I noticed
that Monsanto employed a number

714
00:50:33,663 --> 00:50:37,367
of talented blacks who should
have been moving up

715
00:50:37,367 --> 00:50:39,703
the corporate ladder
far more quickly.

716
00:50:39,703 --> 00:50:44,808
MICHAEL:
Did you go to speak to the
affirmative action manager?

717
00:50:44,808 --> 00:50:49,479
I confronted him about it and he
pulls out this EEO report

718
00:50:49,479 --> 00:50:51,348
with the numbers on it;
it was one of these

719
00:50:51,348 --> 00:50:55,519
computer print-outs, as though
those are people.

720
00:50:55,519 --> 00:50:58,288
You know he's not talking about
who is getting training,

721
00:50:58,288 --> 00:51:02,559
whose got mentors,
what assignments they have,

722
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:04,628
who is getting promoted.

723
00:51:04,628 --> 00:51:07,731
He's got this report that he
shows to the labor department,

724
00:51:07,731 --> 00:51:09,766
and that is these
statistics.

725
00:51:09,766 --> 00:51:13,637
MICHAEL:
The affirmative action manager,
he was African American?

726
00:51:13,637 --> 00:51:15,372
Yes, yeah, mhm.

727
00:51:15,372 --> 00:51:17,474
MICHAEL:
He wasn't sympathetic?

728
00:51:17,474 --> 00:51:22,746
He was doing his job and his
reports said he was OK.

729
00:51:22,746 --> 00:51:26,650
MICHAEL:
He didn't care that these other
black managers were stalled?

730
00:51:26,650 --> 00:51:29,119
Well I don't know if he cared.

731
00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:31,822
He was doing his job, and the
reports were OK.

732
00:51:31,822 --> 00:51:33,723
That's the most I got.

733
00:51:33,723 --> 00:51:36,693
But I just thought that
we're kidding ourselves.

734
00:51:36,693 --> 00:51:43,133
We're looking at numbers and the
numbers prove everything,

735
00:51:43,133 --> 00:51:46,570
and human beings are having
a lot of difficulties.

736
00:51:48,438 --> 00:51:50,774
CLARENCE:
I could feel the golden
handcuffs

737
00:51:50,774 --> 00:51:54,111
of a comfortable but
unfulfilling life snapping

738
00:51:54,111 --> 00:51:56,213
shut on my wrists.

739
00:51:56,213 --> 00:52:00,283
I had to quit now
or I never would.

740
00:52:05,322 --> 00:52:10,494
And shortly after that I get
a call from Senator Danforth

741
00:52:10,494 --> 00:52:13,530
to see if I would be interested
in working for him.

742
00:52:13,530 --> 00:52:23,607
[♪]

743
00:52:30,147 --> 00:52:33,550
RONALD REAGAN:
More than anything else I want
my candidacy

744
00:52:33,550 --> 00:52:38,288
to unify our country,
to renew the American spirit,

745
00:52:38,288 --> 00:52:40,657
and sense of purpose.

746
00:52:40,657 --> 00:52:42,893
CLARENCE:
In the fall of 1980 I had
decided

747
00:52:42,893 --> 00:52:45,162
to vote for Ronald Reagan.

748
00:52:45,162 --> 00:52:48,431
It was a giant step for
a black man.

749
00:52:48,431 --> 00:52:52,903
But I was distressed by
the Democratic party's promises

750
00:52:52,903 --> 00:52:57,407
to legislate the problems of
blacks out of existence.

751
00:52:57,407 --> 00:53:01,444
RONALD REAGAN:
I pledge to you to restore the
federal government the capacity

752
00:53:01,444 --> 00:53:06,349
to do the people's work without
dominating their lives.

753
00:53:06,349 --> 00:53:09,186
CLARENCE:
Reagan by contrast
was promising

754
00:53:09,186 --> 00:53:12,222
an end to the indiscriminate
social engineering

755
00:53:12,222 --> 00:53:14,291
of the 60's and 70's.

756
00:53:17,260 --> 00:53:21,598
Reagan won in a landslide.

757
00:53:21,598 --> 00:53:23,233
RONALD REAGAN:
So help me God.

758
00:53:23,233 --> 00:53:24,768
CHIEF JUSTICE:
May I congratulate you, Sir.

759
00:53:38,248 --> 00:53:40,417
CLARENCE:
For the first time
in my adult life

760
00:53:40,417 --> 00:53:42,919
Washington was full of serious
talk about

761
00:53:42,919 --> 00:53:45,288
the possibility of getting
government off the backs

762
00:53:45,288 --> 00:53:47,224
of the poor.

763
00:53:48,625 --> 00:53:50,760
THOMAS SOWELL:
This is really an historic
opportunity.

764
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,697
The economic and social
advancement of blacks

765
00:53:53,697 --> 00:53:56,766
in this country is still
a great unfinished task.

766
00:53:56,766 --> 00:54:00,770
CLARENCE:
Tom Sowell invited me to this
conference.

767
00:54:00,770 --> 00:54:03,773
And it would be named the
Fairmont Conference

768
00:54:03,773 --> 00:54:10,013
because it was held at the
Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco.

769
00:54:10,013 --> 00:54:15,785
It was how do we rethink
the policies toward blacks

770
00:54:15,785 --> 00:54:19,489
in this country
in a new administration?

771
00:54:19,489 --> 00:54:22,726
THOMAS SOWELL:
Many social problems are
worsening,

772
00:54:22,726 --> 00:54:24,894
continued disintegration of
families

773
00:54:24,894 --> 00:54:26,830
CLARENCE:
I sat at this table.

774
00:54:26,830 --> 00:54:30,267
And there was a young
black reporter there.

775
00:54:30,267 --> 00:54:32,636
And I knew nothing
about the press.

776
00:54:32,636 --> 00:54:37,040
One question he asked me
was "why was I so interested

777
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:38,775
in all these social issues?"

778
00:54:38,775 --> 00:54:41,911
And I explained to him because
of the destruction I saw

779
00:54:41,911 --> 00:54:45,048
it doing at home in Savannah.

780
00:54:45,048 --> 00:54:47,784
And as an example of that,
I used my sister and her

781
00:54:47,784 --> 00:54:53,790
kids being objects of these
programs.

782
00:54:56,059 --> 00:54:59,729
Little did I know, he would
write an article about this,

783
00:54:59,729 --> 00:55:01,965
and would turn it into
an op-ed.

784
00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:12,042
[♪]

785
00:55:12,042 --> 00:55:16,479
GINNI THOMAS:
The article by Juan Williams
became a point

786
00:55:16,479 --> 00:55:20,050
at which Clarence became
a public persona.

787
00:55:20,050 --> 00:55:30,327
[♪]

788
00:55:35,498 --> 00:55:38,968
Then license is given to others,
to attack you in whatever

789
00:55:38,968 --> 00:55:40,603
way they want to.

790
00:55:40,603 --> 00:55:42,906
You're not really black because
you're not doing

791
00:55:42,906 --> 00:55:45,008
what you expect black people
to do.

792
00:55:45,008 --> 00:55:49,813
You weren't supposed to oppose
busing; you weren't supposed

793
00:55:49,813 --> 00:55:51,448
to oppose welfare.

794
00:55:54,718 --> 00:56:00,623
MICHAEL:
Perhaps it marked a course
for you, Justice Thomas.

795
00:56:00,623 --> 00:56:03,093
CLARENCE:
Oh, I don't know if it marked
the course,

796
00:56:03,093 --> 00:56:05,662
but there was no going back.

797
00:56:05,662 --> 00:56:15,739
[♪]

798
00:56:25,682 --> 00:56:35,759
[♪]

799
00:56:50,173 --> 00:56:54,844
The Reagan administration was
running into the storm.

800
00:56:54,844 --> 00:56:57,847
Everything the president did,
he was called a racist.

801
00:56:57,847 --> 00:57:00,650
That was from the very
beginning.

802
00:57:00,650 --> 00:57:02,952
I was under constant attack.

803
00:57:02,952 --> 00:57:11,094
We have attempted in the last
2 years to remedy a wide range

804
00:57:11,094 --> 00:57:16,499
NEWSCASTER:
Congressman Barney Frank says he
remains skeptical of progress

805
00:57:16,499 --> 00:57:18,735
under the current
administration.

806
00:57:18,735 --> 00:57:23,673
RONALD REAGAN:
I'm pleased that this is also an
opportunity to acknowledge

807
00:57:23,673 --> 00:57:28,511
CLARENCE:
We have a positive record that
we should never back down from.

808
00:57:28,511 --> 00:57:31,881
That point is one that
I cannot stress enough.

809
00:57:31,881 --> 00:57:34,918
Any black misguided enough to
accept a job

810
00:57:34,918 --> 00:57:38,888
in the Reagan administration
was automatically branded

811
00:57:38,888 --> 00:57:40,890
an Uncle Tom.

812
00:57:42,592 --> 00:57:45,962
After I wrote a letter to the
editor of Playboy,

813
00:57:45,962 --> 00:57:49,899
taking issue with a 1986 article
by Hodding Carter,

814
00:57:49,899 --> 00:57:54,804
called "Reagan and the Revival
of Racism",

815
00:57:54,804 --> 00:57:59,742
Carter responded as follows:

816
00:57:59,742 --> 00:58:09,819
[♪]

817
00:58:17,627 --> 00:58:21,598
Not a single civil rights leader
objected to this

818
00:58:21,598 --> 00:58:24,667
nakedly racist language.

819
00:58:28,171 --> 00:58:30,173
MICHAEL:
On the personal side, your
marriage was strained

820
00:58:30,173 --> 00:58:31,708
at this point?

821
00:58:31,708 --> 00:58:34,210
It is one of those things and I
just I didn't think

822
00:58:34,210 --> 00:58:38,047
it was going to work.

823
00:58:38,047 --> 00:58:40,183
I think many people go
through that.

824
00:58:41,150 --> 00:58:45,922
But what do you think was
the reason in this case?

825
00:58:45,922 --> 00:58:51,528
I, the, it just wasn't there,
and I think that

826
00:58:51,528 --> 00:58:57,033
you have to be honest
with yourself, and not wait

827
00:58:57,033 --> 00:58:59,969
until it deteriorates,
or you do harm to somebody

828
00:58:59,969 --> 00:59:02,705
who did you no harm.

829
00:59:02,705 --> 00:59:05,675
MICHAEL:
I can imagine how difficult it
must have been,

830
00:59:05,675 --> 00:59:07,076
for all three of you.

831
00:59:07,076 --> 00:59:10,747
Yeah, it was--
You know, you live with it.

832
00:59:14,117 --> 00:59:16,586
CLARENCE:
Jamal came to live with me.

833
00:59:16,586 --> 00:59:18,588
His mother thought
it would be best

834
00:59:18,588 --> 00:59:21,658
for me to have primary
responsibility.

835
00:59:24,060 --> 00:59:27,630
Being with him, was my happy
place, being at home with him.

836
00:59:27,630 --> 00:59:36,105
[♪]

837
00:59:36,105 --> 00:59:40,076
MICHAEL:
How did you first hear
that your grandfather was dying?

838
00:59:40,076 --> 00:59:42,345
Well I had been,
I don't know why how we get

839
00:59:42,345 --> 00:59:45,014
so busy in D.C.

840
00:59:45,014 --> 00:59:50,253
I totally regret not going home
more, I just regret it.

841
00:59:53,289 --> 00:59:56,859
CLARENCE:
I was with my brother,
and um,

842
00:59:56,859 --> 00:59:59,762
he told me my grandfather
had died.

