WEBVTT FILE 1 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:07.000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:13.000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:52.404 --> 00:00:55.083 Hi. May I pet the horse? It's alright? 4 00:00:55.108 --> 00:00:57.318 Sure, go ahead. 5 00:00:57.412 --> 00:01:00.545 They're the best thing about this rally. 6 00:01:02.123 --> 00:01:04.442 How much does one of these weigh? 7 00:01:04.467 --> 00:01:07.427 How much...800 kilograms or so? 8 00:01:07.514 --> 00:01:08.514 That much. 9 00:01:10.056 --> 00:01:12.907 The ones over there are pretty heavy too. 10 00:01:13.220 --> 00:01:16.650 - The other...horses? - Well, yeah. 11 00:01:19.388 --> 00:01:22.278 - I didn't get that policewoman tried to be funny, 12 00:01:22.278 --> 00:01:24.974 comparing the horse to the pumped-up Nazis, 13 00:01:24.974 --> 00:01:26.211 shouting behind me. 14 00:01:35.822 --> 00:01:38.283 Throw out the scum! 15 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:44.959 If you had any guts, you'd tell your employer to fuck off! 16 00:01:45.197 --> 00:01:48.095 "Our green banner flies..." 17 00:01:48.399 --> 00:01:49.924 Fucking hell... 18 00:01:59.715 --> 00:02:03.184 Traitors of the blood! 19 00:02:05.212 --> 00:02:08.712 - I just dialled down the madness. 20 00:02:12.728 --> 00:02:16.628 It seems stupid to ship in half the country's police 21 00:02:16.628 --> 00:02:17.891 to look after Nazis, 22 00:02:18.818 --> 00:02:21.648 so they can freely express their shit, 23 00:02:21.648 --> 00:02:23.081 without interruptions. 24 00:02:29.388 --> 00:02:32.621 Everyone's got to have freedom of speech in a democracy. 25 00:02:33.648 --> 00:02:34.681 But have you never felt 26 00:02:34.681 --> 00:02:37.586 that this might need some adjustment? 27 00:02:41.168 --> 00:02:43.508 Is it time to call in the state 28 00:02:44.548 --> 00:02:47.640 and simply censor the most polarising, 29 00:02:47.665 --> 00:02:49.572 deranged expressions? 30 00:02:50.673 --> 00:02:53.318 - To be white is to be a striver, 31 00:02:53.318 --> 00:02:56.898 a crusader, and explorer and a conqueror. 32 00:02:56.898 --> 00:02:59.208 We don't exploit other groups. 33 00:02:59.208 --> 00:03:03.068 They need us and not the other way around. 34 00:03:03.901 --> 00:03:06.695 - He said, "I send the messenger Muhammad, 35 00:03:06.695 --> 00:03:08.535 "with the guidance and the deed of truth 36 00:03:08.535 --> 00:03:10.868 "for it to be dominant upon the whole of the world." 37 00:03:10.868 --> 00:03:13.028 No matter how much they hate it, 38 00:03:13.028 --> 00:03:17.628 our objective, the objective of... 39 00:03:17.628 --> 00:03:20.228 is to dominate the whole world by the Sharia. 40 00:03:20.228 --> 00:03:23.668 - When the preaching of God's word is taking place, 41 00:03:23.668 --> 00:03:25.088 first of all, it's not for a woman 42 00:03:25.088 --> 00:03:26.698 to be doing the preaching. 43 00:03:26.698 --> 00:03:29.388 And second of all, it's not for women to be speaking. 44 00:03:29.388 --> 00:03:31.278 Even the Bible is really clear on this, 45 00:03:31.278 --> 00:03:33.191 even if they were to have a question, 46 00:03:34.978 --> 00:03:38.021 they are not to ask that question in the church. 47 00:03:47.188 --> 00:03:50.098 - What if censorship has become necessary? 48 00:03:50.098 --> 00:03:53.271 Just to keep our societies decent. 49 00:03:57.328 --> 00:04:00.448 What if there's a form of state censorship 50 00:04:00.448 --> 00:04:01.698 that could actually work? 51 00:04:03.648 --> 00:04:05.321 That could be good? 52 00:04:07.638 --> 00:04:09.288 So basically, we're gonna travel 53 00:04:09.288 --> 00:04:11.498 to all those different countries 54 00:04:11.498 --> 00:04:16.498 and figure out the rationale behind why they're censor. 55 00:04:16.818 --> 00:04:17.708 And what do you think about it? 56 00:04:17.708 --> 00:04:19.768 - Well, I wish you luck. 57 00:04:19.768 --> 00:04:23.248 Figuring out rationales is not an easy task. 58 00:04:23.248 --> 00:04:25.998 I would say it's anthropological, basically, 59 00:04:25.998 --> 00:04:27.648 or ethnographic. 60 00:04:27.648 --> 00:04:31.698 The point is to understand censorship, not to condemn it. 61 00:04:31.698 --> 00:04:32.638 - Yeah. 62 00:04:32.638 --> 00:04:36.788 - People tend to take a simplified idea of censorship 63 00:04:36.788 --> 00:04:39.898 as a struggle of good against evil, 64 00:04:39.898 --> 00:04:42.288 of liberty against oppression. 65 00:04:42.288 --> 00:04:46.639 It's a sort of Manichaean view that gets it wrong. 66 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.758 I mean, having studied censorship 67 00:04:48.758 --> 00:04:52.548 under various authoritarian regimes, 68 00:04:52.548 --> 00:04:57.548 I must say, I am convinced that censorship 69 00:04:58.008 --> 00:05:01.368 can be positive, it's complicated, 70 00:05:01.368 --> 00:05:04.158 so I would recommend, 71 00:05:04.158 --> 00:05:07.488 as you go around interviewing people responsible 72 00:05:07.488 --> 00:05:10.728 for filtering communication 73 00:05:10.728 --> 00:05:12.838 that you try to... 74 00:05:14.048 --> 00:05:17.408 Not exactly identify with them, 75 00:05:17.408 --> 00:05:20.320 but to listen to them, to understand them. 76 00:05:20.320 --> 00:05:21.153 - Hm. 77 00:05:21.153 --> 00:05:24.038 - And by doing this, I think it might be possible 78 00:05:24.038 --> 00:05:27.608 to get a deeper comprehension 79 00:05:27.608 --> 00:05:30.011 of what censorship actually is. 80 00:05:47.888 --> 00:05:49.688 - Can we film outside up from the window 81 00:05:49.688 --> 00:05:51.411 when we're driving, or not? - No, no. 82 00:05:53.303 --> 00:05:57.958 These guys you see, I think they are from national security. 83 00:06:07.551 --> 00:06:08.384 - Testing. 84 00:06:09.368 --> 00:06:11.938 Okay, the sound is okay. 85 00:06:11.938 --> 00:06:14.988 If you try to say a couple of words? 86 00:06:14.988 --> 00:06:18.828 - Well, only to welcome you to this compound, 87 00:06:18.828 --> 00:06:20.461 the Citizen compound. - Yeah. 88 00:06:25.068 --> 00:06:26.668 - I have thought for myself, 89 00:06:26.668 --> 00:06:29.498 that the government of South Sudan censor, 90 00:06:29.498 --> 00:06:32.518 because the country perhaps needs censorship, 91 00:06:32.518 --> 00:06:33.781 to calm things down. 92 00:06:35.188 --> 00:06:38.611 Hard to argue that the country don't need to calm tensions. 93 00:06:59.282 --> 00:07:01.308 How is journalism being done? 94 00:07:01.308 --> 00:07:02.738 Are everyone really careful, or? 95 00:07:02.738 --> 00:07:04.788 - You are told there are certain areas 96 00:07:04.788 --> 00:07:05.698 which you cannot touch. 97 00:07:05.698 --> 00:07:09.248 You cannot talk about the corruption of the system, 98 00:07:09.248 --> 00:07:11.571 you cannot talk about freedom of expression 99 00:07:11.571 --> 00:07:13.138 freedom of assemble. 100 00:07:13.138 --> 00:07:14.371 You cannot talk about, 101 00:07:16.018 --> 00:07:18.718 a relation between the rebels and the government. 102 00:07:18.718 --> 00:07:21.228 We were closed down because they they told us 103 00:07:21.228 --> 00:07:24.888 that we are pre-empting the peace talk. 104 00:07:24.888 --> 00:07:28.457 The national security they are protecting the government 105 00:07:28.457 --> 00:07:32.718 from being criticised over the issue of peace, 106 00:07:32.718 --> 00:07:36.171 because they don't want anybody to talk against, 107 00:07:36.171 --> 00:07:38.448 to talk in favour of peace. 108 00:07:38.448 --> 00:07:40.831 Because the government programme is war. 109 00:07:53.238 --> 00:07:55.568 - Mr. Minister, hello? 110 00:07:55.568 --> 00:07:56.401 How are you? 111 00:07:56.401 --> 00:07:57.778 - I'm fine, fine. - I'm Havard. 112 00:08:04.385 --> 00:08:08.168 I have been talking to some journalists. 113 00:08:08.168 --> 00:08:10.318 And there seems to be some fear 114 00:08:10.318 --> 00:08:13.081 that if you film outside, we might be stopped. 115 00:08:13.968 --> 00:08:15.618 - If you film outside? 116 00:08:15.618 --> 00:08:17.958 - You might be meeting some soldiers 117 00:08:17.958 --> 00:08:19.938 that will tell you, you should turn off the camera, 118 00:08:19.938 --> 00:08:22.448 you should not do this sort of things. 119 00:08:22.448 --> 00:08:24.118 How do you think the relationship 120 00:08:24.118 --> 00:08:27.988 between that sort of army activity and the journalists is? 121 00:08:27.988 --> 00:08:29.938 - Well, really, that's right. 122 00:08:29.938 --> 00:08:33.421 You know, there are military installations, 123 00:08:34.318 --> 00:08:39.308 that in any country, photographing is prohibited. 124 00:08:39.308 --> 00:08:41.388 If you go to Juba here, 125 00:08:41.388 --> 00:08:44.908 you will find there's no soldiers that is moving 126 00:08:44.908 --> 00:08:46.878 with gun on the streets. 127 00:08:46.878 --> 00:08:50.168 But people have made it known outside, 128 00:08:50.168 --> 00:08:52.608 as if there's insecurity in South Sudan, 129 00:08:52.608 --> 00:08:54.868 and it is the UN that is keeping security? 130 00:08:54.868 --> 00:08:56.018 Is not the UN. 131 00:08:56.018 --> 00:08:57.188 It is a government of South Sudan 132 00:08:57.188 --> 00:08:59.721 that is keeping law and order in the country. 133 00:09:01.648 --> 00:09:04.715 - Your chief says that we should finish now so. 134 00:09:04.715 --> 00:09:05.882 - Yeah. - Yeah. 135 00:09:25.800 --> 00:09:26.998 Do I need to move? 136 00:09:26.998 --> 00:09:27.831 - No it's okay. 137 00:09:27.831 --> 00:09:32.535 But what would happen if the national security found us now? 138 00:09:32.535 --> 00:09:33.368 - Well, 139 00:09:36.107 --> 00:09:39.858 well, if you got away with it you may be lucky. 140 00:09:39.858 --> 00:09:40.691 Yeah. 141 00:09:41.988 --> 00:09:43.378 You might be lucky. 142 00:09:43.378 --> 00:09:44.778 'Cause they may not like it. 143 00:09:46.102 --> 00:09:47.858 Although you have the papers, 144 00:09:47.858 --> 00:09:50.130 but they may not be happy. 145 00:09:50.963 --> 00:09:51.938 - Most of the little 146 00:09:51.938 --> 00:09:54.278 we were allowed to film in South Sudan, 147 00:09:54.278 --> 00:09:56.831 looked like a fucking stereotype circus. 148 00:09:58.188 --> 00:10:01.318 I guess I fear being seen as the arrogant white man, 149 00:10:01.318 --> 00:10:04.208 showing his prejudice view on Africans. 150 00:10:04.208 --> 00:10:08.115 So I deleted the scenes that could put me in a bad light. 151 00:10:10.578 --> 00:10:13.278 I just can't find believable arguments 152 00:10:13.278 --> 00:10:15.691 for why they censor and jail journalists here. 153 00:10:17.138 --> 00:10:18.778 I guess for a government leading 154 00:10:18.778 --> 00:10:21.248 the third most corrupt country in the world, 155 00:10:21.248 --> 00:10:24.958 whose army have used child soldiers and raped girls, 156 00:10:24.958 --> 00:10:28.241 censorship must seem like a tempting way to kill criticism. 157 00:10:39.358 --> 00:10:41.138 So in the morning would you perhaps 158 00:10:41.138 --> 00:10:46.138 go through the newspapers and see what's being written? 159 00:10:46.598 --> 00:10:49.808 - Yes, we have a whole directorates, 160 00:10:49.808 --> 00:10:52.018 and this is called Directorate of Information. 161 00:10:52.018 --> 00:10:54.728 That direction is headed by the Director General. 162 00:10:54.728 --> 00:10:56.408 So generally when I come in here. 163 00:10:56.408 --> 00:10:57.241 First, 164 00:10:58.214 --> 00:11:02.428 I see what we did yesterday, 165 00:11:02.428 --> 00:11:04.559 and what we did not do yesterday, 166 00:11:05.392 --> 00:11:06.978 and then look at the schedule of today. 167 00:11:08.058 --> 00:11:09.138 I can take it later. 168 00:11:09.138 --> 00:11:11.788 - Okay, but we can't talk when it's ringing. 169 00:11:14.978 --> 00:11:15.811 - That's okay. 170 00:11:17.545 --> 00:11:19.518 It will give us peace of mind. 171 00:11:19.518 --> 00:11:20.351 - Okay. 172 00:11:20.351 --> 00:11:22.488 - We told all the media houses, 173 00:11:22.488 --> 00:11:25.288 that we don't censor the media. 174 00:11:25.288 --> 00:11:26.648 We don't censor them. 175 00:11:26.648 --> 00:11:29.708 But just do your work responsibly. 176 00:11:29.708 --> 00:11:32.708 Respect the Constitution, respect the laws, 177 00:11:32.708 --> 00:11:35.648 respect yourself and respect your profession, 178 00:11:35.648 --> 00:11:39.848 by following the professional ethics of journalism. 179 00:11:39.848 --> 00:11:41.238 So whenever there's a mistake, 180 00:11:41.238 --> 00:11:43.078 as you said, or you mentioned. 181 00:11:43.078 --> 00:11:45.728 Whenever there's a mistake in the newspaper, 182 00:11:45.728 --> 00:11:47.618 we call the chief editor of the newspaper, 183 00:11:47.618 --> 00:11:48.701 we sit down with them, 184 00:11:48.701 --> 00:11:51.138 we tell them what we think is wrong 185 00:11:51.138 --> 00:11:53.178 and what is supposed to be done. 186 00:11:53.178 --> 00:11:56.138 - How does it work in practical terms? 187 00:11:56.138 --> 00:11:57.718 What are the steps? 188 00:11:57.718 --> 00:11:58.618 If for example, 189 00:11:58.618 --> 00:12:02.788 they want to say that peace has come to South Sudan? 190 00:12:02.788 --> 00:12:04.088 - Yes. 191 00:12:04.088 --> 00:12:05.438 Excuse, can you bring that? 192 00:12:12.089 --> 00:12:13.488 I think the minister is calling me. 193 00:12:13.488 --> 00:12:14.343 - Ah. 194 00:12:14.343 --> 00:12:15.176 - Yeah. 195 00:12:16.088 --> 00:12:17.068 They try to call on the phone. 196 00:12:17.068 --> 00:12:19.178 - Oh no, and we disconnected it! 197 00:12:19.178 --> 00:12:20.011 - Yes. 198 00:12:25.318 --> 00:12:26.151 Yes. 199 00:12:27.718 --> 00:12:30.168 It's already transferred, I just got the message. 200 00:12:31.848 --> 00:12:33.578 - Okay, now. - Mm. 201 00:12:33.578 --> 00:12:35.448 - Let's try to wind it-- - Mm. 202 00:12:35.448 --> 00:12:37.308 - Because they're going to turn off the generator. 203 00:12:37.308 --> 00:12:38.330 - Ah, really? 