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Downloaded from
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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Hi. May I pet the horse?
It's alright?

4
00:00:55,108 --> 00:00:57,318
Sure, go ahead.

5
00:00:57,412 --> 00:01:00,545
They're the best thing
about this rally.

6
00:01:02,123 --> 00:01:04,442
How much does
one of these weigh?

7
00:01:04,467 --> 00:01:07,427
How much...800 kilograms or so?

8
00:01:07,514 --> 00:01:08,514
That much.

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The ones over there
are pretty heavy too.

10
00:01:13,220 --> 00:01:16,650
- The other...horses?
- Well, yeah.

11
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- I didn't get that
policewoman tried to be funny,

12
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comparing the horse
to the pumped-up Nazis,

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shouting behind me.

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00:01:35,822 --> 00:01:38,283
Throw out the scum!

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If you had any guts, you'd
tell your employer to fuck off!

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"Our green banner flies..."

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Fucking hell...

18
00:01:59,715 --> 00:02:03,184
Traitors of the blood!

19
00:02:05,212 --> 00:02:08,712
- I just dialled
down the madness.

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00:02:12,728 --> 00:02:16,628
It seems stupid to ship
in half the country's police

21
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to look after Nazis,

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so they can freely
express their shit,

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without interruptions.

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Everyone's got to have freedom
of speech in a democracy.

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But have you never felt

26
00:02:34,681 --> 00:02:37,586
that this might need
some adjustment?

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00:02:41,168 --> 00:02:43,508
Is it time to call in the state

28
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and simply censor
the most polarising,

29
00:02:47,665 --> 00:02:49,572
deranged expressions?

30
00:02:50,673 --> 00:02:53,318
- To be white
is to be a striver,

31
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a crusader, and
explorer and a conqueror.

32
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We don't exploit other groups.

33
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They need us and not
the other way around.

34
00:03:03,901 --> 00:03:06,695
- He said, "I send the
messenger Muhammad,

35
00:03:06,695 --> 00:03:08,535
"with the guidance
and the deed of truth

36
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"for it to be dominant upon
the whole of the world."

37
00:03:10,868 --> 00:03:13,028
No matter how much they hate it,

38
00:03:13,028 --> 00:03:17,628
our objective, the objective
of...

39
00:03:17,628 --> 00:03:20,228
is to dominate the
whole world by the Sharia.

40
00:03:20,228 --> 00:03:23,668
- When the preaching of
God's word is taking place,

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first of all, it's
not for a woman

42
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to be doing the preaching.

43
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And second of all, it's not
for women to be speaking.

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Even the Bible is
really clear on this,

45
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even if they were
to have a question,

46
00:03:34,978 --> 00:03:38,021
they are not to ask that
question in the church.

47
00:03:47,188 --> 00:03:50,098
- What if censorship
has become necessary?

48
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Just to keep our
societies decent.

49
00:03:57,328 --> 00:04:00,448
What if there's a form
of state censorship

50
00:04:00,448 --> 00:04:01,698
that could actually work?

51
00:04:03,648 --> 00:04:05,321
That could be good?

52
00:04:07,638 --> 00:04:09,288
So basically, we're gonna travel

53
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to all those different countries

54
00:04:11,498 --> 00:04:16,498
and figure out the rationale
behind why they're censor.

55
00:04:16,818 --> 00:04:17,708
And what do you think about it?

56
00:04:17,708 --> 00:04:19,768
- Well, I wish you luck.

57
00:04:19,768 --> 00:04:23,248
Figuring out rationales
is not an easy task.

58
00:04:23,248 --> 00:04:25,998
I would say it's
anthropological, basically,

59
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or ethnographic.

60
00:04:27,648 --> 00:04:31,698
The point is to understand
censorship, not to condemn it.

61
00:04:31,698 --> 00:04:32,638
- Yeah.

62
00:04:32,638 --> 00:04:36,788
- People tend to take a
simplified idea of censorship

63
00:04:36,788 --> 00:04:39,898
as a struggle of
good against evil,

64
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of liberty against oppression.

65
00:04:42,288 --> 00:04:46,639
It's a sort of Manichaean
view that gets it wrong.

66
00:04:46,639 --> 00:04:48,758
I mean, having
studied censorship

67
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under various
authoritarian regimes,

68
00:04:52,548 --> 00:04:57,548
I must say, I am
convinced that censorship

69
00:04:58,008 --> 00:05:01,368
can be positive,
it's complicated,

70
00:05:01,368 --> 00:05:04,158
so I would recommend,

71
00:05:04,158 --> 00:05:07,488
as you go around
interviewing people responsible

72
00:05:07,488 --> 00:05:10,728
for filtering communication

73
00:05:10,728 --> 00:05:12,838
that you try to...

74
00:05:14,048 --> 00:05:17,408
Not exactly identify with them,

75
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but to listen to them,
to understand them.

76
00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:21,153
- Hm.

77
00:05:21,153 --> 00:05:24,038
- And by doing this, I
think it might be possible

78
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to get a deeper comprehension

79
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of what censorship actually is.

80
00:05:47,888 --> 00:05:49,688
- Can we film
outside up from the window

81
00:05:49,688 --> 00:05:51,411
when we're driving, or not?
- No, no.

82
00:05:53,303 --> 00:05:57,958
These guys you see, I think
they are from national security.

83
00:06:07,551 --> 00:06:08,384
- Testing.

84
00:06:09,368 --> 00:06:11,938
Okay, the sound is okay.

85
00:06:11,938 --> 00:06:14,988
If you try to say a
couple of words?

86
00:06:14,988 --> 00:06:18,828
- Well, only to welcome
you to this compound,

87
00:06:18,828 --> 00:06:20,461
the Citizen compound. - Yeah.

88
00:06:25,068 --> 00:06:26,668
- I have
thought for myself,

89
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that the government
of South Sudan censor,

90
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because the country
perhaps needs censorship,

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to calm things down.

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00:06:35,188 --> 00:06:38,611
Hard to argue that the country
don't need to calm tensions.

93
00:06:59,282 --> 00:07:01,308
How is journalism being done?

94
00:07:01,308 --> 00:07:02,738
Are everyone really careful, or?

95
00:07:02,738 --> 00:07:04,788
- You are told there
are certain areas

96
00:07:04,788 --> 00:07:05,698
which you cannot touch.

97
00:07:05,698 --> 00:07:09,248
You cannot talk about the
corruption of the system,

98
00:07:09,248 --> 00:07:11,571
you cannot talk about
freedom of expression

99
00:07:11,571 --> 00:07:13,138
freedom of assemble.

100
00:07:13,138 --> 00:07:14,371
You cannot talk about,

101
00:07:16,018 --> 00:07:18,718
a relation between the
rebels and the government.

102
00:07:18,718 --> 00:07:21,228
We were closed down
because they they told us

103
00:07:21,228 --> 00:07:24,888
that we are pre-empting
the peace talk.

104
00:07:24,888 --> 00:07:28,457
The national security they
are protecting the government

105
00:07:28,457 --> 00:07:32,718
from being criticised
over the issue of peace,

106
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because they don't want
anybody to talk against,

107
00:07:36,171 --> 00:07:38,448
to talk in favour of peace.

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00:07:38,448 --> 00:07:40,831
Because the government
programme is war.

109
00:07:53,238 --> 00:07:55,568
- Mr. Minister, hello?

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How are you?

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00:07:56,401 --> 00:07:57,778
- I'm fine, fine.
- I'm Havard.

112
00:08:04,385 --> 00:08:08,168
I have been talking
to some journalists.

113
00:08:08,168 --> 00:08:10,318
And there seems to be some fear

114
00:08:10,318 --> 00:08:13,081
that if you film outside,
we might be stopped.

115
00:08:13,968 --> 00:08:15,618
- If you film outside?

116
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- You might
be meeting some soldiers

117
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that will tell you, you
should turn off the camera,

118
00:08:19,938 --> 00:08:22,448
you should not do
this sort of things.

119
00:08:22,448 --> 00:08:24,118
How do you think
the relationship

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between that sort of army
activity and the journalists is?

121
00:08:27,988 --> 00:08:29,938
- Well, really, that's right.

122
00:08:29,938 --> 00:08:33,421
You know, there are
military installations,

123
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that in any country,
photographing is prohibited.

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If you go to Juba here,

125
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you will find there's no
soldiers that is moving

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with gun on the streets.

127
00:08:46,878 --> 00:08:50,168
But people have
made it known outside,

128
00:08:50,168 --> 00:08:52,608
as if there's insecurity
in South Sudan,

129
00:08:52,608 --> 00:08:54,868
and it is the UN that
is keeping security?

130
00:08:54,868 --> 00:08:56,018
Is not the UN.

131
00:08:56,018 --> 00:08:57,188
It is a government
of South Sudan

132
00:08:57,188 --> 00:08:59,721
that is keeping law
and order in the country.

133
00:09:01,648 --> 00:09:04,715
- Your chief says
that we should finish now so.

134
00:09:04,715 --> 00:09:05,882
- Yeah.
- Yeah.

135
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Do I need to move?

136
00:09:26,998 --> 00:09:27,831
- No it's okay.

137
00:09:27,831 --> 00:09:32,535
But what would happen if the
national security found us now?

138
00:09:32,535 --> 00:09:33,368
- Well,

139
00:09:36,107 --> 00:09:39,858
well, if you got away
with it you may be lucky.

140
00:09:39,858 --> 00:09:40,691
Yeah.

141
00:09:41,988 --> 00:09:43,378
You might be lucky.

142
00:09:43,378 --> 00:09:44,778
'Cause they may not like it.

143
00:09:46,102 --> 00:09:47,858
Although you have the papers,

144
00:09:47,858 --> 00:09:50,130
but they may not be happy.

145
00:09:50,963 --> 00:09:51,938
- Most of the little

146
00:09:51,938 --> 00:09:54,278
we were allowed to
film in South Sudan,

147
00:09:54,278 --> 00:09:56,831
looked like a fucking
stereotype circus.

148
00:09:58,188 --> 00:10:01,318
I guess I fear being seen
as the arrogant white man,

149
00:10:01,318 --> 00:10:04,208
showing his prejudice
view on Africans.

150
00:10:04,208 --> 00:10:08,115
So I deleted the scenes that
could put me in a bad light.

151
00:10:10,578 --> 00:10:13,278
I just can't find
believable arguments

152
00:10:13,278 --> 00:10:15,691
for why they censor
and jail journalists here.

153
00:10:17,138 --> 00:10:18,778
I guess for a government leading

154
00:10:18,778 --> 00:10:21,248
the third most corrupt
country in the world,

155
00:10:21,248 --> 00:10:24,958
whose army have used
child soldiers and raped girls,

156
00:10:24,958 --> 00:10:28,241
censorship must seem like a
tempting way to kill criticism.

157
00:10:39,358 --> 00:10:41,138
So in the morning
would you perhaps

158
00:10:41,138 --> 00:10:46,138
go through the newspapers
and see what's being written?

159
00:10:46,598 --> 00:10:49,808
- Yes, we have a
whole directorates,

160
00:10:49,808 --> 00:10:52,018
and this is called
Directorate of Information.

161
00:10:52,018 --> 00:10:54,728
That direction is headed
by the Director General.

162
00:10:54,728 --> 00:10:56,408
So generally when
I come in here.

163
00:10:56,408 --> 00:10:57,241
First,

164
00:10:58,214 --> 00:11:02,428
I see what we did
yesterday,

165
00:11:02,428 --> 00:11:04,559
and what we did
not do yesterday,

166
00:11:05,392 --> 00:11:06,978
and then look at the
schedule of today.

167
00:11:08,058 --> 00:11:09,138
I can take it later.

168
00:11:09,138 --> 00:11:11,788
- Okay, but we
can't talk when it's ringing.

169
00:11:14,978 --> 00:11:15,811
- That's okay.

170
00:11:17,545 --> 00:11:19,518
It will give us peace of mind.

171
00:11:19,518 --> 00:11:20,351
- Okay.

172
00:11:20,351 --> 00:11:22,488
- We told all the media houses,

173
00:11:22,488 --> 00:11:25,288
that we don't censor the media.

174
00:11:25,288 --> 00:11:26,648
We don't censor them.

175
00:11:26,648 --> 00:11:29,708
But just do your
work responsibly.

176
00:11:29,708 --> 00:11:32,708
Respect the Constitution,
respect the laws,

177
00:11:32,708 --> 00:11:35,648
respect yourself and
respect your profession,

178
00:11:35,648 --> 00:11:39,848
by following the professional
ethics of journalism.

179
00:11:39,848 --> 00:11:41,238
So whenever there's a mistake,

180
00:11:41,238 --> 00:11:43,078
as you said, or you mentioned.

181
00:11:43,078 --> 00:11:45,728
Whenever there's a
mistake in the newspaper,

182
00:11:45,728 --> 00:11:47,618
we call the chief
editor of the newspaper,

183
00:11:47,618 --> 00:11:48,701
we sit down with them,

184
00:11:48,701 --> 00:11:51,138
we tell them what
we think is wrong

185
00:11:51,138 --> 00:11:53,178
and what is supposed to be done.

186
00:11:53,178 --> 00:11:56,138
- How does it
work in practical terms?

187
00:11:56,138 --> 00:11:57,718
What are the steps?

188
00:11:57,718 --> 00:11:58,618
If for example,

189
00:11:58,618 --> 00:12:02,788
they want to say that peace
has come to South Sudan?

190
00:12:02,788 --> 00:12:04,088
- Yes.

191
00:12:04,088 --> 00:12:05,438
Excuse, can you bring that?

192
00:12:12,089 --> 00:12:13,488
I think the minister
is calling me.

193
00:12:13,488 --> 00:12:14,343
- Ah.

194
00:12:14,343 --> 00:12:15,176
- Yeah.

195
00:12:16,088 --> 00:12:17,068
They try to call on the phone.

196
00:12:17,068 --> 00:12:19,178
- Oh no,
and we disconnected it!

197
00:12:19,178 --> 00:12:20,011
- Yes.

198
00:12:25,318 --> 00:12:26,151
Yes.

199
00:12:27,718 --> 00:12:30,168
It's already transferred,
I just got the message.

200
00:12:31,848 --> 00:12:33,578
- Okay, now.
- Mm.

201
00:12:33,578 --> 00:12:35,448
- Let's try to wind it--
- Mm.

202
00:12:35,448 --> 00:12:37,308
- Because they're going
to turn off the generator.

203
00:12:37,308 --> 00:12:38,330
- Ah, really?

204
00:12:38,330 --> 00:12:39,163
- Yeah.

205
00:12:48,466 --> 00:12:50,981
- Do you have a wide shot?
- Yes.

206
00:12:51,067 --> 00:12:53,198
- It's already off.

207
00:12:53,198 --> 00:12:55,648
Okay, let us take five minutes.

208
00:12:55,648 --> 00:12:56,658
Is that okay?

209
00:12:56,658 --> 00:12:58,521
Yeah, let's do a five
minute, and that's fine.

210
00:12:59,668 --> 00:13:02,318
- There was the case
with the Citizen newspaper?

211
00:13:02,318 --> 00:13:03,308
- Citizen newspaper?

212
00:13:03,308 --> 00:13:04,158
- Yeah.
- Yes.

213
00:13:04,158 --> 00:13:05,998
- There was
a commentary in there

214
00:13:05,998 --> 00:13:08,761
that was not looked,
it was not very good.

215
00:13:09,768 --> 00:13:11,818
- Well, there was a commentary,
but at the end of the day

216
00:13:11,818 --> 00:13:14,478
when the Citizen
newspaper was shut down,

217
00:13:14,478 --> 00:13:15,878
it was not because
of the commentary,

218
00:13:15,878 --> 00:13:16,711
since the newspaper

219
00:13:16,711 --> 00:13:18,858
hasn't been paying
taxes to the government

220
00:13:18,858 --> 00:13:20,781
for very long,
and that's a crime.

221
00:13:21,658 --> 00:13:23,858
So they were told to
go and clear their tax.

222
00:13:25,328 --> 00:13:27,898
- So and that was
the Ministry of Information

223
00:13:27,898 --> 00:13:29,378
that told the newspaper?

224
00:13:29,378 --> 00:13:31,078
- It was not the
Minister of Information,

225
00:13:31,078 --> 00:13:33,268
that's economic section
in the National Security

226
00:13:33,268 --> 00:13:35,328
that follows those who
don't want to pay taxes.

227
00:13:35,328 --> 00:13:36,921
It's a tax evasion.

228
00:13:36,921 --> 00:13:37,754
- Right.

229
00:13:37,754 --> 00:13:39,708
- Yeah, you know
there are always articles

230
00:13:39,708 --> 00:13:43,134
in the newspapers, very
critical of the government.