843
01:00:02,699 --> 01:00:04,701
And that was like,

844
01:00:04,701 --> 01:00:06,703
I think from then on
I was in a bit of a fog.

845
01:00:06,703 --> 01:00:08,371
It was really horrible.

846
01:00:13,176 --> 01:00:17,180
When I got to the funeral,
no sooner did the service begin

847
01:00:17,180 --> 01:00:21,884
than I started to weep
shamelessly and uncontrollably.

848
01:00:25,254 --> 01:00:30,727
was think of the things I wish
I had done differently.

849
01:00:30,727 --> 01:00:35,231
Why had I spent
so much time arguing with him?

850
01:00:35,231 --> 01:00:39,235
I would never be able to tell
him how right he'd been,

851
01:00:39,235 --> 01:00:43,740
or how much I admired
and loved him.

852
01:00:43,740 --> 01:00:51,214
[♪]

853
01:00:51,214 --> 01:00:54,317
Shortly after my
grandfather's death

854
01:00:54,317 --> 01:00:59,756
my grandmother had a stroke
while lying in bed.

855
01:00:59,756 --> 01:01:05,061
Within an hour or so,
she was dead.

856
01:01:05,061 --> 01:01:07,230
Certainly, it was like a trap
door,

857
01:01:07,230 --> 01:01:10,033
somebody opened the trap door,
and you fell through it.

858
01:01:10,033 --> 01:01:13,870
And there was no foundation.

859
01:01:13,870 --> 01:01:17,240
And by the time I went back to
Washington,

860
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,909
I had thought
a lot more about things.

861
01:01:22,912 --> 01:01:30,086
I would go outside
and gaze at the Capitol Dome.

862
01:01:30,086 --> 01:01:32,422
So, I'm asking myself
why am I doing this?

863
01:01:32,422 --> 01:01:35,758
There is nothing positive going
on,

864
01:01:35,758 --> 01:01:38,127
and I am getting the heck beat
out of me.

865
01:01:38,127 --> 01:01:40,963
I had to then flip it around
a little bit.

866
01:01:40,963 --> 01:01:43,833
For what will you die?

867
01:01:43,833 --> 01:01:47,303
Is there something
in life that you will die for?

868
01:01:49,272 --> 01:01:52,075
What about your principles?

869
01:01:52,075 --> 01:01:56,212
So, I decided that the
principles

870
01:01:56,212 --> 01:01:58,948
on which I was raised,
my grandparents,

871
01:01:58,948 --> 01:02:00,983
the principles
of this country,

872
01:02:00,983 --> 01:02:03,920
were worth dying for.

873
01:02:08,925 --> 01:02:13,229
So what are these principles?

874
01:02:13,229 --> 01:02:17,066
I was interested in,
why this government?

875
01:02:17,066 --> 01:02:19,135
Why this government?

876
01:02:19,135 --> 01:02:20,970
Why not a parliamentary system?

877
01:02:20,970 --> 01:02:23,172
Why not a dictatorship?

878
01:02:23,172 --> 01:02:27,143
When Clarence was at EEOC,
one of the best things,

879
01:02:27,143 --> 01:02:28,945
looking back,
that he did

880
01:02:28,945 --> 01:02:32,982
was to hire two speech writers
who worked with him

881
01:02:32,982 --> 01:02:36,285
on reading founding documents,

882
01:02:36,285 --> 01:02:40,323
and understanding
American exceptionalism.

883
01:02:40,323 --> 01:02:46,796
So, John Marini
and Ken Masugi were anchors

884
01:02:46,796 --> 01:02:51,334
for what came out to be his
jurisprudence.

885
01:02:51,334 --> 01:02:56,773
And we would literally spend
hours discussing the founding.

886
01:02:56,773 --> 01:02:58,541
And then they would give me
reading materials,

887
01:02:58,541 --> 01:03:02,145
and we would write articles,
and we would go off to

888
01:03:02,145 --> 01:03:04,981
American Political Science
Association events,

889
01:03:04,981 --> 01:03:08,885
and argue with positivists,
and libertarians.

890
01:03:08,885 --> 01:03:09,919
Oh, gosh.

891
01:03:09,919 --> 01:03:11,387
It was, now that was a lot
of fun,

892
01:03:11,387 --> 01:03:17,293
in the sea of all this stuff.

893
01:03:17,293 --> 01:03:21,430
Thomas Jefferson had written
in 1776

894
01:03:21,430 --> 01:03:24,834
"All men are created
equal.

895
01:03:24,834 --> 01:03:26,502
They are endowed by their
creator

896
01:03:26,502 --> 01:03:30,139
with certain
unalienable rights."

897
01:03:30,139 --> 01:03:32,942
That's natural law
in a nutshell.

898
01:03:37,213 --> 01:03:39,949
How then could a country founded
on these principles

899
01:03:39,949 --> 01:03:43,986
have permitted slavery
and segregation to exist?

900
01:03:43,986 --> 01:03:47,290
The answer was that it couldn't,

901
01:03:47,290 --> 01:03:50,393
not without being untrue
to its own ideals.

902
01:03:50,393 --> 01:03:58,234
[♪]

903
01:03:58,234 --> 01:04:00,937
I was looking
for a way of thinking,

904
01:04:00,937 --> 01:04:04,974
a set of ideals
that fundamentally, at its core,

905
01:04:04,974 --> 01:04:08,911
said slavery is wrong,
at its core--

906
01:04:08,911 --> 01:04:11,013
which natural law
of course does.

907
01:04:11,013 --> 01:04:18,287
[♪]

908
01:04:20,289 --> 01:04:23,326
I was scheduled to go
up to New York to a meeting,

909
01:04:23,326 --> 01:04:26,295
and she happened to be there.

910
01:04:26,295 --> 01:04:30,066
GINNI THOMAS:
We met in 1986 at a conference

911
01:04:30,066 --> 01:04:33,169
on how long does America need
race preference policies

912
01:04:33,169 --> 01:04:34,871
to get over slavery.

913
01:04:34,871 --> 01:04:39,508
And his experiences were
so resonant, and so powerful,

914
01:04:39,508 --> 01:04:42,578
and so genuine.

915
01:04:42,578 --> 01:04:44,480
I was struck by him.

916
01:04:47,250 --> 01:04:51,654
CLARENCE:
She was a gift
from God that I had prayed for.

917
01:04:51,654 --> 01:04:53,990
And, you know then I was iffy,

918
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:57,426
because I started questioning
God's package.

919
01:04:57,426 --> 01:04:58,995
You know,
like what are you doing?

920
01:04:58,995 --> 01:05:01,998
(Chuckles)

921
01:05:01,998 --> 01:05:04,066
You pray
for God to send you someone,

922
01:05:04,066 --> 01:05:07,904
he sends you someone,
and you say "Oh but she's white"

923
01:05:07,904 --> 01:05:08,971
or "she's younger."

924
01:05:08,971 --> 01:05:10,072
He's sent you someone.

925
01:05:10,072 --> 01:05:11,641
What are you talking about?

926
01:05:11,641 --> 01:05:13,142
So that was the end of that,

927
01:05:13,142 --> 01:05:18,547
and she has been a fabulous gift
from God.

928
01:05:18,547 --> 01:05:28,624
[♪]

929
01:05:43,239 --> 01:05:46,375
George H.W. Bush's transition
team

930
01:05:46,375 --> 01:05:51,247
asked if I would be interested
in becoming a federal judge?

931
01:05:51,247 --> 01:05:53,582
"That's a job for old people",
I said.

932
01:05:53,582 --> 01:05:59,622
I can't see myself spending the
rest of my life as a judge."

933
01:05:59,622 --> 01:06:02,425
They asked me to talk
to Larry Silberman

934
01:06:02,425 --> 01:06:05,461
who was a judge
on the D.C. Circuit.

935
01:06:05,461 --> 01:06:07,630
I said "Larry, I don't want
a lifetime appointment."

936
01:06:07,630 --> 01:06:09,198
He said "Clarence,
it's not slavery.

937
01:06:09,198 --> 01:06:12,234
You can leave
if you don't like it."

938
01:06:12,234 --> 01:06:21,344
[♪]

939
01:06:21,344 --> 01:06:23,746
But once I got
to the D.C. Circuit,

940
01:06:23,746 --> 01:06:25,348
I really enjoyed it.

941
01:06:25,348 --> 01:06:26,415
I enjoyed the work.

942
01:06:26,415 --> 01:06:28,584
I liked the people.

943
01:06:28,584 --> 01:06:31,454
Virginia worked across the
street from me.

944
01:06:31,454 --> 01:06:33,756
So we commuted in every day

945
01:06:33,756 --> 01:06:35,658
and we really enjoyed
our little house.

946
01:06:35,658 --> 01:06:37,660
We really enjoyed our projects.

947
01:06:37,660 --> 01:06:41,430
We enjoyed our anonymity,
and our time together.

948
01:06:41,430 --> 01:06:43,632
Here at home the search is on
for a Supreme Court nominee

949
01:06:43,632 --> 01:06:46,402
With the retirement
of Justice Thurgood Marshall.

950
01:06:46,402 --> 01:06:51,140
CLARENCE:
All I know is that
Justice Marshall retired,

951
01:06:51,140 --> 01:06:53,376
and that was a shock.

952
01:06:53,376 --> 01:06:55,378
So, I went to work
on Sunday,

953
01:06:55,378 --> 01:06:58,581
one of my law clerks was all up
in arms,

954
01:06:58,581 --> 01:07:01,217
and he says "Kennebunkport is
on the line."

955
01:07:01,217 --> 01:07:03,519
It was the president telling me
to come up on Monday,

956
01:07:03,519 --> 01:07:08,424
to have lunch to discuss this
Supreme Court thing.

957
01:07:08,424 --> 01:07:11,527
PRESIDENT BUSH:
I am very pleased to announce

958
01:07:11,527 --> 01:07:14,730
that I will nominate
Judge Clarence Thomas

959
01:07:14,730 --> 01:07:18,734
to serve as associate justice of
the United States Supreme Court.

960
01:07:18,734 --> 01:07:22,438
What do you say to critics who
say the only reason you're being

961
01:07:22,438 --> 01:07:25,775
picked is because you're black?

962
01:07:25,775 --> 01:07:28,077
I think a lot worse things have
been said.

963
01:07:28,077 --> 01:07:31,781
I disagree with that,
but I'll have to live with it.

964
01:07:31,781 --> 01:07:33,215
PRESIDENT:
Refer them to the President.

965
01:07:33,215 --> 01:07:34,583
[Laughter]

966
01:07:34,583 --> 01:07:36,185
How about that
for an answer?

967
01:07:36,185 --> 01:07:37,686
Well, I'll also say
I didn't make the selection.

968
01:07:37,686 --> 01:07:41,824
CLARENCE:
I mean the attacks started
immediately.

969
01:07:41,824 --> 01:07:44,794
And the things they accuse
you of--

970
01:07:44,794 --> 01:07:50,366
they accuse of everything
but murder, I guess.

971
01:07:50,366 --> 01:07:52,601
NEWSCASTER 1:
The Senate Majority Leader,
George Mitchell told reporters

972
01:07:52,601 --> 01:07:54,437
that the nomination shows that
President Bush

973
01:07:54,437 --> 01:07:56,238
is against quotas for every
position

974
01:07:56,238 --> 01:07:57,673
except the Supreme Court.