204 00:12:38.330 --> 00:12:39.163 - Yeah. 205 00:12:48.466 --> 00:12:50.981 - Do you have a wide shot? - Yes. 206 00:12:51.067 --> 00:12:53.198 - It's already off. 207 00:12:53.198 --> 00:12:55.648 Okay, let us take five minutes. 208 00:12:55.648 --> 00:12:56.658 Is that okay? 209 00:12:56.658 --> 00:12:58.521 Yeah, let's do a five minute, and that's fine. 210 00:12:59.668 --> 00:13:02.318 - There was the case with the Citizen newspaper? 211 00:13:02.318 --> 00:13:03.308 - Citizen newspaper? 212 00:13:03.308 --> 00:13:04.158 - Yeah. - Yes. 213 00:13:04.158 --> 00:13:05.998 - There was a commentary in there 214 00:13:05.998 --> 00:13:08.761 that was not looked, it was not very good. 215 00:13:09.768 --> 00:13:11.818 - Well, there was a commentary, but at the end of the day 216 00:13:11.818 --> 00:13:14.478 when the Citizen newspaper was shut down, 217 00:13:14.478 --> 00:13:15.878 it was not because of the commentary, 218 00:13:15.878 --> 00:13:16.711 since the newspaper 219 00:13:16.711 --> 00:13:18.858 hasn't been paying taxes to the government 220 00:13:18.858 --> 00:13:20.781 for very long, and that's a crime. 221 00:13:21.658 --> 00:13:23.858 So they were told to go and clear their tax. 222 00:13:25.328 --> 00:13:27.898 - So and that was the Ministry of Information 223 00:13:27.898 --> 00:13:29.378 that told the newspaper? 224 00:13:29.378 --> 00:13:31.078 - It was not the Minister of Information, 225 00:13:31.078 --> 00:13:33.268 that's economic section in the National Security 226 00:13:33.268 --> 00:13:35.328 that follows those who don't want to pay taxes. 227 00:13:35.328 --> 00:13:36.921 It's a tax evasion. 228 00:13:36.921 --> 00:13:37.754 - Right. 229 00:13:37.754 --> 00:13:39.708 - Yeah, you know there are always articles 230 00:13:39.708 --> 00:13:43.134 in the newspapers, very critical of the government. 231 00:13:43.134 --> 00:13:46.838 And now we believe in democracy, so let them write, yeah. 232 00:13:46.838 --> 00:13:49.488 As long as they're not endangering national security. 233 00:14:04.798 --> 00:14:06.738 - I jumped out of South Sudan, 234 00:14:06.738 --> 00:14:09.551 had to find a more uplifting example of censorship. 235 00:14:10.788 --> 00:14:13.511 Something I could at least like the intentions of. 236 00:14:15.905 --> 00:14:17.608 - Good morning, Herr Billen? - I'm Havard. 237 00:14:17.608 --> 00:14:18.441 - Hello. 238 00:14:18.441 --> 00:14:19.274 - That's it. 239 00:14:19.274 --> 00:14:20.448 - Hey, Havard how is it? 240 00:14:20.448 --> 00:14:22.588 - So I went to Germany. 241 00:14:22.588 --> 00:14:23.918 The Ministry of Justice, 242 00:14:23.918 --> 00:14:26.108 has made this new censorship law, 243 00:14:26.108 --> 00:14:29.458 a device to fight hate speech on the internet. 244 00:14:29.458 --> 00:14:31.551 The name is a bit unsexy, though. 245 00:14:31.551 --> 00:14:34.408 Netzwerkdurcgsetzungsgesetz, 246 00:14:34.408 --> 00:14:37.198 and it's criticised across the world 247 00:14:37.198 --> 00:14:39.541 with comparisons to Stasi methods. 248 00:14:45.217 --> 00:14:48.051 How did it go in Brussels yesterday? 249 00:14:48.076 --> 00:14:50.044 - It went well. 250 00:14:50.232 --> 00:14:53.659 I talked with the Commission 251 00:14:53.956 --> 00:14:57.072 about hate speech, among other things. 252 00:14:58.451 --> 00:15:02.626 Why is this law so important to you personally? 253 00:15:05.267 --> 00:15:10.376 I have spent a lot of time talking to the social networks, 254 00:15:10.494 --> 00:15:12.166 as well as civil society, 255 00:15:12.191 --> 00:15:14.584 prosecution authorities and police. 256 00:15:17.063 --> 00:15:19.920 I find it important for one thing, 257 00:15:19.945 --> 00:15:22.805 because there are a lot of victims. 258 00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:27.118 People who are not only offended and insulted, 259 00:15:27.267 --> 00:15:30.120 but who are threatened with violence, 260 00:15:30.145 --> 00:15:33.384 discriminated against, goaded. 261 00:15:33.642 --> 00:15:39.042 And I do not find it acceptable in a democratic society. 262 00:15:39.372 --> 00:15:43.121 We need political dispute over opinions, 263 00:15:43.317 --> 00:15:47.864 but physical or psychological threats are going too far. 264 00:15:52.302 --> 00:15:57.542 Nazi slogans. Incitement of the masses. Hate speech. 265 00:15:57.708 --> 00:16:00.458 Platforms such as Facebook, YouTube or Twitter 266 00:16:00.483 --> 00:16:03.999 must remove it within 24 hours of notification, 267 00:16:04.177 --> 00:16:07.825 according to the Network Enforcement Act. 268 00:16:08.229 --> 00:16:11.148 - I mostly like and understand the Germans. 269 00:16:11.173 --> 00:16:14.756 I want to flush down the internet hate too. 270 00:16:18.557 --> 00:16:20.598 But I don't get this new law. 271 00:16:20.598 --> 00:16:22.398 All it seems to allow the state 272 00:16:22.398 --> 00:16:25.328 is to hand Facebook or Google a fine, 273 00:16:25.328 --> 00:16:28.315 A Euro-slap on the zillionaires' wrists. 274 00:16:28.315 --> 00:16:29.918 Is that it? - Yeah. 275 00:16:29.918 --> 00:16:31.548 - To make them care about the hate 276 00:16:31.548 --> 00:16:34.348 spewed out on their platforms. 277 00:16:34.348 --> 00:16:35.698 And guys, 278 00:16:35.698 --> 00:16:37.368 why the detour? 279 00:16:37.368 --> 00:16:40.277 Why not just remove the filth directly? 280 00:16:40.308 --> 00:16:44.188 Free, socialist and nationalist! 281 00:16:44.621 --> 00:16:48.144 We do not have to use the word, 282 00:16:48.254 --> 00:16:53.456 because we all know which old parasite we are talking about. 283 00:16:53.613 --> 00:16:59.413 In our hearts, then and now, we are Hitler's People. 284 00:17:23.771 --> 00:17:26.841 Here, for instance. 285 00:17:27.060 --> 00:17:31.654 Here the hearing is finished, and it goes to the network. 286 00:17:31.748 --> 00:17:34.840 They have to be questioned and heard. 287 00:17:34.865 --> 00:17:37.907 Then a deadline will be set. 288 00:17:38.141 --> 00:17:41.320 In this instance, their statement 289 00:17:41.345 --> 00:17:44.165 has been timely received. 290 00:17:44.423 --> 00:17:48.200 Then it will be presented to the case officer. 291 00:17:48.225 --> 00:17:50.767 But if there is no timely response, 292 00:17:50.907 --> 00:17:53.800 and the resubmission deadline is passed, 293 00:17:53.825 --> 00:17:56.837 the case officer receives the record as is. 294 00:17:56.907 --> 00:18:00.907 All these instances have to be played out and drawn up here. 295 00:18:15.099 --> 00:18:16.977 Section 86, for instance: 296 00:18:17.002 --> 00:18:21.883 Distribution of propaganda from unconstitutional organisations. 297 00:18:22.053 --> 00:18:25.125 Section 184b concerns distribution 298 00:18:25.150 --> 00:18:28.397 and possession of child pornography. 299 00:18:28.568 --> 00:18:31.988 If I were to display a swastika, for instance, 300 00:18:32.013 --> 00:18:34.632 the case would be relatively clear. 301 00:18:34.771 --> 00:18:38.615 But when it comes to insults or libel, 302 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:43.920 that will be a challenge for the networks to evaluate. 303 00:18:44.158 --> 00:18:46.158 And for us as well, afterwards 304 00:18:46.183 --> 00:18:48.915 deciding if it should have been deleted 305 00:18:49.103 --> 00:18:51.501 and whether the complaint management 306 00:18:51.526 --> 00:18:53.486 of the networks functions. 307 00:18:53.650 --> 00:18:59.415 So there are a couple of points where it gets difficult. 308 00:18:59.533 --> 00:19:03.573 We have no experience yet. Neither do the networks. 309 00:19:03.673 --> 00:19:06.626 Nor do the courts. It's all new. 310 00:19:06.806 --> 00:19:11.751 In this sense, judicial review can only be a good thing. 311 00:19:11.798 --> 00:19:14.915 Due process of law will be strengthened. 312 00:19:18.685 --> 00:19:22.379 - I was slowly realising the sheer scope of it all. 313 00:19:25.568 --> 00:19:29.718 - The Germans had decided to clean up the internet. 314 00:19:29.718 --> 00:19:31.211 The fucking internet. 315 00:19:38.365 --> 00:19:39.701 Here are the filing rooms. 316 00:19:39.726 --> 00:19:41.732 Yes, here we are, still empty. 317 00:19:44.646 --> 00:19:47.286 We'll see by the end of January. 318 00:19:47.318 --> 00:19:51.198 What exactly will be here? Documents? 319 00:19:51.271 --> 00:19:57.351 The complaints that we receive cannot be stored digitally. 320 00:19:57.459 --> 00:20:01.467 Well, technically they can, 321 00:20:01.492 --> 00:20:03.483 but there's no software for that yet. 322 00:20:03.646 --> 00:20:10.646 They have to be printed out and kept as files here 323 00:20:10.795 --> 00:20:14.146 In a hanging rack synstem, 324 00:20:14.171 --> 00:20:17.967 so that everything is properly documented. 325 00:20:18.201 --> 00:20:23.081 How many documents will it be, do you think? 326 00:20:23.287 --> 00:20:26.630 Are we talking, like, ten thousand? 327 00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:30.974 We won't resort to fortune telling. 328 00:20:30.999 --> 00:20:33.857 We'd rather just be surprised. 329 00:20:36.109 --> 00:20:39.518 Beginning Sunday, Facebook and other networks 330 00:20:39.543 --> 00:20:41.617 must remove illegal content. 331 00:20:41.874 --> 00:20:46.208 Failure to do so could result in fines of up to 60 million euros. 332 00:20:52.768 --> 00:20:58.838 Right. Before I forget: Will both of you sit in on this? 333 00:20:58.955 --> 00:21:01.502 Yes, in the background. 334 00:21:01.527 --> 00:21:04.259 Right. You don't want to be in the frame? 335 00:21:04.408 --> 00:21:07.322 - I'll stand by the door. - I see. 336 00:21:11.601 --> 00:21:14.621 We're not allowed to film the screen, 337 00:21:14.646 --> 00:21:17.109 but he'l explain a case for us. 338 00:21:17.414 --> 00:21:19.880 How fast can you look through a case 339 00:21:19.905 --> 00:21:22.985 and still preserve every nuance of context? 340 00:21:23.289 --> 00:21:27.689 That will differ from case to case. 341 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:33.132 Some things will of course be easier to recognise. 342 00:21:33.172 --> 00:21:39.609 Representations of unconsitutional organisations, 343 00:21:39.789 --> 00:21:44.124 or their images, are of course easier to recognise. 344 00:21:44.422 --> 00:21:48.625 But even then you have to look at the context, 345 00:21:48.650 --> 00:21:51.000 how it's represented. 346 00:21:51.054 --> 00:21:54.968 Not every swastika is a violation. 347 00:21:54.993 --> 00:21:56.318 There are differences. 348 00:21:56.751 --> 00:21:58.880 A fist smashing a sawstika, for instance. 349 00:21:58.905 --> 00:22:03.454 This is where it gets more complicated, legally. 350 00:22:04.783 --> 00:22:09.343 In case of doubt, I think the answer we would give 351 00:22:09.556 --> 00:22:14.396 is that we move forward by first securing evidence. 352 00:22:14.556 --> 00:22:19.596 And at a later stage, if the case becomes stronger... 353 00:22:19.783 --> 00:22:23.626 So of course, before administrative fine 354 00:22:23.651 --> 00:22:26.462 proceedings are set in motion, 355 00:22:26.626 --> 00:22:30.910 the social network in question will be invited 356 00:22:30.935 --> 00:22:33.850 to make a statement on the case. 357 00:22:34.060 --> 00:22:38.536 - Not quite... - It's not like that? 358 00:22:38.716 --> 00:22:43.556 No, that's not correct. The fine proceedings do start here. 359 00:22:43.927 --> 00:22:47.647 And...it's complicated. 360 00:22:47.786 --> 00:22:51.130 We don't ask law enforcement to take action, 361 00:22:51.155 --> 00:22:54.310 we just pass information to them. 362 00:22:54.396 --> 00:23:00.116 The decision to prosecute, based on that, is entirely up to them. 363 00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:02.200 To put it more simply: 364 00:23:02.225 --> 00:23:06.644 If we conclude that the matter is a criminal offence, 365 00:23:06.935 --> 00:23:11.615 we pass information on to law enforcement. 366 00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:17.661 - Good, okay. - Yes. Thank you. 367 00:23:17.833 --> 00:23:20.279 Thank you. I hope the questions were not... 368 00:23:20.304 --> 00:23:23.372 it is difficult to know exacly who to... 369 00:23:29.564 --> 00:23:32.058 - After a few weeks, I started pondering 370 00:23:32.058 --> 00:23:33.921 if this new law could catch on. 371 00:23:35.188 --> 00:23:37.358 If people would bother to use it, 372 00:23:37.358 --> 00:23:40.771 actually filed reports on the hatred they find online. 373 00:23:44.668 --> 00:23:47.668 - No, up there. - There it is. 374 00:23:48.868 --> 00:23:49.988 - Yeah. 375 00:23:50.050 --> 00:23:54.347 - Was that it? - No, there were three more. 376 00:24:09.221 --> 00:24:12.338 And that's effectively the hundred-something... 377 00:24:12.363 --> 00:24:14.165 How many are there? 378 00:24:14.331 --> 00:24:18.571 This isn't everything. 379 00:24:18.666 --> 00:24:23.963 But it's most of those handled by the case workers. 380 00:24:24.385 --> 00:24:26.283 I see. 381 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:41.618 - I had hoped that I could find a firm, 382 00:24:41.618 --> 00:24:43.291 German way to censor hate. 383 00:24:47.628 --> 00:24:49.708 But the law seems half-assed, 384 00:24:49.708 --> 00:24:51.058 it makes me sad. 385 00:24:51.058 --> 00:24:54.301 All the hard work they're putting into it, for what? 386 00:24:56.318 --> 00:24:58.488 I think this field trip of mine, 387 00:24:58.488 --> 00:25:00.028 won't make much sense 388 00:25:00.028 --> 00:25:02.928 unless I can dig up examples of censorship, 389 00:25:02.928 --> 00:25:04.561 that actually seems to do good. 390 00:25:08.378 --> 00:25:10.908 The obvious start is to find someone 391 00:25:10.908 --> 00:25:13.041 who simply removes the bad stuff. 392 00:26:04.930 --> 00:26:05.763 - Shit! 393 00:26:05.763 --> 00:26:06.928 What the fuck was that? 394 00:26:06.928 --> 00:26:08.948 - Put your gun on the fucking floor! 395 00:26:08.948 --> 00:26:09.781 It's not my fault! 396 00:26:09.781 --> 00:26:11.378 You're the driving like a fucking dick... 397 00:26:11.378 --> 00:26:13.998 - Oh so you steady yourself on the trigger. 398 00:26:13.998 --> 00:26:14.928 You see those? 