231
00:13:43,134 --> 00:13:46,838
And now we believe in democracy,
so let them write, yeah.

232
00:13:46,838 --> 00:13:49,488
As long as they're not
endangering national security.

233
00:14:04,798 --> 00:14:06,738
- I jumped
out of South Sudan,

234
00:14:06,738 --> 00:14:09,551
had to find a more uplifting
example of censorship.

235
00:14:10,788 --> 00:14:13,511
Something I could at
least like the intentions of.

236
00:14:15,905 --> 00:14:17,608
- Good morning, Herr Billen?
- I'm Havard.

237
00:14:17,608 --> 00:14:18,441
- Hello.

238
00:14:18,441 --> 00:14:19,274
- That's it.

239
00:14:19,274 --> 00:14:20,448
- Hey, Havard how is it?

240
00:14:20,448 --> 00:14:22,588
- So I went to Germany.

241
00:14:22,588 --> 00:14:23,918
The Ministry of Justice,

242
00:14:23,918 --> 00:14:26,108
has made this
new censorship law,

243
00:14:26,108 --> 00:14:29,458
a device to fight hate
speech on the internet.

244
00:14:29,458 --> 00:14:31,551
The name is a
bit unsexy, though.

245
00:14:31,551 --> 00:14:34,408
Netzwerkdurcgsetzungsgesetz,

246
00:14:34,408 --> 00:14:37,198
and it's criticised
across the world

247
00:14:37,198 --> 00:14:39,541
with comparisons
to Stasi methods.

248
00:14:45,217 --> 00:14:48,051
How did it go in
Brussels yesterday?

249
00:14:48,076 --> 00:14:50,044
- It went well.

250
00:14:50,232 --> 00:14:53,659
I talked with the Commission

251
00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:57,072
about hate speech,
among other things.

252
00:14:58,451 --> 00:15:02,626
Why is this law so
important to you personally?

253
00:15:05,267 --> 00:15:10,376
I have spent a lot of time
talking to the social networks,

254
00:15:10,494 --> 00:15:12,166
as well as civil society,

255
00:15:12,191 --> 00:15:14,584
prosecution
authorities and police.

256
00:15:17,063 --> 00:15:19,920
I find it important
for one thing,

257
00:15:19,945 --> 00:15:22,805
because there
are a lot of victims.

258
00:15:22,830 --> 00:15:27,118
People who are not only
offended and insulted,

259
00:15:27,267 --> 00:15:30,120
but who are
threatened with violence,

260
00:15:30,145 --> 00:15:33,384
discriminated against, goaded.

261
00:15:33,642 --> 00:15:39,042
And I do not find it acceptable
in a democratic society.

262
00:15:39,372 --> 00:15:43,121
We need political
dispute over opinions,

263
00:15:43,317 --> 00:15:47,864
but physical or psychological
threats are going too far.

264
00:15:52,302 --> 00:15:57,542
Nazi slogans. Incitement
of the masses. Hate speech.

265
00:15:57,708 --> 00:16:00,458
Platforms such as
Facebook, YouTube or Twitter

266
00:16:00,483 --> 00:16:03,999
must remove it within
24 hours of notification,

267
00:16:04,177 --> 00:16:07,825
according to the
Network Enforcement Act.

268
00:16:08,229 --> 00:16:11,148
- I mostly like and
understand the Germans.

269
00:16:11,173 --> 00:16:14,756
I want to flush down
the internet hate too.

270
00:16:18,557 --> 00:16:20,598
But I don't get this new law.

271
00:16:20,598 --> 00:16:22,398
All it seems to allow the state

272
00:16:22,398 --> 00:16:25,328
is to hand Facebook
or Google a fine,

273
00:16:25,328 --> 00:16:28,315
A Euro-slap on the
zillionaires' wrists.

274
00:16:28,315 --> 00:16:29,918
Is that it? - Yeah.

275
00:16:29,918 --> 00:16:31,548
- To make them
care about the hate

276
00:16:31,548 --> 00:16:34,348
spewed out on their platforms.

277
00:16:34,348 --> 00:16:35,698
And guys,

278
00:16:35,698 --> 00:16:37,368
why the detour?

279
00:16:37,368 --> 00:16:40,277
Why not just remove
the filth directly?

280
00:16:40,308 --> 00:16:44,188
Free, socialist and nationalist!

281
00:16:44,621 --> 00:16:48,144
We do not have to use the word,

282
00:16:48,254 --> 00:16:53,456
because we all know which old
parasite we are talking about.

283
00:16:53,613 --> 00:16:59,413
In our hearts, then and
now, we are Hitler's People.

284
00:17:23,771 --> 00:17:26,841
Here, for instance.

285
00:17:27,060 --> 00:17:31,654
Here the hearing is finished,
and it goes to the network.

286
00:17:31,748 --> 00:17:34,840
They have to be
questioned and heard.

287
00:17:34,865 --> 00:17:37,907
Then a deadline will be set.

288
00:17:38,141 --> 00:17:41,320
In this instance,
their statement

289
00:17:41,345 --> 00:17:44,165
has been timely received.

290
00:17:44,423 --> 00:17:48,200
Then it will be presented
to the case officer.

291
00:17:48,225 --> 00:17:50,767
But if there is no
timely response,

292
00:17:50,907 --> 00:17:53,800
and the resubmission
deadline is passed,

293
00:17:53,825 --> 00:17:56,837
the case officer
receives the record as is.

294
00:17:56,907 --> 00:18:00,907
All these instances have to be
played out and drawn up here.

295
00:18:15,099 --> 00:18:16,977
Section 86, for instance:

296
00:18:17,002 --> 00:18:21,883
Distribution of propaganda from
unconstitutional organisations.

297
00:18:22,053 --> 00:18:25,125
Section 184b
concerns distribution

298
00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:28,397
and possession of
child pornography.

299
00:18:28,568 --> 00:18:31,988
If I were to display a
swastika, for instance,

300
00:18:32,013 --> 00:18:34,632
the case would
be relatively clear.

301
00:18:34,771 --> 00:18:38,615
But when it comes
to insults or libel,

302
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,920
that will be a challenge
for the networks to evaluate.

303
00:18:44,158 --> 00:18:46,158
And for us as well, afterwards

304
00:18:46,183 --> 00:18:48,915
deciding if it should
have been deleted

305
00:18:49,103 --> 00:18:51,501
and whether the
complaint management

306
00:18:51,526 --> 00:18:53,486
of the networks functions.

307
00:18:53,650 --> 00:18:59,415
So there are a couple of
points where it gets difficult.

308
00:18:59,533 --> 00:19:03,573
We have no experience
yet. Neither do the networks.

309
00:19:03,673 --> 00:19:06,626
Nor do the courts. It's all new.

310
00:19:06,806 --> 00:19:11,751
In this sense, judicial review
can only be a good thing.

311
00:19:11,798 --> 00:19:14,915
Due process of law
will be strengthened.

312
00:19:18,685 --> 00:19:22,379
- I was slowly realising
the sheer scope of it all.

313
00:19:25,568 --> 00:19:29,718
- The Germans had decided
to clean up the internet.

314
00:19:29,718 --> 00:19:31,211
The fucking internet.

315
00:19:38,365 --> 00:19:39,701
Here are the filing rooms.

316
00:19:39,726 --> 00:19:41,732
Yes, here we are, still empty.

317
00:19:44,646 --> 00:19:47,286
We'll see by the end of January.

318
00:19:47,318 --> 00:19:51,198
What exactly will be
here? Documents?

319
00:19:51,271 --> 00:19:57,351
The complaints that we receive
cannot be stored digitally.

320
00:19:57,459 --> 00:20:01,467
Well, technically they can,

321
00:20:01,492 --> 00:20:03,483
but there's no
software for that yet.

322
00:20:03,646 --> 00:20:10,646
They have to be printed
out and kept as files here

323
00:20:10,795 --> 00:20:14,146
In a hanging rack synstem,

324
00:20:14,171 --> 00:20:17,967
so that everything is
properly documented.

325
00:20:18,201 --> 00:20:23,081
How many documents
will it be, do you think?

326
00:20:23,287 --> 00:20:26,630
Are we talking,
like, ten thousand?

327
00:20:26,779 --> 00:20:30,974
We won't resort
to fortune telling.

328
00:20:30,999 --> 00:20:33,857
We'd rather just be surprised.

329
00:20:36,109 --> 00:20:39,518
Beginning Sunday,
Facebook and other networks

330
00:20:39,543 --> 00:20:41,617
must remove illegal content.

331
00:20:41,874 --> 00:20:46,208
Failure to do so could result in
fines of up to 60 million euros.

332
00:20:52,768 --> 00:20:58,838
Right. Before I forget:
Will both of you sit in on this?

333
00:20:58,955 --> 00:21:01,502
Yes, in the background.

334
00:21:01,527 --> 00:21:04,259
Right. You don't want
to be in the frame?

335
00:21:04,408 --> 00:21:07,322
- I'll stand by the door.
- I see.

336
00:21:11,601 --> 00:21:14,621
We're not allowed
to film the screen,

337
00:21:14,646 --> 00:21:17,109
but he'l explain a case for us.

338
00:21:17,414 --> 00:21:19,880
How fast can you
look through a case

339
00:21:19,905 --> 00:21:22,985
and still preserve
every nuance of context?

340
00:21:23,289 --> 00:21:27,689
That will differ
from case to case.

341
00:21:28,039 --> 00:21:33,132
Some things will of course
be easier to recognise.

342
00:21:33,172 --> 00:21:39,609
Representations of
unconsitutional organisations,

343
00:21:39,789 --> 00:21:44,124
or their images, are of
course easier to recognise.

344
00:21:44,422 --> 00:21:48,625
But even then you have
to look at the context,

345
00:21:48,650 --> 00:21:51,000
how it's represented.

346
00:21:51,054 --> 00:21:54,968
Not every swastika
is a violation.

347
00:21:54,993 --> 00:21:56,318
There are differences.

348
00:21:56,751 --> 00:21:58,880
A fist smashing a
sawstika, for instance.

349
00:21:58,905 --> 00:22:03,454
This is where it gets
more complicated, legally.

350
00:22:04,783 --> 00:22:09,343
In case of doubt, I think
the answer we would give

351
00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:14,396
is that we move forward
by first securing evidence.

352
00:22:14,556 --> 00:22:19,596
And at a later stage, if the
case becomes stronger...

353
00:22:19,783 --> 00:22:23,626
So of course, before
administrative fine

354
00:22:23,651 --> 00:22:26,462
proceedings are set in motion,

355
00:22:26,626 --> 00:22:30,910
the social network in
question will be invited

356
00:22:30,935 --> 00:22:33,850
to make a statement on the case.

357
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:38,536
- Not quite...
- It's not like that?

358
00:22:38,716 --> 00:22:43,556
No, that's not correct. The
fine proceedings do start here.

359
00:22:43,927 --> 00:22:47,647
And...it's complicated.

360
00:22:47,786 --> 00:22:51,130
We don't ask law
enforcement to take action,

361
00:22:51,155 --> 00:22:54,310
we just pass
information to them.

362
00:22:54,396 --> 00:23:00,116
The decision to prosecute, based
on that, is entirely up to them.

363
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,200
To put it more simply:

364
00:23:02,225 --> 00:23:06,644
If we conclude that the
matter is a criminal offence,

365
00:23:06,935 --> 00:23:11,615
we pass information
on to law enforcement.

366
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:17,661
- Good, okay.
- Yes. Thank you.

367
00:23:17,833 --> 00:23:20,279
Thank you. I hope the
questions were not...

368
00:23:20,304 --> 00:23:23,372
it is difficult to know
exacly who to...

369
00:23:29,564 --> 00:23:32,058
- After a few
weeks, I started pondering

370
00:23:32,058 --> 00:23:33,921
if this new law could catch on.

371
00:23:35,188 --> 00:23:37,358
If people would
bother to use it,

372
00:23:37,358 --> 00:23:40,771
actually filed reports on
the hatred they find online.

373
00:23:44,668 --> 00:23:47,668
- No, up there.
- There it is.

374
00:23:48,868 --> 00:23:49,988
- Yeah.

375
00:23:50,050 --> 00:23:54,347
- Was that it?
- No, there were three more.

376
00:24:09,221 --> 00:24:12,338
And that's effectively
the hundred-something...

377
00:24:12,363 --> 00:24:14,165
How many are there?

378
00:24:14,331 --> 00:24:18,571
This isn't everything.

379
00:24:18,666 --> 00:24:23,963
But it's most of those
handled by the case workers.

380
00:24:24,385 --> 00:24:26,283
I see.

381
00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:41,618
- I had hoped
that I could find a firm,

382
00:24:41,618 --> 00:24:43,291
German way to censor hate.

383
00:24:47,628 --> 00:24:49,708
But the law seems half-assed,

384
00:24:49,708 --> 00:24:51,058
it makes me sad.

385
00:24:51,058 --> 00:24:54,301
All the hard work they're
putting into it, for what?

386
00:24:56,318 --> 00:24:58,488
I think this field trip of mine,

387
00:24:58,488 --> 00:25:00,028
won't make much sense

388
00:25:00,028 --> 00:25:02,928
unless I can dig up
examples of censorship,

389
00:25:02,928 --> 00:25:04,561
that actually seems to do good.

390
00:25:08,378 --> 00:25:10,908
The obvious start
is to find someone

391
00:25:10,908 --> 00:25:13,041
who simply removes
the bad stuff.

392
00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:05,763
- Shit!

393
00:26:05,763 --> 00:26:06,928
What the fuck was that?

394
00:26:06,928 --> 00:26:08,948
- Put your gun
on the fucking floor!

395
00:26:08,948 --> 00:26:09,781
It's not my fault!

396
00:26:09,781 --> 00:26:11,378
You're the driving
like a fucking dick...

397
00:26:11,378 --> 00:26:13,998
- Oh so you steady
yourself on the trigger.

398
00:26:13,998 --> 00:26:14,928
You see those?

399
00:26:14,928 --> 00:26:16,298
Those are the OSHA handles,

400
00:26:16,298 --> 00:26:17,528
that's what they're there for.

401
00:26:17,528 --> 00:26:18,361
- Shut up!

402
00:26:18,361 --> 00:26:19,828
- Cary me over
there and put me in the tub.

403
00:26:19,828 --> 00:26:21,138
- Yeah, can't do that.

404
00:26:21,138 --> 00:26:22,018
- What do you
mean by can't do that?

405
00:26:22,018 --> 00:26:22,978
- Physically,
I can do that,

406
00:26:22,978 --> 00:26:26,108
but I'm not gonna carry
your naked ass to the tub.

407
00:26:26,108 --> 00:26:27,525
- There was no way--

408
00:26:27,525 --> 00:26:30,198
- Everyone's eating.
- No, it's impossible.

409
00:26:30,198 --> 00:26:31,468
Everyone is not
eating everyone's ass.

410
00:26:31,468 --> 00:26:32,703
- Everyone is not
eating everyone's ass.

411
00:26:32,703 --> 00:26:33,536
They are. - Oh fuck.

412
00:26:37,688 --> 00:26:38,521
Oh, ho,

413
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,203
oh my god!

414
00:26:53,885 --> 00:26:57,298
- So basically all the
f-words are allowed.

415
00:26:57,298 --> 00:26:59,378
But then there are
like you know visuals

416
00:26:59,378 --> 00:27:02,888
where they have focused
on the girl's private parts.

417
00:27:02,888 --> 00:27:05,438
So I think those also have
to be kind of you know.

418
00:27:05,438 --> 00:27:06,628
- Yeah.
- There is a word,

419
00:27:06,628 --> 00:27:08,017
motherfucker, that should go.

420
00:27:08,017 --> 00:27:08,850
- Yeah that can go.

421
00:27:08,850 --> 00:27:10,759
- It has to be
universally cut, yeah, yeah.

422
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:13,005
- Then pussy, cunt and?
- Dick.

423
00:27:13,005 --> 00:27:15,948
- And asshole?
- And asshole is allowed.

424
00:27:15,948 --> 00:27:17,768
- What else, anything else?

425
00:27:17,768 --> 00:27:19,438
- There's one dialogue
which talks about

426
00:27:19,438 --> 00:27:21,436
you know eating the
ass and you know.

427
00:27:21,436 --> 00:27:24,585
- That's entire scene.
- That entire scene should.

428
00:27:24,585 --> 00:27:26,175
- And it has no
relevance to the thing going on.

429
00:27:26,175 --> 00:27:28,158
Because it's not
leading into it.

430
00:27:28,158 --> 00:27:31,238
- The ass thing, in
the tights, isn't this?

431
00:27:31,238 --> 00:27:34,958
His whole sort of
that's his whole focus,

432
00:27:34,958 --> 00:27:36,725
that's what he talks
about all the time.