975
01:07:57,673 --> 01:08:00,509
NEWSCASTER 2:
Judge Thomas
praises Louis Farrakhan,

976
01:08:00,509 --> 01:08:04,113
the Black Muslim minister
notorious for his pro-Hitler,

977
01:08:04,113 --> 01:08:06,082
anti-Semitic rhetoric.

978
01:08:06,082 --> 01:08:09,118
NEWSCASTER 3:
Thomas' strict
Catholic education terrifies

979
01:08:09,118 --> 01:08:14,090
abortion rights groups afraid
of more abortion restrictions.

980
01:08:14,090 --> 01:08:18,294
MICHAEL:
Did you meet with the
board members of the NAACP?

981
01:08:18,294 --> 01:08:20,563
They said they were
going to be noncommittal,

982
01:08:20,563 --> 01:08:22,331
and were not going to oppose me.

983
01:08:22,331 --> 01:08:25,334
Well, shortly after that
they opposed me.

984
01:08:25,334 --> 01:08:29,138
His inconsistent views
on civil rights policies,

985
01:08:29,138 --> 01:08:32,174
which make him an unpredictable
element

986
01:08:32,174 --> 01:08:36,812
in an increasingly radical
and conservative court.

987
01:08:36,812 --> 01:08:38,581
And what I was told by friends,

988
01:08:38,581 --> 01:08:42,218
who gave me a copy
of the AFLCIO's letter to them,

989
01:08:42,218 --> 01:08:45,821
requiring them to oppose me.

990
01:08:45,821 --> 01:08:47,656
What I was told was that they
needed cover

991
01:08:47,656 --> 01:08:51,127
for the women's groups
to oppose me.

992
01:08:51,127 --> 01:08:54,163
So they needed the NAACP
out front.

993
01:08:54,163 --> 01:08:56,832
ACTIVIST:
Write your senators
and representatives,

994
01:08:56,832 --> 01:08:59,902
tell them Clarence Thomas is
unacceptable.

995
01:08:59,902 --> 01:09:02,738
He has indicated that he
believes in natural law

996
01:09:02,738 --> 01:09:06,175
and he does not believe
in privacy.

997
01:09:06,175 --> 01:09:09,345
We don't need a lot
of questions to be asked

998
01:09:09,345 --> 01:09:13,782
before we Bork this guy,
we simply immediately Bork him.

999
01:09:13,782 --> 01:09:16,152
CALL ROOM:
We want you to organize pickets
of their offices,

1000
01:09:16,152 --> 01:09:18,587
follow them from the airport
to their supermarket.

1001
01:09:18,587 --> 01:09:20,422
PATRICIA IRELAND:
There is substantial opposition
to Clarence Thomas.

1002
01:09:20,422 --> 01:09:23,926
His history of supporting
a judicial philosophy

1003
01:09:23,926 --> 01:09:25,694
that is really out
of step with the Bill of Rights

1004
01:09:25,694 --> 01:09:29,865
and the Constitution.

1005
01:09:29,865 --> 01:09:32,801
CLARENCE:
We know exactly what's
going on here,

1006
01:09:32,801 --> 01:09:35,905
and to pretend that it is
for some other reason, stop.

1007
01:09:35,905 --> 01:09:39,708
Do I have like "stupid" written
on the back of my shirt?

1008
01:09:41,177 --> 01:09:43,812
I mean, come on,
we know what this is all about.

1009
01:09:43,812 --> 01:09:45,481
This isn't about what they say
it's about,

1010
01:09:45,481 --> 01:09:47,583
so people should just tell the
truth.

1011
01:09:47,583 --> 01:09:49,318
This is the wrong black guy.

1012
01:09:49,318 --> 01:09:50,619
He has to be destroyed.

1013
01:09:50,619 --> 01:09:54,690
Then now at least we are honest
with each other.

1014
01:09:58,294 --> 01:10:00,763
[cameras clicking]

1015
01:10:08,437 --> 01:10:12,675
GINNI THOMAS:
He knew he was going into
the trial of his life

1016
01:10:12,675 --> 01:10:15,744
with the Senate run
by the Democrats.

1017
01:10:18,647 --> 01:10:21,717
SENATOR BIDEN:
The hearing will come to order.

1018
01:10:22,985 --> 01:10:26,255
GINNI THOMAS:
We knew it was
in the lion's den.

1019
01:10:28,524 --> 01:10:30,859
SENATOR BIDEN:
Good morning, Judge.

1020
01:10:30,859 --> 01:10:32,962
Welcome to the blinding lights.

1021
01:10:36,599 --> 01:10:39,702
Finding out what
you mean when you say

1022
01:10:39,702 --> 01:10:41,870
that you would apply the natural
law philosophy

1023
01:10:41,870 --> 01:10:44,940
to the Constitution is,
in my view,

1024
01:10:44,940 --> 01:10:48,544
the single most important task
of this committee.

1025
01:10:48,544 --> 01:10:51,247
MICHAEL:
Senator Biden was very
focused natural law.

1026
01:10:51,247 --> 01:10:56,385
Who knows, I have no idea
what he was talking about.

1027
01:10:56,385 --> 01:10:58,654
SENATOR BIDEN:
I just want to make sure we all
know

1028
01:10:58,654 --> 01:11:01,957
That you and I know, at least,
what we are talking about here.

1029
01:11:01,957 --> 01:11:06,795
There is a fervent and
aggressive school of thought

1030
01:11:06,795 --> 01:11:12,468
that wishes to see natural law
further inform the Constitution

1031
01:11:12,468 --> 01:11:17,706
Argued against by the
positivists, led by Judge Bork.

1032
01:11:17,706 --> 01:11:20,476
Now again, that may be lost
on all the people,

1033
01:11:20,476 --> 01:11:24,880
you know and I know
what we are talking about.

1034
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:26,949
CLARENCE:
I have to be perfectly
honest with you.

1035
01:11:26,949 --> 01:11:30,986
You sit there, and you have
no idea

1036
01:11:30,986 --> 01:11:34,790
what they are talking about.

1037
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:37,526
All I know is that he was asking
me these questions

1038
01:11:37,526 --> 01:11:42,331
Someone may apply
it in a way, like Moore,

1039
01:11:42,331 --> 01:11:46,402
who leads him in a direction
that is, quote, "liberal."

1040
01:11:46,402 --> 01:11:48,904
You may apply it in a way
that leads you in a direction

1041
01:11:48,904 --> 01:11:52,908
that is conservative,
or you may,

1042
01:11:52,908 --> 01:11:57,746
like many argue,
not apply it at all.

1043
01:11:57,746 --> 01:12:01,050
But it is a fundamental question

1044
01:12:01,050 --> 01:12:03,585
that is going to be
almost impossible

1045
01:12:03,585 --> 01:12:07,523
for non-lawyers to grasp
in an exchange,

1046
01:12:07,523 --> 01:12:11,060
but you know and I know
it is a big, big deal,

1047
01:12:11,060 --> 01:12:14,863
CLARENCE:
One of the things you do
in hearings

1048
01:12:14,863 --> 01:12:18,867
is you have to sit there
and look attentively at people

1049
01:12:18,867 --> 01:12:22,671
you know have no idea what
they're talking about.

1050
01:12:22,671 --> 01:12:24,540
And it was fine.

1051
01:12:24,540 --> 01:12:26,542
I understood what he was trying
to do.

1052
01:12:26,542 --> 01:12:29,445
I didn't really appreciate it.

1053
01:12:29,445 --> 01:12:33,082
Natural law was nothing more
than a way of tricking me

1054
01:12:33,082 --> 01:12:36,085
into talking about abortion,

1055
01:12:36,085 --> 01:12:39,021
since many Catholic moral
philosophers

1056
01:12:39,021 --> 01:12:43,058
saw the two things
as intimately related.

1057
01:12:43,058 --> 01:12:46,895
But my interest
in natural law was different.

1058
01:12:46,895 --> 01:12:51,734
SENATOR BIDEN:
Those who subscribe
to this moral-code view

1059
01:12:51,734 --> 01:12:53,736
of natural law
call into question

1060
01:12:53,736 --> 01:12:57,439
a wide range
of personal and family rights,

1061
01:12:57,439 --> 01:12:59,641
from reproductive freedom

1062
01:12:59,641 --> 01:13:03,112
to each individual's choice
over procreation.

1063
01:13:03,112 --> 01:13:12,521
[♪]

1064
01:13:12,521 --> 01:13:15,724
NEWSCASTER:
On day two, Judiciary committee
Democrats tried again,

1065
01:13:15,724 --> 01:13:17,126
but again couldn't convince
Clarence Thomas

1066
01:13:17,126 --> 01:13:19,061
of their need to know
how he would rule

1067
01:13:19,061 --> 01:13:22,064
on a woman's right to an
abortion.

1068
01:13:22,064 --> 01:13:27,136
REPORTER:
How are you?
Are you holding up okay?

1069
01:13:27,136 --> 01:13:29,538
NEWSCASTER:
Clarence Thomas signaled he is
holding up just fine

1070
01:13:29,538 --> 01:13:31,473
as he went before
the Senate Judiciary committee

1071
01:13:31,473 --> 01:13:32,741
for a third day.

1072
01:13:32,741 --> 01:13:36,578
Abortion, once again,
topped the agenda.

1073
01:13:36,578 --> 01:13:40,082
CLARENCE:
Most of my opponents
on the judiciary committee

1074
01:13:40,082 --> 01:13:41,884
cared about only one thing.

1075
01:13:41,884 --> 01:13:45,087
How would I rule
on abortion rights?

1076
01:13:45,087 --> 01:13:46,889
You really didn't
matter,

1077
01:13:46,889 --> 01:13:49,091
and your life didn't matter.

1078
01:13:49,091 --> 01:13:52,594
What mattered was
what they wanted,

1079
01:13:52,594 --> 01:13:56,865
and what they wanted was this
particular issue.

1080
01:13:56,865 --> 01:14:00,202
SENATOR LEAHY:
Have you ever had discussion of
Roe v. Wade,

1081
01:14:00,202 --> 01:14:04,506
other than in this room?

1082
01:14:04,506 --> 01:14:07,576
JUDGE THOMAS:
Only, I guess, Senator,
in the fact

1083
01:14:07,576 --> 01:14:10,012
that in the most general sense.

1084
01:14:10,012 --> 01:14:11,647
If you are asking me whether
or not

1085
01:14:11,647 --> 01:14:13,582
I have ever debated the
contents of it,

1086
01:14:13,582 --> 01:14:16,051
the answer to that is no,
Senator.

1087
01:14:16,051 --> 01:14:18,687
SENATOR LEAHY:
Well, with all due respect,
Judge,

1088
01:14:18,687 --> 01:14:23,025
I have some difficulty
with your answer.

1089
01:14:23,025 --> 01:14:27,029
You ask us to believe that an
intelligent and outspoken person

1090
01:14:27,029 --> 01:14:30,966
like yourself has never
discussed Roe v. Wade

1091
01:14:30,966 --> 01:14:33,735
with another human being?

1092
01:14:33,735 --> 01:14:36,805
MICHAEL:
They refused to believe you had
not discussed Roe v. Wade.

1093
01:14:36,805 --> 01:14:38,106
Well you know what?

1094
01:14:38,106 --> 01:14:39,508
They should--

1095
01:14:39,508 --> 01:14:41,743
They refuse to believe a lot
of things.

1096
01:14:41,743 --> 01:14:44,179
It's really--
Isn't that fascinating?

1097
01:14:44,179 --> 01:14:46,715
I had to,
I had to have discussed it

1098
01:14:46,715 --> 01:14:48,750
because they wanted me to had to
have discussed it.