399 00:26:14.928 --> 00:26:16.298 Those are the OSHA handles, 400 00:26:16.298 --> 00:26:17.528 that's what they're there for. 401 00:26:17.528 --> 00:26:18.361 - Shut up! 402 00:26:18.361 --> 00:26:19.828 - Cary me over there and put me in the tub. 403 00:26:19.828 --> 00:26:21.138 - Yeah, can't do that. 404 00:26:21.138 --> 00:26:22.018 - What do you mean by can't do that? 405 00:26:22.018 --> 00:26:22.978 - Physically, I can do that, 406 00:26:22.978 --> 00:26:26.108 but I'm not gonna carry your naked ass to the tub. 407 00:26:26.108 --> 00:26:27.525 - There was no way-- 408 00:26:27.525 --> 00:26:30.198 - Everyone's eating. - No, it's impossible. 409 00:26:30.198 --> 00:26:31.468 Everyone is not eating everyone's ass. 410 00:26:31.468 --> 00:26:32.703 - Everyone is not eating everyone's ass. 411 00:26:32.703 --> 00:26:33.536 They are. - Oh fuck. 412 00:26:37.688 --> 00:26:38.521 Oh, ho, 413 00:26:40.080 --> 00:26:41.203 oh my god! 414 00:26:53.885 --> 00:26:57.298 - So basically all the f-words are allowed. 415 00:26:57.298 --> 00:26:59.378 But then there are like you know visuals 416 00:26:59.378 --> 00:27:02.888 where they have focused on the girl's private parts. 417 00:27:02.888 --> 00:27:05.438 So I think those also have to be kind of you know. 418 00:27:05.438 --> 00:27:06.628 - Yeah. - There is a word, 419 00:27:06.628 --> 00:27:08.017 motherfucker, that should go. 420 00:27:08.017 --> 00:27:08.850 - Yeah that can go. 421 00:27:08.850 --> 00:27:10.759 - It has to be universally cut, yeah, yeah. 422 00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:13.005 - Then pussy, cunt and? - Dick. 423 00:27:13.005 --> 00:27:15.948 - And asshole? - And asshole is allowed. 424 00:27:15.948 --> 00:27:17.768 - What else, anything else? 425 00:27:17.768 --> 00:27:19.438 - There's one dialogue which talks about 426 00:27:19.438 --> 00:27:21.436 you know eating the ass and you know. 427 00:27:21.436 --> 00:27:24.585 - That's entire scene. - That entire scene should. 428 00:27:24.585 --> 00:27:26.175 - And it has no relevance to the thing going on. 429 00:27:26.175 --> 00:27:28.158 Because it's not leading into it. 430 00:27:28.158 --> 00:27:31.238 - The ass thing, in the tights, isn't this? 431 00:27:31.238 --> 00:27:34.958 His whole sort of that's his whole focus, 432 00:27:34.958 --> 00:27:36.725 that's what he talks about all the time. 433 00:27:36.725 --> 00:27:38.613 What happens if you take out the scene? 434 00:27:38.613 --> 00:27:40.488 - Close-ups have to be where... 435 00:27:40.488 --> 00:27:42.188 It is, I think-- 436 00:27:42.188 --> 00:27:43.975 - Now, so it is like this. 437 00:27:43.975 --> 00:27:45.475 We are allowing it in other places. 438 00:27:45.475 --> 00:27:47.281 Except that parking lot scene. 439 00:27:48.598 --> 00:27:49.621 We are basically saying, 440 00:27:49.621 --> 00:27:53.275 that you can keep that focus on the ass part is okay, 441 00:27:53.275 --> 00:27:55.198 but the crotch part, that will have to let go. 442 00:27:55.198 --> 00:27:56.261 - Yeah. 443 00:27:59.868 --> 00:28:00.701 - How are you? - I'm fine. 444 00:28:00.701 --> 00:28:04.268 - We're allowing all users with word fucking, 445 00:28:04.268 --> 00:28:05.924 but motherfucker will not be allowed. 446 00:28:05.924 --> 00:28:08.175 Okay, you'll have to take care of it. 447 00:28:08.175 --> 00:28:10.298 - Okay. - Next word is cunt. 448 00:28:10.298 --> 00:28:11.188 Another word dick. 449 00:28:11.188 --> 00:28:12.898 Dick after a long deliberation 450 00:28:12.898 --> 00:28:14.408 we thought dick will be allowed okay? 451 00:28:14.408 --> 00:28:19.408 Then comes yeah, where this guy Baker barges into a room 452 00:28:19.588 --> 00:28:23.078 where these the two black guys are having sex and all that. 453 00:28:23.078 --> 00:28:26.358 So that scene will have to be deleted. 454 00:28:26.358 --> 00:28:28.228 This is what we had to say. 455 00:28:28.228 --> 00:28:30.951 You tell me if you have anything else. 456 00:28:30.951 --> 00:28:34.308 - That's lot of deletion. 457 00:28:34.308 --> 00:28:36.908 - Yeah a lot of deletion, but this is what you know 458 00:28:36.908 --> 00:28:39.227 as per the guidelines we follow you know that. 459 00:28:39.227 --> 00:28:40.632 Okay, thank you. 460 00:28:44.808 --> 00:28:45.775 - It's a very complex country, 461 00:28:45.775 --> 00:28:47.308 it's a heterogeneous country, 462 00:28:47.308 --> 00:28:48.141 the cultures are different, 463 00:28:48.141 --> 00:28:50.505 the norms are different from place to place. 464 00:28:50.505 --> 00:28:53.868 So if the film, this film was played in some other, 465 00:28:53.868 --> 00:28:56.575 say, small town or some other place, 466 00:28:56.575 --> 00:28:59.258 it can create an uncomfortable situation 467 00:28:59.258 --> 00:29:00.778 for a family viewing. 468 00:29:00.778 --> 00:29:02.778 You know some people may not really like it. 469 00:29:02.778 --> 00:29:05.208 We are not used to public display of affection at all. 470 00:29:05.208 --> 00:29:06.960 You would not see couples 471 00:29:06.985 --> 00:29:08.668 kissing each other in the streets. 472 00:29:08.668 --> 00:29:09.776 - Really? - Never. 473 00:29:20.565 --> 00:29:24.916 - Afternoon, glass or bottle? - Just pour it into glasses. 474 00:29:25.080 --> 00:29:28.018 I will just put this away. 475 00:29:28.158 --> 00:29:29.988 - She supports you. 476 00:29:29.988 --> 00:29:32.238 She doesn't say that you're too strict. 477 00:29:33.398 --> 00:29:36.562 The films that should be have gone through. 478 00:29:36.562 --> 00:29:37.738 - No, 479 00:29:37.738 --> 00:29:40.098 in fact, she's a more conservative than me. 480 00:29:40.098 --> 00:29:42.158 - Really? - Yeah, actually, yes. 481 00:29:42.158 --> 00:29:43.088 - Can start with this? 482 00:29:43.088 --> 00:29:43.945 It's getting cold. 483 00:29:43.945 --> 00:29:46.188 - Oh, thank you so much. 484 00:29:46.188 --> 00:29:47.688 He was saying that you are actually 485 00:29:47.688 --> 00:29:49.478 more conservative than him. 486 00:29:49.478 --> 00:29:54.178 So you asked if he was to give a permit for a film 487 00:29:54.178 --> 00:29:57.548 that you found was too liberally permitted, 488 00:29:57.548 --> 00:29:59.188 that you would complain to him? 489 00:29:59.188 --> 00:30:00.021 - Yes, I would. 490 00:30:00.021 --> 00:30:01.008 - Yeah. - Certainly. 491 00:30:01.008 --> 00:30:03.778 - What kind of things is it that you don't like? 492 00:30:03.778 --> 00:30:05.628 - Anything that I feel, 493 00:30:05.628 --> 00:30:09.298 which is not supposed to be seen with a family 494 00:30:09.298 --> 00:30:10.287 in any respect, 495 00:30:10.287 --> 00:30:14.028 whether it be violence, vulgarity anything by girl. 496 00:30:14.028 --> 00:30:16.508 - So what I'm saying if the context of the film 497 00:30:17.828 --> 00:30:19.640 really needed that particular scene, 498 00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:23.058 it was required from the context and the flow the story 499 00:30:23.058 --> 00:30:26.018 then to cut it would be not right, 500 00:30:26.018 --> 00:30:27.277 criminal, in fact. 501 00:30:27.277 --> 00:30:30.448 But if it is not required then who's affected? 502 00:30:30.448 --> 00:30:32.618 You're trying to just gain more audience 503 00:30:32.618 --> 00:30:35.662 by inserting a scene which would be controversial. 504 00:30:47.108 --> 00:30:49.108 - Something happens with my sympathies, 505 00:30:49.108 --> 00:30:50.791 when I'm invited home for tea. 506 00:30:52.228 --> 00:30:54.991 Like forgetting about the criticism of the film board. 507 00:30:56.338 --> 00:30:58.318 That it is this extended claw 508 00:30:58.318 --> 00:31:01.098 of the right-wing Hindu nationalist government 509 00:31:01.098 --> 00:31:03.478 censoring anything too liberal, 510 00:31:03.478 --> 00:31:06.121 too Muslim, too Un-Hindu. 511 00:31:08.353 --> 00:31:09.858 The phones are running hot here. 512 00:31:11.238 --> 00:31:16.018 But mostly it seems, by folks wanting more censorship. 513 00:31:16.018 --> 00:31:19.295 That this or that film is offending their Hindu god. 514 00:31:22.486 --> 00:31:24.237 - Faster. - Hi? 515 00:31:24.237 --> 00:31:26.009 - How are you? 516 00:31:26.009 --> 00:31:27.535 Hello? 517 00:31:27.535 --> 00:31:29.882 - Good morning. - Good morning. 518 00:31:29.882 --> 00:31:32.353 - Good morning? - Good morning. 519 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:38.240 Which film is it? 520 00:31:38.252 --> 00:31:40.170 - "Lipstick Under My Burkha." 521 00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:42.337 - "Under my Burkha"? - Yeah. 522 00:31:44.967 --> 00:31:46.720 She could just put it on her burkha, 523 00:31:46.745 --> 00:31:49.779 and it would not be a problem. 524 00:32:11.308 --> 00:32:15.977 If you betray me, I'll put this video on Facebook. 525 00:32:33.639 --> 00:32:37.451 Mark this entire sequence. 526 00:32:41.022 --> 00:32:43.644 - How do you think this this will go? 527 00:32:43.644 --> 00:32:45.987 - Oh, not well at all. 528 00:32:45.987 --> 00:32:48.548 I feel that films that are quite misogynistic 529 00:32:48.548 --> 00:32:50.088 in which we objectify women 530 00:32:50.088 --> 00:32:52.358 where the camera just keeps me opened on the woman's body, 531 00:32:52.358 --> 00:32:54.878 and she keeps dancing the singular item song, 532 00:32:54.878 --> 00:32:57.278 the name itself is pretty offensive. 533 00:32:57.278 --> 00:33:01.198 So nothing happens, to that content. 534 00:33:01.198 --> 00:33:02.968 That's freely played on television, 535 00:33:02.968 --> 00:33:05.451 and little girls are watching it and dancing on it, 536 00:33:07.038 --> 00:33:11.478 internalising the whole objectification of women. 537 00:33:11.478 --> 00:33:12.828 But the moment you present 538 00:33:12.828 --> 00:33:14.321 an alternative point of view, 539 00:33:15.508 --> 00:33:17.358 an alternative point of view 540 00:33:17.358 --> 00:33:19.168 which is a more feministic point of view, 541 00:33:19.168 --> 00:33:20.268 it's very problematic. 542 00:33:23.023 --> 00:33:24.265 What is it? 543 00:33:24.937 --> 00:33:27.140 The whole theme is... 544 00:33:28.805 --> 00:33:30.609 Say it in Hindi. 545 00:33:32.437 --> 00:33:35.116 First of all, the whole theme is very adult. 546 00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:36.690 - All the love-making scenes 547 00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:39.241 and the visuals are this way. 548 00:33:39.499 --> 00:33:42.445 Bad languages, but no smoking scenes. 549 00:33:42.470 --> 00:33:44.059 That's why there's no disclaimer. 550 00:33:44.080 --> 00:33:46.577 What's the picture? 551 00:33:46.968 --> 00:33:48.726 Judging from the whole concept, 552 00:33:48.751 --> 00:33:52.828 it looks like the movie should be refused. 553 00:33:53.015 --> 00:33:54.980 - Raju bhai, what about you? 554 00:33:54.980 --> 00:33:56.249 - Refuse. 555 00:33:56.520 --> 00:33:58.686 - Same. - I agree. 556 00:33:58.739 --> 00:34:01.030 - Refuse. - Okay, and what about you? 557 00:34:01.428 --> 00:34:03.908 The same, sir. 558 00:34:04.421 --> 00:34:05.895 - What do you think? 559 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:07.701 - Refuse, refuse. 560 00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.873 - What do you say? 561 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.615 I think we should refuse. 562 00:34:12.640 --> 00:34:15.264 We'd have to cut so much that the whole theme would change. 563 00:34:15.428 --> 00:34:19.974 - Then let's drop it. What about you? 564 00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:22.500 - The same sir. Refuse. 565 00:34:22.720 --> 00:34:26.156 The burkha is a reality in today's society. 566 00:34:26.181 --> 00:34:28.210 Regardless of community, 567 00:34:28.405 --> 00:34:32.249 anyone can go into a mall, change and come out again. 568 00:34:32.274 --> 00:34:34.499 That is a fact. 569 00:34:34.725 --> 00:34:36.410 The problem is the way the film is told. 570 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.123 - Yeah, exactly. 571 00:34:38.342 --> 00:34:39.942 - Okay, guys. Fetch her. 572 00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.845 - This is Mr. Nihalani. - Yes. 573 00:34:51.057 --> 00:34:55.697 You are the director? We unanimously refuse the film. 574 00:34:58.093 --> 00:34:59.850 - You can go to the tribunal. 575 00:34:59.850 --> 00:35:01.893 Whatever suits you. 576 00:35:03.111 --> 00:35:05.111 - Sure. Great, thanks. 577 00:35:08.240 --> 00:35:09.840 - Excuse me miss. 578 00:35:09.852 --> 00:35:12.353 Do you have any comments at all? 579 00:35:12.353 --> 00:35:16.228 - No, there's no space for any deliberation or anything 580 00:35:16.228 --> 00:35:18.078 since they were a unanimous decision 581 00:35:18.078 --> 00:35:19.768 and it's not unlike, 582 00:35:19.768 --> 00:35:21.268 so I suggested that 583 00:35:21.268 --> 00:35:24.208 it's better we go straight to the tribunal. 584 00:35:24.208 --> 00:35:26.216 Yeah, all right thanks. 585 00:35:30.038 --> 00:35:30.978 - I can understand 586 00:35:30.978 --> 00:35:32.931 that the film might provoke Indians. 587 00:35:34.168 --> 00:35:37.708 It wasn't encouraging violence or smoking, 588 00:35:37.708 --> 00:35:39.561 but the sex, the obscenity, 589 00:35:41.408 --> 00:35:44.095 I felt the census could have a point. 590 00:35:47.748 --> 00:35:50.871 You seem to be a very highly moralled man? 591 00:35:51.752 --> 00:35:54.380 - I believe when you are, you have a family, 592 00:35:54.821 --> 00:35:57.578 you have to be a completely part of your family, 593 00:35:57.578 --> 00:36:00.651 and your society also is your family. 594 00:36:02.108 --> 00:36:05.508 You are to committed with that society also, 595 00:36:05.508 --> 00:36:06.981 what is your responsibility? 