433
00:27:36,725 --> 00:27:38,613
What happens if you
take out the scene?

434
00:27:38,613 --> 00:27:40,488
- Close-ups have to be where...

435
00:27:40,488 --> 00:27:42,188
It is, I think--

436
00:27:42,188 --> 00:27:43,975
- Now, so it is like this.

437
00:27:43,975 --> 00:27:45,475
We are allowing
it in other places.

438
00:27:45,475 --> 00:27:47,281
Except that parking lot scene.

439
00:27:48,598 --> 00:27:49,621
We are basically saying,

440
00:27:49,621 --> 00:27:53,275
that you can keep that
focus on the ass part is okay,

441
00:27:53,275 --> 00:27:55,198
but the crotch part,
that will have to let go.

442
00:27:55,198 --> 00:27:56,261
- Yeah.

443
00:27:59,868 --> 00:28:00,701
- How are you?
- I'm fine.

444
00:28:00,701 --> 00:28:04,268
- We're allowing all
users with word fucking,

445
00:28:04,268 --> 00:28:05,924
but motherfucker
will not be allowed.

446
00:28:05,924 --> 00:28:08,175
Okay, you'll have
to take care of it.

447
00:28:08,175 --> 00:28:10,298
- Okay.
- Next word is cunt.

448
00:28:10,298 --> 00:28:11,188
Another word dick.

449
00:28:11,188 --> 00:28:12,898
Dick after a long deliberation

450
00:28:12,898 --> 00:28:14,408
we thought dick
will be allowed okay?

451
00:28:14,408 --> 00:28:19,408
Then comes yeah, where this
guy Baker barges into a room

452
00:28:19,588 --> 00:28:23,078
where these the two black guys
are having sex and all that.

453
00:28:23,078 --> 00:28:26,358
So that scene will
have to be deleted.

454
00:28:26,358 --> 00:28:28,228
This is what we had to say.

455
00:28:28,228 --> 00:28:30,951
You tell me if you
have anything else.

456
00:28:30,951 --> 00:28:34,308
- That's lot of
deletion.

457
00:28:34,308 --> 00:28:36,908
- Yeah a lot of deletion,
but this is what you know

458
00:28:36,908 --> 00:28:39,227
as per the guidelines
we follow you know that.

459
00:28:39,227 --> 00:28:40,632
Okay, thank you.

460
00:28:44,808 --> 00:28:45,775
- It's a very complex country,

461
00:28:45,775 --> 00:28:47,308
it's a heterogeneous country,

462
00:28:47,308 --> 00:28:48,141
the cultures are different,

463
00:28:48,141 --> 00:28:50,505
the norms are different
from place to place.

464
00:28:50,505 --> 00:28:53,868
So if the film, this film
was played in some other,

465
00:28:53,868 --> 00:28:56,575
say, small town or
some other place,

466
00:28:56,575 --> 00:28:59,258
it can create an
uncomfortable situation

467
00:28:59,258 --> 00:29:00,778
for a family viewing.

468
00:29:00,778 --> 00:29:02,778
You know some people
may not really like it.

469
00:29:02,778 --> 00:29:05,208
We are not used to public
display of affection at all.

470
00:29:05,208 --> 00:29:06,960
You would not see couples

471
00:29:06,985 --> 00:29:08,668
kissing each
other in the streets.

472
00:29:08,668 --> 00:29:09,776
- Really?
- Never.

473
00:29:20,565 --> 00:29:24,916
- Afternoon, glass or bottle?
- Just pour it into glasses.

474
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,018
I will just put this away.

475
00:29:28,158 --> 00:29:29,988
- She supports you.

476
00:29:29,988 --> 00:29:32,238
She doesn't say
that you're too strict.

477
00:29:33,398 --> 00:29:36,562
The films that should
be have gone through.

478
00:29:36,562 --> 00:29:37,738
- No,

479
00:29:37,738 --> 00:29:40,098
in fact, she's a more
conservative than me.

480
00:29:40,098 --> 00:29:42,158
- Really?
- Yeah, actually, yes.

481
00:29:42,158 --> 00:29:43,088
- Can start with this?

482
00:29:43,088 --> 00:29:43,945
It's getting cold.

483
00:29:43,945 --> 00:29:46,188
- Oh,
thank you so much.

484
00:29:46,188 --> 00:29:47,688
He was saying
that you are actually

485
00:29:47,688 --> 00:29:49,478
more conservative than him.

486
00:29:49,478 --> 00:29:54,178
So you asked if he was
to give a permit for a film

487
00:29:54,178 --> 00:29:57,548
that you found was
too liberally permitted,

488
00:29:57,548 --> 00:29:59,188
that you would complain to him?

489
00:29:59,188 --> 00:30:00,021
- Yes, I would.

490
00:30:00,021 --> 00:30:01,008
- Yeah.
- Certainly.

491
00:30:01,008 --> 00:30:03,778
- What kind of things
is it that you don't like?

492
00:30:03,778 --> 00:30:05,628
- Anything that I feel,

493
00:30:05,628 --> 00:30:09,298
which is not supposed
to be seen with a family

494
00:30:09,298 --> 00:30:10,287
in any respect,

495
00:30:10,287 --> 00:30:14,028
whether it be violence,
vulgarity anything by girl.

496
00:30:14,028 --> 00:30:16,508
- So what I'm saying
if the context of the film

497
00:30:17,828 --> 00:30:19,640
really needed that
particular scene,

498
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,058
it was required from the
context and the flow the story

499
00:30:23,058 --> 00:30:26,018
then to cut it
would be not right,

500
00:30:26,018 --> 00:30:27,277
criminal, in fact.

501
00:30:27,277 --> 00:30:30,448
But if it is not required
then who's affected?

502
00:30:30,448 --> 00:30:32,618
You're trying to just
gain more audience

503
00:30:32,618 --> 00:30:35,662
by inserting a scene which
would be controversial.

504
00:30:47,108 --> 00:30:49,108
- Something
happens with my sympathies,

505
00:30:49,108 --> 00:30:50,791
when I'm invited home for tea.

506
00:30:52,228 --> 00:30:54,991
Like forgetting about the
criticism of the film board.

507
00:30:56,338 --> 00:30:58,318
That it is this extended claw

508
00:30:58,318 --> 00:31:01,098
of the right-wing Hindu
nationalist government

509
00:31:01,098 --> 00:31:03,478
censoring anything too liberal,

510
00:31:03,478 --> 00:31:06,121
too Muslim, too Un-Hindu.

511
00:31:08,353 --> 00:31:09,858
The phones are running hot here.

512
00:31:11,238 --> 00:31:16,018
But mostly it seems, by
folks wanting more censorship.

513
00:31:16,018 --> 00:31:19,295
That this or that film is
offending their Hindu god.

514
00:31:22,486 --> 00:31:24,237
- Faster.
- Hi?

515
00:31:24,237 --> 00:31:26,009
- How are you?

516
00:31:26,009 --> 00:31:27,535
Hello?

517
00:31:27,535 --> 00:31:29,882
- Good morning.
- Good morning.

518
00:31:29,882 --> 00:31:32,353
- Good morning?
- Good morning.

519
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,240
Which film is it?

520
00:31:38,252 --> 00:31:40,170
- "Lipstick
Under My Burkha."

521
00:31:40,170 --> 00:31:42,337
- "Under my Burkha"?
- Yeah.

522
00:31:44,967 --> 00:31:46,720
She could just put
it on her burkha,

523
00:31:46,745 --> 00:31:49,779
and it would not be a problem.

524
00:32:11,308 --> 00:32:15,977
If you betray me, I'll put
this video on Facebook.

525
00:32:33,639 --> 00:32:37,451
Mark this entire sequence.

526
00:32:41,022 --> 00:32:43,644
- How do you
think this this will go?

527
00:32:43,644 --> 00:32:45,987
- Oh, not well at all.

528
00:32:45,987 --> 00:32:48,548
I feel that films that
are quite misogynistic

529
00:32:48,548 --> 00:32:50,088
in which we objectify women

530
00:32:50,088 --> 00:32:52,358
where the camera just keeps
me opened on the woman's body,

531
00:32:52,358 --> 00:32:54,878
and she keeps dancing
the singular item song,

532
00:32:54,878 --> 00:32:57,278
the name itself
is pretty offensive.

533
00:32:57,278 --> 00:33:01,198
So nothing happens,
to that content.

534
00:33:01,198 --> 00:33:02,968
That's freely
played on television,

535
00:33:02,968 --> 00:33:05,451
and little girls are watching
it and dancing on it,

536
00:33:07,038 --> 00:33:11,478
internalising the whole
objectification of women.

537
00:33:11,478 --> 00:33:12,828
But the moment you present

538
00:33:12,828 --> 00:33:14,321
an alternative point of view,

539
00:33:15,508 --> 00:33:17,358
an alternative point of view

540
00:33:17,358 --> 00:33:19,168
which is a more
feministic point of view,

541
00:33:19,168 --> 00:33:20,268
it's very problematic.

542
00:33:23,023 --> 00:33:24,265
What is it?

543
00:33:24,937 --> 00:33:27,140
The whole theme is...

544
00:33:28,805 --> 00:33:30,609
Say it in Hindi.

545
00:33:32,437 --> 00:33:35,116
First of all, the whole
theme is very adult.

546
00:33:35,140 --> 00:33:36,690
- All the love-making scenes

547
00:33:36,690 --> 00:33:39,241
and the visuals are this way.

548
00:33:39,499 --> 00:33:42,445
Bad languages, but
no smoking scenes.

549
00:33:42,470 --> 00:33:44,059
That's why there's
no disclaimer.

550
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,577
What's the picture?

551
00:33:46,968 --> 00:33:48,726
Judging from the whole concept,

552
00:33:48,751 --> 00:33:52,828
it looks like the movie
should be refused.

553
00:33:53,015 --> 00:33:54,980
- Raju bhai,
what about you?

554
00:33:54,980 --> 00:33:56,249
- Refuse.

555
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,686
- Same.
- I agree.

556
00:33:58,739 --> 00:34:01,030
- Refuse.
- Okay, and what about you?

557
00:34:01,428 --> 00:34:03,908
The same, sir.

558
00:34:04,421 --> 00:34:05,895
- What do you think?

559
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,701
- Refuse, refuse.

560
00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:09,873
- What do you say?

561
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,615
I think we should refuse.

562
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,264
We'd have to cut so much that
the whole theme would change.

563
00:34:15,428 --> 00:34:19,974
- Then let's drop it.
What about you?

564
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,500
- The same sir. Refuse.

565
00:34:22,720 --> 00:34:26,156
The burkha is a reality
in today's society.

566
00:34:26,181 --> 00:34:28,210
Regardless of community,

567
00:34:28,405 --> 00:34:32,249
anyone can go into a mall,
change and come out again.

568
00:34:32,274 --> 00:34:34,499
That is a fact.

569
00:34:34,725 --> 00:34:36,410
The problem is the
way the film is told.

570
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,123
- Yeah, exactly.

571
00:34:38,342 --> 00:34:39,942
- Okay, guys. Fetch her.

572
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,845
- This is Mr. Nihalani.
- Yes.

573
00:34:51,057 --> 00:34:55,697
You are the director?
We unanimously refuse the film.

574
00:34:58,093 --> 00:34:59,850
- You can
go to the tribunal.

575
00:34:59,850 --> 00:35:01,893
Whatever suits you.

576
00:35:03,111 --> 00:35:05,111
- Sure. Great, thanks.

577
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:09,840
- Excuse me miss.

578
00:35:09,852 --> 00:35:12,353
Do you have any
comments at all?

579
00:35:12,353 --> 00:35:16,228
- No, there's no space for
any deliberation or anything

580
00:35:16,228 --> 00:35:18,078
since they were a
unanimous decision

581
00:35:18,078 --> 00:35:19,768
and it's not unlike,

582
00:35:19,768 --> 00:35:21,268
so I suggested that

583
00:35:21,268 --> 00:35:24,208
it's better we go
straight to the tribunal.

584
00:35:24,208 --> 00:35:26,216
Yeah, all right thanks.

585
00:35:30,038 --> 00:35:30,978
- I can understand

586
00:35:30,978 --> 00:35:32,931
that the film might
provoke Indians.

587
00:35:34,168 --> 00:35:37,708
It wasn't encouraging
violence or smoking,

588
00:35:37,708 --> 00:35:39,561
but the sex, the obscenity,

589
00:35:41,408 --> 00:35:44,095
I felt the census
could have a point.

590
00:35:47,748 --> 00:35:50,871
You seem to be a very
highly moralled man?

591
00:35:51,752 --> 00:35:54,380
- I believe when you
are, you have a family,

592
00:35:54,821 --> 00:35:57,578
you have to be a
completely part of your family,

593
00:35:57,578 --> 00:36:00,651
and your society
also is your family.

594
00:36:02,108 --> 00:36:05,508
You are to committed
with that society also,

595
00:36:05,508 --> 00:36:06,981
what is your responsibility?

596
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,160
Don't you think so?

597
00:36:13,168 --> 00:36:14,388
- I think so as well.

598
00:36:14,388 --> 00:36:16,211
But at the same time I'm,

599
00:36:17,818 --> 00:36:20,523
I'm very much for the
freedom of expression

600
00:36:20,523 --> 00:36:25,523
and for possibilities to
discuss any issue in the film.

601
00:36:25,887 --> 00:36:30,887
- Freedom of expression
is definitely required,

602
00:36:30,988 --> 00:36:34,098
but you have to keep
everything in your mind,

603
00:36:34,098 --> 00:36:38,046
what totality you are creating,

604
00:36:38,788 --> 00:36:42,468
and what you are creating
the impact of the movie.

605
00:36:42,468 --> 00:36:46,988
If you want to touch
the real incidents

606
00:36:46,988 --> 00:36:48,998
that movie is very limited,

607
00:36:48,998 --> 00:36:52,438
is not a commercial
cinema, it's not a cinema.

608
00:36:52,438 --> 00:36:56,318
Then you have to go
on a different platform

609
00:36:56,318 --> 00:36:59,628
to show your
freedom of expression,

610
00:36:59,628 --> 00:37:03,928
which is required, different
kind of rating system.

611
00:37:03,928 --> 00:37:05,961
And if you see
vulgarity, obscenity,

612
00:37:07,308 --> 00:37:09,718
or creating a
problem for the society

613
00:37:09,718 --> 00:37:11,355
is that freedom of expression?

614
00:37:11,355 --> 00:37:13,838
And then I don't
think it is being

615
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,400
perfect for the Indian audience.

616
00:37:20,650 --> 00:37:22,697
- So it was refused by
the examining committee

617
00:37:22,697 --> 00:37:27,291
and revising committee?
- Unanimously refused.

618
00:37:27,291 --> 00:37:30,978
- And in fact, even though
there were five lady members,

619
00:37:30,978 --> 00:37:33,281
so that makes it even more...

620
00:37:36,211 --> 00:37:37,414
- If you had to guess,

621
00:37:37,414 --> 00:37:39,544
how many signatures
have you done?

622
00:37:39,544 --> 00:37:44,184
- Last year 10,000, 12,500.

623
00:37:54,959 --> 00:37:57,708
- You're after the ratings.
I get that.

624
00:37:57,724 --> 00:37:59,693
- Mr Nihalani, the
question is very simple...

625
00:37:59,842 --> 00:38:02,520
If all you care
about is ratings,

626
00:38:02,545 --> 00:38:05,386
then just keep showing whatever

627
00:38:05,459 --> 00:38:07,373
is available on social media,

628
00:38:07,398 --> 00:38:10,482
and then wives can
divorce their husbands.

629
00:38:10,671 --> 00:38:14,444
Mr Nihlani, the
question is very simple...

630
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,268
- "Lipstick Under My
Burkha" is a clear example

631
00:38:18,354 --> 00:38:22,172
of curtailing the freedom
of speech and expression.

632
00:38:22,172 --> 00:38:25,425
A member of Congress
Party is a quoted to saying,

633
00:38:25,425 --> 00:38:26,405
"And I thought the government

634
00:38:26,405 --> 00:38:28,955
"was moving away from
censorship to certification."

635
00:38:28,955 --> 00:38:31,328
- Listen please, please listen.

636
00:38:31,328 --> 00:38:32,233
The freedom of speech

637
00:38:32,233 --> 00:38:36,428
is one of the holiest
thing of the constitution.

638
00:38:36,428 --> 00:38:38,168
We always uphold it.

639
00:38:38,168 --> 00:38:40,988
Please understand that
we have to follow the Act

640
00:38:40,988 --> 00:38:43,658
and the rules and the guidelines
which are there before us.