1099
01:14:48,750 --> 01:14:51,887
It goes back to thing about
affirmative action.

1100
01:14:51,887 --> 01:14:53,956
You have to believe
in affirmative action,

1101
01:14:53,956 --> 01:14:56,492
because we think you ought to
believe in affirmative action.

1102
01:14:56,492 --> 01:14:59,528
Well how is that different
from slavery?

1103
01:14:59,528 --> 01:15:01,563
How is that different
from segregation?

1104
01:15:01,563 --> 01:15:02,865
How is that different
from being told

1105
01:15:02,865 --> 01:15:04,700
"you can't walk
across that park"?

1106
01:15:04,700 --> 01:15:06,134
"Oh, you can't think
those thoughts."

1107
01:15:06,134 --> 01:15:07,202
How is that any different?

1108
01:15:07,202 --> 01:15:10,906
I'd prefer to be excluded
from the park

1109
01:15:10,906 --> 01:15:13,642
because I can live my life
quite freely

1110
01:15:13,642 --> 01:15:16,044
without having set foot
in a park.

1111
01:15:16,044 --> 01:15:17,112
But you can't live it freely

1112
01:15:17,112 --> 01:15:20,682
without having
your own thoughts.

1113
01:15:20,682 --> 01:15:24,219
I felt as though
in my life,

1114
01:15:24,219 --> 01:15:29,992
I had been looking at the wrong
people,

1115
01:15:29,992 --> 01:15:33,762
as the people who would be
problematic toward me.

1116
01:15:33,762 --> 01:15:37,666
We were told that "Oh it's going
to be the bigot

1117
01:15:37,666 --> 01:15:39,034
in the pickup truck.

1118
01:15:39,034 --> 01:15:41,970
It's going be the Klansman.

1119
01:15:41,970 --> 01:15:45,140
It's going to be the rural
sheriff."

1120
01:15:45,140 --> 01:15:47,009
And I'm not saying that there
weren't

1121
01:15:47,009 --> 01:15:49,811
some of those who were bad,

1122
01:15:49,811 --> 01:15:53,248
but it turned out,
that through all of that,

1123
01:15:53,248 --> 01:15:56,151
ultimately the biggest
impediment,

1124
01:15:56,151 --> 01:15:59,021
was the modern day liberal.

1125
01:15:59,021 --> 01:16:03,825
That they were the ones who
would discount all those things,

1126
01:16:03,825 --> 01:16:06,828
because they have one issue,

1127
01:16:06,828 --> 01:16:08,864
or because they can they have
the authority,

1128
01:16:08,864 --> 01:16:11,099
the power to caricature you.

1129
01:16:13,035 --> 01:16:14,570
Thank you all, and thank you
and your family

1130
01:16:14,570 --> 01:16:17,706
We will recess for five minutes.

1131
01:16:17,706 --> 01:16:27,783
[♪]

1132
01:16:31,153 --> 01:16:33,155
CLARENCE:
We were just exhausted.

1133
01:16:33,155 --> 01:16:36,858
So, we went over just briefly,
and it was out of season

1134
01:16:36,858 --> 01:16:38,994
to Cape May,

1135
01:16:38,994 --> 01:16:41,330
just to get away
from the Washington area.

1136
01:16:41,330 --> 01:16:51,607
[♪]

1137
01:16:58,146 --> 01:17:00,282
We had just gotten back,

1138
01:17:00,282 --> 01:17:05,220
and that's when all heck
broke loose.

1139
01:17:05,220 --> 01:17:07,756
GINNI THOMAS:
A call came from the White House

1140
01:17:07,756 --> 01:17:10,959
that we were going to be
visited by the FBI.

1141
01:17:10,959 --> 01:17:12,828
MICHAEL:
What was that like when
the FBI came?

1142
01:17:12,828 --> 01:17:14,329
As soon as they stepped in,
they said

1143
01:17:14,329 --> 01:17:15,831
"do you know Anita Hill?"

1144
01:17:15,831 --> 01:17:19,267
And then they said "Did you ever
try to go out with her

1145
01:17:19,267 --> 01:17:22,304
or did you ever discuss
pornographic stuff with her?"

1146
01:17:22,304 --> 01:17:24,139
"No, no way."

1147
01:17:24,139 --> 01:17:26,008
And that was, I said
"you got to be kidding me."

1148
01:17:26,008 --> 01:17:28,243
And then it's just like,
you're deflated.

1149
01:17:28,243 --> 01:17:30,979
You said "This is where we're
going now."

1150
01:17:30,979 --> 01:17:34,349
And, so I maybe, I felt more
like Joseph K in The Trial,

1151
01:17:38,754 --> 01:17:41,056
that suddenly you're minding
your business,

1152
01:17:41,056 --> 01:17:43,759
and you were arrested
one morning.

1153
01:17:47,663 --> 01:17:51,400
You're entering an
unknown world.

1154
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:54,136
Well, this obviously isn't
anything of any importance.

1155
01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:58,407
Quite honestly, I can't remember
a single offense

1156
01:17:58,407 --> 01:18:00,375
that could be charged
against me.

1157
01:18:02,310 --> 01:18:05,914
It's obviously a mistake,
something very trivial.

1158
01:18:08,684 --> 01:18:11,953
CLARENCE:
I have no idea what I
was supposed to have done.

1159
01:18:11,953 --> 01:18:15,023
I'm sorry to disappoint you
but I am afraid

1160
01:18:15,023 --> 01:18:16,258
that you wont find
any subversive literature

1161
01:18:16,258 --> 01:18:17,359
or pornography.

1162
01:18:17,359 --> 01:18:18,694
Don't touch those record albums!

1163
01:18:18,694 --> 01:18:21,196
AGENT 1:
What is this thing?

1164
01:18:21,196 --> 01:18:24,032
-My phonograph.
-AGENT 2: Well, what's this?

1165
01:18:24,032 --> 01:18:26,368
CLARENCE:
The FBI called back
that afternoon,

1166
01:18:26,368 --> 01:18:29,705
they said that "This is
uncorroborated.

1167
01:18:29,705 --> 01:18:32,274
There are no facts,"

1168
01:18:32,274 --> 01:18:34,810
that "We don't think
there's anything to it."

1169
01:18:52,260 --> 01:18:54,329
NINA TOTENBERG: In
an affidavit filed
with Senate
Judiciary committee

1170
01:18:54,329 --> 01:18:56,832
law professor
Anita Hill

1171
01:18:56,832 --> 01:18:59,234
said Thomas began
asking her out socially

1172
01:18:59,234 --> 01:19:00,902
and refused to
accept her
explanation

1173
01:19:00,902 --> 01:19:02,170
that she did not
think it appropriate

1174
01:19:02,170 --> 01:19:04,372
to go out with
her boss.

1175
01:19:04,372 --> 01:19:07,242
The relationship,
she said, became
even more strained

1176
01:19:07,242 --> 01:19:13,014
when Thomas, in
work situations,
began to discuss
sex.

1177
01:19:13,014 --> 01:19:14,216
It was leaked.

1178
01:19:14,216 --> 01:19:17,152
This was a, this was a crime.

1179
01:19:17,152 --> 01:19:20,522
This was a criminal act
that did this.

1180
01:19:20,522 --> 01:19:25,494
But in any case, it was leaked,
and that changed everything.

1181
01:19:25,494 --> 01:19:29,898
REPORTER:
Judge, do you think you are
being treated unfairly, sir?

1182
01:19:29,898 --> 01:19:33,235
MICHAEL:
After the leak the media just
camped out at your house?

1183
01:19:33,235 --> 01:19:35,170
CLARENCE:
Yeah, they stayed,
and then whenever we left,

1184
01:19:35,170 --> 01:19:36,972
there would be a chase car,

1185
01:19:36,972 --> 01:19:40,041
and there was a motorcycle
behind us.

1186
01:19:40,041 --> 01:19:43,145
So, you're literally
under siege.

1187
01:19:43,145 --> 01:19:45,447
NEWSCASTER:
The opponents of Supreme Court
nominee Clarence Thomas

1188
01:19:45,447 --> 01:19:48,083
want to delay a vote on this
confirmation

1189
01:19:48,083 --> 01:19:51,086
because of charges
of sexual harassment.

1190
01:19:51,086 --> 01:19:53,255
In light of these revelations
which we consider to be

1191
01:19:53,255 --> 01:19:55,357
very, very serious,

1192
01:19:55,357 --> 01:19:58,193
then at the minimum we need to
see a delay,

1193
01:19:58,193 --> 01:20:00,829
a delay of this nomination.

1194
01:20:00,829 --> 01:20:02,297
PROTESTERS:
Hey! Hey!

1195
01:20:02,297 --> 01:20:03,398
Ho! Ho!

1196
01:20:03,398 --> 01:20:04,833
Anita Hill yes!

1197
01:20:04,833 --> 01:20:07,969
Thomas no!

1198
01:20:07,969 --> 01:20:09,171
NEWSCASTER:
Several interest groups

1199
01:20:09,171 --> 01:20:11,106
including the Women's Legal
Defense Fund

1200
01:20:11,106 --> 01:20:12,040
and the National Organization
for Women

1201
01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:14,276
are also calling
for a delay.

1202
01:20:14,276 --> 01:20:16,978
CLARENCE:
You worry about,
what can they convince people

1203
01:20:16,978 --> 01:20:18,346
that I have done.

1204
01:20:18,346 --> 01:20:22,184
You got all these PR firms,
and slick law firms,

1205
01:20:22,184 --> 01:20:27,088
I'm just sitting there,
I mean it's my wife and me.

1206
01:20:27,088 --> 01:20:29,825
We're like at home,

1207
01:20:29,825 --> 01:20:34,229
and we have a couple of prayer
partners who would come over.

1208
01:20:34,229 --> 01:20:37,399
GINNI THOMAS:
And they helped us in our home,

1209
01:20:37,399 --> 01:20:41,102
read through the Bible,
and put on the armor of God

1210
01:20:41,102 --> 01:20:45,974
because it felt like the
demons were loose.

1211
01:20:45,974 --> 01:20:48,476
NEWSCASTER:
The eroding support
for Thomas finally forced

1212
01:20:48,476 --> 01:20:52,013
Republicans to admit a Tuesday
vote would be a bad idea

1213
01:20:52,013 --> 01:20:55,016
and there was unanimous consent
to wait until next Tuesday

1214
01:20:55,016 --> 01:20:58,887
to allow a full hearing on the
allegations in the meantime.

1215
01:20:58,887 --> 01:21:00,121
But Thomas's key backer

1216
01:21:00,121 --> 01:21:01,623
delivered an impassioned
prediction

1217
01:21:01,623 --> 01:21:04,159
of what a public hearing would
turn into.

1218
01:21:04,159 --> 01:21:06,428
SENATOR DANFORTH:
Oh, it's going
to be a field day.

1219
01:21:06,428 --> 01:21:10,165
Read all about it!

1220
01:21:10,165 --> 01:21:12,300
Tune in tomorrow,

1221
01:21:12,300 --> 01:21:16,071
and every day for the next
seven days

1222
01:21:16,071 --> 01:21:19,107
to get everything and anything

1223
01:21:19,107 --> 01:21:22,611
that anybody wants
to say about Clarence Thomas!

1224
01:21:30,552 --> 01:21:33,655
[mantle being struck]

1225
01:21:33,655 --> 01:21:36,091
SENATOR BIDEN:
The hearing will come to order.

1226
01:21:38,126 --> 01:21:45,100
Mr. Chairman, Senator Thurmond,
members of the committee,

1227
01:21:45,100 --> 01:21:50,505
I welcome the opportunity
to clear my name today.