596 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:13.160 Don't you think so? 597 00:36:13.168 --> 00:36:14.388 - I think so as well. 598 00:36:14.388 --> 00:36:16.211 But at the same time I'm, 599 00:36:17.818 --> 00:36:20.523 I'm very much for the freedom of expression 600 00:36:20.523 --> 00:36:25.523 and for possibilities to discuss any issue in the film. 601 00:36:25.887 --> 00:36:30.887 - Freedom of expression is definitely required, 602 00:36:30.988 --> 00:36:34.098 but you have to keep everything in your mind, 603 00:36:34.098 --> 00:36:38.046 what totality you are creating, 604 00:36:38.788 --> 00:36:42.468 and what you are creating the impact of the movie. 605 00:36:42.468 --> 00:36:46.988 If you want to touch the real incidents 606 00:36:46.988 --> 00:36:48.998 that movie is very limited, 607 00:36:48.998 --> 00:36:52.438 is not a commercial cinema, it's not a cinema. 608 00:36:52.438 --> 00:36:56.318 Then you have to go on a different platform 609 00:36:56.318 --> 00:36:59.628 to show your freedom of expression, 610 00:36:59.628 --> 00:37:03.928 which is required, different kind of rating system. 611 00:37:03.928 --> 00:37:05.961 And if you see vulgarity, obscenity, 612 00:37:07.308 --> 00:37:09.718 or creating a problem for the society 613 00:37:09.718 --> 00:37:11.355 is that freedom of expression? 614 00:37:11.355 --> 00:37:13.838 And then I don't think it is being 615 00:37:15.200 --> 00:37:17.400 perfect for the Indian audience. 616 00:37:20.650 --> 00:37:22.697 - So it was refused by the examining committee 617 00:37:22.697 --> 00:37:27.291 and revising committee? - Unanimously refused. 618 00:37:27.291 --> 00:37:30.978 - And in fact, even though there were five lady members, 619 00:37:30.978 --> 00:37:33.281 so that makes it even more... 620 00:37:36.211 --> 00:37:37.414 - If you had to guess, 621 00:37:37.414 --> 00:37:39.544 how many signatures have you done? 622 00:37:39.544 --> 00:37:44.184 - Last year 10,000, 12,500. 623 00:37:54.959 --> 00:37:57.708 - You're after the ratings. I get that. 624 00:37:57.724 --> 00:37:59.693 - Mr Nihalani, the question is very simple... 625 00:37:59.842 --> 00:38:02.520 If all you care about is ratings, 626 00:38:02.545 --> 00:38:05.386 then just keep showing whatever 627 00:38:05.459 --> 00:38:07.373 is available on social media, 628 00:38:07.398 --> 00:38:10.482 and then wives can divorce their husbands. 629 00:38:10.671 --> 00:38:14.444 Mr Nihlani, the question is very simple... 630 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.268 - "Lipstick Under My Burkha" is a clear example 631 00:38:18.354 --> 00:38:22.172 of curtailing the freedom of speech and expression. 632 00:38:22.172 --> 00:38:25.425 A member of Congress Party is a quoted to saying, 633 00:38:25.425 --> 00:38:26.405 "And I thought the government 634 00:38:26.405 --> 00:38:28.955 "was moving away from censorship to certification." 635 00:38:28.955 --> 00:38:31.328 - Listen please, please listen. 636 00:38:31.328 --> 00:38:32.233 The freedom of speech 637 00:38:32.233 --> 00:38:36.428 is one of the holiest thing of the constitution. 638 00:38:36.428 --> 00:38:38.168 We always uphold it. 639 00:38:38.168 --> 00:38:40.988 Please understand that we have to follow the Act 640 00:38:40.988 --> 00:38:43.658 and the rules and the guidelines which are there before us. 641 00:38:43.658 --> 00:38:46.025 CBFC has follow the law completely. 642 00:38:53.508 --> 00:38:55.478 - Do you think you would have been the villain 643 00:38:55.478 --> 00:38:57.711 or the hero in the Bollywood film? 644 00:38:58.868 --> 00:38:59.775 - You decide. 645 00:39:01.848 --> 00:39:04.048 - I guess I got a bit carried away, 646 00:39:04.048 --> 00:39:06.528 the censors being so friendly and all. 647 00:39:06.528 --> 00:39:08.418 So I might have ended up showing 648 00:39:08.418 --> 00:39:10.658 a slightly unfair selection of clips 649 00:39:10.658 --> 00:39:12.355 from "Lipstick Under My Burkha." 650 00:39:13.388 --> 00:39:15.798 I was just so happy to find censorship 651 00:39:15.798 --> 00:39:17.718 that seemed to make sense. 652 00:39:17.718 --> 00:39:19.698 But it doesn't, does it? 653 00:39:19.698 --> 00:39:21.908 They silence liberal voices, 654 00:39:21.908 --> 00:39:24.968 but don't do much with a raving nationalism. 655 00:39:24.968 --> 00:39:26.378 And their work sure don't seem 656 00:39:26.378 --> 00:39:28.908 to heal the polarisation in the country. 657 00:39:28.908 --> 00:39:31.688 So either the censor's objective is off, 658 00:39:31.688 --> 00:39:33.585 or they don't take it far enough. 659 00:39:54.308 --> 00:39:55.698 I have this feeling, 660 00:39:55.698 --> 00:39:57.641 I should try to behave myself in Iran. 661 00:40:01.628 --> 00:40:04.618 With a gentleness and warmth people show me, 662 00:40:04.618 --> 00:40:06.971 I don't want to come across as uncultivated. 663 00:40:26.374 --> 00:40:29.103 - Professor Mohammad Mehdi Zahedi. 664 00:40:29.103 --> 00:40:29.936 - Mehdi Zahedi. 665 00:40:29.936 --> 00:40:32.595 - Is the head of the Higher Education Committee 666 00:40:32.595 --> 00:40:34.246 of the Parliament now. - Mmm. 667 00:40:34.246 --> 00:40:37.050 - He's the ex-minister of higher education. 668 00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:37.883 - Yeah. 669 00:40:37.883 --> 00:40:41.108 - And he's a member of the High Council of the Culture-- 670 00:40:41.108 --> 00:40:45.858 - These consist three different committees, five committees. 671 00:40:45.858 --> 00:40:48.251 - I see. - I'm the head of all this. 672 00:40:49.138 --> 00:40:50.671 - So much responsibility. 673 00:40:52.878 --> 00:40:54.798 The viewers in the West, 674 00:40:54.798 --> 00:40:56.258 they are probably wondering 675 00:40:56.258 --> 00:40:59.848 what direction Iran will take in this culture. 676 00:40:59.848 --> 00:41:02.688 If it will go for both what we in the West 677 00:41:02.688 --> 00:41:04.588 will call for a more open, 678 00:41:04.588 --> 00:41:07.298 or if it will continue on the line of having 679 00:41:07.298 --> 00:41:11.748 a regulation based on the Islamic contract? 680 00:41:11.998 --> 00:41:14.310 This question of yours really upset me. 681 00:41:14.335 --> 00:41:16.088 Translate that first! 682 00:41:16.136 --> 00:41:19.508 - He say, "I got upset from this question." 683 00:41:19.508 --> 00:41:20.921 - I see, I'm sorry. 684 00:41:21.740 --> 00:41:25.280 It is because you do not understand Islam, 685 00:41:25.305 --> 00:41:27.924 and think Islam is against civil liberties. 686 00:41:28.068 --> 00:41:31.000 We believe that the religion brought about 687 00:41:31.025 --> 00:41:34.332 by our prophet 14000 years ago, 688 00:41:34.568 --> 00:41:38.083 is a comprehensive and complete religion. 689 00:41:38.240 --> 00:41:44.966 Our Quran, which is the miracle of the religion of Islam, 690 00:41:45.178 --> 00:41:47.240 applies to all centuries. 691 00:41:47.265 --> 00:41:52.498 And its grace is directed at all of humanity. 692 00:41:52.740 --> 00:41:56.185 Is that what you mean by freedom, sexual corruption? 693 00:41:56.210 --> 00:41:59.295 Then we openly say that we are against it. 694 00:41:59.412 --> 00:42:02.758 - If you mean from freedom that you know, 695 00:42:02.758 --> 00:42:04.558 is sexual free relation, 696 00:42:04.558 --> 00:42:06.723 we say from no yes, we are against. 697 00:42:06.723 --> 00:42:08.238 - Mmm. 698 00:42:08.238 --> 00:42:09.175 So that means-- 699 00:42:09.240 --> 00:42:11.840 We believe in human ethics and dignity. 700 00:42:12.330 --> 00:42:13.785 - We believe in the morality 701 00:42:13.785 --> 00:42:16.348 and the behaviour of human beings. 702 00:42:16.348 --> 00:42:17.181 - Yeah. 703 00:42:17.181 --> 00:42:19.908 And this should also be reflected in the books 704 00:42:19.908 --> 00:42:21.158 that are being published. 705 00:42:21.158 --> 00:42:23.708 - You should be careful about your question! 706 00:42:23.708 --> 00:42:25.268 - Yeah, I will. 707 00:42:26.298 --> 00:42:29.188 And it's no, it's not meant to offend in any way. 708 00:42:29.188 --> 00:42:30.409 - No problem. - Yeah, yeah. 709 00:42:30.409 --> 00:42:32.008 - Okay, thank you sir. 710 00:42:32.008 --> 00:42:33.198 - Thank you so much. 711 00:42:33.198 --> 00:42:34.031 Thank you. 712 00:42:36.298 --> 00:42:38.948 I came to think of Professor Darnton, 713 00:42:38.948 --> 00:42:41.658 something he tried to get into my head at Harvard. 714 00:42:41.658 --> 00:42:43.898 - I would recommend, 715 00:42:43.898 --> 00:42:47.228 as you go around interviewing people responsible 716 00:42:47.228 --> 00:42:50.488 for filtering communication, 717 00:42:50.488 --> 00:42:52.411 that you try to, 718 00:42:53.798 --> 00:42:57.168 not exactly identify with them, 719 00:42:57.168 --> 00:43:00.378 but to listen to them, to understand them. 720 00:43:00.378 --> 00:43:04.111 And by doing this, I think it might be possible-- 721 00:43:13.488 --> 00:43:16.338 - It's true that I'm not so intelligent on Iran. 722 00:43:17.828 --> 00:43:20.478 I talked to the Office for Foreign Press. 723 00:43:20.478 --> 00:43:22.178 They seem to be the ones deciding 724 00:43:22.178 --> 00:43:23.871 what we can film or not anyway. 725 00:43:25.828 --> 00:43:28.311 They offered me to go to the Holy Defence Museum. 726 00:43:38.468 --> 00:43:39.301 It's annoying, 727 00:43:39.301 --> 00:43:41.878 I couldn't get any substantial answers 728 00:43:41.878 --> 00:43:43.591 from the political hardliners. 729 00:43:44.688 --> 00:43:46.578 Their idea for why there hasn't been 730 00:43:46.578 --> 00:43:48.898 another bloody revolution in Iran. 731 00:43:48.898 --> 00:43:53.628 A country so split politically, gloomy priests-rule and all. 732 00:43:53.628 --> 00:43:55.811 Something big should have happened by now. 733 00:44:00.108 --> 00:44:02.588 I've been giving it some thought. 734 00:44:02.588 --> 00:44:06.381 What if the Iranian state have found a cunning solution? 735 00:44:13.748 --> 00:44:16.408 What if you can fight polarisation, 736 00:44:16.408 --> 00:44:18.391 without the direct censorship mess? 737 00:44:20.068 --> 00:44:21.918 What if you could just get to people 738 00:44:21.918 --> 00:44:24.285 to censor themselves instead? 739 00:44:36.178 --> 00:44:39.507 It's better not to show it. 740 00:44:39.532 --> 00:44:42.171 It's better that we don't show it. 741 00:44:45.358 --> 00:44:48.465 - I don't know what kind of colleagues we are? 742 00:44:49.908 --> 00:44:51.068 We are not, 743 00:44:51.068 --> 00:44:55.074 we don't have same kind of point of view, I think. 744 00:44:55.074 --> 00:44:56.352 - You have a different point of view? 745 00:44:56.352 --> 00:44:57.308 - Yeah , - You have a different 746 00:44:57.308 --> 00:44:58.788 voice in your head?. - Yeah, of course. 747 00:44:58.788 --> 00:45:01.205 - Your voice is a bit stricter than his. 748 00:45:01.205 --> 00:45:02.038 - Yeah it is. 749 00:45:02.038 --> 00:45:04.738 - You know that's, I do not. 750 00:45:04.738 --> 00:45:06.618 I think, this is our country. 751 00:45:06.618 --> 00:45:07.702 - Ah. 752 00:45:07.702 --> 00:45:10.298 - So all of us, 753 00:45:10.298 --> 00:45:14.938 have a duty to try to reach 754 00:45:14.938 --> 00:45:16.998 to get to a better situation 755 00:45:16.998 --> 00:45:20.178 for whole people, for whole country. 756 00:45:20.178 --> 00:45:21.011 - And me either, 757 00:45:21.011 --> 00:45:22.171 it doesn't differ from what I think. 758 00:45:22.171 --> 00:45:23.898 - No, no-- - Could you explain to me 759 00:45:23.898 --> 00:45:25.678 what is it that you are afraid of? 760 00:45:25.678 --> 00:45:27.368 If you step over the line? 761 00:45:27.368 --> 00:45:28.618 What could happen to you? 762 00:45:29.594 --> 00:45:31.518 - Because actually, you know, 763 00:45:31.518 --> 00:45:36.518 the people are looking some guarantee, 764 00:45:38.238 --> 00:45:40.778 to continue to be able their jobs. 765 00:45:40.778 --> 00:45:41.898 And they think, 766 00:45:41.898 --> 00:45:46.898 if they criticise the government, so they will lose. 767 00:45:47.448 --> 00:45:49.818 You know, that opportunity. 768 00:45:49.818 --> 00:45:51.098 - Mm-hm. - I don't believe that. 769 00:45:51.098 --> 00:45:54.598 - I think when there are some rules, 770 00:45:54.598 --> 00:45:56.938 then it should be clarified. 771 00:45:56.938 --> 00:46:01.938 What kind of words should be omitted from our writings? 772 00:46:02.428 --> 00:46:04.041 And we should know, 773 00:46:05.408 --> 00:46:07.618 what can hurt people here? 774 00:46:07.618 --> 00:46:11.328 Because they believe, and I believe too. 775 00:46:11.328 --> 00:46:12.841 Something can be, 776 00:46:13.788 --> 00:46:17.268 it can be meaningful in other countries in other cultures, 777 00:46:17.268 --> 00:46:19.288 but here it can hurt. 778 00:46:19.288 --> 00:46:20.927 Show me in the book, what was that? 779 00:46:20.927 --> 00:46:25.718 - Actually the, I can't find you know the name, 780 00:46:25.718 --> 00:46:27.658 but I think we deleted it. 781 00:46:27.658 --> 00:46:29.772 - Yeah, we deleted. - The name of the city. 782 00:46:29.772 --> 00:46:31.569 - Why was that? 783 00:46:31.569 --> 00:46:35.478 - It is the Vatican kind of city of Iran. 784 00:46:35.478 --> 00:46:36.809 - Qom. 785 00:46:36.809 --> 00:46:37.642 - Holy city? 786 00:46:37.642 --> 00:46:39.028 - Holy city. - Yes. 787 00:46:39.028 --> 00:46:40.528 - So this was a fiction book 788 00:46:40.528 --> 00:46:43.388 about a girl living her life-- 789 00:46:43.388 --> 00:46:44.338 - No. - Experienced some problems? 790 00:46:44.338 --> 00:46:47.458 - She was from there and she married, 791 00:46:47.458 --> 00:46:49.713 then she was divorced, 792 00:46:49.713 --> 00:46:54.178 and she was trying to have another relation 793 00:46:55.048 --> 00:46:57.138 and she was from Qom. 794 00:46:58.131 --> 00:46:59.928 - And why was it problematic 795 00:46:59.928 --> 00:47:01.318 that she was from Qom? 796 00:47:01.318 --> 00:47:04.035 - She was diverse, I think maybe. 797 00:47:04.035 --> 00:47:05.438 - So a person from Qom-- 798 00:47:05.438 --> 00:47:08.798 - And she was travelling around alone. 799 00:47:08.798 --> 00:47:10.018 That's not good maybe. 800 00:47:10.018 --> 00:47:15.575 - Because that's all the high clergies are in Qom. 801 00:47:15.908 --> 00:47:19.921 So there are several religious school, 802 00:47:20.788 --> 00:47:23.804 so many students. 