641
00:38:43,658 --> 00:38:46,025
CBFC has follow
the law completely.

642
00:38:53,508 --> 00:38:55,478
- Do you think you
would have been the villain

643
00:38:55,478 --> 00:38:57,711
or the hero in the
Bollywood film?

644
00:38:58,868 --> 00:38:59,775
- You decide.

645
00:39:01,848 --> 00:39:04,048
- I guess I
got a bit carried away,

646
00:39:04,048 --> 00:39:06,528
the censors being
so friendly and all.

647
00:39:06,528 --> 00:39:08,418
So I might have ended up showing

648
00:39:08,418 --> 00:39:10,658
a slightly unfair
selection of clips

649
00:39:10,658 --> 00:39:12,355
from "Lipstick Under My Burkha."

650
00:39:13,388 --> 00:39:15,798
I was just so happy
to find censorship

651
00:39:15,798 --> 00:39:17,718
that seemed to make sense.

652
00:39:17,718 --> 00:39:19,698
But it doesn't, does it?

653
00:39:19,698 --> 00:39:21,908
They silence liberal voices,

654
00:39:21,908 --> 00:39:24,968
but don't do much with
a raving nationalism.

655
00:39:24,968 --> 00:39:26,378
And their work sure don't seem

656
00:39:26,378 --> 00:39:28,908
to heal the polarisation
in the country.

657
00:39:28,908 --> 00:39:31,688
So either the censor's
objective is off,

658
00:39:31,688 --> 00:39:33,585
or they don't
take it far enough.

659
00:39:54,308 --> 00:39:55,698
I have this feeling,

660
00:39:55,698 --> 00:39:57,641
I should try to
behave myself in Iran.

661
00:40:01,628 --> 00:40:04,618
With a gentleness and
warmth people show me,

662
00:40:04,618 --> 00:40:06,971
I don't want to come
across as uncultivated.

663
00:40:26,374 --> 00:40:29,103
- Professor
Mohammad Mehdi Zahedi.

664
00:40:29,103 --> 00:40:29,936
- Mehdi Zahedi.

665
00:40:29,936 --> 00:40:32,595
- Is the head of the Higher
Education Committee

666
00:40:32,595 --> 00:40:34,246
of the Parliament now. - Mmm.

667
00:40:34,246 --> 00:40:37,050
- He's the ex-minister
of higher education.

668
00:40:37,050 --> 00:40:37,883
- Yeah.

669
00:40:37,883 --> 00:40:41,108
- And he's a member of the
High Council of the Culture--

670
00:40:41,108 --> 00:40:45,858
- These consist three different
committees, five committees.

671
00:40:45,858 --> 00:40:48,251
- I see.
- I'm the head of all this.

672
00:40:49,138 --> 00:40:50,671
- So much responsibility.

673
00:40:52,878 --> 00:40:54,798
The viewers in the West,

674
00:40:54,798 --> 00:40:56,258
they are probably wondering

675
00:40:56,258 --> 00:40:59,848
what direction Iran
will take in this culture.

676
00:40:59,848 --> 00:41:02,688
If it will go for both
what we in the West

677
00:41:02,688 --> 00:41:04,588
will call for a more open,

678
00:41:04,588 --> 00:41:07,298
or if it will continue
on the line of having

679
00:41:07,298 --> 00:41:11,748
a regulation based
on the Islamic contract?

680
00:41:11,998 --> 00:41:14,310
This question of
yours really upset me.

681
00:41:14,335 --> 00:41:16,088
Translate that first!

682
00:41:16,136 --> 00:41:19,508
- He say, "I got upset
from this question."

683
00:41:19,508 --> 00:41:20,921
- I see, I'm sorry.

684
00:41:21,740 --> 00:41:25,280
It is because you do
not understand Islam,

685
00:41:25,305 --> 00:41:27,924
and think Islam is
against civil liberties.

686
00:41:28,068 --> 00:41:31,000
We believe that the
religion brought about

687
00:41:31,025 --> 00:41:34,332
by our prophet 14000 years ago,

688
00:41:34,568 --> 00:41:38,083
is a comprehensive
and complete religion.

689
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:44,966
Our Quran, which is the miracle
of the religion of Islam,

690
00:41:45,178 --> 00:41:47,240
applies to all centuries.

691
00:41:47,265 --> 00:41:52,498
And its grace is directed
at all of humanity.

692
00:41:52,740 --> 00:41:56,185
Is that what you mean by
freedom, sexual corruption?

693
00:41:56,210 --> 00:41:59,295
Then we openly say
that we are against it.

694
00:41:59,412 --> 00:42:02,758
- If you mean from
freedom that you know,

695
00:42:02,758 --> 00:42:04,558
is sexual free relation,

696
00:42:04,558 --> 00:42:06,723
we say from no
yes, we are against.

697
00:42:06,723 --> 00:42:08,238
- Mmm.

698
00:42:08,238 --> 00:42:09,175
So that means--

699
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,840
We believe in human
ethics and dignity.

700
00:42:12,330 --> 00:42:13,785
- We believe in the morality

701
00:42:13,785 --> 00:42:16,348
and the behaviour
of human beings.

702
00:42:16,348 --> 00:42:17,181
- Yeah.

703
00:42:17,181 --> 00:42:19,908
And this should also
be reflected in the books

704
00:42:19,908 --> 00:42:21,158
that are being published.

705
00:42:21,158 --> 00:42:23,708
- You should be careful
about your question!

706
00:42:23,708 --> 00:42:25,268
- Yeah, I will.

707
00:42:26,298 --> 00:42:29,188
And it's no, it's not meant
to offend in any way.

708
00:42:29,188 --> 00:42:30,409
- No problem.
- Yeah, yeah.

709
00:42:30,409 --> 00:42:32,008
- Okay, thank you sir.

710
00:42:32,008 --> 00:42:33,198
- Thank you so much.

711
00:42:33,198 --> 00:42:34,031
Thank you.

712
00:42:36,298 --> 00:42:38,948
I came to think of
Professor Darnton,

713
00:42:38,948 --> 00:42:41,658
something he tried to get
into my head at Harvard.

714
00:42:41,658 --> 00:42:43,898
- I would recommend,

715
00:42:43,898 --> 00:42:47,228
as you go around
interviewing people responsible

716
00:42:47,228 --> 00:42:50,488
for filtering communication,

717
00:42:50,488 --> 00:42:52,411
that you try to,

718
00:42:53,798 --> 00:42:57,168
not exactly identify with them,

719
00:42:57,168 --> 00:43:00,378
but to listen to them,
to understand them.

720
00:43:00,378 --> 00:43:04,111
And by doing this, I
think it might be possible--

721
00:43:13,488 --> 00:43:16,338
- It's true that
I'm not so intelligent on Iran.

722
00:43:17,828 --> 00:43:20,478
I talked to the Office
for Foreign Press.

723
00:43:20,478 --> 00:43:22,178
They seem to be
the ones deciding

724
00:43:22,178 --> 00:43:23,871
what we can film or not anyway.

725
00:43:25,828 --> 00:43:28,311
They offered me to go to
the Holy Defence Museum.

726
00:43:38,468 --> 00:43:39,301
It's annoying,

727
00:43:39,301 --> 00:43:41,878
I couldn't get any
substantial answers

728
00:43:41,878 --> 00:43:43,591
from the political hardliners.

729
00:43:44,688 --> 00:43:46,578
Their idea for why
there hasn't been

730
00:43:46,578 --> 00:43:48,898
another bloody
revolution in Iran.

731
00:43:48,898 --> 00:43:53,628
A country so split politically,
gloomy priests-rule and all.

732
00:43:53,628 --> 00:43:55,811
Something big should
have happened by now.

733
00:44:00,108 --> 00:44:02,588
I've been giving
it some thought.

734
00:44:02,588 --> 00:44:06,381
What if the Iranian state
have found a cunning solution?

735
00:44:13,748 --> 00:44:16,408
What if you can
fight polarisation,

736
00:44:16,408 --> 00:44:18,391
without the direct
censorship mess?

737
00:44:20,068 --> 00:44:21,918
What if you could
just get to people

738
00:44:21,918 --> 00:44:24,285
to censor themselves instead?

739
00:44:36,178 --> 00:44:39,507
It's better not to show it.

740
00:44:39,532 --> 00:44:42,171
It's better that
we don't show it.

741
00:44:45,358 --> 00:44:48,465
- I don't know what kind
of colleagues we are?

742
00:44:49,908 --> 00:44:51,068
We are not,

743
00:44:51,068 --> 00:44:55,074
we don't have same kind
of point of view, I think.

744
00:44:55,074 --> 00:44:56,352
- You have a
different point of view?

745
00:44:56,352 --> 00:44:57,308
- Yeah , - You have a different

746
00:44:57,308 --> 00:44:58,788
voice in your head?.
- Yeah, of course.

747
00:44:58,788 --> 00:45:01,205
- Your voice is a
bit stricter than his.

748
00:45:01,205 --> 00:45:02,038
- Yeah it is.

749
00:45:02,038 --> 00:45:04,738
- You know that's, I do not.

750
00:45:04,738 --> 00:45:06,618
I think, this is our country.

751
00:45:06,618 --> 00:45:07,702
- Ah.

752
00:45:07,702 --> 00:45:10,298
- So all of us,

753
00:45:10,298 --> 00:45:14,938
have a duty to try to reach

754
00:45:14,938 --> 00:45:16,998
to get to a better situation

755
00:45:16,998 --> 00:45:20,178
for whole people,
for whole country.

756
00:45:20,178 --> 00:45:21,011
- And me either,

757
00:45:21,011 --> 00:45:22,171
it doesn't differ
from what I think.

758
00:45:22,171 --> 00:45:23,898
- No, no--
- Could you explain to me

759
00:45:23,898 --> 00:45:25,678
what is it that
you are afraid of?

760
00:45:25,678 --> 00:45:27,368
If you step over the line?

761
00:45:27,368 --> 00:45:28,618
What could happen to you?

762
00:45:29,594 --> 00:45:31,518
- Because actually, you know,

763
00:45:31,518 --> 00:45:36,518
the people are looking
some guarantee,

764
00:45:38,238 --> 00:45:40,778
to continue to
be able their jobs.

765
00:45:40,778 --> 00:45:41,898
And they think,

766
00:45:41,898 --> 00:45:46,898
if they criticise the
government, so they will lose.

767
00:45:47,448 --> 00:45:49,818
You know, that opportunity.

768
00:45:49,818 --> 00:45:51,098
- Mm-hm.
- I don't believe that.

769
00:45:51,098 --> 00:45:54,598
- I think when there
are some rules,

770
00:45:54,598 --> 00:45:56,938
then it should be clarified.

771
00:45:56,938 --> 00:46:01,938
What kind of words should
be omitted from our writings?

772
00:46:02,428 --> 00:46:04,041
And we should know,

773
00:46:05,408 --> 00:46:07,618
what can hurt people here?

774
00:46:07,618 --> 00:46:11,328
Because they believe,
and I believe too.

775
00:46:11,328 --> 00:46:12,841
Something can be,

776
00:46:13,788 --> 00:46:17,268
it can be meaningful in other
countries in other cultures,

777
00:46:17,268 --> 00:46:19,288
but here it can hurt.

778
00:46:19,288 --> 00:46:20,927
Show me in
the book, what was that?

779
00:46:20,927 --> 00:46:25,718
- Actually the, I can't
find you know the name,

780
00:46:25,718 --> 00:46:27,658
but I think we deleted it.

781
00:46:27,658 --> 00:46:29,772
- Yeah, we deleted.
- The name of the city.

782
00:46:29,772 --> 00:46:31,569
- Why was that?

783
00:46:31,569 --> 00:46:35,478
- It is the Vatican
kind of city of Iran.

784
00:46:35,478 --> 00:46:36,809
- Qom.

785
00:46:36,809 --> 00:46:37,642
- Holy city?

786
00:46:37,642 --> 00:46:39,028
- Holy city.
- Yes.

787
00:46:39,028 --> 00:46:40,528
- So this
was a fiction book

788
00:46:40,528 --> 00:46:43,388
about a girl living her life--

789
00:46:43,388 --> 00:46:44,338
- No.
- Experienced some problems?

790
00:46:44,338 --> 00:46:47,458
- She was from
there and she married,

791
00:46:47,458 --> 00:46:49,713
then she was divorced,

792
00:46:49,713 --> 00:46:54,178
and she was trying to
have another relation

793
00:46:55,048 --> 00:46:57,138
and she was from Qom.

794
00:46:58,131 --> 00:46:59,928
- And why
was it problematic

795
00:46:59,928 --> 00:47:01,318
that she was from Qom?

796
00:47:01,318 --> 00:47:04,035
- She was diverse,
I think maybe.

797
00:47:04,035 --> 00:47:05,438
- So a
person from Qom--

798
00:47:05,438 --> 00:47:08,798
- And she was
travelling around alone.

799
00:47:08,798 --> 00:47:10,018
That's not good maybe.

800
00:47:10,018 --> 00:47:15,575
- Because that's all the
high clergies are in Qom.

801
00:47:15,908 --> 00:47:19,921
So there are several
religious school,

802
00:47:20,788 --> 00:47:23,804
so many students.

803
00:47:23,804 --> 00:47:27,238
And so because of those issues,

804
00:47:27,238 --> 00:47:30,158
they preferred
to delete this one.

805
00:47:30,158 --> 00:47:32,408
- So if you have to go to--

806
00:47:32,408 --> 00:47:33,241
- Hanging out

807
00:47:33,241 --> 00:47:35,828
with Iranian
intellectuals is something.

808
00:47:35,828 --> 00:47:38,851
They've got a hell of a history
of sophisticated writing.

809
00:47:39,506 --> 00:47:43,546
My poetry is my poetry.
My personal poetry.

810
00:47:45,298 --> 00:47:46,428
They took me to the launch

811
00:47:46,428 --> 00:47:49,198
of an avant-garde
poetry magazine,

812
00:47:49,198 --> 00:47:50,771
and they seemed stimulated.

813
00:47:52,648 --> 00:47:54,338
It caves my head in to think

814
00:47:54,338 --> 00:47:56,928
that these guys have
to go about guessing

815
00:47:56,928 --> 00:47:59,578
what they should
remove from the books,

816
00:47:59,578 --> 00:48:02,628
just because the religious
leaders won't tell them

817
00:48:02,628 --> 00:48:05,178
what exactly isn't allowed.

818
00:48:24,012 --> 00:48:25,922
- Okay, how much do you need?

819
00:48:25,922 --> 00:48:27,568
What are you going to buy?

820
00:48:27,568 --> 00:48:29,568
- A box of confectionery
confectionery for him.

821
00:48:29,568 --> 00:48:31,535
- Confectionery
for the Ayatollah.

822
00:48:32,373 --> 00:48:34,373
- Okay.
- That's alright.

823
00:48:35,310 --> 00:48:36,143
Is that usual

824
00:48:36,143 --> 00:48:38,560
to give the Ayatollah
confectionary?

825
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,931
- No, but it's good.
- It's a good thing.

826
00:48:44,988 --> 00:48:48,391
- Let's go.

827
00:48:57,343 --> 00:49:02,787
To the left, this
alley...To the right.

828
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:10,000
14th Alley was here
before. Now it's a bit father.

829
00:49:10,025 --> 00:49:12,709
14th Alley, you said?

830
00:49:13,161 --> 00:49:14,804
- I mean, are
we running a bit late?

831
00:49:14,804 --> 00:49:15,637
- No no.

832
00:49:15,637 --> 00:49:18,272
It's just
him driving like a maniac.

833
00:49:18,272 --> 00:49:19,748
- This is it.
- This is it?

834
00:49:19,748 --> 00:49:20,581
- Yeah.

835
00:49:30,867 --> 00:49:34,471
- I think it's better that,
unlike the previous time,

836
00:49:34,471 --> 00:49:36,343
that I translate your
questions in Farsi,

837
00:49:36,343 --> 00:49:38,426
but let him talk. - Yeah.

838
00:50:05,268 --> 00:50:06,778
- I kind of held back

839
00:50:06,778 --> 00:50:10,558
this little bit of information,
the punishments.

840
00:50:10,558 --> 00:50:13,038
I had hoped that the state
could just get the people

841
00:50:13,038 --> 00:50:14,731
to want to censor themselves,

842
00:50:16,238 --> 00:50:17,988
because it's the
right thing to do.

843
00:50:19,998 --> 00:50:22,888
But I have to admit
that the fear of beating

844
00:50:22,888 --> 00:50:24,531
seems very effective too.

845
00:50:26,788 --> 00:50:28,601
- He's coming.
- He's coming?

846
00:50:28,601 --> 00:50:33,198
Anyway, there I was just
focusing on not misconducting.