1228
01:21:50,505 --> 01:21:53,174
The first I learned
of the allegations

1229
01:21:53,174 --> 01:22:00,448
by Prof. Anita Hill
was on September 25, 1991,

1230
01:22:00,448 --> 01:22:06,621
when the FBI came to my home to
investigate her allegations.

1231
01:22:06,621 --> 01:22:15,697
I was shocked, surprised, hurt,
and enormously saddened.

1232
01:22:15,697 --> 01:22:20,368
I have not been the same since
that day.

1233
01:22:20,368 --> 01:22:24,673
Let me describe my relationship
with Anita Hill.

1234
01:22:24,673 --> 01:22:29,277
In 1981, after I went
to the Department of Education

1235
01:22:29,277 --> 01:22:33,281
as an Assistant Secretary
in the Office of Civil Rights,

1236
01:22:33,281 --> 01:22:36,418
I hired Anita Hill.

1237
01:22:36,418 --> 01:22:39,154
Anita Hill was an attorney
advisor

1238
01:22:39,154 --> 01:22:42,157
who worked directly with me.

1239
01:22:42,157 --> 01:22:46,628
Anita Hill joined me at EEOC.

1240
01:22:46,628 --> 01:22:50,532
At EEOC, our relationship
was more distant.

1241
01:22:50,532 --> 01:22:53,301
And our contacts less frequent.

1242
01:22:53,301 --> 01:22:58,406
Although I did not see Anita
Hill often after she left EEOC,

1243
01:22:58,406 --> 01:23:02,344
I did see her on 1 or 2
subsequent visits

1244
01:23:02,344 --> 01:23:06,214
to Tulsa, Oklahoma
and on one visit,

1245
01:23:06,214 --> 01:23:09,751
I believe she drove me
to the airport.

1246
01:23:09,751 --> 01:23:14,556
I find it particularly troubling
that she never raised any hint

1247
01:23:14,556 --> 01:23:17,659
that she was uncomfortable
with me.

1248
01:23:17,659 --> 01:23:20,028
She did not raise
or mention it

1249
01:23:20,028 --> 01:23:22,764
when considering moving with me
to EEOC

1250
01:23:22,764 --> 01:23:25,567
from the Department of Education

1251
01:23:25,567 --> 01:23:29,371
and she never raised it with me
when she left EEOC

1252
01:23:29,371 --> 01:23:32,774
and was moving on in her life.

1253
01:23:32,774 --> 01:23:36,411
But, I have not said or done the
things

1254
01:23:36,411 --> 01:23:40,048
that Anita Hill has alleged.

1255
01:23:40,048 --> 01:23:45,787
God has gotten me through the
days since September 25th

1256
01:23:45,787 --> 01:23:49,157
and he is my judge.

1257
01:23:49,157 --> 01:23:53,061
GINNI THOMAS:
I have to tell you
from my perch behind him.

1258
01:23:53,061 --> 01:23:57,499
I was just watching the senators
and feeling rage towards them.

1259
01:23:57,499 --> 01:24:01,236
And I especially focused
on Senator Kennedy,

1260
01:24:01,236 --> 01:24:04,372
and the things that I knew he
had done in his life,

1261
01:24:04,372 --> 01:24:07,609
and the nerve of any
of this to come out

1262
01:24:07,609 --> 01:24:10,111
to a man like I know
and I love.

1263
01:24:10,111 --> 01:24:16,117
JUDGE Thomas:
Mr. Chairman, I have never,
in all my life, felt such hurt,

1264
01:24:16,117 --> 01:24:20,488
such pain, such agony.

1265
01:24:20,488 --> 01:24:24,292
My family and I have been done
a grave

1266
01:24:24,292 --> 01:24:28,430
and irreparable injustice.

1267
01:24:28,430 --> 01:24:30,365
SENATOR BIDEN:
Thank you, Judge.

1268
01:24:30,365 --> 01:24:36,704
The hearing is in recess
for 5 minutes.

1269
01:24:36,704 --> 01:24:38,273
MICHAEL:
So, then you left,
and went back home.

1270
01:24:38,273 --> 01:24:39,707
Yeah.

1271
01:24:39,707 --> 01:24:42,143
MICHAEL:
And Anita Hill testified.

1272
01:24:42,143 --> 01:24:43,244
Did you watch that?

1273
01:24:43,244 --> 01:24:45,647
CLARENCE:
Oh, God, no.

1274
01:24:45,647 --> 01:24:47,415
SENATOR BIDEN:
Professor, do you swear to tell
the whole truth

1275
01:24:47,415 --> 01:24:49,551
and nothing but the truth,
so help you, God?

1276
01:24:49,551 --> 01:24:50,552
PROFESSOR HILL:
I do.

1277
01:24:50,552 --> 01:24:54,622
SENATOR BIDEN:
Thank you.

1278
01:24:54,622 --> 01:24:58,827
My name is Anita F. Hill,
and I am a professor of law

1279
01:24:58,827 --> 01:25:01,663
at the University of Oklahoma.

1280
01:25:01,663 --> 01:25:04,232
At the Department of Education

1281
01:25:04,232 --> 01:25:09,737
Judge Thomas asked me
to go out socially with him.

1282
01:25:09,737 --> 01:25:13,675
I declined the invitation to go
out socially with him.

1283
01:25:13,675 --> 01:25:18,446
My working relationship became
even more strained

1284
01:25:18,446 --> 01:25:25,520
when Judge Thomas began to use
work situations to discuss sex.

1285
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:28,723
His conversations were very
vivid.

1286
01:25:28,723 --> 01:25:32,160
When Senate staff asked me about
these matters,

1287
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:34,896
I felt that I had a duty to
report.

1288
01:25:34,896 --> 01:25:37,198
I could not keep silent.

1289
01:25:40,502 --> 01:25:43,304
GINNI THOMAS:
This was a kill-shot.

1290
01:25:43,304 --> 01:25:44,606
We could feel it.

1291
01:25:44,606 --> 01:25:46,875
So, they were coming
to destroy my husband,

1292
01:25:46,875 --> 01:25:51,513
not just discredit him or differ
with his point of view.

1293
01:25:51,513 --> 01:25:53,515
This was the kill-shot.

1294
01:25:55,250 --> 01:25:57,652
Can you tell me
what incidences occurred,

1295
01:25:57,652 --> 01:26:01,289
of the ones you have described
to us, occurred in his office?

1296
01:26:01,289 --> 01:26:05,927
Well, I recall specifically that
the incident about the Coke can

1297
01:26:05,927 --> 01:26:10,398
occurred in his office
at the EEOC.

1298
01:26:10,398 --> 01:26:12,600
SENATOR BIDEN:
And what was that incident
again?

1299
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:14,769
The incident with regard
to the Coke can,

1300
01:26:14,769 --> 01:26:25,947
PROFESSOR HILL:
The incident involved his going
to his desk,

1301
01:26:25,947 --> 01:26:28,883
getting up from a worktable,
going to his desk,

1302
01:26:28,883 --> 01:26:35,890
looking at this can and saying,
"Who put pubic hair on my Coke?"

1303
01:26:37,825 --> 01:26:41,896
GINNI THOMAS:
I was the one that tried
to watch what was going on

1304
01:26:41,896 --> 01:26:45,767
for as long as I could
and it looked bad.

1305
01:26:45,767 --> 01:26:48,570
It looked like it could be
credible.

1306
01:26:48,570 --> 01:26:52,307
She was painting a compelling
picture

1307
01:26:52,307 --> 01:26:54,909
and yet coming up with different
iterations

1308
01:26:54,909 --> 01:26:57,979
from what we had been told her
allegations were.

1309
01:26:57,979 --> 01:26:59,781
So it was growing.

1310
01:26:59,781 --> 01:27:03,384
Someone had worked with her,
or she had found new aspects

1311
01:27:03,384 --> 01:27:08,656
of her story that she was
putting out there.

1312
01:27:08,656 --> 01:27:13,328
SENATOR BIDEN:
Are there any other incidents
that occurred in his office,

1313
01:27:13,328 --> 01:27:15,597
with just-in his office, period?

1314
01:27:15,597 --> 01:27:19,234
There is...
I recall at least one instance

1315
01:27:19,234 --> 01:27:22,303
in his office at the EEOC

1316
01:27:22,303 --> 01:27:25,974
where he discussed
some pornographic material,

1317
01:27:25,974 --> 01:27:29,544
or he brought up the substance
or the content

1318
01:27:29,544 --> 01:27:32,380
of pornographic material.

1319
01:27:32,380 --> 01:27:34,782
SENATOR BIDEN:
Again, it is difficult,
but for the record,

1320
01:27:34,782 --> 01:27:37,719
what substance did he bring up
in this instance, at EEOC,

1321
01:27:37,719 --> 01:27:39,887
in his office?

1322
01:27:39,887 --> 01:27:43,258
PROFESSOR HILL:
This was a reference
to an individual

1323
01:27:43,258 --> 01:27:48,896
who had a very large penis

1324
01:27:48,896 --> 01:27:53,401
and he used the name that he had
referred to

1325
01:27:53,401 --> 01:27:56,271
in the pornographic material...

1326
01:27:59,507 --> 01:28:01,376
SENATOR BIDEN:
Do you recall what it was?

1327
01:28:01,376 --> 01:28:02,844
Yes, I do.

1328
01:28:02,844 --> 01:28:09,717
The name that was referred to
was Long Dong Silver.

1329
01:28:09,717 --> 01:28:16,391
GINNI THOMAS:
Honestly it was a nightmare
to hear about any of her charges

1330
01:28:16,391 --> 01:28:19,994
whether it was the pubic hair
on the Coke can

1331
01:28:19,994 --> 01:28:23,431
or Long Dong Silver.

1332
01:28:23,431 --> 01:28:25,667
It was all jarring.

1333
01:28:25,667 --> 01:28:30,571
It was all so wrong, it was
so shocking.

1334
01:28:30,571 --> 01:28:35,076
And I'm sure America was tuning
in to C-SPAN.

1335
01:28:35,076 --> 01:28:39,614
And it was horrendous because it
was so untrue.

1336
01:28:39,614 --> 01:28:41,449
CLARENCE:
Then she told me what
they were saying,

1337
01:28:41,449 --> 01:28:46,621
I know that didn't happen",
because I'd never known.

1338
01:28:46,621 --> 01:28:48,056
So yeah,
I was tormenting myself,

1339
01:28:48,056 --> 01:28:50,992
trying to dig through my endless
memories.

1340
01:28:50,992 --> 01:28:52,026
Did I do something?

1341
01:28:52,026 --> 01:28:53,828
Did I say something?

1342
01:28:53,828 --> 01:28:55,596
Was it a joke?

1343
01:28:55,596 --> 01:28:57,899
And when they said whatever it
was, they said--

1344
01:28:57,899 --> 01:28:59,534
I said "that didn't happen."

1345
01:28:59,534 --> 01:29:05,506
So, it was the first relief
I felt.

1346
01:29:05,506 --> 01:29:08,443
SENATOR SIMPSON:
Why in God's name,

1347
01:29:08,443 --> 01:29:12,847
when he left his position
of power or status

1348
01:29:12,847 --> 01:29:18,753
or authority over you,
and you left it in 1983,

1349
01:29:18,753 --> 01:29:24,492
why in God's name would you ever
speak to a man like that

1350
01:29:24,492 --> 01:29:27,128
the rest of your life?