803 00:47:23.804 --> 00:47:27.238 And so because of those issues, 804 00:47:27.238 --> 00:47:30.158 they preferred to delete this one. 805 00:47:30.158 --> 00:47:32.408 - So if you have to go to-- 806 00:47:32.408 --> 00:47:33.241 - Hanging out 807 00:47:33.241 --> 00:47:35.828 with Iranian intellectuals is something. 808 00:47:35.828 --> 00:47:38.851 They've got a hell of a history of sophisticated writing. 809 00:47:39.506 --> 00:47:43.546 My poetry is my poetry. My personal poetry. 810 00:47:45.298 --> 00:47:46.428 They took me to the launch 811 00:47:46.428 --> 00:47:49.198 of an avant-garde poetry magazine, 812 00:47:49.198 --> 00:47:50.771 and they seemed stimulated. 813 00:47:52.648 --> 00:47:54.338 It caves my head in to think 814 00:47:54.338 --> 00:47:56.928 that these guys have to go about guessing 815 00:47:56.928 --> 00:47:59.578 what they should remove from the books, 816 00:47:59.578 --> 00:48:02.628 just because the religious leaders won't tell them 817 00:48:02.628 --> 00:48:05.178 what exactly isn't allowed. 818 00:48:24.012 --> 00:48:25.922 - Okay, how much do you need? 819 00:48:25.922 --> 00:48:27.568 What are you going to buy? 820 00:48:27.568 --> 00:48:29.568 - A box of confectionery confectionery for him. 821 00:48:29.568 --> 00:48:31.535 - Confectionery for the Ayatollah. 822 00:48:32.373 --> 00:48:34.373 - Okay. - That's alright. 823 00:48:35.310 --> 00:48:36.143 Is that usual 824 00:48:36.143 --> 00:48:38.560 to give the Ayatollah confectionary? 825 00:48:38.560 --> 00:48:41.931 - No, but it's good. - It's a good thing. 826 00:48:44.988 --> 00:48:48.391 - Let's go. 827 00:48:57.343 --> 00:49:02.787 To the left, this alley...To the right. 828 00:49:06.240 --> 00:49:10.000 14th Alley was here before. Now it's a bit father. 829 00:49:10.025 --> 00:49:12.709 14th Alley, you said? 830 00:49:13.161 --> 00:49:14.804 - I mean, are we running a bit late? 831 00:49:14.804 --> 00:49:15.637 - No no. 832 00:49:15.637 --> 00:49:18.272 It's just him driving like a maniac. 833 00:49:18.272 --> 00:49:19.748 - This is it. - This is it? 834 00:49:19.748 --> 00:49:20.581 - Yeah. 835 00:49:30.867 --> 00:49:34.471 - I think it's better that, unlike the previous time, 836 00:49:34.471 --> 00:49:36.343 that I translate your questions in Farsi, 837 00:49:36.343 --> 00:49:38.426 but let him talk. - Yeah. 838 00:50:05.268 --> 00:50:06.778 - I kind of held back 839 00:50:06.778 --> 00:50:10.558 this little bit of information, the punishments. 840 00:50:10.558 --> 00:50:13.038 I had hoped that the state could just get the people 841 00:50:13.038 --> 00:50:14.731 to want to censor themselves, 842 00:50:16.238 --> 00:50:17.988 because it's the right thing to do. 843 00:50:19.998 --> 00:50:22.888 But I have to admit that the fear of beating 844 00:50:22.888 --> 00:50:24.531 seems very effective too. 845 00:50:26.788 --> 00:50:28.601 - He's coming. - He's coming? 846 00:50:28.601 --> 00:50:33.198 Anyway, there I was just focusing on not misconducting. 847 00:50:33.198 --> 00:50:35.965 I don't think you should disrespect an Ayatollah. 848 00:50:42.129 --> 00:50:45.009 Be welcomed. 849 00:50:45.278 --> 00:50:47.161 Grand Ayatollah, I'm Havard. 850 00:50:48.374 --> 00:50:52.647 - I am the interpreter. - I am Moslehi. 851 00:51:01.278 --> 00:51:04.098 - If you can put it hidden underneath somewhere 852 00:51:04.098 --> 00:51:04.981 around the chest. - Hidden? 853 00:51:05.011 --> 00:51:07.094 - Yes, hidden please. 854 00:51:07.160 --> 00:51:10.582 I am very sorry that I touch your clothes. I apologize. 855 00:51:10.723 --> 00:51:14.891 - I'm sorry about the inconvenience. 856 00:51:14.891 --> 00:51:16.591 - No problem. - Very good, thank you. 857 00:51:18.088 --> 00:51:20.987 - So we are in the presence of Grand Ayatollah, 858 00:51:20.987 --> 00:51:23.678 Ozma Mohammad Ali Gerami. 859 00:51:23.678 --> 00:51:25.248 One of the prominent scholars 860 00:51:25.248 --> 00:51:27.468 of Islamic seminary of Qom. 861 00:51:27.468 --> 00:51:32.468 Who is one of the very prominent and outstanding students 862 00:51:32.628 --> 00:51:34.508 of late Imam Khomeini. 863 00:51:34.508 --> 00:51:36.808 - Thank you so much for meeting us. 864 00:51:37.419 --> 00:51:44.450 I'm glad to meet you face to face. 865 00:51:44.591 --> 00:51:48.833 I am happy to have this interview. 866 00:51:48.858 --> 00:51:51.815 You may ask any question. 867 00:51:52.028 --> 00:51:54.918 - Books should be prohibited 868 00:51:55.858 --> 00:52:00.858 that are promoting and publicising moral corruption. 869 00:52:01.948 --> 00:52:06.718 And for me it's a bit difficult to understand, 870 00:52:06.718 --> 00:52:10.988 what does the moral corruption consist of? 871 00:52:10.988 --> 00:52:13.898 Where does the boundaries for moral corruption go? 872 00:52:13.898 --> 00:52:16.248 and what could be examples of moral corruption? 873 00:52:17.060 --> 00:52:23.900 Anything that distances a person from a healthy life. 874 00:52:25.160 --> 00:52:29.520 We think it is the same in the West. 875 00:52:30.248 --> 00:52:32.138 A healthy life is a life 876 00:52:32.163 --> 00:52:35.605 that does not threaten the fundamentals of family life. 877 00:52:36.138 --> 00:52:38.998 - What could be concrete examples 878 00:52:38.998 --> 00:52:40.338 perhaps from the West, 879 00:52:40.338 --> 00:52:44.958 that the Grand Ayatollah sees as corrupting 880 00:52:44.958 --> 00:52:47.521 and destroying family values? 881 00:52:47.815 --> 00:52:53.135 Homesexuality and being unfaithful to your spouse. 882 00:52:53.744 --> 00:52:55.480 Someone stand by the door, 883 00:52:55.505 --> 00:52:58.035 the men are coming for the meeting... 884 00:52:59.267 --> 00:53:02.578 - So, homosexuality should be forbidden 885 00:53:02.578 --> 00:53:06.431 because a man and another man cannot have children? 886 00:53:06.966 --> 00:53:11.278 Yes, they can't have children, 887 00:53:11.303 --> 00:53:14.669 and also because soothing human feelings 888 00:53:15.028 --> 00:53:19.731 cannot be shared between two men. 889 00:53:19.756 --> 00:53:22.012 We know that. 890 00:53:23.208 --> 00:53:28.106 Anyway, being able to have kids is important. 891 00:53:28.131 --> 00:53:29.958 Therefore, in religious scripture 892 00:53:30.122 --> 00:53:33.638 we have this statement that the best woman 893 00:53:33.663 --> 00:53:36.826 is the one who can have more babies. 894 00:53:37.154 --> 00:53:42.864 Anyway, if we want to develop, 895 00:53:43.248 --> 00:53:47.185 the primary issue is population. 896 00:53:47.466 --> 00:53:51.419 If a society is very under-populated, 897 00:53:51.560 --> 00:53:54.880 it cannot use the resources very well. 898 00:53:54.905 --> 00:53:57.263 Therefore, currently, 899 00:53:57.349 --> 00:54:02.497 the power of a country is measured by its population. 900 00:54:02.656 --> 00:54:05.738 - Wouldn't it be good if the writers 901 00:54:05.738 --> 00:54:09.188 who have deep knowledge and have researched the topics, 902 00:54:09.188 --> 00:54:12.278 for example, about homosexuality, 903 00:54:12.278 --> 00:54:16.568 that they write about this in a qualitative manner 904 00:54:16.568 --> 00:54:19.898 instead of the public perhaps going to the internet 905 00:54:19.898 --> 00:54:22.248 where you can find everything anyway 906 00:54:23.603 --> 00:54:25.861 that the state has no control of? 907 00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:33.665 If it does not lead to propagating misdeed, it is okay. 908 00:54:33.877 --> 00:54:38.884 But writing about it is propagating misdeed. 909 00:54:39.127 --> 00:54:43.600 If you distribute sexually arousing photos, 910 00:54:43.625 --> 00:54:46.151 it will not help to later say we are against it. 911 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:50.235 It will already have had adverse effects. 912 00:54:50.578 --> 00:54:54.888 - Should there be a concise list of words 913 00:54:54.888 --> 00:54:57.001 and topics that should be forbidden? 914 00:54:58.029 --> 00:55:04.005 Intellectuals inherently know what is on that list. 915 00:55:07.708 --> 00:55:08.541 - I see. 916 00:55:09.490 --> 00:55:12.700 Have they arrived? One person has arrived. 917 00:55:13.200 --> 00:55:14.950 - I see. 918 00:55:15.209 --> 00:55:17.074 Our time is up. People are waiting for me. 919 00:55:17.098 --> 00:55:17.931 - I see. 920 00:55:19.088 --> 00:55:20.061 - I see, I see. 921 00:55:38.648 --> 00:55:41.558 - I think we could learn loads from the Iranians, 922 00:55:41.558 --> 00:55:43.891 how to be mild and respectful to people. 923 00:55:45.058 --> 00:55:47.811 Perhaps I should remove my swearing from the film. 924 00:55:52.068 --> 00:55:55.088 But I had hoped that could pick up on something else though, 925 00:55:55.088 --> 00:55:58.471 how a state could just nudge people in a decent direction. 926 00:55:59.458 --> 00:56:01.398 My problem is that the Iranian state 927 00:56:01.398 --> 00:56:03.561 has a fucking severe way of nudging. 928 00:56:06.278 --> 00:56:09.478 Hell, I'm making a film about censorship. 929 00:56:09.478 --> 00:56:12.391 I haven't even dared to use the word censorship in Iran. 930 00:56:15.988 --> 00:56:19.188 So I'll go to state, that don't leave it to the people 931 00:56:19.188 --> 00:56:21.408 to figure out what should be omitted. 932 00:56:45.032 --> 00:56:46.939 I've got him here. 933 00:56:48.704 --> 00:56:50.297 - Let's go. 934 00:56:50.297 --> 00:56:51.157 Let's go. 935 00:56:51.157 --> 00:56:52.907 - We can drive. 936 00:57:26.646 --> 00:57:33.208 This is the director. His name is Havard. 937 00:57:34.029 --> 00:57:37.990 First, don't mention any names. 938 00:57:38.224 --> 00:57:40.520 Only talk about the media. 939 00:57:40.545 --> 00:57:45.037 Just drop the names. Maybe just the family name. 940 00:57:45.201 --> 00:57:47.894 And you will be blurred out. - Okay, I see. 941 00:57:47.918 --> 00:57:51.538 - If you make a story on a sensitive topic, 942 00:57:51.538 --> 00:57:54.521 what will happen when you deliver it to your editors? 943 00:57:54.585 --> 00:58:00.905 It's the same for all the main media. 944 00:58:00.983 --> 00:58:07.030 First you need a permission. 945 00:58:07.304 --> 00:58:13.788 Then it will go through several layers of censorship. 946 00:58:13.936 --> 00:58:18.366 There are too many sensitive topics. 947 00:58:18.391 --> 00:58:21.405 Traditionally there are 3 main forbidden topics: 948 00:58:21.577 --> 00:58:25.491 Ethnic issues, religion, and military. 949 00:58:25.796 --> 00:58:30.276 The topic we are talking about here is very important, 950 00:58:30.413 --> 00:58:34.397 but things like this are very secret. 951 00:58:36.905 --> 00:58:43.305 It's only the editors who really know about these things. 952 00:58:43.444 --> 00:58:47.044 Not people like us. 953 00:59:44.344 --> 00:59:46.235 Oh, hello. 954 00:59:48.478 --> 00:59:49.698 - Hello, I'm Havard. 955 00:59:49.698 --> 00:59:51.498 - Oh! - Hey, yes. 956 00:59:51.498 --> 00:59:52.741 - Nice to meet you. 957 00:59:58.195 --> 01:00:01.958 - I don't want to send these guys to labour camps, 958 01:00:01.958 --> 01:00:03.771 so I have to hide their identity. 959 01:00:05.018 --> 01:00:06.118 But with one of the highest 960 01:00:06.118 --> 01:00:08.318 ranking political editors in China, 961 01:00:08.318 --> 01:00:09.481 it's a bit different. 962 01:00:10.368 --> 01:00:12.018 He said that trying to really hide 963 01:00:12.018 --> 01:00:13.781 his identity was meaningless. 964 01:00:15.448 --> 01:00:16.698 The secret police probably 965 01:00:16.698 --> 01:00:19.358 already knew we were at his place. 966 01:00:19.358 --> 01:00:21.388 But I should blur his face a bit, 967 01:00:21.388 --> 01:00:23.288 so that what he's about to say, 968 01:00:23.288 --> 01:00:25.520 won't seem like an open provocation 969 01:00:25.545 --> 01:00:27.517 to the Communist Party. 970 01:00:30.148 --> 01:00:33.231 Have you censored yourself in your work? 971 01:00:33.712 --> 01:00:39.571 Self-censorship, yes, for sure. I do it every day. 972 01:00:39.806 --> 01:00:43.486 First of all, the top informs us 973 01:00:43.511 --> 01:00:46.673 about all the forbidden subjects, 974 01:00:46.829 --> 01:00:50.602 and we will not write about those. 975 01:00:51.025 --> 01:00:57.227 Secondly, if a reporter suggests to me 976 01:00:57.540 --> 01:01:04.940 that we go somewhere to make a story that I think is risky 977 01:01:05.228 --> 01:01:07.993 and touches on a sensitive topic, 978 01:01:08.018 --> 01:01:10.172 I will not let him do the story. 979 01:01:11.556 --> 01:01:16.072 No matter what news media outlet 980 01:01:16.097 --> 01:01:20.260 we are talking about, 981 01:01:20.384 --> 01:01:24.790 there will always be a small office inside the building, 982 01:01:24.815 --> 01:01:27.861 monitoring the content. 983 01:01:28.275 --> 01:01:34.712 These people are connected, and report directly to, 984 01:01:34.923 --> 01:01:42.923 the Publicity Department of the Communist Party of China. 985 01:02:07.727 --> 01:02:14.647 Let me show you the four main websites. 986 01:02:14.915 --> 01:02:19.336 We'll open Sohu first. 987 01:02:19.579 --> 01:02:23.727 President Xi Jiping, Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping. 988 01:02:24.048 --> 01:02:27.891 Then we open Tencent, and you see 989 01:02:27.916 --> 01:02:31.055 Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping. 990 01:02:31.407 --> 01:02:33.305 Let's try NetEase. 991 01:02:33.330 --> 01:02:36.352 Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping. 992 01:02:36.657 --> 01:02:39.497 And then Sina: Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping. 993 01:02:39.649 --> 01:02:46.203 So the top news on the front pages of the main websites 994 01:02:46.446 --> 01:02:51.336 are all dictated by the Central Committee. 995 01:02:51.465 --> 01:02:53.128 - Can you show us if you for example 996 01:02:53.128 --> 01:02:58.128 now try to search for New York Times? 997 01:03:04.811 --> 01:03:08.467 Now it will search. 998 01:03:12.576 --> 01:03:16.252 - Okay. - What does it say? 999 01:03:16.307 --> 01:03:19.424 "Not able to open the website." 