847
00:50:33,198 --> 00:50:35,965
I don't think you should
disrespect an Ayatollah.

848
00:50:42,129 --> 00:50:45,009
Be welcomed.

849
00:50:45,278 --> 00:50:47,161
Grand Ayatollah, I'm Havard.

850
00:50:48,374 --> 00:50:52,647
- I am the interpreter.
- I am Moslehi.

851
00:51:01,278 --> 00:51:04,098
- If you can put it
hidden underneath somewhere

852
00:51:04,098 --> 00:51:04,981
around the chest. - Hidden?

853
00:51:05,011 --> 00:51:07,094
- Yes, hidden please.

854
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,582
I am very sorry that I touch
your clothes. I apologize.

855
00:51:10,723 --> 00:51:14,891
- I'm sorry
about the inconvenience.

856
00:51:14,891 --> 00:51:16,591
- No problem.
- Very good, thank you.

857
00:51:18,088 --> 00:51:20,987
- So we are in the
presence of Grand Ayatollah,

858
00:51:20,987 --> 00:51:23,678
Ozma Mohammad Ali Gerami.

859
00:51:23,678 --> 00:51:25,248
One of the prominent scholars

860
00:51:25,248 --> 00:51:27,468
of Islamic seminary of Qom.

861
00:51:27,468 --> 00:51:32,468
Who is one of the very prominent
and outstanding students

862
00:51:32,628 --> 00:51:34,508
of late Imam Khomeini.

863
00:51:34,508 --> 00:51:36,808
- Thank you
so much for meeting us.

864
00:51:37,419 --> 00:51:44,450
I'm glad to meet
you face to face.

865
00:51:44,591 --> 00:51:48,833
I am happy to
have this interview.

866
00:51:48,858 --> 00:51:51,815
You may ask any question.

867
00:51:52,028 --> 00:51:54,918
- Books should be prohibited

868
00:51:55,858 --> 00:52:00,858
that are promoting and
publicising moral corruption.

869
00:52:01,948 --> 00:52:06,718
And for me it's a bit
difficult to understand,

870
00:52:06,718 --> 00:52:10,988
what does the moral
corruption consist of?

871
00:52:10,988 --> 00:52:13,898
Where does the boundaries
for moral corruption go?

872
00:52:13,898 --> 00:52:16,248
and what could be
examples of moral corruption?

873
00:52:17,060 --> 00:52:23,900
Anything that distances a
person from a healthy life.

874
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:29,520
We think it is the
same in the West.

875
00:52:30,248 --> 00:52:32,138
A healthy life is a life

876
00:52:32,163 --> 00:52:35,605
that does not threaten the
fundamentals of family life.

877
00:52:36,138 --> 00:52:38,998
- What could
be concrete examples

878
00:52:38,998 --> 00:52:40,338
perhaps from the West,

879
00:52:40,338 --> 00:52:44,958
that the Grand Ayatollah
sees as corrupting

880
00:52:44,958 --> 00:52:47,521
and destroying family values?

881
00:52:47,815 --> 00:52:53,135
Homesexuality and being
unfaithful to your spouse.

882
00:52:53,744 --> 00:52:55,480
Someone stand by the door,

883
00:52:55,505 --> 00:52:58,035
the men are coming
for the meeting...

884
00:52:59,267 --> 00:53:02,578
- So, homosexuality
should be forbidden

885
00:53:02,578 --> 00:53:06,431
because a man and another
man cannot have children?

886
00:53:06,966 --> 00:53:11,278
Yes, they can't have children,

887
00:53:11,303 --> 00:53:14,669
and also because
soothing human feelings

888
00:53:15,028 --> 00:53:19,731
cannot be shared
between two men.

889
00:53:19,756 --> 00:53:22,012
We know that.

890
00:53:23,208 --> 00:53:28,106
Anyway, being able to
have kids is important.

891
00:53:28,131 --> 00:53:29,958
Therefore, in
religious scripture

892
00:53:30,122 --> 00:53:33,638
we have this statement
that the best woman

893
00:53:33,663 --> 00:53:36,826
is the one who can
have more babies.

894
00:53:37,154 --> 00:53:42,864
Anyway, if we want to develop,

895
00:53:43,248 --> 00:53:47,185
the primary issue is population.

896
00:53:47,466 --> 00:53:51,419
If a society is very
under-populated,

897
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,880
it cannot use the
resources very well.

898
00:53:54,905 --> 00:53:57,263
Therefore, currently,

899
00:53:57,349 --> 00:54:02,497
the power of a country is
measured by its population.

900
00:54:02,656 --> 00:54:05,738
- Wouldn't it be
good if the writers

901
00:54:05,738 --> 00:54:09,188
who have deep knowledge
and have researched the topics,

902
00:54:09,188 --> 00:54:12,278
for example, about
homosexuality,

903
00:54:12,278 --> 00:54:16,568
that they write about this
in a qualitative manner

904
00:54:16,568 --> 00:54:19,898
instead of the public
perhaps going to the internet

905
00:54:19,898 --> 00:54:22,248
where you can find
everything anyway

906
00:54:23,603 --> 00:54:25,861
that the state
has no control of?

907
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:33,665
If it does not lead to
propagating misdeed, it is okay.

908
00:54:33,877 --> 00:54:38,884
But writing about it is
propagating misdeed.

909
00:54:39,127 --> 00:54:43,600
If you distribute
sexually arousing photos,

910
00:54:43,625 --> 00:54:46,151
it will not help to later
say we are against it.

911
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,235
It will already have
had adverse effects.

912
00:54:50,578 --> 00:54:54,888
- Should there be a
concise list of words

913
00:54:54,888 --> 00:54:57,001
and topics that
should be forbidden?

914
00:54:58,029 --> 00:55:04,005
Intellectuals inherently
know what is on that list.

915
00:55:07,708 --> 00:55:08,541
- I see.

916
00:55:09,490 --> 00:55:12,700
Have they arrived?
One person has arrived.

917
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:14,950
- I see.

918
00:55:15,209 --> 00:55:17,074
Our time is up. People
are waiting for me.

919
00:55:17,098 --> 00:55:17,931
- I see.

920
00:55:19,088 --> 00:55:20,061
- I see, I see.

921
00:55:38,648 --> 00:55:41,558
- I think we could
learn loads from the Iranians,

922
00:55:41,558 --> 00:55:43,891
how to be mild and
respectful to people.

923
00:55:45,058 --> 00:55:47,811
Perhaps I should remove
my swearing from the film.

924
00:55:52,068 --> 00:55:55,088
But I had hoped that could pick
up on something else though,

925
00:55:55,088 --> 00:55:58,471
how a state could just nudge
people in a decent direction.

926
00:55:59,458 --> 00:56:01,398
My problem is that
the Iranian state

927
00:56:01,398 --> 00:56:03,561
has a fucking severe
way of nudging.

928
00:56:06,278 --> 00:56:09,478
Hell, I'm making a
film about censorship.

929
00:56:09,478 --> 00:56:12,391
I haven't even dared to use
the word censorship in Iran.

930
00:56:15,988 --> 00:56:19,188
So I'll go to state, that
don't leave it to the people

931
00:56:19,188 --> 00:56:21,408
to figure out what
should be omitted.

932
00:56:45,032 --> 00:56:46,939
I've got him here.

933
00:56:48,704 --> 00:56:50,297
- Let's go.

934
00:56:50,297 --> 00:56:51,157
Let's go.

935
00:56:51,157 --> 00:56:52,907
- We can drive.

936
00:57:26,646 --> 00:57:33,208
This is the director.
His name is Havard.

937
00:57:34,029 --> 00:57:37,990
First, don't mention any names.

938
00:57:38,224 --> 00:57:40,520
Only talk about the media.

939
00:57:40,545 --> 00:57:45,037
Just drop the names.
Maybe just the family name.

940
00:57:45,201 --> 00:57:47,894
And you will be blurred out.
- Okay, I see.

941
00:57:47,918 --> 00:57:51,538
- If you make a story
on a sensitive topic,

942
00:57:51,538 --> 00:57:54,521
what will happen when
you deliver it to your editors?

943
00:57:54,585 --> 00:58:00,905
It's the same for
all the main media.

944
00:58:00,983 --> 00:58:07,030
First you need a permission.

945
00:58:07,304 --> 00:58:13,788
Then it will go through
several layers of censorship.

946
00:58:13,936 --> 00:58:18,366
There are too many
sensitive topics.

947
00:58:18,391 --> 00:58:21,405
Traditionally there are
3 main forbidden topics:

948
00:58:21,577 --> 00:58:25,491
Ethnic issues,
religion, and military.

949
00:58:25,796 --> 00:58:30,276
The topic we are talking
about here is very important,

950
00:58:30,413 --> 00:58:34,397
but things like this
are very secret.

951
00:58:36,905 --> 00:58:43,305
It's only the editors who
really know about these things.

952
00:58:43,444 --> 00:58:47,044
Not people like us.

953
00:59:44,344 --> 00:59:46,235
Oh, hello.

954
00:59:48,478 --> 00:59:49,698
- Hello, I'm Havard.

955
00:59:49,698 --> 00:59:51,498
- Oh!
- Hey, yes.

956
00:59:51,498 --> 00:59:52,741
- Nice to meet you.

957
00:59:58,195 --> 01:00:01,958
- I don't want to send
these guys to labour camps,

958
01:00:01,958 --> 01:00:03,771
so I have to
hide their identity.

959
01:00:05,018 --> 01:00:06,118
But with one of the highest

960
01:00:06,118 --> 01:00:08,318
ranking political
editors in China,

961
01:00:08,318 --> 01:00:09,481
it's a bit different.

962
01:00:10,368 --> 01:00:12,018
He said that
trying to really hide

963
01:00:12,018 --> 01:00:13,781
his identity was meaningless.

964
01:00:15,448 --> 01:00:16,698
The secret police probably

965
01:00:16,698 --> 01:00:19,358
already knew we
were at his place.

966
01:00:19,358 --> 01:00:21,388
But I should
blur his face a bit,

967
01:00:21,388 --> 01:00:23,288
so that what he's about to say,

968
01:00:23,288 --> 01:00:25,520
won't seem like an
open provocation

969
01:00:25,545 --> 01:00:27,517
to the Communist Party.

970
01:00:30,148 --> 01:00:33,231
Have you censored
yourself in your work?

971
01:00:33,712 --> 01:00:39,571
Self-censorship, yes,
for sure. I do it every day.

972
01:00:39,806 --> 01:00:43,486
First of all, the top informs us

973
01:00:43,511 --> 01:00:46,673
about all the
forbidden subjects,

974
01:00:46,829 --> 01:00:50,602
and we will not
write about those.

975
01:00:51,025 --> 01:00:57,227
Secondly, if a
reporter suggests to me

976
01:00:57,540 --> 01:01:04,940
that we go somewhere to make
a story that I think is risky

977
01:01:05,228 --> 01:01:07,993
and touches on
a sensitive topic,

978
01:01:08,018 --> 01:01:10,172
I will not let him do the story.

979
01:01:11,556 --> 01:01:16,072
No matter what news media outlet

980
01:01:16,097 --> 01:01:20,260
we are talking about,

981
01:01:20,384 --> 01:01:24,790
there will always be a small
office inside the building,

982
01:01:24,815 --> 01:01:27,861
monitoring the content.

983
01:01:28,275 --> 01:01:34,712
These people are connected,
and report directly to,

984
01:01:34,923 --> 01:01:42,923
the Publicity Department of
the Communist Party of China.

985
01:02:07,727 --> 01:02:14,647
Let me show you the
four main websites.

986
01:02:14,915 --> 01:02:19,336
We'll open Sohu first.

987
01:02:19,579 --> 01:02:23,727
President Xi Jiping,
Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping.

988
01:02:24,048 --> 01:02:27,891
Then we open
Tencent, and you see

989
01:02:27,916 --> 01:02:31,055
Xi Jinping, Xi
Jinping, Xi Jinping.

990
01:02:31,407 --> 01:02:33,305
Let's try NetEase.

991
01:02:33,330 --> 01:02:36,352
Xi Jinping, Xi
Jinping, Xi Jinping.

992
01:02:36,657 --> 01:02:39,497
And then Sina: Xi Jinping,
Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping.

993
01:02:39,649 --> 01:02:46,203
So the top news on the front
pages of the main websites

994
01:02:46,446 --> 01:02:51,336
are all dictated by
the Central Committee.

995
01:02:51,465 --> 01:02:53,128
- Can you show us
if you for example

996
01:02:53,128 --> 01:02:58,128
now try to search
for New York Times?

997
01:03:04,811 --> 01:03:08,467
Now it will search.

998
01:03:12,576 --> 01:03:16,252
- Okay.
- What does it say?

999
01:03:16,307 --> 01:03:19,424
"Not able to open the website."

1000
01:03:21,698 --> 01:03:25,752
Now, let's try with a VPN.

1001
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:33,408
But this software
is very unstable.

1002
01:03:34,909 --> 01:03:40,627
For instance, I can only
use it for 4 to 5 minutes.

1003
01:03:48,672 --> 01:03:52,491
This is a clip about
the Tiananmen incident.

1004
01:03:53,898 --> 01:03:57,203
In 1989, on the
night of June 3rd,

1005
01:03:57,228 --> 01:04:01,109
People's Liberation Army
tanks drove into Beijing,

1006
01:04:01,328 --> 01:04:05,804
ending the peaceful protest
that had gone on for 50 days.

1007
01:04:06,123 --> 01:04:08,498
This moment, on the
morning of June 5th,

1008
01:04:08,523 --> 01:04:11,613
will be an everlasting
historical symbol.

1009
01:04:11,873 --> 01:04:16,553
There have been many other
revolts against the government.

1010
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:20,990
But people won't know. It's
like they never happened.

1011
01:04:26,218 --> 01:04:29,118
- Perhaps I've added
to the German part unfairly.

1012
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,329
What if there's a bigger
point with the German law?

1013
01:04:34,888 --> 01:04:38,838
To put some pressure on
Facebook, Twitter, Google.

1014
01:04:38,838 --> 01:04:41,108
Make them take
some responsibility,

1015
01:04:41,108 --> 01:04:44,081
for the disgusting shit that
is spread on their platforms.

1016
01:04:46,888 --> 01:04:49,158
Here hardly a word of hate,

1017
01:04:49,158 --> 01:04:51,668
no fake news slips
through the net,

1018
01:04:51,668 --> 01:04:54,278
the firewall and the
shitloads of censors

1019
01:04:54,278 --> 01:04:56,271
their tech giants
are forced to employ.

1020
01:04:57,628 --> 01:04:59,008
Unless of course,

1021
01:04:59,008 --> 01:05:02,221
the state itself wants to
spread some fake news.

1022
01:05:05,133 --> 01:05:10,333
The Chinese Communist
Party and the government

1023
01:05:10,516 --> 01:05:16,961
became very focused
on brain-washing,

1024
01:05:17,503 --> 01:05:22,903
or "educating", the
new generations.

1025
01:05:23,402 --> 01:05:30,220
All students receive
the full package

1026
01:05:30,496 --> 01:05:38,056
of the "Red Education".

1027
01:05:39,941 --> 01:05:47,206
And combined with the Chinese
economy developing rapidly

1028
01:05:47,300 --> 01:05:52,400
and becoming

1029
01:05:52,425 --> 01:05:55,504
very powerful,

1030
01:05:55,691 --> 01:06:03,612
patriotism grew
strong in their hearts.

1031
01:06:07,198 --> 01:06:09,668
- It seems strange
that you can live with a state

1032
01:06:09,668 --> 01:06:12,318
deciding what your
opinions should be

1033
01:06:12,318 --> 01:06:14,121
without freaking the hell out.

1034
01:06:16,478 --> 01:06:18,828
Anyway, apparently,

1035
01:06:18,828 --> 01:06:22,248
no one had managed to get
the 50 cent army on camera,

1036
01:06:22,248 --> 01:06:24,188
the so called
internet commentators

1037
01:06:24,188 --> 01:06:26,578
hired by the Chinese government.

1038
01:06:26,578 --> 01:06:28,578
And said to be paid 50 cents,

1039
01:06:28,578 --> 01:06:30,168
for every nice little post,

1040
01:06:30,168 --> 01:06:32,671
helping President
Xi seemed like Jesus.

1041
01:06:35,958 --> 01:06:37,678
We rigged the hidden camera,

1042
01:06:37,678 --> 01:06:39,928
made up a completely fake story,

1043
01:06:39,928 --> 01:06:42,118
and had the translator
interview them,

1044
01:06:42,118 --> 01:06:43,428
so they wouldn't be scared off

1045
01:06:43,428 --> 01:06:45,131
by meeting a Westerner like me.

1046
01:06:55,670 --> 01:06:57,720
Sorry to keep you waiting.