1351
01:29:27,128 --> 01:29:30,631
That is a very
good question,

1352
01:29:30,631 --> 01:29:32,867
and I am sure that I cannot
answer that

1353
01:29:32,867 --> 01:29:35,470
to your satisfaction.

1354
01:29:35,470 --> 01:29:40,441
I have suggested that I was
afraid of retaliation,

1355
01:29:40,441 --> 01:29:44,479
I was afraid of damage
to my professional life.

1356
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:48,049
It just seems so incredible
to me

1357
01:29:48,049 --> 01:29:52,053
that you would not only have
visited with him twice

1358
01:29:52,053 --> 01:29:56,624
after that period and after he
was no longer able

1359
01:29:56,624 --> 01:29:59,093
to manipulate you
or to destroy you,

1360
01:29:59,093 --> 01:30:00,862
that you then not only visited
with him

1361
01:30:00,862 --> 01:30:03,765
but took him to the airport,

1362
01:30:03,765 --> 01:30:05,600
and then 11 times contacted him.

1363
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:09,570
That part of it
is the most contradictory

1364
01:30:09,570 --> 01:30:13,841
and puzzling thing for me.

1365
01:30:13,841 --> 01:30:16,144
SENATOR BIDEN:
Adjourned until 9 o'clock.

1366
01:30:21,682 --> 01:30:25,953
CLARENCE:
Senator Danforth called me
at home, after that testimony

1367
01:30:25,953 --> 01:30:28,790
and they wanted me to testify
that night,

1368
01:30:28,790 --> 01:30:34,095
to not let the testimony,
her testimony be the new-

1369
01:30:34,095 --> 01:30:36,464
fill up the news cycle.

1370
01:30:36,464 --> 01:30:38,933
NEWSCASTER:
This afternoon Mr. Bush left
for Camp David,

1371
01:30:38,933 --> 01:30:41,135
but you would have to describe
the mood here as resigned,

1372
01:30:41,135 --> 01:30:43,438
I think, and somber,
not at all sure

1373
01:30:43,438 --> 01:30:46,841
that Clarence Thomas
is going to survive this.

1374
01:30:46,841 --> 01:30:51,979
CLARENCE:
So, I reluctantly agreed to come
back at 8 o'clock.

1375
01:30:51,979 --> 01:30:54,649
GINNI THOMAS:
He may have thought it was
necessary to go back

1376
01:30:54,649 --> 01:30:56,651
in front of the Senate,

1377
01:30:56,651 --> 01:30:58,853
but honestly from his wife's
point of view

1378
01:30:58,853 --> 01:31:04,091
watching the man who is
my loved, beloved husband,

1379
01:31:04,091 --> 01:31:08,029
I didn't know he had it within
him to keep going.

1380
01:31:08,029 --> 01:31:12,867
So, I get to Jack, Senator
Danforth's office

1381
01:31:12,867 --> 01:31:17,672
and we sit, and we begin
to discuss that,

1382
01:31:17,672 --> 01:31:19,740
you know what's ahead.

1383
01:31:21,042 --> 01:31:22,944
So, I was exhausted,

1384
01:31:22,944 --> 01:31:26,981
and I asked him to get rid
of all the people.

1385
01:31:26,981 --> 01:31:31,886
He turned off the lights

1386
01:31:31,886 --> 01:31:34,689
and I just laid down
on the couch,

1387
01:31:34,689 --> 01:31:37,091
and just closed my eyes.

1388
01:31:41,863 --> 01:31:44,732
Surrounded by the darkness
of early evening

1389
01:31:44,732 --> 01:31:48,636
drifting in the liminal space
between sleep and waking.

1390
01:31:51,572 --> 01:31:54,876
I must have been thinking
of "To Kill a Mockingbird"

1391
01:31:57,979 --> 01:32:01,215
in which Atticus Finch,
a small-town southern lawyer,

1392
01:32:01,215 --> 01:32:03,618
defends Tom Robinson

1393
01:32:03,618 --> 01:32:07,655
a black man on trial
for the rape of a white woman.

1394
01:32:13,261 --> 01:32:17,265
Gentlemen of the jury,
have you reached a verdict?

1395
01:32:17,265 --> 01:32:21,002
CLARENCE:
I had lived my whole life
knowing that Tom's fate

1396
01:32:21,002 --> 01:32:23,671
might be mine.

1397
01:32:23,671 --> 01:32:25,306
Strip away the fancy talk

1398
01:32:25,306 --> 01:32:29,710
and you were left with the same
old story.

1399
01:32:29,710 --> 01:32:32,146
You can't trust black
men around women.

1400
01:32:33,981 --> 01:32:37,018
JURY:
We find the defendant
guilty as charged.

1401
01:32:40,755 --> 01:32:44,692
CLARENCE:
This one may be a big city judge
with a law degree from Yale

1402
01:32:44,692 --> 01:32:47,862
but when you get right down
to it,

1403
01:32:47,862 --> 01:32:50,164
he's just like the rest
of them.

1404
01:32:52,199 --> 01:32:56,837
One of the things
that came to mind

1405
01:32:56,837 --> 01:32:58,306
after I'd rested a little bit,

1406
01:32:58,306 --> 01:33:01,876
I said "Jack, this is
a high-tech lynching"

1407
01:33:01,876 --> 01:33:05,146
and he said "If that's what you
think, say it."

1408
01:33:05,146 --> 01:33:08,182
And so, I wrote that
on a legal pad,

1409
01:33:08,182 --> 01:33:12,320
and he just exhorted me to go
in the name of the Holy Ghost.

1410
01:33:12,320 --> 01:33:17,858
[crowd applauding]

1411
01:33:17,858 --> 01:33:21,862
GINNI THOMAS:
There were conservative groups
who were marshalling activists

1412
01:33:21,862 --> 01:33:23,864
from around the country
to come in

1413
01:33:23,864 --> 01:33:25,633
and line the hallways.

1414
01:33:25,633 --> 01:33:28,703
[crowd shouting and cheering]

1415
01:33:31,639 --> 01:33:34,709
And when we came out
of Senator Danforth's office,

1416
01:33:34,709 --> 01:33:36,711
and we were going down the
hallway,

1417
01:33:36,711 --> 01:33:40,247
and all these people were
clapping, and very excited.

1418
01:33:40,247 --> 01:33:43,317
[crowd cheering]

1419
01:33:49,023 --> 01:33:51,692
And he said to me
"who are those people?"

1420
01:33:51,692 --> 01:33:54,328
And I said
"I think they're angels."

1421
01:33:54,328 --> 01:33:57,398
[mantle struck]

1422
01:34:01,168 --> 01:34:03,971
SENATOR BIDEN:
The committee will please
come to order.

1423
01:34:05,339 --> 01:34:10,411
JUDGE THOMAS:
Senator, I would like to start
by saying unequivocally,

1424
01:34:10,411 --> 01:34:16,083
uncategorically that I deny each
and every single allegation

1425
01:34:16,083 --> 01:34:17,652
against me today

1426
01:34:17,652 --> 01:34:20,821
that suggested in any way

1427
01:34:20,821 --> 01:34:26,027
that I had conversations
of a sexual nature

1428
01:34:26,027 --> 01:34:30,164
or about pornographic material
with Anita Hill.

1429
01:34:30,164 --> 01:34:33,801
That I ever attempted to date
her.

1430
01:34:33,801 --> 01:34:39,940
That I ever had any personal
sexual interest in her,

1431
01:34:39,940 --> 01:34:44,278
or that I
in any way ever harassed her.

1432
01:34:44,278 --> 01:34:45,446
This is a circus.

1433
01:34:45,446 --> 01:34:47,782
It is a national disgrace.

1434
01:34:49,083 --> 01:34:53,154
And from my standpoint,
as a black American,

1435
01:34:53,154 --> 01:34:57,024
as far as I am concerned,
it is a high-tech lynching

1436
01:34:57,024 --> 01:35:02,463
for uppity-blacks who in any way
deign to think for themselves,

1437
01:35:02,463 --> 01:35:06,200
to do for themselves,
to have different ideas,

1438
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:08,202
and it is a message that,

1439
01:35:08,202 --> 01:35:11,772
unless you kowtow to an old
order,

1440
01:35:11,772 --> 01:35:14,975
this is what will happen to you.

1441
01:35:14,975 --> 01:35:21,749
You will be lynched, destroyed,
caricatured

1442
01:35:21,749 --> 01:35:25,252
by a committee of the U.S.
Senate,

1443
01:35:25,252 --> 01:35:29,323
rather than hung
from a tree.

1444
01:35:36,263 --> 01:35:40,201
GINNI THOMAS:
When Clarence gave
the high-tech lynching speech,

1445
01:35:40,201 --> 01:35:46,741
I knew how little of my husband
was sitting in front of me.

1446
01:35:46,741 --> 01:35:49,910
And I knew that God was with him

1447
01:35:49,910 --> 01:35:52,413
because I knew he wasn't doing
that on his own,

1448
01:35:52,413 --> 01:35:56,150
because I knew how weak he was
at that point.

1449
01:35:59,820 --> 01:36:05,426
And, Judge, what is your
response

1450
01:36:05,426 --> 01:36:08,796
to those specific charges again?

1451
01:36:08,796 --> 01:36:12,366
Senator, my response is that
I categorically,

1452
01:36:12,366 --> 01:36:14,001
unequivocally deny them.

1453
01:36:14,001 --> 01:36:14,935
SENATOR PATRICK:
Thank you.

1454
01:36:14,935 --> 01:36:17,037
They did not occur.

1455
01:36:17,037 --> 01:36:22,443
Senator,
I wasn't harmed by the Klan,

1456
01:36:22,443 --> 01:36:25,379
I wasn't harmed by the Knights
of Camelia,

1457
01:36:25,379 --> 01:36:28,415
I wasn't harmed by the Aryan
race,

1458
01:36:28,415 --> 01:36:30,818
I wasn't harmed by a racist
group,

1459
01:36:30,818 --> 01:36:34,855
I was harmed by this process,

1460
01:36:34,855 --> 01:36:40,027
this process which accommodated
these attacks on me.

1461
01:36:40,027 --> 01:36:45,032
I would have
preferred an assassin's bullet

1462
01:36:45,032 --> 01:36:49,336
to this kind of living hell

1463
01:36:49,336 --> 01:36:53,340
that they have put me
and my family through.

1464
01:36:58,879 --> 01:37:01,982
SENATOR GRASSLEY:
You haven't
mentioned your grandfather.

1465
01:37:01,982 --> 01:37:04,885
I would like to have you tell me
what you think advice,

1466
01:37:04,885 --> 01:37:12,326
he would give to you if he were
advising you today.

1467
01:37:12,326 --> 01:37:16,831
JUDGE THOMAS:
When I was getting
hammered in the public

1468
01:37:16,831 --> 01:37:21,035
and getting criticized,
and I complained to him,

1469
01:37:21,035 --> 01:37:24,905
he told me to stand up
for what I believe in.

1470
01:37:24,905 --> 01:37:27,241
That is what he would tell me
today.

1471
01:37:27,241 --> 01:37:29,944
Not to quit,
not to turn tail,

1472
01:37:29,944 --> 01:37:32,279
not to cry "uncle,"

1473
01:37:32,279 --> 01:37:35,049
and not to give up until
I am dead.

1474
01:37:35,049 --> 01:37:37,251
He had another statement.

1475
01:37:37,251 --> 01:37:41,322
"Give out
but don't give up."

1476
01:37:41,322 --> 01:37:44,058
That is what he would say to me.