1000 01:03:21.698 --> 01:03:25.752 Now, let's try with a VPN. 1001 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:33.408 But this software is very unstable. 1002 01:03:34.909 --> 01:03:40.627 For instance, I can only use it for 4 to 5 minutes. 1003 01:03:48.672 --> 01:03:52.491 This is a clip about the Tiananmen incident. 1004 01:03:53.898 --> 01:03:57.203 In 1989, on the night of June 3rd, 1005 01:03:57.228 --> 01:04:01.109 People's Liberation Army tanks drove into Beijing, 1006 01:04:01.328 --> 01:04:05.804 ending the peaceful protest that had gone on for 50 days. 1007 01:04:06.123 --> 01:04:08.498 This moment, on the morning of June 5th, 1008 01:04:08.523 --> 01:04:11.613 will be an everlasting historical symbol. 1009 01:04:11.873 --> 01:04:16.553 There have been many other revolts against the government. 1010 01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:20.990 But people won't know. It's like they never happened. 1011 01:04:26.218 --> 01:04:29.118 - Perhaps I've added to the German part unfairly. 1012 01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:34.329 What if there's a bigger point with the German law? 1013 01:04:34.888 --> 01:04:38.838 To put some pressure on Facebook, Twitter, Google. 1014 01:04:38.838 --> 01:04:41.108 Make them take some responsibility, 1015 01:04:41.108 --> 01:04:44.081 for the disgusting shit that is spread on their platforms. 1016 01:04:46.888 --> 01:04:49.158 Here hardly a word of hate, 1017 01:04:49.158 --> 01:04:51.668 no fake news slips through the net, 1018 01:04:51.668 --> 01:04:54.278 the firewall and the shitloads of censors 1019 01:04:54.278 --> 01:04:56.271 their tech giants are forced to employ. 1020 01:04:57.628 --> 01:04:59.008 Unless of course, 1021 01:04:59.008 --> 01:05:02.221 the state itself wants to spread some fake news. 1022 01:05:05.133 --> 01:05:10.333 The Chinese Communist Party and the government 1023 01:05:10.516 --> 01:05:16.961 became very focused on brain-washing, 1024 01:05:17.503 --> 01:05:22.903 or "educating", the new generations. 1025 01:05:23.402 --> 01:05:30.220 All students receive the full package 1026 01:05:30.496 --> 01:05:38.056 of the "Red Education". 1027 01:05:39.941 --> 01:05:47.206 And combined with the Chinese economy developing rapidly 1028 01:05:47.300 --> 01:05:52.400 and becoming 1029 01:05:52.425 --> 01:05:55.504 very powerful, 1030 01:05:55.691 --> 01:06:03.612 patriotism grew strong in their hearts. 1031 01:06:07.198 --> 01:06:09.668 - It seems strange that you can live with a state 1032 01:06:09.668 --> 01:06:12.318 deciding what your opinions should be 1033 01:06:12.318 --> 01:06:14.121 without freaking the hell out. 1034 01:06:16.478 --> 01:06:18.828 Anyway, apparently, 1035 01:06:18.828 --> 01:06:22.248 no one had managed to get the 50 cent army on camera, 1036 01:06:22.248 --> 01:06:24.188 the so called internet commentators 1037 01:06:24.188 --> 01:06:26.578 hired by the Chinese government. 1038 01:06:26.578 --> 01:06:28.578 And said to be paid 50 cents, 1039 01:06:28.578 --> 01:06:30.168 for every nice little post, 1040 01:06:30.168 --> 01:06:32.671 helping President Xi seemed like Jesus. 1041 01:06:35.958 --> 01:06:37.678 We rigged the hidden camera, 1042 01:06:37.678 --> 01:06:39.928 made up a completely fake story, 1043 01:06:39.928 --> 01:06:42.118 and had the translator interview them, 1044 01:06:42.118 --> 01:06:43.428 so they wouldn't be scared off 1045 01:06:43.428 --> 01:06:45.131 by meeting a Westerner like me. 1046 01:06:55.670 --> 01:06:57.720 Sorry to keep you waiting. 1047 01:06:57.745 --> 01:07:00.740 We had to finish a study assignment. 1048 01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:10.739 Yesterday you mentioned "Internal reference reports" - 1049 01:07:10.764 --> 01:07:14.704 what are they? 1050 01:07:14.826 --> 01:07:17.866 They provide information to the leaders, 1051 01:07:18.131 --> 01:07:22.724 like on the Daxin fire incident, sensitive topics like that. 1052 01:07:22.857 --> 01:07:26.787 We have to send the leaders 1053 01:07:26.812 --> 01:07:30.961 a comprehensive summary of public opinions on the issues. 1054 01:07:31.178 --> 01:07:33.724 Crises like the Daxin fire disaster, 1055 01:07:33.749 --> 01:07:36.732 that affect the public opinion. 1056 01:07:36.928 --> 01:07:41.048 Or when the state ordered the skyline billboards demolished. 1057 01:07:41.287 --> 01:07:44.767 Or the RYB kindergarden sexual crimes. 1058 01:07:44.849 --> 01:07:48.872 Big stories that threaten the stablity of the whole society. 1059 01:07:49.107 --> 01:07:53.787 With these kinds of incidents, the government has to step in. 1060 01:07:53.943 --> 01:07:59.872 How do you analyse the data? From the trending searches? 1061 01:08:00.178 --> 01:08:04.069 Not really. We look at a lot of different info. 1062 01:08:04.094 --> 01:08:06.282 What overseas media writes. 1063 01:08:06.435 --> 01:08:13.155 Overseas media opinions and domestic media opinions. 1064 01:08:13.256 --> 01:08:16.974 And information about Internet users. 1065 01:08:17.217 --> 01:08:19.295 Internet users' comments and opinions? 1066 01:08:19.320 --> 01:08:20.708 Yes. 1067 01:08:20.967 --> 01:08:23.755 Did you have any specific training 1068 01:08:23.780 --> 01:08:26.170 before you started this work? 1069 01:08:26.357 --> 01:08:28.400 Not really. 1070 01:08:28.425 --> 01:08:31.692 Master students don't need any specific training, 1071 01:08:31.717 --> 01:08:32.805 just guidance. 1072 01:08:32.831 --> 01:08:37.565 - So just brief training? - Yes. 1073 01:08:37.823 --> 01:08:41.785 Just a little guidance from Wangxinban 1074 01:08:41.810 --> 01:08:45.567 (Cyberspace Administration of China). 1075 01:08:45.691 --> 01:08:49.011 You can do Internet comments and analysis 1076 01:08:49.036 --> 01:08:51.925 because it's part of what you study? 1077 01:08:52.230 --> 01:08:59.495 Since your master is news and media, you have the knowledge? 1078 01:08:59.698 --> 01:09:02.183 Are there any other master programs 1079 01:09:02.208 --> 01:09:04.855 that contribute to this work? 1080 01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:06.636 As Internet commenters? 1081 01:09:06.730 --> 01:09:11.290 For instance, science and technology, or psychology? 1082 01:09:11.488 --> 01:09:15.393 I think as long as the topic is related to your field, 1083 01:09:15.542 --> 01:09:19.822 you can comment and give your professional view. 1084 01:09:19.988 --> 01:09:26.667 Do you get paid for doing this? 1085 01:09:26.878 --> 01:09:28.565 Yes. 1086 01:09:30.240 --> 01:09:34.263 Is the compensation similar to a formal job? 1087 01:09:34.435 --> 01:09:38.412 It is similar to working for the newspaper publishers. 1088 01:09:38.437 --> 01:09:41.303 It is paid per article. 1089 01:09:41.537 --> 01:09:45.607 After your reseach and analysis, 1090 01:09:45.632 --> 01:09:49.951 do you need to make a report? 1091 01:09:50.092 --> 01:09:55.612 And hand it to the government? - Yes. 1092 01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:59.467 Is it one person or a team working on these reports? 1093 01:09:59.656 --> 01:10:05.132 The Internal Reference Report is like a journal. 1094 01:10:05.258 --> 01:10:11.351 It will summarize the public opinions, and also provide some 1095 01:10:11.508 --> 01:10:17.668 correct advice and opinions from experts and media. 1096 01:10:17.836 --> 01:10:23.289 - So it is not just the data. - Not only the data, no. 1097 01:10:23.523 --> 01:10:26.968 You must explain the whole context to the leader. 1098 01:10:27.031 --> 01:10:29.498 Who is the leader? University leader? 1099 01:10:29.727 --> 01:10:34.390 - Beijing city leaders. - Oh, city leaders. 1100 01:10:34.492 --> 01:10:39.052 Do you need to be at the Renmin university? 1101 01:10:39.203 --> 01:10:44.679 No, analysis is something you can do on your own. 1102 01:10:44.852 --> 01:10:48.039 But we go to topic selection meetings. 1103 01:10:48.064 --> 01:10:51.133 You can't focus on everything. 1104 01:10:51.227 --> 01:10:54.107 Like the meeting you went to yesterday? 1105 01:10:54.227 --> 01:10:57.352 No, that was about suggesting new members 1106 01:10:57.377 --> 01:11:00.703 for the Communist Party. 1107 01:11:00.961 --> 01:11:06.321 Suggesting members? I am not a member. What is this meeting? 1108 01:11:06.617 --> 01:11:09.774 After the first selection of candidates, 1109 01:11:09.799 --> 01:11:11.492 we have this meeting, 1110 01:11:11.578 --> 01:11:13.602 so the public can judge if 1111 01:11:13.627 --> 01:11:16.055 they're good enough to become members. 1112 01:11:16.297 --> 01:11:18.914 To judge how good a person is. 1113 01:11:18.939 --> 01:11:23.561 See if they qualify for being a member of the party. 1114 01:11:23.734 --> 01:11:26.008 Is this like the final selection round? 1115 01:11:26.033 --> 01:11:27.692 Yes, more or less. 1116 01:11:27.922 --> 01:11:31.156 - Are you party members? - No, not yet. 1117 01:11:31.375 --> 01:11:36.296 We are applicants for Party membership. 1118 01:11:36.414 --> 01:11:38.711 Over the last years, 1119 01:11:38.736 --> 01:11:45.967 the requirements have become very strict. 1120 01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:51.607 So it is getting more strict? 1121 01:11:51.849 --> 01:11:56.747 They are very strict on what your thoughts and views can be. 1122 01:12:12.088 --> 01:12:16.828 - This has led to the people in itself 1123 01:12:16.828 --> 01:12:20.158 just accepting the positive idea 1124 01:12:20.158 --> 01:12:23.138 of the Chinese state as a fact. 1125 01:12:23.138 --> 01:12:28.138 And there's less and less need of the government itself 1126 01:12:28.488 --> 01:12:30.528 to produce this type of propaganda, 1127 01:12:30.528 --> 01:12:33.131 the people will just reproduce it themselves. 1128 01:12:33.482 --> 01:12:37.771 I have to answer yes. 1129 01:12:45.228 --> 01:12:47.048 - I desperately wanted to have a chat 1130 01:12:47.048 --> 01:12:48.968 with the spokesman of state. 1131 01:12:48.968 --> 01:12:51.931 And then I got an odd opportunity to do just that. 1132 01:12:53.078 --> 01:12:54.248 For some reason, 1133 01:12:54.248 --> 01:12:56.018 one of the biggest state newspapers 1134 01:12:56.018 --> 01:12:58.270 had invited me to a meeting. 1135 01:12:58.270 --> 01:13:00.308 I think the idea was to convince me, 1136 01:13:00.308 --> 01:13:03.688 to make dreadfully happy stories from China. 1137 01:13:03.688 --> 01:13:05.079 But I wanted to get their 1138 01:13:05.104 --> 01:13:07.105 official opinions on touchy stuff. 1139 01:13:08.338 --> 01:13:11.408 I couldn't get hold of a small spy camera, 1140 01:13:11.408 --> 01:13:13.838 so I tried a more simple solution. 1141 01:13:13.838 --> 01:13:15.899 - We can speak English. - Okay. 1142 01:13:15.899 --> 01:13:17.485 - If you have any questions about. 1143 01:13:17.485 --> 01:13:18.931 - Interesting. 1144 01:13:19.764 --> 01:13:22.778 - The Guangming Newspaper Corporation. 1145 01:13:22.778 --> 01:13:24.158 - Oh yeah. 1146 01:13:24.158 --> 01:13:24.991 Thank you. 1147 01:13:29.998 --> 01:13:34.998 This paper is wholly owned by the Chinese state? 1148 01:13:35.918 --> 01:13:37.738 - Yes. - Okay. 1149 01:13:37.738 --> 01:13:39.938 So which department is under? 1150 01:13:41.743 --> 01:13:42.743 - Publicity. 1151 01:13:43.848 --> 01:13:45.652 - The ministry that you report to? 1152 01:13:45.652 --> 01:13:47.311 - Publicity, yes. 1153 01:13:47.311 --> 01:13:50.058 Publicity. - The Ministry of Publicity? 1154 01:13:50.058 --> 01:13:50.911 - Yes. - Okay. 1155 01:13:52.838 --> 01:13:53.888 So how does that work? 1156 01:13:53.888 --> 01:13:58.085 Is it that you have some guidelines from us? 1157 01:13:58.085 --> 01:14:01.276 Because we don't have state papers anymore. 1158 01:14:01.276 --> 01:14:04.975 Do you have guidelines from the ministry? 1159 01:14:04.975 --> 01:14:06.708 - No. - No, okay. 1160 01:14:06.708 --> 01:14:10.008 - It's just some technical guidelines. 1161 01:14:10.008 --> 01:14:10.841 - Okay. 1162 01:14:10.841 --> 01:14:13.708 - We don't receive direct orders 1163 01:14:13.708 --> 01:14:16.271 or something like this from them. 1164 01:14:18.598 --> 01:14:23.091 - So how do you deal with like Western media, 1165 01:14:24.988 --> 01:14:29.608 who would like to report on more sensitive issues 1166 01:14:29.608 --> 01:14:34.268 or issues that are critical to the Chinese state? 1167 01:14:34.268 --> 01:14:37.593 - The sensitivity is fine, but not biassed. 1168 01:14:37.593 --> 01:14:39.098 - Not biassed? - Yes. 1169 01:14:39.098 --> 01:14:40.831 - What does that mean? 1170 01:14:40.831 --> 01:14:44.241 - I have talked to some journalist, 1171 01:14:45.328 --> 01:14:48.561 from the Guardians, Reuters. 1172 01:14:49.758 --> 01:14:52.202 Because they don't know about, 1173 01:14:52.202 --> 01:14:53.728 the people living Tibet, 1174 01:14:53.728 --> 01:14:55.751 how their life was before, 1175 01:14:56.748 --> 01:14:59.398 because they're basically slaves. 1176 01:14:59.398 --> 01:15:02.018 And Dalai Lama is a slave owner. 1177 01:15:02.018 --> 01:15:03.225 They don't know this. 1178 01:15:05.658 --> 01:15:07.668 - So for you, 1179 01:15:07.668 --> 01:15:11.568 the Tiananmen Square student rebellion, 1180 01:15:11.568 --> 01:15:15.734 in the West it's looked upon as a massacre 1181 01:15:16.567 --> 01:15:19.918 done by the Chinese state mostly. 1182 01:15:19.918 --> 01:15:23.941 That is the general idea but how, 1183 01:15:25.494 --> 01:15:30.388 what would be the Chinese point of view? 1184 01:15:30.388 --> 01:15:35.735 Would it even be possible to do something on that? 1185 01:15:35.760 --> 01:15:39.880 - I believe you have watched the video about the tank man. 1186 01:15:40.792 --> 01:15:43.248 Have you watched that video? 1187 01:15:43.248 --> 01:15:44.430 - What video? 1188 01:15:44.430 --> 01:15:45.960 Tank man? 1189 01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:47.148 The one standing in front of the tank? 1190 01:15:47.148 --> 01:15:49.064 - Yes. - I've seen that. 1191 01:15:49.064 --> 01:15:49.897 - Yes. 1192 01:15:49.897 --> 01:15:52.388 So what do you think about that guy? 1193 01:15:52.388 --> 01:15:54.178 What happened next? 1194 01:15:54.178 --> 01:15:56.028 Has he died or not? 1195 01:15:56.028 --> 01:15:56.861 - I don't know. 1196 01:15:56.861 --> 01:15:59.262 - That's the trick. 