1047
01:06:57,745 --> 01:07:00,740
We had to finish a
study assignment.

1048
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:10,739
Yesterday you mentioned
"Internal reference reports" -

1049
01:07:10,764 --> 01:07:14,704
what are they?

1050
01:07:14,826 --> 01:07:17,866
They provide
information to the leaders,

1051
01:07:18,131 --> 01:07:22,724
like on the Daxin fire incident,
sensitive topics like that.

1052
01:07:22,857 --> 01:07:26,787
We have to send the leaders

1053
01:07:26,812 --> 01:07:30,961
a comprehensive summary of
public opinions on the issues.

1054
01:07:31,178 --> 01:07:33,724
Crises like the
Daxin fire disaster,

1055
01:07:33,749 --> 01:07:36,732
that affect the public opinion.

1056
01:07:36,928 --> 01:07:41,048
Or when the state ordered the
skyline billboards demolished.

1057
01:07:41,287 --> 01:07:44,767
Or the RYB kindergarden
sexual crimes.

1058
01:07:44,849 --> 01:07:48,872
Big stories that threaten the
stablity of the whole society.

1059
01:07:49,107 --> 01:07:53,787
With these kinds of incidents,
the government has to step in.

1060
01:07:53,943 --> 01:07:59,872
How do you analyse the data?
From the trending searches?

1061
01:08:00,178 --> 01:08:04,069
Not really. We look
at a lot of different info.

1062
01:08:04,094 --> 01:08:06,282
What overseas media writes.

1063
01:08:06,435 --> 01:08:13,155
Overseas media opinions
and domestic media opinions.

1064
01:08:13,256 --> 01:08:16,974
And information
about Internet users.

1065
01:08:17,217 --> 01:08:19,295
Internet users'
comments and opinions?

1066
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:20,708
Yes.

1067
01:08:20,967 --> 01:08:23,755
Did you have any
specific training

1068
01:08:23,780 --> 01:08:26,170
before you started this work?

1069
01:08:26,357 --> 01:08:28,400
Not really.

1070
01:08:28,425 --> 01:08:31,692
Master students don't
need any specific training,

1071
01:08:31,717 --> 01:08:32,805
just guidance.

1072
01:08:32,831 --> 01:08:37,565
- So just brief training?
- Yes.

1073
01:08:37,823 --> 01:08:41,785
Just a little guidance
from Wangxinban

1074
01:08:41,810 --> 01:08:45,567
(Cyberspace
Administration of China).

1075
01:08:45,691 --> 01:08:49,011
You can do Internet
comments and analysis

1076
01:08:49,036 --> 01:08:51,925
because it's part
of what you study?

1077
01:08:52,230 --> 01:08:59,495
Since your master is news and
media, you have the knowledge?

1078
01:08:59,698 --> 01:09:02,183
Are there any other
master programs

1079
01:09:02,208 --> 01:09:04,855
that contribute to this work?

1080
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:06,636
As Internet commenters?

1081
01:09:06,730 --> 01:09:11,290
For instance, science and
technology, or psychology?

1082
01:09:11,488 --> 01:09:15,393
I think as long as the
topic is related to your field,

1083
01:09:15,542 --> 01:09:19,822
you can comment and
give your professional view.

1084
01:09:19,988 --> 01:09:26,667
Do you get paid for doing this?

1085
01:09:26,878 --> 01:09:28,565
Yes.

1086
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:34,263
Is the compensation
similar to a formal job?

1087
01:09:34,435 --> 01:09:38,412
It is similar to working for
the newspaper publishers.

1088
01:09:38,437 --> 01:09:41,303
It is paid per article.

1089
01:09:41,537 --> 01:09:45,607
After your reseach and analysis,

1090
01:09:45,632 --> 01:09:49,951
do you need to make a report?

1091
01:09:50,092 --> 01:09:55,612
And hand it to the government?
- Yes.

1092
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,467
Is it one person or a team
working on these reports?

1093
01:09:59,656 --> 01:10:05,132
The Internal Reference
Report is like a journal.

1094
01:10:05,258 --> 01:10:11,351
It will summarize the public
opinions, and also provide some

1095
01:10:11,508 --> 01:10:17,668
correct advice and opinions
from experts and media.

1096
01:10:17,836 --> 01:10:23,289
- So it is not just the data.
- Not only the data, no.

1097
01:10:23,523 --> 01:10:26,968
You must explain the
whole context to the leader.

1098
01:10:27,031 --> 01:10:29,498
Who is the leader?
University leader?

1099
01:10:29,727 --> 01:10:34,390
- Beijing city leaders.
- Oh, city leaders.

1100
01:10:34,492 --> 01:10:39,052
Do you need to be at
the Renmin university?

1101
01:10:39,203 --> 01:10:44,679
No, analysis is something
you can do on your own.

1102
01:10:44,852 --> 01:10:48,039
But we go to topic
selection meetings.

1103
01:10:48,064 --> 01:10:51,133
You can't focus on everything.

1104
01:10:51,227 --> 01:10:54,107
Like the meeting you
went to yesterday?

1105
01:10:54,227 --> 01:10:57,352
No, that was about
suggesting new members

1106
01:10:57,377 --> 01:11:00,703
for the Communist Party.

1107
01:11:00,961 --> 01:11:06,321
Suggesting members? I am not
a member. What is this meeting?

1108
01:11:06,617 --> 01:11:09,774
After the first
selection of candidates,

1109
01:11:09,799 --> 01:11:11,492
we have this meeting,

1110
01:11:11,578 --> 01:11:13,602
so the public can judge if

1111
01:11:13,627 --> 01:11:16,055
they're good enough
to become members.

1112
01:11:16,297 --> 01:11:18,914
To judge how good a person is.

1113
01:11:18,939 --> 01:11:23,561
See if they qualify for
being a member of the party.

1114
01:11:23,734 --> 01:11:26,008
Is this like the final
selection round?

1115
01:11:26,033 --> 01:11:27,692
Yes, more or less.

1116
01:11:27,922 --> 01:11:31,156
- Are you party members?
- No, not yet.

1117
01:11:31,375 --> 01:11:36,296
We are applicants
for Party membership.

1118
01:11:36,414 --> 01:11:38,711
Over the last years,

1119
01:11:38,736 --> 01:11:45,967
the requirements
have become very strict.

1120
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,607
So it is getting more strict?

1121
01:11:51,849 --> 01:11:56,747
They are very strict on what
your thoughts and views can be.

1122
01:12:12,088 --> 01:12:16,828
- This has led to
the people in itself

1123
01:12:16,828 --> 01:12:20,158
just accepting the positive idea

1124
01:12:20,158 --> 01:12:23,138
of the Chinese state as a fact.

1125
01:12:23,138 --> 01:12:28,138
And there's less and less
need of the government itself

1126
01:12:28,488 --> 01:12:30,528
to produce this
type of propaganda,

1127
01:12:30,528 --> 01:12:33,131
the people will just
reproduce it themselves.

1128
01:12:33,482 --> 01:12:37,771
I have to answer yes.

1129
01:12:45,228 --> 01:12:47,048
- I desperately
wanted to have a chat

1130
01:12:47,048 --> 01:12:48,968
with the spokesman of state.

1131
01:12:48,968 --> 01:12:51,931
And then I got an odd
opportunity to do just that.

1132
01:12:53,078 --> 01:12:54,248
For some reason,

1133
01:12:54,248 --> 01:12:56,018
one of the biggest
state newspapers

1134
01:12:56,018 --> 01:12:58,270
had invited me to a meeting.

1135
01:12:58,270 --> 01:13:00,308
I think the idea
was to convince me,

1136
01:13:00,308 --> 01:13:03,688
to make dreadfully
happy stories from China.

1137
01:13:03,688 --> 01:13:05,079
But I wanted to get their

1138
01:13:05,104 --> 01:13:07,105
official opinions
on touchy stuff.

1139
01:13:08,338 --> 01:13:11,408
I couldn't get hold of
a small spy camera,

1140
01:13:11,408 --> 01:13:13,838
so I tried a more
simple solution.

1141
01:13:13,838 --> 01:13:15,899
- We can speak English.
- Okay.

1142
01:13:15,899 --> 01:13:17,485
- If you have
any questions about.

1143
01:13:17,485 --> 01:13:18,931
- Interesting.

1144
01:13:19,764 --> 01:13:22,778
- The Guangming
Newspaper Corporation.

1145
01:13:22,778 --> 01:13:24,158
- Oh yeah.

1146
01:13:24,158 --> 01:13:24,991
Thank you.

1147
01:13:29,998 --> 01:13:34,998
This paper is wholly
owned by the Chinese state?

1148
01:13:35,918 --> 01:13:37,738
- Yes.
- Okay.

1149
01:13:37,738 --> 01:13:39,938
So which department is under?

1150
01:13:41,743 --> 01:13:42,743
- Publicity.

1151
01:13:43,848 --> 01:13:45,652
- The ministry
that you report to?

1152
01:13:45,652 --> 01:13:47,311
- Publicity, yes.

1153
01:13:47,311 --> 01:13:50,058
Publicity.
- The Ministry of Publicity?

1154
01:13:50,058 --> 01:13:50,911
- Yes.
- Okay.

1155
01:13:52,838 --> 01:13:53,888
So how does that work?

1156
01:13:53,888 --> 01:13:58,085
Is it that you have
some guidelines from us?

1157
01:13:58,085 --> 01:14:01,276
Because we don't have
state papers anymore.

1158
01:14:01,276 --> 01:14:04,975
Do you have guidelines
from the ministry?

1159
01:14:04,975 --> 01:14:06,708
- No.
- No, okay.

1160
01:14:06,708 --> 01:14:10,008
- It's just some
technical guidelines.

1161
01:14:10,008 --> 01:14:10,841
- Okay.

1162
01:14:10,841 --> 01:14:13,708
- We don't receive direct orders

1163
01:14:13,708 --> 01:14:16,271
or something like
this from them.

1164
01:14:18,598 --> 01:14:23,091
- So how do you
deal with like Western media,

1165
01:14:24,988 --> 01:14:29,608
who would like to report
on more sensitive issues

1166
01:14:29,608 --> 01:14:34,268
or issues that are critical
to the Chinese state?

1167
01:14:34,268 --> 01:14:37,593
- The sensitivity is
fine, but not biassed.

1168
01:14:37,593 --> 01:14:39,098
- Not biassed?
- Yes.

1169
01:14:39,098 --> 01:14:40,831
- What does that mean?

1170
01:14:40,831 --> 01:14:44,241
- I have talked to
some journalist,

1171
01:14:45,328 --> 01:14:48,561
from the Guardians, Reuters.

1172
01:14:49,758 --> 01:14:52,202
Because they don't know about,

1173
01:14:52,202 --> 01:14:53,728
the people living Tibet,

1174
01:14:53,728 --> 01:14:55,751
how their life was before,

1175
01:14:56,748 --> 01:14:59,398
because they're
basically slaves.

1176
01:14:59,398 --> 01:15:02,018
And Dalai Lama is a slave owner.

1177
01:15:02,018 --> 01:15:03,225
They don't know this.

1178
01:15:05,658 --> 01:15:07,668
- So for you,

1179
01:15:07,668 --> 01:15:11,568
the Tiananmen Square
student rebellion,

1180
01:15:11,568 --> 01:15:15,734
in the West it's looked
upon as a massacre

1181
01:15:16,567 --> 01:15:19,918
done by the
Chinese state mostly.

1182
01:15:19,918 --> 01:15:23,941
That is the general
idea but how,

1183
01:15:25,494 --> 01:15:30,388
what would be the
Chinese point of view?

1184
01:15:30,388 --> 01:15:35,735
Would it even be possible
to do something on that?

1185
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:39,880
- I believe you have watched
the video about the tank man.

1186
01:15:40,792 --> 01:15:43,248
Have you watched that video?

1187
01:15:43,248 --> 01:15:44,430
- What video?

1188
01:15:44,430 --> 01:15:45,960
Tank man?

1189
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:47,148
The one standing
in front of the tank?

1190
01:15:47,148 --> 01:15:49,064
- Yes.
- I've seen that.

1191
01:15:49,064 --> 01:15:49,897
- Yes.

1192
01:15:49,897 --> 01:15:52,388
So what do you
think about that guy?

1193
01:15:52,388 --> 01:15:54,178
What happened next?

1194
01:15:54,178 --> 01:15:56,028
Has he died or not?

1195
01:15:56,028 --> 01:15:56,861
- I don't know.

1196
01:15:56,861 --> 01:15:59,262
- That's the trick.

1197
01:15:59,262 --> 01:16:00,119
- Ah.

1198
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:02,678
- Because if you
watch the whole video,

1199
01:16:02,678 --> 01:16:07,678
you will see the tank turn
over those gap other way.

1200
01:16:08,518 --> 01:16:10,218
The guy's totally fine.

1201
01:16:11,478 --> 01:16:15,448
Someone bring him
to the side of the street.

1202
01:16:15,448 --> 01:16:16,281
- Mmm.

1203
01:16:16,281 --> 01:16:21,281
- But in the West, the story
is the tank crushed the man.

1204
01:16:21,348 --> 01:16:23,865
That's how, they have done.

1205
01:16:25,931 --> 01:16:27,320
- Altered the facts.

1206
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:28,153
- Yes.

1207
01:16:28,153 --> 01:16:30,648
They never show
you, the show the story,

1208
01:16:30,648 --> 01:16:32,693
but never tell you
the whole story.

1209
01:16:32,693 --> 01:16:34,008
- Okay.

1210
01:16:34,008 --> 01:16:38,013
So from your
journalistic point of view,

1211
01:16:38,013 --> 01:16:42,568
there's no evidence
of students being killed

1212
01:16:42,568 --> 01:16:45,251
or massacred or
these type of things?

1213
01:16:47,537 --> 01:16:50,598
- I'm only like four years ago?

1214
01:16:50,598 --> 01:16:53,592
- Three or four.
- Three years ago, maybe.

1215
01:16:53,592 --> 01:16:58,592
But my uncle, he was
a student in college,

1216
01:16:59,154 --> 01:17:03,448
and himself was one of them,

1217
01:17:03,448 --> 01:17:04,888
at Tiananmen Square.

1218
01:17:04,888 --> 01:17:05,862
- He was
protesting on them?

1219
01:17:05,862 --> 01:17:06,695
- Yes.

1220
01:17:08,205 --> 01:17:12,391
And he told me that we
are also soldiers, killed then.

1221
01:17:12,416 --> 01:17:14,160
We're always asked
the same questions.

1222
01:17:14,185 --> 01:17:15,860
In 2008 we also had
that same question.

1223
01:17:15,888 --> 01:17:17,828
So there are few who die, yes,

1224
01:17:17,828 --> 01:17:20,770
but if you can just say
that's a massacre, no.

1225
01:17:20,770 --> 01:17:22,858
- No, it's not a
balanced way of seeing it?

1226
01:17:22,858 --> 01:17:23,691
- Yes.

1227
01:17:33,348 --> 01:17:36,768
- Can't help being
fucking impressed by this state.

1228
01:17:36,768 --> 01:17:39,908
The Chinese have
censorship figured out.

1229
01:17:39,908 --> 01:17:42,838
One thing for a state to
see and censor everything,

1230
01:17:42,838 --> 01:17:44,768
but simply rewrite history,

1231
01:17:44,768 --> 01:17:47,418
if it doesn't fit
with the Party line.

1232
01:17:47,418 --> 01:17:48,981
That's some advanced shit.

1233
01:17:50,728 --> 01:17:53,448
But in return, on
the surface at least,

1234
01:17:53,448 --> 01:17:55,798
folks have got economic growth,

1235
01:17:55,798 --> 01:17:57,848
Gucci bags and stability,

1236
01:17:57,848 --> 01:17:59,848
who's to blame them
for taking the deal?

1237
01:18:03,328 --> 01:18:07,108
But then, what happens
if the economy goes bad?

1238
01:18:07,108 --> 01:18:08,698
Will there still be bliss

1239
01:18:08,698 --> 01:18:10,678
when the government
start doubling down

1240
01:18:10,678 --> 01:18:12,208
on those who complain?

1241
01:18:12,208 --> 01:18:13,941
And where does the control stop?

1242
01:18:33,935 --> 01:18:35,161
One of the things

1243
01:18:35,161 --> 01:18:38,018
that makes me feel strangely
proud of the Americans

1244
01:18:38,018 --> 01:18:40,098
is the Bill of Rights.

1245
01:18:40,098 --> 01:18:41,728
Congress shall not abridge

1246
01:18:41,728 --> 01:18:44,858
the freedom of
speech or of the press,

1247
01:18:44,858 --> 01:18:47,031
just has this solid sound to it.