1477
01:37:49,096 --> 01:37:52,499
SENATOR HATCH:
I would like you
to describe now,

1478
01:37:52,499 --> 01:37:55,436
for this gathering,

1479
01:37:55,436 --> 01:38:04,211
what it is like to be accused
of sexual harassment.

1480
01:38:04,211 --> 01:38:06,614
And let me add the word,
unjustly accused

1481
01:38:06,614 --> 01:38:12,019
of sexual harassment.

1482
01:38:12,019 --> 01:38:16,657
The day I received
a phone call on Saturday night,

1483
01:38:16,657 --> 01:38:21,262
last Saturday night, about 7:30

1484
01:38:21,262 --> 01:38:28,269
and told that this was going to
be in the press, I had-I died.

1485
01:38:28,269 --> 01:38:31,405
The person you knew,
whether you voted for me

1486
01:38:31,405 --> 01:38:34,475
or against me...

1487
01:38:34,475 --> 01:38:37,278
died.

1488
01:38:52,660 --> 01:38:56,397
In my view,
that is an injustice.

1489
01:39:01,669 --> 01:39:04,505
SENATOR HATCH:
Judge, you are here though.

1490
01:39:04,505 --> 01:39:06,106
Some people have been spreading
the rumor

1491
01:39:06,106 --> 01:39:09,043
that perhaps you are
going to withdraw.

1492
01:39:12,313 --> 01:39:15,049
What's Clarence Thomas going to
do?

1493
01:39:15,049 --> 01:39:18,652
JUDGE THOMAS:
I would rather die
than withdraw.

1494
01:39:18,652 --> 01:39:21,355
If they are going to kill me,
they're going to kill me.

1495
01:39:29,229 --> 01:39:31,732
So, you would still like
to serve on the Supreme Court?

1496
01:39:31,732 --> 01:39:36,270
I would rather die
than withdraw from the process.

1497
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:44,478
Not for the purpose of serving
on the Supreme Court

1498
01:39:44,478 --> 01:39:49,683
but for the purpose of not being
driven out of this process.

1499
01:39:49,683 --> 01:39:51,618
I will not be scared.

1500
01:39:51,618 --> 01:39:53,487
I don't like bullies.

1501
01:39:53,487 --> 01:39:56,323
I have never run from bullies.

1502
01:39:56,323 --> 01:39:59,293
I never cry uncle and I am not
going to cry uncle today

1503
01:39:59,293 --> 01:40:02,663
whether I want to be
on the Supreme Court or not.

1504
01:40:06,166 --> 01:40:09,436
We are recessed
for 15 minutes.

1505
01:40:12,539 --> 01:40:14,541
CROWD:
We support Thomas!

1506
01:40:14,541 --> 01:40:23,550
We support Thomas!

1507
01:40:23,550 --> 01:40:26,353
CLARENCE:
The poll numbers had
changed dramatically,

1508
01:40:26,353 --> 01:40:28,155
after I testified.

1509
01:40:28,155 --> 01:40:29,590
NEWSCASTER:
More than twice as many
respondents

1510
01:40:29,590 --> 01:40:31,792
to a CBS News/New York Times
poll say

1511
01:40:31,792 --> 01:40:33,027
they would likely believe
Judge Thomas

1512
01:40:33,027 --> 01:40:35,763
if they were forced to choose.

1513
01:40:35,763 --> 01:40:40,367
It's like two thirds of the
country was normally on my side.

1514
01:40:40,367 --> 01:40:43,037
The question is on the
confirmation of the nomination

1515
01:40:43,037 --> 01:40:46,540
of Clarence Thomas of Georgia
to be an Associate Justice

1516
01:40:46,540 --> 01:40:49,043
of the United States
Supreme Court.

1517
01:40:49,043 --> 01:40:50,611
SPEAKER:
Mr. Deconcini.

1518
01:40:50,611 --> 01:40:51,678
DECONCINI:
Aye.

1519
01:40:51,678 --> 01:40:54,081
SPEAKER:
Mr. Kerry of Massachusetts.

1520
01:40:54,081 --> 01:40:55,582
KERRY:
No.

1521
01:40:55,582 --> 01:40:56,750
SPEAKER:
Mr. McCain

1522
01:40:56,750 --> 01:40:59,553
McCAIN:
Aye.

1523
01:40:59,553 --> 01:41:02,423
MICHAEL:
Where were you during the actual
Senate vote?

1524
01:41:02,423 --> 01:41:05,392
CLARENCE:
During the vote, I was
in the tub, and finally,

1525
01:41:05,392 --> 01:41:13,700
So I got in the bath,
and just sort of soaked.

1526
01:41:13,700 --> 01:41:19,506
QUAYLE:
On this vote the yeas are 52
and the nays are 48.

1527
01:41:19,506 --> 01:41:22,242
The nomination
of Clarence Thomas of Georgia

1528
01:41:22,242 --> 01:41:25,279
to be associate justice of the
United States Supreme Court

1529
01:41:25,279 --> 01:41:27,114
is hereby confirmed.

1530
01:41:27,114 --> 01:41:29,183
GINNI THOMAS:
So, when the vote happened,

1531
01:41:29,183 --> 01:41:33,687
someone who worked with me
called and told me that he won.

1532
01:41:33,687 --> 01:41:38,092
And I went and told Clarence,
and he was in a bath-tub.

1533
01:41:38,092 --> 01:41:40,694
And you know, my reaction is,

1534
01:41:40,694 --> 01:41:44,798
still pretty much the way it is
now "whoop-dee-damn-doo."

1535
01:41:44,798 --> 01:41:46,767
And I wasn't really all that
interested in it.

1536
01:41:46,767 --> 01:41:49,536
I just think what they did was
wrong.

1537
01:41:49,536 --> 01:41:50,871
So that you get confirmed,
but the bottom line

1538
01:41:50,871 --> 01:41:52,840
doesn't change the fact
that what you did was wrong.

1539
01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:55,709
Repeat after me:

1540
01:41:55,709 --> 01:41:58,712
I, Clarence Thomas...

1541
01:41:58,712 --> 01:42:01,815
Do solemnly swear...

1542
01:42:01,815 --> 01:42:03,450
JUSTICE WHITE:
That I will support
and defend...

1543
01:42:03,450 --> 01:42:05,285
That I will support
and defend...

1544
01:42:05,285 --> 01:42:10,190
The Constitution
of the United States.

1545
01:42:12,359 --> 01:42:17,464
Without warning memories
of home, my grandparents

1546
01:42:17,464 --> 01:42:19,399
and the accumulated toil

1547
01:42:19,399 --> 01:42:22,736
of the last 4 decades swirled
through my mind.

1548
01:42:22,736 --> 01:42:32,813
[♪]

1549
01:42:42,756 --> 01:42:46,727
[♪]

1550
01:42:46,727 --> 01:42:50,364
those same groups that opposed
you during confirmation,

1551
01:42:50,364 --> 01:42:52,533
continued their attack.

1552
01:42:52,533 --> 01:42:53,400
Yeah.

1553
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:57,671
Nothing they do
surprises me anymore.

1554
01:42:57,671 --> 01:43:02,342
It's just, it's unpleasant,
but that's life.

1555
01:43:02,342 --> 01:43:12,419
[♪]

1556
01:43:22,362 --> 01:43:29,836
[♪]

1557
01:43:29,836 --> 01:43:32,406
The idea was to get
rid of me,

1558
01:43:32,406 --> 01:43:36,510
and then it was after I was
there, it was to undermine me,

1559
01:43:36,510 --> 01:43:39,379
my credibility,
my effectiveness.

1560
01:43:39,379 --> 01:43:40,714
You want another bran muffin?

1561
01:43:40,714 --> 01:43:41,915
I could use some more
coffee, Clarence.

1562
01:43:41,915 --> 01:43:43,784
Sure thing!

1563
01:43:43,784 --> 01:43:50,724
of Springfield police department
vs. Hector Rodriguez Gonzalez.

1564
01:43:50,724 --> 01:43:51,992
Justice Thomas?

1565
01:43:51,992 --> 01:43:56,496
Uhh, well how were the rest
of you guys going to vote?

1566
01:43:56,496 --> 01:43:58,732
I'm voting
for the police department.

1567
01:43:58,732 --> 01:44:03,570
I say whatever the
rest of you guys say.

1568
01:44:03,570 --> 01:44:05,572
Justice Thomas...

1569
01:44:08,242 --> 01:44:10,777
CLARENCE:
Well, it's stereotypes draped
in sanctimony

1570
01:44:10,777 --> 01:44:13,380
and self-congratulation.

1571
01:44:21,788 --> 01:44:24,258
It's a different sets
of rules for different people.

1572
01:44:24,258 --> 01:44:29,329
If you criticize a-- a black
person who's more liberal,

1573
01:44:29,329 --> 01:44:30,464
you are racist.

1574
01:44:30,464 --> 01:44:33,367
Whereas if you can do whatever
to me,

1575
01:44:33,367 --> 01:44:37,437
or to now, Ben Carson,

1576
01:44:37,437 --> 01:44:39,740
ah, and that's fine
because you're not really black,

1577
01:44:39,740 --> 01:44:42,776
because you're not doing what we
expect black people to do.

1578
01:44:42,776 --> 01:44:52,853
[♪]

1579
01:44:56,423 --> 01:44:59,593
It's a tactic and when people
see it being successful,

1580
01:44:59,593 --> 01:45:01,561
they don't realize they're going
to be the next ones

1581
01:45:01,561 --> 01:45:04,331
in the Tower of London.

1582
01:45:04,331 --> 01:45:05,866
It is just a matter of time.

1583
01:45:05,866 --> 01:45:10,337
You allow this to be a precedent
in your society,

1584
01:45:10,337 --> 01:45:11,872
and you, people might say, "Oh,
it's wonderful.

1585
01:45:11,872 --> 01:45:14,374
This particular guy is getting
tarred and feathered."

1586
01:45:14,374 --> 01:45:17,077
Well, there's a lot of tar,
and there's a lot of feather,

1587
01:45:17,077 --> 01:45:19,579
and eventually you will be
there.

1588
01:45:21,515 --> 01:45:23,517
NEWSCASTER:
A watershed moment
at the Supreme Court-

1589
01:45:23,517 --> 01:45:26,353
Justice Clarence Thomas
asked a question

1590
01:45:26,353 --> 01:45:28,822
this is the first time Thomas
has asked a question

1591
01:45:28,822 --> 01:45:31,525
in ten years.

1592
01:45:31,525 --> 01:45:33,560
He has said he relies
on written briefs.

1593
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:35,595
The case involves the Federal
Law...

1594
01:45:35,595 --> 01:45:43,036
[♪]

1595
01:45:43,036 --> 01:45:46,506
MICHAEL:
Some people say you don't ask
enough questions

1596
01:45:46,506 --> 01:45:48,508
during oral argument.

1597
01:45:48,508 --> 01:45:50,844
We are judges,
not advocates

1598
01:45:50,844 --> 01:45:52,646
and I think we should act
accordingly.

1599
01:45:52,646 --> 01:45:54,715
Yeah, we might have opinions,

1600
01:45:54,715 --> 01:45:57,818
but it's not my job to argue
with lawyers;

1601
01:45:57,818 --> 01:45:59,853
it's their job to make their
cases,

1602
01:45:59,853 --> 01:46:03,457
and there's an advocate
on each side.

1603
01:46:03,457 --> 01:46:05,792
The referee in the game
should not be a participant

1604
01:46:05,792 --> 01:46:08,595
in the game.