1197 01:15:59.262 --> 01:16:00.119 - Ah. 1198 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:02.678 - Because if you watch the whole video, 1199 01:16:02.678 --> 01:16:07.678 you will see the tank turn over those gap other way. 1200 01:16:08.518 --> 01:16:10.218 The guy's totally fine. 1201 01:16:11.478 --> 01:16:15.448 Someone bring him to the side of the street. 1202 01:16:15.448 --> 01:16:16.281 - Mmm. 1203 01:16:16.281 --> 01:16:21.281 - But in the West, the story is the tank crushed the man. 1204 01:16:21.348 --> 01:16:23.865 That's how, they have done. 1205 01:16:25.931 --> 01:16:27.320 - Altered the facts. 1206 01:16:27.320 --> 01:16:28.153 - Yes. 1207 01:16:28.153 --> 01:16:30.648 They never show you, the show the story, 1208 01:16:30.648 --> 01:16:32.693 but never tell you the whole story. 1209 01:16:32.693 --> 01:16:34.008 - Okay. 1210 01:16:34.008 --> 01:16:38.013 So from your journalistic point of view, 1211 01:16:38.013 --> 01:16:42.568 there's no evidence of students being killed 1212 01:16:42.568 --> 01:16:45.251 or massacred or these type of things? 1213 01:16:47.537 --> 01:16:50.598 - I'm only like four years ago? 1214 01:16:50.598 --> 01:16:53.592 - Three or four. - Three years ago, maybe. 1215 01:16:53.592 --> 01:16:58.592 But my uncle, he was a student in college, 1216 01:16:59.154 --> 01:17:03.448 and himself was one of them, 1217 01:17:03.448 --> 01:17:04.888 at Tiananmen Square. 1218 01:17:04.888 --> 01:17:05.862 - He was protesting on them? 1219 01:17:05.862 --> 01:17:06.695 - Yes. 1220 01:17:08.205 --> 01:17:12.391 And he told me that we are also soldiers, killed then. 1221 01:17:12.416 --> 01:17:14.160 We're always asked the same questions. 1222 01:17:14.185 --> 01:17:15.860 In 2008 we also had that same question. 1223 01:17:15.888 --> 01:17:17.828 So there are few who die, yes, 1224 01:17:17.828 --> 01:17:20.770 but if you can just say that's a massacre, no. 1225 01:17:20.770 --> 01:17:22.858 - No, it's not a balanced way of seeing it? 1226 01:17:22.858 --> 01:17:23.691 - Yes. 1227 01:17:33.348 --> 01:17:36.768 - Can't help being fucking impressed by this state. 1228 01:17:36.768 --> 01:17:39.908 The Chinese have censorship figured out. 1229 01:17:39.908 --> 01:17:42.838 One thing for a state to see and censor everything, 1230 01:17:42.838 --> 01:17:44.768 but simply rewrite history, 1231 01:17:44.768 --> 01:17:47.418 if it doesn't fit with the Party line. 1232 01:17:47.418 --> 01:17:48.981 That's some advanced shit. 1233 01:17:50.728 --> 01:17:53.448 But in return, on the surface at least, 1234 01:17:53.448 --> 01:17:55.798 folks have got economic growth, 1235 01:17:55.798 --> 01:17:57.848 Gucci bags and stability, 1236 01:17:57.848 --> 01:17:59.848 who's to blame them for taking the deal? 1237 01:18:03.328 --> 01:18:07.108 But then, what happens if the economy goes bad? 1238 01:18:07.108 --> 01:18:08.698 Will there still be bliss 1239 01:18:08.698 --> 01:18:10.678 when the government start doubling down 1240 01:18:10.678 --> 01:18:12.208 on those who complain? 1241 01:18:12.208 --> 01:18:13.941 And where does the control stop? 1242 01:18:33.935 --> 01:18:35.161 One of the things 1243 01:18:35.161 --> 01:18:38.018 that makes me feel strangely proud of the Americans 1244 01:18:38.018 --> 01:18:40.098 is the Bill of Rights. 1245 01:18:40.098 --> 01:18:41.728 Congress shall not abridge 1246 01:18:41.728 --> 01:18:44.858 the freedom of speech or of the press, 1247 01:18:44.858 --> 01:18:47.031 just has this solid sound to it. 1248 01:18:50.128 --> 01:18:52.018 This is the final station, 1249 01:18:52.018 --> 01:18:54.658 the country with the world's strongest constitutional 1250 01:18:54.658 --> 01:18:56.708 protection against government censorship. 1251 01:18:59.308 --> 01:19:01.458 I tried for a year to get meetings 1252 01:19:01.458 --> 01:19:03.468 to talk to the members of Congress 1253 01:19:03.468 --> 01:19:05.141 bound by that constitution. 1254 01:19:08.198 --> 01:19:09.211 I got zero. 1255 01:19:16.278 --> 01:19:19.178 That's why I decided to jump them in the hallways instead. 1256 01:19:30.788 --> 01:19:32.158 Sorry to bust in, 1257 01:19:32.158 --> 01:19:33.868 my name is Havard Fossum. 1258 01:19:33.868 --> 01:19:35.218 We're making a documentary 1259 01:19:35.218 --> 01:19:37.540 on the issues of controlling information 1260 01:19:37.540 --> 01:19:39.438 in the day and age. 1261 01:19:39.438 --> 01:19:41.608 Is the Congressman in today? 1262 01:19:41.608 --> 01:19:44.948 - He's here, but he just left. - He just left, for lunch? 1263 01:19:44.948 --> 01:19:46.238 You can shoot him an email. 1264 01:19:46.238 --> 01:19:49.198 - Okay, and then hope that he would have the time today, 1265 01:19:49.198 --> 01:19:50.214 you reckon? 1266 01:19:50.239 --> 01:19:52.641 I'm not sure, but Kevin would be the best person to ask. 1267 01:19:52.641 --> 01:19:54.314 - So-so. - Send him an email. 1268 01:19:54.314 --> 01:19:55.147 - Yeah, yeah. 1269 01:19:55.147 --> 01:19:55.980 Okay, good. 1270 01:19:59.778 --> 01:20:03.678 All that constitutional freedom and protection of speech. 1271 01:20:03.678 --> 01:20:06.258 Yet a new U.S. record for censoring 1272 01:20:06.258 --> 01:20:08.761 and withholding government files has been set. 1273 01:20:10.799 --> 01:20:12.331 It doesn't seem to add up. 1274 01:20:13.568 --> 01:20:15.608 That's why I wanted to meet them. 1275 01:20:15.608 --> 01:20:16.811 The people in power. 1276 01:20:19.618 --> 01:20:21.428 Who, according to critics, 1277 01:20:21.428 --> 01:20:24.248 have tried to silence climate scientists 1278 01:20:24.248 --> 01:20:26.638 and imprison whistle-blowers. 1279 01:20:26.638 --> 01:20:28.718 I wanted to hear their arguments. 1280 01:20:28.718 --> 01:20:31.301 What's at stake, if the state doesn't censor? 1281 01:20:33.818 --> 01:20:35.038 I just tried to explain to them, 1282 01:20:35.038 --> 01:20:37.438 we're making a documentary around the world 1283 01:20:37.438 --> 01:20:39.828 on the consequences of over-regulation, 1284 01:20:39.828 --> 01:20:42.137 basically, of the state. 1285 01:20:42.137 --> 01:20:44.061 Is he in today, or? 1286 01:20:46.258 --> 01:20:47.908 - Send me an email and we'll go from there. 1287 01:20:47.908 --> 01:20:49.208 - Okay, thanks a lot. 1288 01:20:49.208 --> 01:20:50.158 - Yeah. - Will do. 1289 01:20:55.234 --> 01:20:58.738 Hello, no one is available to take your call. 1290 01:20:58.738 --> 01:21:01.399 Please leave a message after the. 1291 01:21:01.399 --> 01:21:05.660 - You have reached 7-0-3-3-5-7. 1292 01:21:05.660 --> 01:21:08.367 Gentlemen, you can't video-tape right here. 1293 01:21:08.367 --> 01:21:10.272 This area, this whole area right here-- 1294 01:21:10.272 --> 01:21:11.105 - Sorry, sorry. 1295 01:21:11.105 --> 01:21:12.618 Your call has been forwarded 1296 01:21:12.618 --> 01:21:15.231 to an automated voice messaging system. 1297 01:21:17.688 --> 01:21:19.508 - We got no from ODNI as well... 1298 01:21:21.848 --> 01:21:23.518 Mr. King. 1299 01:21:23.518 --> 01:21:26.228 Hello, I've been waiting for you for quite some time, 1300 01:21:26.228 --> 01:21:28.238 I've been in contact with your office. 1301 01:21:28.238 --> 01:21:30.665 - Right. - My name is Havard Fossum. 1302 01:21:30.665 --> 01:21:33.278 I'm making a documentary on national security 1303 01:21:33.278 --> 01:21:34.828 and the challenges of state. 1304 01:21:34.828 --> 01:21:36.688 - I have to run off that way, will you? 1305 01:21:36.688 --> 01:21:37.521 - Yeah. 1306 01:21:37.521 --> 01:21:41.758 Are you going to the House hearing later on cybersecurity? 1307 01:21:41.758 --> 01:21:43.238 - No, I won't be, I'll be over 1100. 1308 01:21:43.238 --> 01:21:44.438 - Okay. 1309 01:21:44.438 --> 01:21:46.373 Have you got like three minutes for some comments? 1310 01:21:46.373 --> 01:21:49.628 - Not now, I'm booked right now. 1311 01:21:49.628 --> 01:21:51.418 - Right, right. - Come back later. 1312 01:21:51.418 --> 01:21:54.138 - Could we wait for you around here or? 1313 01:21:54.138 --> 01:21:56.792 - I will be there a few hours. - A few hours, really? 1314 01:21:56.792 --> 01:21:57.625 Okay. 1315 01:22:06.048 --> 01:22:10.341 I had countless mind-numbing talks with PR chiefs. 1316 01:22:11.788 --> 01:22:15.598 I even tried making pals with powerful Washington lobbyists, 1317 01:22:15.598 --> 01:22:16.778 but I simply couldn't get 1318 01:22:16.778 --> 01:22:19.341 any of those state representatives to meet me. 1319 01:22:27.058 --> 01:22:28.638 I thought that going to the U.S. 1320 01:22:28.638 --> 01:22:30.808 was such a clever way to end, 1321 01:22:30.808 --> 01:22:32.688 an excellent little climax 1322 01:22:32.688 --> 01:22:34.602 to this whole censorship field trip. 1323 01:22:39.064 --> 01:22:42.418 Here, I'm thinking I've fucked up, 1324 01:22:42.418 --> 01:22:45.288 to be able to meet the censors everywhere, 1325 01:22:45.288 --> 01:22:48.101 only to end in the one country where I can't. 1326 01:22:50.938 --> 01:22:53.018 - This is the main entrance of the CIA, 1327 01:22:53.018 --> 01:22:55.401 you can't really see anything. 1328 01:22:59.378 --> 01:23:01.966 This is the side entrance to the CIA right here. 1329 01:23:01.966 --> 01:23:03.018 - Mmm. 1330 01:23:03.018 --> 01:23:07.388 - But it is also off limits. 1331 01:23:07.388 --> 01:23:09.035 And you can't see the building. 1332 01:23:09.035 --> 01:23:11.708 But there's a legal definition of whistleblowing, 1333 01:23:11.708 --> 01:23:14.288 that is bringing to light any evidence of waste, 1334 01:23:14.288 --> 01:23:16.998 fraud, abuse, illegality or threats 1335 01:23:16.998 --> 01:23:19.768 to the public health or public safety. 1336 01:23:19.768 --> 01:23:21.828 Uh-oh, here come the police. 1337 01:23:21.828 --> 01:23:23.758 They're right behind you. - Yeah, okay. 1338 01:23:23.758 --> 01:23:25.958 - So anyway, the Freedom of Information Act. 1339 01:23:27.348 --> 01:23:30.031 They know that you're gonna give up after a while. 1340 01:23:35.618 --> 01:23:36.536 - What's going on? 1341 01:23:36.536 --> 01:23:38.701 - We're just filming a documentary. 1342 01:23:38.701 --> 01:23:39.534 - What's that? 1343 01:23:39.534 --> 01:23:41.218 - We're just doing a documentary film, 1344 01:23:41.218 --> 01:23:43.568 around the world, basically, 1345 01:23:43.568 --> 01:23:46.428 showing how state regulate the expression 1346 01:23:46.428 --> 01:23:47.261 and things like that. 1347 01:23:47.261 --> 01:23:48.878 Okay, you guys do you have ID by any chance? 1348 01:23:48.878 --> 01:23:49.711 - Yeah. - So. 1349 01:23:51.058 --> 01:23:53.178 - There you go, officer. - Thank you. 1350 01:23:53.178 --> 01:23:55.228 - They're just looking right now. 1351 01:23:55.228 --> 01:23:57.718 If he goes back to the car, they're serious. 1352 01:23:57.718 --> 01:23:58.551 - Okay. 1353 01:23:59.788 --> 01:24:01.421 - Yep, he's getting in the car. 1354 01:24:02.308 --> 01:24:03.141 - Okay. 1355 01:24:04.008 --> 01:24:05.928 - Yeah, they're calling it in. 1356 01:24:05.928 --> 01:24:07.748 - So they're calling it into the CIA? 1357 01:24:07.748 --> 01:24:10.277 - Yeah, to the CIA, they're CIA Police. 1358 01:24:10.277 --> 01:24:11.378 - They're CIA Police? - Uh-huh. 1359 01:24:11.378 --> 01:24:13.198 - Okay, they came out of the gate? 1360 01:24:13.198 --> 01:24:14.031 - Yes. 1361 01:24:17.978 --> 01:24:18.811 Here he comes. 1362 01:24:21.048 --> 01:24:22.538 - Okay guys, here you go. - Thank you. 1363 01:24:22.538 --> 01:24:23.708 - So yeah we're just stopping by, 1364 01:24:23.708 --> 01:24:24.541 'cause you know it's dangerous to stop 1365 01:24:24.541 --> 01:24:26.384 on the side of the road like this. 1366 01:24:26.384 --> 01:24:27.217 - Okay. 1367 01:24:27.217 --> 01:24:28.744 - People were worried about you guys. 1368 01:24:28.744 --> 01:24:29.577 And just so you know, 1369 01:24:29.577 --> 01:24:32.648 if you stop by some other government buildings like this, 1370 01:24:32.648 --> 01:24:34.148 you may get cited for trespassing. 1371 01:24:34.148 --> 01:24:35.678 You're not technically trespassing here 1372 01:24:35.678 --> 01:24:36.828 but it could be an issue here. 1373 01:24:36.828 --> 01:24:38.928 - Yeah, we tried to stay as far away as we could. 1374 01:24:38.928 --> 01:24:40.498 - Yeah. - Okay, well thank you guys. 1375 01:24:40.498 --> 01:24:41.988 - Thank you, have a good day. 1376 01:24:41.988 --> 01:24:42.991 - Yeah, bye. 1377 01:24:47.408 --> 01:24:50.951 - Charged with trespassing. - Okay, what does that mean? 1378 01:24:52.168 --> 01:24:54.658 - Illegal entry on government property. 1379 01:24:54.658 --> 01:24:56.968 - Yeah but was that a warning? - We're not on 1380 01:24:56.968 --> 01:24:59.058 government property, yeah, that was a warning. 1381 01:24:59.058 --> 01:25:00.911 Stay away, don't do this again. 1382 01:25:05.118 --> 01:25:09.198 - Obviously we sent the official request to the to the CIA, 1383 01:25:09.198 --> 01:25:12.809 but it was just turned down flat. 1384 01:25:12.809 --> 01:25:14.458 - Things have really changed. 1385 01:25:14.458 --> 01:25:16.068 - Why did it change? 1386 01:25:16.068 --> 01:25:17.878 - Barack Obama changed it. 1387 01:25:17.878 --> 01:25:20.768 It was Obama who decided to use the Espionage Act 1388 01:25:21.625 --> 01:25:26.078 to plug leaks, leaks to the media. 1389 01:25:26.078 --> 01:25:28.438 Only three times in American history 1390 01:25:28.438 --> 01:25:30.258 before Obama became president 1391 01:25:30.258 --> 01:25:33.318 was the Espionage Act used to prosecute Americans 1392 01:25:33.318 --> 01:25:35.598 who had spoken to the press. 1393 01:25:35.598 --> 01:25:39.818 Under Obama, eight people were charged with espionage. 1394 01:25:39.818 --> 01:25:41.448 I was one of those eight. 