1248
01:18:50,128 --> 01:18:52,018
This is the final station,

1249
01:18:52,018 --> 01:18:54,658
the country with the world's
strongest constitutional

1250
01:18:54,658 --> 01:18:56,708
protection against
government censorship.

1251
01:18:59,308 --> 01:19:01,458
I tried for a year
to get meetings

1252
01:19:01,458 --> 01:19:03,468
to talk to the
members of Congress

1253
01:19:03,468 --> 01:19:05,141
bound by that constitution.

1254
01:19:08,198 --> 01:19:09,211
I got zero.

1255
01:19:16,278 --> 01:19:19,178
That's why I decided to jump
them in the hallways instead.

1256
01:19:30,788 --> 01:19:32,158
Sorry to bust in,

1257
01:19:32,158 --> 01:19:33,868
my name is Havard Fossum.

1258
01:19:33,868 --> 01:19:35,218
We're making a documentary

1259
01:19:35,218 --> 01:19:37,540
on the issues of
controlling information

1260
01:19:37,540 --> 01:19:39,438
in the day and age.

1261
01:19:39,438 --> 01:19:41,608
Is the Congressman in today?

1262
01:19:41,608 --> 01:19:44,948
- He's here, but he just left.
- He just left, for lunch?

1263
01:19:44,948 --> 01:19:46,238
You can
shoot him an email.

1264
01:19:46,238 --> 01:19:49,198
- Okay, and then hope that
he would have the time today,

1265
01:19:49,198 --> 01:19:50,214
you reckon?

1266
01:19:50,239 --> 01:19:52,641
I'm not sure, but Kevin would
be the best person to ask.

1267
01:19:52,641 --> 01:19:54,314
- So-so.
- Send him an email.

1268
01:19:54,314 --> 01:19:55,147
- Yeah, yeah.

1269
01:19:55,147 --> 01:19:55,980
Okay, good.

1270
01:19:59,778 --> 01:20:03,678
All that constitutional freedom
and protection of speech.

1271
01:20:03,678 --> 01:20:06,258
Yet a new U.S.
record for censoring

1272
01:20:06,258 --> 01:20:08,761
and withholding government
files has been set.

1273
01:20:10,799 --> 01:20:12,331
It doesn't seem to add up.

1274
01:20:13,568 --> 01:20:15,608
That's why I wanted
to meet them.

1275
01:20:15,608 --> 01:20:16,811
The people in power.

1276
01:20:19,618 --> 01:20:21,428
Who, according to critics,

1277
01:20:21,428 --> 01:20:24,248
have tried to silence
climate scientists

1278
01:20:24,248 --> 01:20:26,638
and imprison whistle-blowers.

1279
01:20:26,638 --> 01:20:28,718
I wanted to hear
their arguments.

1280
01:20:28,718 --> 01:20:31,301
What's at stake, if the
state doesn't censor?

1281
01:20:33,818 --> 01:20:35,038
I just tried to explain to them,

1282
01:20:35,038 --> 01:20:37,438
we're making a
documentary around the world

1283
01:20:37,438 --> 01:20:39,828
on the consequences
of over-regulation,

1284
01:20:39,828 --> 01:20:42,137
basically, of the state.

1285
01:20:42,137 --> 01:20:44,061
Is he in today, or?

1286
01:20:46,258 --> 01:20:47,908
- Send me an email
and we'll go from there.

1287
01:20:47,908 --> 01:20:49,208
- Okay, thanks a lot.

1288
01:20:49,208 --> 01:20:50,158
- Yeah.
- Will do.

1289
01:20:55,234 --> 01:20:58,738
Hello, no one
is available to take your call.

1290
01:20:58,738 --> 01:21:01,399
Please leave a
message after the.

1291
01:21:01,399 --> 01:21:05,660
- You have reached 7-0-3-3-5-7.

1292
01:21:05,660 --> 01:21:08,367
Gentlemen, you
can't video-tape right here.

1293
01:21:08,367 --> 01:21:10,272
This area, this whole
area right here--

1294
01:21:10,272 --> 01:21:11,105
- Sorry, sorry.

1295
01:21:11,105 --> 01:21:12,618
Your call
has been forwarded

1296
01:21:12,618 --> 01:21:15,231
to an automated voice
messaging system.

1297
01:21:17,688 --> 01:21:19,508
- We got no from ODNI as well...

1298
01:21:21,848 --> 01:21:23,518
Mr. King.

1299
01:21:23,518 --> 01:21:26,228
Hello, I've been waiting
for you for quite some time,

1300
01:21:26,228 --> 01:21:28,238
I've been in contact
with your office.

1301
01:21:28,238 --> 01:21:30,665
- Right.
- My name is Havard Fossum.

1302
01:21:30,665 --> 01:21:33,278
I'm making a documentary
on national security

1303
01:21:33,278 --> 01:21:34,828
and the challenges of state.

1304
01:21:34,828 --> 01:21:36,688
- I have to run off
that way, will you?

1305
01:21:36,688 --> 01:21:37,521
- Yeah.

1306
01:21:37,521 --> 01:21:41,758
Are you going to the House
hearing later on cybersecurity?

1307
01:21:41,758 --> 01:21:43,238
- No, I won't be,
I'll be over 1100.

1308
01:21:43,238 --> 01:21:44,438
- Okay.

1309
01:21:44,438 --> 01:21:46,373
Have you got like three
minutes for some comments?

1310
01:21:46,373 --> 01:21:49,628
- Not now, I'm booked right now.

1311
01:21:49,628 --> 01:21:51,418
- Right, right.
- Come back later.

1312
01:21:51,418 --> 01:21:54,138
- Could we wait
for you around here or?

1313
01:21:54,138 --> 01:21:56,792
- I will be there a few hours.
- A few hours, really?

1314
01:21:56,792 --> 01:21:57,625
Okay.

1315
01:22:06,048 --> 01:22:10,341
I had countless mind-numbing
talks with PR chiefs.

1316
01:22:11,788 --> 01:22:15,598
I even tried making pals with
powerful Washington lobbyists,

1317
01:22:15,598 --> 01:22:16,778
but I simply couldn't get

1318
01:22:16,778 --> 01:22:19,341
any of those state
representatives to meet me.

1319
01:22:27,058 --> 01:22:28,638
I thought that going to the U.S.

1320
01:22:28,638 --> 01:22:30,808
was such a clever way to end,

1321
01:22:30,808 --> 01:22:32,688
an excellent little climax

1322
01:22:32,688 --> 01:22:34,602
to this whole
censorship field trip.

1323
01:22:39,064 --> 01:22:42,418
Here, I'm thinking
I've fucked up,

1324
01:22:42,418 --> 01:22:45,288
to be able to meet the
censors everywhere,

1325
01:22:45,288 --> 01:22:48,101
only to end in the one
country where I can't.

1326
01:22:50,938 --> 01:22:53,018
- This is the main
entrance of the CIA,

1327
01:22:53,018 --> 01:22:55,401
you can't really see anything.

1328
01:22:59,378 --> 01:23:01,966
This is the side entrance
to the CIA right here.

1329
01:23:01,966 --> 01:23:03,018
- Mmm.

1330
01:23:03,018 --> 01:23:07,388
- But it is also off limits.

1331
01:23:07,388 --> 01:23:09,035
And you can't see the building.

1332
01:23:09,035 --> 01:23:11,708
But there's a legal
definition of whistleblowing,

1333
01:23:11,708 --> 01:23:14,288
that is bringing to light
any evidence of waste,

1334
01:23:14,288 --> 01:23:16,998
fraud, abuse,
illegality or threats

1335
01:23:16,998 --> 01:23:19,768
to the public health
or public safety.

1336
01:23:19,768 --> 01:23:21,828
Uh-oh, here come the police.

1337
01:23:21,828 --> 01:23:23,758
They're right behind you.
- Yeah, okay.

1338
01:23:23,758 --> 01:23:25,958
- So anyway, the
Freedom of Information Act.

1339
01:23:27,348 --> 01:23:30,031
They know that you're
gonna give up after a while.

1340
01:23:35,618 --> 01:23:36,536
- What's going on?

1341
01:23:36,536 --> 01:23:38,701
- We're just filming
a documentary.

1342
01:23:38,701 --> 01:23:39,534
- What's that?

1343
01:23:39,534 --> 01:23:41,218
- We're just
doing a documentary film,

1344
01:23:41,218 --> 01:23:43,568
around the world, basically,

1345
01:23:43,568 --> 01:23:46,428
showing how state
regulate the expression

1346
01:23:46,428 --> 01:23:47,261
and things like that.

1347
01:23:47,261 --> 01:23:48,878
Okay, you guys do
you have ID by any chance?

1348
01:23:48,878 --> 01:23:49,711
- Yeah.
- So.

1349
01:23:51,058 --> 01:23:53,178
- There you go, officer.
- Thank you.

1350
01:23:53,178 --> 01:23:55,228
- They're just
looking right now.

1351
01:23:55,228 --> 01:23:57,718
If he goes back to
the car, they're serious.

1352
01:23:57,718 --> 01:23:58,551
- Okay.

1353
01:23:59,788 --> 01:24:01,421
- Yep, he's getting in the car.

1354
01:24:02,308 --> 01:24:03,141
- Okay.

1355
01:24:04,008 --> 01:24:05,928
- Yeah, they're calling it in.

1356
01:24:05,928 --> 01:24:07,748
- So they're
calling it into the CIA?

1357
01:24:07,748 --> 01:24:10,277
- Yeah, to the CIA,
they're CIA Police.

1358
01:24:10,277 --> 01:24:11,378
- They're CIA Police?
- Uh-huh.

1359
01:24:11,378 --> 01:24:13,198
- Okay, they
came out of the gate?

1360
01:24:13,198 --> 01:24:14,031
- Yes.

1361
01:24:17,978 --> 01:24:18,811
Here he comes.

1362
01:24:21,048 --> 01:24:22,538
- Okay guys, here you go.
- Thank you.

1363
01:24:22,538 --> 01:24:23,708
- So yeah we're
just stopping by,

1364
01:24:23,708 --> 01:24:24,541
'cause you know
it's dangerous to stop

1365
01:24:24,541 --> 01:24:26,384
on the side of
the road like this.

1366
01:24:26,384 --> 01:24:27,217
- Okay.

1367
01:24:27,217 --> 01:24:28,744
- People were worried
about you guys.

1368
01:24:28,744 --> 01:24:29,577
And just so you know,

1369
01:24:29,577 --> 01:24:32,648
if you stop by some other
government buildings like this,

1370
01:24:32,648 --> 01:24:34,148
you may get cited
for trespassing.

1371
01:24:34,148 --> 01:24:35,678
You're not technically
trespassing here

1372
01:24:35,678 --> 01:24:36,828
but it could be an issue here.

1373
01:24:36,828 --> 01:24:38,928
- Yeah, we tried to stay
as far away as we could.

1374
01:24:38,928 --> 01:24:40,498
- Yeah.
- Okay, well thank you guys.

1375
01:24:40,498 --> 01:24:41,988
- Thank you, have a good day.

1376
01:24:41,988 --> 01:24:42,991
- Yeah, bye.

1377
01:24:47,408 --> 01:24:50,951
- Charged with trespassing.
- Okay, what does that mean?

1378
01:24:52,168 --> 01:24:54,658
- Illegal entry on
government property.

1379
01:24:54,658 --> 01:24:56,968
- Yeah but was that a warning?
- We're not on

1380
01:24:56,968 --> 01:24:59,058
government property,
yeah, that was a warning.

1381
01:24:59,058 --> 01:25:00,911
Stay away, don't do this again.

1382
01:25:05,118 --> 01:25:09,198
- Obviously we sent the official
request to the to the CIA,

1383
01:25:09,198 --> 01:25:12,809
but it was just
turned down flat.

1384
01:25:12,809 --> 01:25:14,458
- Things have really changed.

1385
01:25:14,458 --> 01:25:16,068
- Why did it change?

1386
01:25:16,068 --> 01:25:17,878
- Barack Obama changed it.

1387
01:25:17,878 --> 01:25:20,768
It was Obama who decided
to use the Espionage Act

1388
01:25:21,625 --> 01:25:26,078
to plug leaks,
leaks to the media.

1389
01:25:26,078 --> 01:25:28,438
Only three times
in American history

1390
01:25:28,438 --> 01:25:30,258
before Obama became president

1391
01:25:30,258 --> 01:25:33,318
was the Espionage Act
used to prosecute Americans

1392
01:25:33,318 --> 01:25:35,598
who had spoken to the press.

1393
01:25:35,598 --> 01:25:39,818
Under Obama, eight people
were charged with espionage.

1394
01:25:39,818 --> 01:25:41,448
I was one of those eight.

1395
01:25:41,448 --> 01:25:43,831
- What was your job at the CIA?

1396
01:25:45,491 --> 01:25:49,138
- I was a counter-terrorism
operations officer at the CIA

1397
01:25:49,138 --> 01:25:51,558
and after the
September 11th attacks,

1398
01:25:51,558 --> 01:25:56,048
I was the Chief of CIA
Counter-Terrorism Operations

1399
01:25:56,048 --> 01:25:57,438
in Pakistan.

1400
01:25:57,438 --> 01:26:00,858
And one of my
supervisors asked me

1401
01:26:00,858 --> 01:26:04,548
if I wanted to be trained
in the torture techniques.

1402
01:26:04,548 --> 01:26:05,838
- Was that
what they actually said?

1403
01:26:05,838 --> 01:26:06,808
- No.

1404
01:26:06,808 --> 01:26:09,228
He said enhanced
interrogation techniques.

1405
01:26:09,228 --> 01:26:12,248
And I said I had never
heard that term before.

1406
01:26:12,248 --> 01:26:14,018
So I said, "What's that?"

1407
01:26:14,018 --> 01:26:15,105
And he said, "We're gonna start

1408
01:26:15,105 --> 01:26:16,578
"to get rough with these guys."

1409
01:26:16,578 --> 01:26:17,978
He was very excited like that.

1410
01:26:17,978 --> 01:26:20,928
We killed people
with that technique.

1411
01:26:20,928 --> 01:26:22,718
And nobody was authorised

1412
01:26:22,718 --> 01:26:26,031
to murder people
during interrogations.

1413
01:26:26,988 --> 01:26:27,821
So I said,

1414
01:26:27,821 --> 01:26:30,988
"No, no, this, this sounds
like a torture programme."

1415
01:26:30,988 --> 01:26:33,871
I said, "I have a moral,
ethical problem with this,

1416
01:26:33,871 --> 01:26:35,218
"I'm not interested."

1417
01:26:35,218 --> 01:26:37,738
Espionage, it's
the gravest crime

1418
01:26:37,738 --> 01:26:40,958
with which an American
can be charged.

1419
01:26:40,958 --> 01:26:44,878
And it's frequently a
death penalty charge,

1420
01:26:44,878 --> 01:26:47,921
death penalty for
talking to the press.

1421
01:26:48,888 --> 01:26:51,291
This is the final
entrance to the CIA.

1422
01:26:52,430 --> 01:26:54,128
It's this exit right here.

1423
01:26:54,128 --> 01:26:56,328
So the CIA is right
here through these trees.

1424
01:26:56,328 --> 01:26:57,198
- Yeah.

1425
01:26:57,198 --> 01:26:59,351
- But you can't see it.

1426
01:27:02,798 --> 01:27:04,298
That's probably the best view.

1427
01:27:05,788 --> 01:27:09,358
You can see it in the winter
just barely through the trees

1428
01:27:09,358 --> 01:27:10,338
when the leaves are down

1429
01:27:10,338 --> 01:27:12,811
but any other time of
the year it's impossible.

1430
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:24,440
Repent, for the kingdom
of heaven is at hand.

1431
01:27:24,457 --> 01:27:27,874
- Stop the
violence, stop the hate.

1432
01:27:31,194 --> 01:27:34,063
Repent for the kingdom
of heaven is at hand.

1433
01:27:34,063 --> 01:27:36,813
Stop the violence,
stop the hate.

1434
01:27:46,415 --> 01:27:47,765
- Looks like he's thinking.

1435
01:27:49,218 --> 01:27:50,934
- I think he did
a lot of thinking.

1436
01:27:50,934 --> 01:27:53,858
I think so too.

1437
01:27:53,858 --> 01:27:55,178
- In all the different countries

1438
01:27:55,178 --> 01:27:59,781
I've been to, to Iran,
to China, to Germany,

1439
01:27:59,781 --> 01:28:04,058
we spent quite some time
with the Department of Justice.

1440
01:28:04,058 --> 01:28:06,308
They've all let us in.

1441
01:28:06,308 --> 01:28:09,018
They've all been
eager to explain

1442
01:28:09,018 --> 01:28:10,668
what they're
doing, what they're,

1443
01:28:11,838 --> 01:28:13,701
to give us their arguments.