1605
01:46:08,595 --> 01:46:11,765
The way things are changed
is when the opinion,

1606
01:46:11,765 --> 01:46:13,066
the senior member
in the majority

1607
01:46:13,066 --> 01:46:15,669
assigns who writes the opinion,

1608
01:46:15,669 --> 01:46:20,841
when that opinion is, is
in draft form, it circulates.

1609
01:46:20,841 --> 01:46:22,843
And that's where the
negotiations

1610
01:46:22,843 --> 01:46:24,845
and the real work takes place.

1611
01:46:24,845 --> 01:46:31,084
[♪]

1612
01:46:34,921 --> 01:46:39,559
One of the joys I get is, I get
four new clerks every year.

1613
01:46:39,559 --> 01:46:41,595
I hire four new clerks every
year.

1614
01:46:41,595 --> 01:46:45,766
Everybody who's chosen here,
was chosen for a reason,

1615
01:46:45,766 --> 01:46:48,735
I'm very careful.

1616
01:46:48,735 --> 01:46:51,605
Everybody here is just,
just what a great group.

1617
01:46:51,605 --> 01:46:56,510
GINNI THOMAS:
When Clarence started picking
non-Ivy League clerks,

1618
01:46:56,510 --> 01:47:00,714
some people would call them
"third tier trash"

1619
01:47:00,714 --> 01:47:04,117
and those clerks who were
clerking for Clarence,

1620
01:47:04,117 --> 01:47:07,521
took it as a badge of honor.

1621
01:47:07,521 --> 01:47:08,722
CLARENCE:
So why did you go to USC?

1622
01:47:08,722 --> 01:47:11,191
[laughing]

1623
01:47:11,191 --> 01:47:13,960
MADELINE LANSKY:
Your favorite question.

1624
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:18,632
CHRISTOPHER MILLS:
For law school I applied sort
of all over the place

1625
01:47:18,632 --> 01:47:22,068
and just went to the,

1626
01:47:22,068 --> 01:47:26,773
went to the best place I could
get in.

1627
01:47:26,773 --> 01:47:29,042
CLARENCE:
And that was Harvard?

1628
01:47:29,042 --> 01:47:31,077
CHRISTOPHER MILLS:
I guess.

1629
01:47:31,077 --> 01:47:32,946
That's what people told me.

1630
01:47:32,946 --> 01:47:34,748
Couldn't have done any
better, huh?

1631
01:47:34,748 --> 01:47:37,717
[laughter]

1632
01:47:41,087 --> 01:47:44,191
We had some suggestions for you,
but you didn't call us.

1633
01:47:44,191 --> 01:47:46,493
[laughing]

1634
01:47:50,964 --> 01:47:52,466
PROTESTORS:
What do we want?

1635
01:47:52,466 --> 01:47:53,066
Affirmative action!

1636
01:47:53,066 --> 01:47:54,034
When do we want it?

1637
01:47:54,034 --> 01:47:54,935
Now!

1638
01:47:54,935 --> 01:47:55,802
What do we want?

1639
01:47:55,802 --> 01:47:56,870
Affirmative action!

1640
01:47:56,870 --> 01:47:57,871
When do we want it?

1641
01:47:57,871 --> 01:48:00,941
NEWSCASTER:
What is expected to be
a landmark case

1642
01:48:00,941 --> 01:48:04,144
before the Supreme Court
to be argued this April.

1643
01:48:04,144 --> 01:48:06,880
NEWSCASTER #2:
The plaintiffs in this case
are three white applicants

1644
01:48:06,880 --> 01:48:08,982
to the University
of Michigan who were rejected,

1645
01:48:08,982 --> 01:48:11,818
they say, because of their race.

1646
01:48:11,818 --> 01:48:21,695
[♪]

1647
01:48:21,695 --> 01:48:27,267
CLARENCE:
"Racial discrimination is not a
permissible solution...

1648
01:48:27,267 --> 01:48:30,737
that can only weaken
the principle of equality

1649
01:48:30,737 --> 01:48:34,708
embodied in the Declaration
of Independence

1650
01:48:34,708 --> 01:48:37,177
and the Equal Protection
Clause."

1651
01:48:40,280 --> 01:48:43,216
Show me in the Constitution
where you get a right

1652
01:48:43,216 --> 01:48:46,119
to separate citizens
based on race.

1653
01:48:46,119 --> 01:48:48,822
I think what we've
become comfortable with is

1654
01:48:48,822 --> 01:48:51,691
thinking that there is some good
discrimination

1655
01:48:51,691 --> 01:48:54,060
and some bad discrimination.

1656
01:48:54,060 --> 01:49:00,233
And if you look in the briefs
in the race cases, uh,

1657
01:49:00,233 --> 01:49:02,802
the segregationists, the people
who thought

1658
01:49:02,802 --> 01:49:04,638
you should have a separate
system, they,

1659
01:49:04,638 --> 01:49:08,975
they said that they thought it
was good for both races.

1660
01:49:08,975 --> 01:49:11,177
So they thought it was good
discrimination.

1661
01:49:11,177 --> 01:49:21,254
[♪]

1662
01:49:35,268 --> 01:49:39,739
You have to really be
careful not to supplant

1663
01:49:39,739 --> 01:49:45,779
what is there, what was, uh,
rightfully done,

1664
01:49:45,779 --> 01:49:50,850
simply because you don't think
it's a great rule.

1665
01:49:50,850 --> 01:49:53,186
A bad policy can be
constitutional.

1666
01:49:53,186 --> 01:49:56,923
A good policy can be
unconstitutional.

1667
01:49:56,923 --> 01:50:01,061
So that's why we start
with the text.

1668
01:50:01,061 --> 01:50:07,934
GINNI THOMAS:
Justice Scalia called Clarence
a "blood thirsty originalist."

1669
01:50:07,934 --> 01:50:10,804
He took that as a compliment.

1670
01:50:15,609 --> 01:50:17,243
CLARENCE:
The framers understood
natural law,

1671
01:50:17,243 --> 01:50:19,613
and natural rights a certain
way,

1672
01:50:19,613 --> 01:50:22,782
and it is underpinning
of our Declaration,

1673
01:50:22,782 --> 01:50:26,886
which then becomes the
foundation for the Constitution.

1674
01:50:26,886 --> 01:50:29,789
They start with the rights
of the individual.

1675
01:50:29,789 --> 01:50:31,658
And where do those rights
come from?

1676
01:50:31,658 --> 01:50:34,361
They come from God,
they're transcendent.

1677
01:50:39,766 --> 01:50:41,334
And you give up some
of those rights

1678
01:50:41,334 --> 01:50:43,003
in order to be governed.

1679
01:50:43,003 --> 01:50:45,305
They're inalienable rights.

1680
01:50:45,305 --> 01:50:49,943
And now you give up only
so many as necessary

1681
01:50:49,943 --> 01:50:54,347
to be governed by your consent.

1682
01:50:54,347 --> 01:51:00,220
And hence limited government,
enumerated powers,

1683
01:51:00,220 --> 01:51:05,091
separation of powers,
federalism, judicial review.

1684
01:51:05,091 --> 01:51:08,061
It all makes sense.

1685
01:51:15,402 --> 01:51:24,277
[♪]

1686
01:51:24,277 --> 01:51:28,982
GINNI THOMAS:
One of Clarence's biggest loves
is when he can get away

1687
01:51:28,982 --> 01:51:33,987
from Washington DC and be
on the road in his motor home.

1688
01:51:33,987 --> 01:51:40,226
[♪]

1689
01:51:40,226 --> 01:51:42,829
CLARENCE:
You know, I don't have any
problem with going to Europe,

1690
01:51:42,829 --> 01:51:45,965
but I prefer the United States.

1691
01:51:45,965 --> 01:51:49,402
And I prefer seeing the regular
parts of the United States.

1692
01:51:49,402 --> 01:51:53,173
I prefer going across the rural
areas.

1693
01:51:53,173 --> 01:51:57,410
I prefer the RV parks,
and I prefer the Walmart parking

1694
01:51:57,410 --> 01:52:01,915
lots to the beaches
and things like that.

1695
01:52:01,915 --> 01:52:04,718
There's something,
normal to me about it.

1696
01:52:04,718 --> 01:52:08,321
I come from regular stock,
and I prefer that.

1697
01:52:08,321 --> 01:52:12,392
I prefer being around that.

1698
01:52:12,392 --> 01:52:15,895
GINNI THOMAS:
I think he has a natural
capacity to hear more

1699
01:52:15,895 --> 01:52:18,965
than most of us do
from regular people.

1700
01:52:21,134 --> 01:52:25,105
Clarence's grandfather is the
perfect example

1701
01:52:25,105 --> 01:52:26,940
of an anchor in his life

1702
01:52:26,940 --> 01:52:30,877
that was not seen by the elites
as having value

1703
01:52:30,877 --> 01:52:33,213
because he had such poor
education.

1704
01:52:33,213 --> 01:52:34,948
He was illiterate.

1705
01:52:34,948 --> 01:52:41,321
But for Clarence, the wisdom
from that man

1706
01:52:41,321 --> 01:52:43,456
and the experience,
and the way he lived his life,

1707
01:52:43,456 --> 01:52:47,127
did make him the greatest man
in his life.

1708
01:52:48,928 --> 01:52:53,299
GINNI THOMAS:
I think he hopes that when
he gets to heaven,

1709
01:52:53,299 --> 01:52:57,837
that his grandfather would say,
"Well done."

1710
01:53:00,907 --> 01:53:03,843
CLARENCE:
I keep a bust of my grandfather
that my wife had made,

1711
01:53:03,843 --> 01:53:06,780
over me and I've done since
I've been at the court.

1712
01:53:10,316 --> 01:53:13,953
He was uncorrupted by
modern thinking.

1713
01:53:13,953 --> 01:53:20,260
When you can't read and write,
you take in life as it is.

1714
01:53:22,829 --> 01:53:24,397
You did things a certain way.

1715
01:53:24,397 --> 01:53:28,301
You planted corn a certain way,
you fed the hogs a certain way,

1716
01:53:28,301 --> 01:53:30,136
you pulled the fence line a
certain way,

1717
01:53:30,136 --> 01:53:32,005
you plowed the field a certain
way,

1718
01:53:32,005 --> 01:53:34,340
and it always had to be the
right way.

1719
01:53:37,210 --> 01:53:40,113
I want to be able to say to him
I lived up to my oath

1720
01:53:40,113 --> 01:53:42,315
and did my best.

1721
01:53:42,315 --> 01:53:48,555
[♪]

1722
01:53:48,555 --> 01:53:51,491
To do it the way you did the
field, properly,

1723
01:53:51,491 --> 01:53:53,393
to do the law the right way,

1724
01:53:53,393 --> 01:53:56,162
to conduct yourself
the right way.

1725
01:54:00,200 --> 01:54:03,970
I want to be able to say that
it's a job well done.

1726
01:54:03,970 --> 01:54:14,047
[♪]

1727
01:54:14,047 --> 01:54:17,050
And to be a part
of this, this country,

1728
01:54:17,050 --> 01:54:18,985
and this Constitution,

1729
01:54:18,985 --> 01:54:24,924
there is a sense of fulfillment
that you get to write,

1730
01:54:24,924 --> 01:54:31,264
and to defend the very thing
that protects our liberties.

1731
01:54:31,264 --> 01:54:34,267
[vocalizing]

1732
01:54:34,267 --> 01:54:44,344
[♪]

1733
01:54:54,287 --> 01:55:04,364
[♪]

1734
01:55:14,307 --> 01:55:24,384
[♪]

1735
01:55:34,327 --> 01:55:44,404
[♪]