1444
01:28:15,328 --> 01:28:18,478
And as such have a
sense of transparency

1445
01:28:18,478 --> 01:28:22,138
about what's going on,
how are decisions made,

1446
01:28:22,138 --> 01:28:24,308
how are policy formed,

1447
01:28:24,308 --> 01:28:27,228
and how this is
put out into action?

1448
01:28:27,228 --> 01:28:29,058
But in the U.S., you know,

1449
01:28:29,058 --> 01:28:30,658
we requested interviews,

1450
01:28:30,658 --> 01:28:35,068
we've been trying for
a long time, months,

1451
01:28:35,068 --> 01:28:39,708
just to get someone
inside the EPA to talk to us.

1452
01:28:39,708 --> 01:28:40,541
And they won't.

1453
01:28:41,618 --> 01:28:43,788
I guess we...yeah.

1454
01:28:43,788 --> 01:28:46,848
- So if they see you and the
cameras, they will stay away.

1455
01:28:46,848 --> 01:28:47,958
- Okay, yeah.

1456
01:28:47,958 --> 01:28:50,178
- Or they may wave
from a distance.

1457
01:28:50,178 --> 01:28:51,068
- Yeah.

1458
01:28:51,068 --> 01:28:53,358
- Or if they don't I'll might...

1459
01:28:54,808 --> 01:28:55,641
- Yeah.

1460
01:28:55,641 --> 01:28:56,474
- Particularly with the cameras

1461
01:28:56,474 --> 01:28:58,358
that would be
difficult for them.

1462
01:28:58,358 --> 01:28:59,191
- Sure.

1463
01:29:00,878 --> 01:29:05,878
It's quite, yeah, chilling
in lack of another word,

1464
01:29:07,108 --> 01:29:12,008
to hear that people
are so scared to talk.

1465
01:29:12,008 --> 01:29:13,527
Scientists, people.

1466
01:29:15,373 --> 01:29:16,873
Is that the president? - Yes.

1467
01:29:20,788 --> 01:29:22,530
Morning, gentlemen?

1468
01:29:22,530 --> 01:29:23,472
All right?

1469
01:29:23,472 --> 01:29:25,098
- All right.

1470
01:29:25,098 --> 01:29:25,931
Gentlemen.

1471
01:29:26,888 --> 01:29:28,188
Put your camera down, sir,

1472
01:29:29,258 --> 01:29:30,138
- You've got to put
the camera down.

1473
01:29:30,138 --> 01:29:30,971
- Okay.

1474
01:29:32,618 --> 01:29:34,181
- All the way down.
- Okay.

1475
01:29:36,998 --> 01:29:38,638
- Good, put your car in park.
- It is.

1476
01:29:38,638 --> 01:29:39,828
Go to
the back window

1477
01:29:39,828 --> 01:29:41,278
and open up the trunk for me.

1478
01:29:47,967 --> 01:29:48,800
- Thank you, sir.

1479
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:49,633
You have a good day.

1480
01:30:01,718 --> 01:30:05,838
- I read this Guardian
report a couple of years back,

1481
01:30:05,838 --> 01:30:09,188
it showed the
emails that one of the,

1482
01:30:09,188 --> 01:30:11,888
I guess the transition
heads of the EPA

1483
01:30:11,888 --> 01:30:15,558
was sending to everyone
basically saying that

1484
01:30:15,558 --> 01:30:18,898
climate change is a word
that we don't use anymore?

1485
01:30:18,898 --> 01:30:20,468
- It's been taken
off our website.

1486
01:30:20,468 --> 01:30:23,068
- It should be replaced
with, what, extreme weather?

1487
01:30:23,988 --> 01:30:26,278
- Yeah, I mean, I think it's
part of the bigger narrative.

1488
01:30:26,278 --> 01:30:31,278
I mean, for me, it was,
you're now telling sciences,

1489
01:30:32,088 --> 01:30:33,818
we don't wanna
hear what you say.

1490
01:30:33,818 --> 01:30:37,348
- In case we have forgotten
because we keep hearing

1491
01:30:37,348 --> 01:30:41,928
that 2014 has been the
warmest year on record,

1492
01:30:41,928 --> 01:30:43,998
I asked the chair
you know what this is?

1493
01:30:43,998 --> 01:30:46,008
It's a snowball.

1494
01:30:46,008 --> 01:30:48,568
And that just from outside here,

1495
01:30:48,568 --> 01:30:50,728
so it's very, very cold out.

1496
01:30:50,728 --> 01:30:51,771
Very unseasonal.

1497
01:30:53,818 --> 01:30:56,438
- I knew there was a
good story to be told here

1498
01:30:56,438 --> 01:30:58,248
in the Land of the Free.

1499
01:30:58,248 --> 01:31:00,368
The chilling effect
on free speech

1500
01:31:00,368 --> 01:31:04,258
and political control over
what state employees can say.

1501
01:31:04,258 --> 01:31:06,348
But you see,
their administration

1502
01:31:06,348 --> 01:31:09,408
has developed this
intelligent way to keep folks

1503
01:31:09,408 --> 01:31:12,068
from peeking into
their little businesses.

1504
01:31:12,068 --> 01:31:13,348
They exhaust journalists

1505
01:31:13,348 --> 01:31:15,928
and Norwegian
documentary filmmakers,

1506
01:31:15,928 --> 01:31:18,788
refusing them access,
handing out tweets

1507
01:31:18,788 --> 01:31:20,588
and other fun distractions,

1508
01:31:20,588 --> 01:31:23,401
until the real
information is old news.

1509
01:31:24,958 --> 01:31:27,298
I could either turn apathetic

1510
01:31:27,298 --> 01:31:29,650
or try to get hold
of a whistleblower.

1511
01:31:29,650 --> 01:31:30,733
Good morning?

1512
01:31:31,888 --> 01:31:33,121
We were a bit early.

1513
01:31:33,121 --> 01:31:34,948
- Okay.
- How are you?

1514
01:31:34,948 --> 01:31:36,448
- Good, how are you?
- Hey, I'm Havard.

1515
01:31:36,448 --> 01:31:37,898
Nice to meet you.

1516
01:31:37,898 --> 01:31:40,178
How many years
did you work here?

1517
01:31:40,178 --> 01:31:41,628
- Seven years, I was here.
- Seven years?

1518
01:31:41,628 --> 01:31:42,461
- Yeah, yeah.

1519
01:31:42,461 --> 01:31:46,028
So, you know and it was,

1520
01:31:46,028 --> 01:31:47,108
it was a great seven years.

1521
01:31:47,108 --> 01:31:49,178
It exceeded all my expectations.

1522
01:31:49,178 --> 01:31:51,158
I loved working
in federal service.

1523
01:31:51,158 --> 01:31:51,991
- Yeah.

1524
01:31:51,991 --> 01:31:55,598
- Because just the opportunity
to impact policy directly,

1525
01:31:55,598 --> 01:31:56,838
it was really great. - Yeah.

1526
01:31:56,838 --> 01:31:58,988
- So we've got to go
in this one over here.

1527
01:32:02,698 --> 01:32:03,531
Yeah.

1528
01:32:06,538 --> 01:32:08,280
Is the craft-store open today?

1529
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:10,528
- The craft-store is open.

1530
01:32:10,528 --> 01:32:11,778
Sir, can you not
record me, please?

1531
01:32:11,778 --> 01:32:13,388
Thank you. - Right.

1532
01:32:13,388 --> 01:32:15,238
We just wanted to
have some internal shots

1533
01:32:15,238 --> 01:32:16,794
of the building.

1534
01:32:16,794 --> 01:32:17,804
- You need
to have permission.

1535
01:32:17,804 --> 01:32:20,098
It's not allowed to be filming
in the building right now.

1536
01:32:20,098 --> 01:32:22,768
- Okay, it's not allowed?
- Yes, that's how it is.

1537
01:32:22,768 --> 01:32:23,951
- Thank you, good day

1538
01:32:25,348 --> 01:32:26,508
- What happened to you?

1539
01:32:26,508 --> 01:32:30,228
- Well, so, you know,
one night in June,

1540
01:32:30,228 --> 01:32:32,498
so six months into
the new administration.

1541
01:32:32,498 --> 01:32:34,878
- Yeah.
- I get an email,

1542
01:32:34,878 --> 01:32:35,988
a friend actually called

1543
01:32:35,988 --> 01:32:37,498
and said you might
wanna check your email

1544
01:32:37,498 --> 01:32:40,338
'cause a few people've
have been reassigned.

1545
01:32:40,338 --> 01:32:41,171
I got an email saying,

1546
01:32:41,171 --> 01:32:42,038
you have been reassigned,

1547
01:32:42,038 --> 01:32:43,888
you're now gonna work
in the office that collects

1548
01:32:43,888 --> 01:32:47,078
royalty checks from the oil
and gas and mining companies.

1549
01:32:47,078 --> 01:32:48,868
And I felt like I couldn't
speak out anymore

1550
01:32:48,868 --> 01:32:49,858
about climate change.

1551
01:32:49,858 --> 01:32:51,568
I wouldn't be able to, you know,

1552
01:32:51,568 --> 01:32:54,988
attend events and
engage in my field.

1553
01:32:54,988 --> 01:32:58,488
So I'd already lost the
job that I came to do.

1554
01:32:58,488 --> 01:33:02,218
So in order to keep my
voice I quit a few months later.

1555
01:33:02,218 --> 01:33:04,068
- Yeah, would you call
what you experienced

1556
01:33:04,068 --> 01:33:06,728
and what your colleagues
have experienced

1557
01:33:06,728 --> 01:33:09,658
what's going on inside
the Department of Interior,

1558
01:33:09,658 --> 01:33:11,418
would you call that censorship?

1559
01:33:11,418 --> 01:33:12,738
- Well, I do.

1560
01:33:12,738 --> 01:33:16,308
I have a very loose definition
of censorship these days

1561
01:33:16,308 --> 01:33:17,887
because a lot of
what's happening

1562
01:33:17,887 --> 01:33:20,808
is just creating the
atmosphere of censor,

1563
01:33:20,808 --> 01:33:22,398
the climate of censorship.

1564
01:33:22,398 --> 01:33:23,248
- Right.

1565
01:33:23,248 --> 01:33:24,658
- So that no one feels like

1566
01:33:24,658 --> 01:33:27,498
they can need they
can either express

1567
01:33:27,498 --> 01:33:32,348
nor work on things that
may attract attention,

1568
01:33:32,348 --> 01:33:35,546
undue and unwanted
attention to their work.

1569
01:33:35,546 --> 01:33:37,235
So the self-censorship

1570
01:33:37,235 --> 01:33:39,738
and this climate of
censorship in the building

1571
01:33:39,738 --> 01:33:42,121
and in the offices, is rife.

1572
01:33:46,258 --> 01:33:50,318
- What's at stake then
for the American people

1573
01:33:50,318 --> 01:33:55,318
when we start making
policies on beliefs?

1574
01:33:55,528 --> 01:33:58,581
- Yeah, you know, I
mean, that's, at this point,

1575
01:33:59,578 --> 01:34:01,108
it's health and safety,

1576
01:34:01,108 --> 01:34:04,158
it's the protection of
our natural resources

1577
01:34:04,158 --> 01:34:06,568
that are such a big part
of the American character.

1578
01:34:06,568 --> 01:34:07,628
- Yeah.

1579
01:34:07,628 --> 01:34:10,408
- You know, the public
lands, species, wildlife,

1580
01:34:10,408 --> 01:34:13,518
all the things that we have
laws in place to protect.

1581
01:34:13,518 --> 01:34:15,568
If the implementation
of those laws

1582
01:34:15,568 --> 01:34:19,328
starts to get politicised
in these ways,

1583
01:34:19,328 --> 01:34:20,908
we're not doing, we're
not following through.

1584
01:34:20,908 --> 01:34:22,994
Those laws are promised
to the American people.

1585
01:34:22,994 --> 01:34:24,868
We'll protect you from this,

1586
01:34:24,868 --> 01:34:27,638
we will provide as needed
to protect these lands

1587
01:34:27,638 --> 01:34:29,878
that we all share
and care about,

1588
01:34:29,878 --> 01:34:31,878
and those promises
are being broken now.

1589
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:38,653
That's just a nice picture

1590
01:34:40,598 --> 01:34:43,761
You know, this
country has allowed,

1591
01:34:44,658 --> 01:34:47,278
rather than
publicly-funded elections.

1592
01:34:47,278 --> 01:34:50,368
They're almost
entirely privately-funded

1593
01:34:50,368 --> 01:34:52,388
and you have these Super-PAC's

1594
01:34:52,388 --> 01:34:54,118
we call them Political
Action Committees.

1595
01:34:54,118 --> 01:34:55,368
You don't even have to disclose

1596
01:34:55,368 --> 01:34:56,868
who's putting money
in these things.

1597
01:34:56,868 --> 01:34:58,648
And, so you've got a you know,

1598
01:34:58,648 --> 01:35:00,768
a company can't
resist the opportunity

1599
01:35:00,768 --> 01:35:04,128
to pour money into the
re-election of a candidate

1600
01:35:04,128 --> 01:35:07,188
who has been absolutely
doing as they asked.

1601
01:35:07,188 --> 01:35:09,638
So you could run,
once you're in Congress

1602
01:35:09,638 --> 01:35:13,898
and if you want to say
whatever they want you to say.

1603
01:35:13,898 --> 01:35:16,358
They will make sure
you get re-elected.

1604
01:35:16,358 --> 01:35:18,568
I mean, it's come to that
at this point in this country.

1605
01:35:18,568 --> 01:35:23,568
So, it is very much a
money-driven endeavour.

1606
01:35:24,558 --> 01:35:27,528
Call it what you will, right,
censorship or suppression,

1607
01:35:27,528 --> 01:35:31,118
but keeping
information from people

1608
01:35:31,118 --> 01:35:32,721
whose lives are threatened,

1609
01:35:33,768 --> 01:35:37,688
is, I believe, criminal
and we need to act on that.

1610
01:35:46,275 --> 01:35:50,358
The
establishment protected itself.

1611
01:35:53,568 --> 01:35:56,941
- So, can state
censorship be good?

1612
01:36:03,648 --> 01:36:05,058
I haven't seen anything else

1613
01:36:05,058 --> 01:36:06,908
that looks authoritative enough

1614
01:36:06,908 --> 01:36:09,666
to solve hate speech
and fake news.

1615
01:36:13,968 --> 01:36:15,658
The question is,

1616
01:36:15,658 --> 01:36:18,501
what happens after they
start calling the shots?

1617
01:36:21,318 --> 01:36:24,738
I don't want to ask the state
to make the shit disappear

1618
01:36:24,738 --> 01:36:26,418
if that's the slippery slope,

1619
01:36:26,418 --> 01:36:28,401
ending with a bloody
Thought Police.

1620
01:36:35,968 --> 01:36:37,548
So is it up to me and you, then,

1621
01:36:37,548 --> 01:36:40,148
to do the shit-shoveling
ourselves?

1622
01:36:42,828 --> 01:36:45,258
Fight hatred every single day

1623
01:36:45,258 --> 01:36:49,261
on the internet in the alleys,
wherever the madness goes.

1624
01:36:52,298 --> 01:36:54,088
And with what exactly?

1625
01:36:54,088 --> 01:36:55,318
Dialogue?

1626
01:36:55,318 --> 01:36:57,268
Fine arguments?

1627
01:36:57,268 --> 01:36:58,101
Love?

1628
01:37:00,008 --> 01:37:02,658
Feels bloody
overwhelming, doesn't it?

1629
01:37:02,658 --> 01:37:03,491
Naive.

1630
01:37:06,408 --> 01:37:07,578
Does it even make sense

1631
01:37:07,578 --> 01:37:10,648
to cling on to the liberal
democratic play rules?

1632
01:37:10,648 --> 01:37:12,438
Those the Nazis
and other fanatics

1633
01:37:12,438 --> 01:37:14,321
not only gave a
flying fuck about,

1634
01:37:15,168 --> 01:37:16,651
but actually want to destroy.

1635
01:37:21,068 --> 01:37:22,641
So, what then?

1636
01:37:27,728 --> 01:37:30,408
Perhaps a first
step is to accept

1637
01:37:30,408 --> 01:37:32,998
that dealing with
freedom of speech

1638
01:37:32,998 --> 01:37:35,308
is a constantly
evolving process,

1639
01:37:35,308 --> 01:37:36,551
just like democracy.

1640
01:37:38,458 --> 01:37:41,087
Maybe there is no quick fix.

1641
01:37:45,060 --> 01:37:49,460
Throw out the scum!
Throw out the scum!