1395 01:25:41.448 --> 01:25:43.831 - What was your job at the CIA? 1396 01:25:45.491 --> 01:25:49.138 - I was a counter-terrorism operations officer at the CIA 1397 01:25:49.138 --> 01:25:51.558 and after the September 11th attacks, 1398 01:25:51.558 --> 01:25:56.048 I was the Chief of CIA Counter-Terrorism Operations 1399 01:25:56.048 --> 01:25:57.438 in Pakistan. 1400 01:25:57.438 --> 01:26:00.858 And one of my supervisors asked me 1401 01:26:00.858 --> 01:26:04.548 if I wanted to be trained in the torture techniques. 1402 01:26:04.548 --> 01:26:05.838 - Was that what they actually said? 1403 01:26:05.838 --> 01:26:06.808 - No. 1404 01:26:06.808 --> 01:26:09.228 He said enhanced interrogation techniques. 1405 01:26:09.228 --> 01:26:12.248 And I said I had never heard that term before. 1406 01:26:12.248 --> 01:26:14.018 So I said, "What's that?" 1407 01:26:14.018 --> 01:26:15.105 And he said, "We're gonna start 1408 01:26:15.105 --> 01:26:16.578 "to get rough with these guys." 1409 01:26:16.578 --> 01:26:17.978 He was very excited like that. 1410 01:26:17.978 --> 01:26:20.928 We killed people with that technique. 1411 01:26:20.928 --> 01:26:22.718 And nobody was authorised 1412 01:26:22.718 --> 01:26:26.031 to murder people during interrogations. 1413 01:26:26.988 --> 01:26:27.821 So I said, 1414 01:26:27.821 --> 01:26:30.988 "No, no, this, this sounds like a torture programme." 1415 01:26:30.988 --> 01:26:33.871 I said, "I have a moral, ethical problem with this, 1416 01:26:33.871 --> 01:26:35.218 "I'm not interested." 1417 01:26:35.218 --> 01:26:37.738 Espionage, it's the gravest crime 1418 01:26:37.738 --> 01:26:40.958 with which an American can be charged. 1419 01:26:40.958 --> 01:26:44.878 And it's frequently a death penalty charge, 1420 01:26:44.878 --> 01:26:47.921 death penalty for talking to the press. 1421 01:26:48.888 --> 01:26:51.291 This is the final entrance to the CIA. 1422 01:26:52.430 --> 01:26:54.128 It's this exit right here. 1423 01:26:54.128 --> 01:26:56.328 So the CIA is right here through these trees. 1424 01:26:56.328 --> 01:26:57.198 - Yeah. 1425 01:26:57.198 --> 01:26:59.351 - But you can't see it. 1426 01:27:02.798 --> 01:27:04.298 That's probably the best view. 1427 01:27:05.788 --> 01:27:09.358 You can see it in the winter just barely through the trees 1428 01:27:09.358 --> 01:27:10.338 when the leaves are down 1429 01:27:10.338 --> 01:27:12.811 but any other time of the year it's impossible. 1430 01:27:20.640 --> 01:27:24.440 Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 1431 01:27:24.457 --> 01:27:27.874 - Stop the violence, stop the hate. 1432 01:27:31.194 --> 01:27:34.063 Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 1433 01:27:34.063 --> 01:27:36.813 Stop the violence, stop the hate. 1434 01:27:46.415 --> 01:27:47.765 - Looks like he's thinking. 1435 01:27:49.218 --> 01:27:50.934 - I think he did a lot of thinking. 1436 01:27:50.934 --> 01:27:53.858 I think so too. 1437 01:27:53.858 --> 01:27:55.178 - In all the different countries 1438 01:27:55.178 --> 01:27:59.781 I've been to, to Iran, to China, to Germany, 1439 01:27:59.781 --> 01:28:04.058 we spent quite some time with the Department of Justice. 1440 01:28:04.058 --> 01:28:06.308 They've all let us in. 1441 01:28:06.308 --> 01:28:09.018 They've all been eager to explain 1442 01:28:09.018 --> 01:28:10.668 what they're doing, what they're, 1443 01:28:11.838 --> 01:28:13.701 to give us their arguments. 1444 01:28:15.328 --> 01:28:18.478 And as such have a sense of transparency 1445 01:28:18.478 --> 01:28:22.138 about what's going on, how are decisions made, 1446 01:28:22.138 --> 01:28:24.308 how are policy formed, 1447 01:28:24.308 --> 01:28:27.228 and how this is put out into action? 1448 01:28:27.228 --> 01:28:29.058 But in the U.S., you know, 1449 01:28:29.058 --> 01:28:30.658 we requested interviews, 1450 01:28:30.658 --> 01:28:35.068 we've been trying for a long time, months, 1451 01:28:35.068 --> 01:28:39.708 just to get someone inside the EPA to talk to us. 1452 01:28:39.708 --> 01:28:40.541 And they won't. 1453 01:28:41.618 --> 01:28:43.788 I guess we...yeah. 1454 01:28:43.788 --> 01:28:46.848 - So if they see you and the cameras, they will stay away. 1455 01:28:46.848 --> 01:28:47.958 - Okay, yeah. 1456 01:28:47.958 --> 01:28:50.178 - Or they may wave from a distance. 1457 01:28:50.178 --> 01:28:51.068 - Yeah. 1458 01:28:51.068 --> 01:28:53.358 - Or if they don't I'll might... 1459 01:28:54.808 --> 01:28:55.641 - Yeah. 1460 01:28:55.641 --> 01:28:56.474 - Particularly with the cameras 1461 01:28:56.474 --> 01:28:58.358 that would be difficult for them. 1462 01:28:58.358 --> 01:28:59.191 - Sure. 1463 01:29:00.878 --> 01:29:05.878 It's quite, yeah, chilling in lack of another word, 1464 01:29:07.108 --> 01:29:12.008 to hear that people are so scared to talk. 1465 01:29:12.008 --> 01:29:13.527 Scientists, people. 1466 01:29:15.373 --> 01:29:16.873 Is that the president? - Yes. 1467 01:29:20.788 --> 01:29:22.530 Morning, gentlemen? 1468 01:29:22.530 --> 01:29:23.472 All right? 1469 01:29:23.472 --> 01:29:25.098 - All right. 1470 01:29:25.098 --> 01:29:25.931 Gentlemen. 1471 01:29:26.888 --> 01:29:28.188 Put your camera down, sir, 1472 01:29:29.258 --> 01:29:30.138 - You've got to put the camera down. 1473 01:29:30.138 --> 01:29:30.971 - Okay. 1474 01:29:32.618 --> 01:29:34.181 - All the way down. - Okay. 1475 01:29:36.998 --> 01:29:38.638 - Good, put your car in park. - It is. 1476 01:29:38.638 --> 01:29:39.828 Go to the back window 1477 01:29:39.828 --> 01:29:41.278 and open up the trunk for me. 1478 01:29:47.967 --> 01:29:48.800 - Thank you, sir. 1479 01:29:48.800 --> 01:29:49.633 You have a good day. 1480 01:30:01.718 --> 01:30:05.838 - I read this Guardian report a couple of years back, 1481 01:30:05.838 --> 01:30:09.188 it showed the emails that one of the, 1482 01:30:09.188 --> 01:30:11.888 I guess the transition heads of the EPA 1483 01:30:11.888 --> 01:30:15.558 was sending to everyone basically saying that 1484 01:30:15.558 --> 01:30:18.898 climate change is a word that we don't use anymore? 1485 01:30:18.898 --> 01:30:20.468 - It's been taken off our website. 1486 01:30:20.468 --> 01:30:23.068 - It should be replaced with, what, extreme weather? 1487 01:30:23.988 --> 01:30:26.278 - Yeah, I mean, I think it's part of the bigger narrative. 1488 01:30:26.278 --> 01:30:31.278 I mean, for me, it was, you're now telling sciences, 1489 01:30:32.088 --> 01:30:33.818 we don't wanna hear what you say. 1490 01:30:33.818 --> 01:30:37.348 - In case we have forgotten because we keep hearing 1491 01:30:37.348 --> 01:30:41.928 that 2014 has been the warmest year on record, 1492 01:30:41.928 --> 01:30:43.998 I asked the chair you know what this is? 1493 01:30:43.998 --> 01:30:46.008 It's a snowball. 1494 01:30:46.008 --> 01:30:48.568 And that just from outside here, 1495 01:30:48.568 --> 01:30:50.728 so it's very, very cold out. 1496 01:30:50.728 --> 01:30:51.771 Very unseasonal. 1497 01:30:53.818 --> 01:30:56.438 - I knew there was a good story to be told here 1498 01:30:56.438 --> 01:30:58.248 in the Land of the Free. 1499 01:30:58.248 --> 01:31:00.368 The chilling effect on free speech 1500 01:31:00.368 --> 01:31:04.258 and political control over what state employees can say. 1501 01:31:04.258 --> 01:31:06.348 But you see, their administration 1502 01:31:06.348 --> 01:31:09.408 has developed this intelligent way to keep folks 1503 01:31:09.408 --> 01:31:12.068 from peeking into their little businesses. 1504 01:31:12.068 --> 01:31:13.348 They exhaust journalists 1505 01:31:13.348 --> 01:31:15.928 and Norwegian documentary filmmakers, 1506 01:31:15.928 --> 01:31:18.788 refusing them access, handing out tweets 1507 01:31:18.788 --> 01:31:20.588 and other fun distractions, 1508 01:31:20.588 --> 01:31:23.401 until the real information is old news. 1509 01:31:24.958 --> 01:31:27.298 I could either turn apathetic 1510 01:31:27.298 --> 01:31:29.650 or try to get hold of a whistleblower. 1511 01:31:29.650 --> 01:31:30.733 Good morning? 1512 01:31:31.888 --> 01:31:33.121 We were a bit early. 1513 01:31:33.121 --> 01:31:34.948 - Okay. - How are you? 1514 01:31:34.948 --> 01:31:36.448 - Good, how are you? - Hey, I'm Havard. 1515 01:31:36.448 --> 01:31:37.898 Nice to meet you. 1516 01:31:37.898 --> 01:31:40.178 How many years did you work here? 1517 01:31:40.178 --> 01:31:41.628 - Seven years, I was here. - Seven years? 1518 01:31:41.628 --> 01:31:42.461 - Yeah, yeah. 1519 01:31:42.461 --> 01:31:46.028 So, you know and it was, 1520 01:31:46.028 --> 01:31:47.108 it was a great seven years. 1521 01:31:47.108 --> 01:31:49.178 It exceeded all my expectations. 1522 01:31:49.178 --> 01:31:51.158 I loved working in federal service. 1523 01:31:51.158 --> 01:31:51.991 - Yeah. 1524 01:31:51.991 --> 01:31:55.598 - Because just the opportunity to impact policy directly, 1525 01:31:55.598 --> 01:31:56.838 it was really great. - Yeah. 1526 01:31:56.838 --> 01:31:58.988 - So we've got to go in this one over here. 1527 01:32:02.698 --> 01:32:03.531 Yeah. 1528 01:32:06.538 --> 01:32:08.280 Is the craft-store open today? 1529 01:32:08.280 --> 01:32:10.528 - The craft-store is open. 1530 01:32:10.528 --> 01:32:11.778 Sir, can you not record me, please? 1531 01:32:11.778 --> 01:32:13.388 Thank you. - Right. 1532 01:32:13.388 --> 01:32:15.238 We just wanted to have some internal shots 1533 01:32:15.238 --> 01:32:16.794 of the building. 1534 01:32:16.794 --> 01:32:17.804 - You need to have permission. 1535 01:32:17.804 --> 01:32:20.098 It's not allowed to be filming in the building right now. 1536 01:32:20.098 --> 01:32:22.768 - Okay, it's not allowed? - Yes, that's how it is. 1537 01:32:22.768 --> 01:32:23.951 - Thank you, good day 1538 01:32:25.348 --> 01:32:26.508 - What happened to you? 1539 01:32:26.508 --> 01:32:30.228 - Well, so, you know, one night in June, 1540 01:32:30.228 --> 01:32:32.498 so six months into the new administration. 1541 01:32:32.498 --> 01:32:34.878 - Yeah. - I get an email, 1542 01:32:34.878 --> 01:32:35.988 a friend actually called 1543 01:32:35.988 --> 01:32:37.498 and said you might wanna check your email 1544 01:32:37.498 --> 01:32:40.338 'cause a few people've have been reassigned. 1545 01:32:40.338 --> 01:32:41.171 I got an email saying, 1546 01:32:41.171 --> 01:32:42.038 you have been reassigned, 1547 01:32:42.038 --> 01:32:43.888 you're now gonna work in the office that collects 1548 01:32:43.888 --> 01:32:47.078 royalty checks from the oil and gas and mining companies. 1549 01:32:47.078 --> 01:32:48.868 And I felt like I couldn't speak out anymore 1550 01:32:48.868 --> 01:32:49.858 about climate change. 1551 01:32:49.858 --> 01:32:51.568 I wouldn't be able to, you know, 1552 01:32:51.568 --> 01:32:54.988 attend events and engage in my field. 1553 01:32:54.988 --> 01:32:58.488 So I'd already lost the job that I came to do. 1554 01:32:58.488 --> 01:33:02.218 So in order to keep my voice I quit a few months later. 1555 01:33:02.218 --> 01:33:04.068 - Yeah, would you call what you experienced 1556 01:33:04.068 --> 01:33:06.728 and what your colleagues have experienced 1557 01:33:06.728 --> 01:33:09.658 what's going on inside the Department of Interior, 1558 01:33:09.658 --> 01:33:11.418 would you call that censorship? 1559 01:33:11.418 --> 01:33:12.738 - Well, I do. 1560 01:33:12.738 --> 01:33:16.308 I have a very loose definition of censorship these days 1561 01:33:16.308 --> 01:33:17.887 because a lot of what's happening 1562 01:33:17.887 --> 01:33:20.808 is just creating the atmosphere of censor, 1563 01:33:20.808 --> 01:33:22.398 the climate of censorship. 1564 01:33:22.398 --> 01:33:23.248 - Right. 1565 01:33:23.248 --> 01:33:24.658 - So that no one feels like 1566 01:33:24.658 --> 01:33:27.498 they can need they can either express 1567 01:33:27.498 --> 01:33:32.348 nor work on things that may attract attention, 1568 01:33:32.348 --> 01:33:35.546 undue and unwanted attention to their work. 1569 01:33:35.546 --> 01:33:37.235 So the self-censorship 1570 01:33:37.235 --> 01:33:39.738 and this climate of censorship in the building 1571 01:33:39.738 --> 01:33:42.121 and in the offices, is rife. 1572 01:33:46.258 --> 01:33:50.318 - What's at stake then for the American people 1573 01:33:50.318 --> 01:33:55.318 when we start making policies on beliefs? 1574 01:33:55.528 --> 01:33:58.581 - Yeah, you know, I mean, that's, at this point, 1575 01:33:59.578 --> 01:34:01.108 it's health and safety, 1576 01:34:01.108 --> 01:34:04.158 it's the protection of our natural resources 1577 01:34:04.158 --> 01:34:06.568 that are such a big part of the American character. 1578 01:34:06.568 --> 01:34:07.628 - Yeah. 1579 01:34:07.628 --> 01:34:10.408 - You know, the public lands, species, wildlife, 1580 01:34:10.408 --> 01:34:13.518 all the things that we have laws in place to protect. 1581 01:34:13.518 --> 01:34:15.568 If the implementation of those laws 1582 01:34:15.568 --> 01:34:19.328 starts to get politicised in these ways, 1583 01:34:19.328 --> 01:34:20.908 we're not doing, we're not following through. 1584 01:34:20.908 --> 01:34:22.994 Those laws are promised to the American people. 1585 01:34:22.994 --> 01:34:24.868 We'll protect you from this, 1586 01:34:24.868 --> 01:34:27.638 we will provide as needed to protect these lands 1587 01:34:27.638 --> 01:34:29.878 that we all share and care about, 1588 01:34:29.878 --> 01:34:31.878 and those promises are being broken now. 1589 01:34:36.920 --> 01:34:38.653 That's just a nice picture 1590 01:34:40.598 --> 01:34:43.761 You know, this country has allowed, 1591 01:34:44.658 --> 01:34:47.278 rather than publicly-funded elections. 1592 01:34:47.278 --> 01:34:50.368 They're almost entirely privately-funded 1593 01:34:50.368 --> 01:34:52.388 and you have these Super-PAC's 1594 01:34:52.388 --> 01:34:54.118 we call them Political Action Committees. 1595 01:34:54.118 --> 01:34:55.368 You don't even have to disclose 1596 01:34:55.368 --> 01:34:56.868 who's putting money in these things. 1597 01:34:56.868 --> 01:34:58.648 And, so you've got a you know, 1598 01:34:58.648 --> 01:35:00.768 a company can't resist the opportunity 1599 01:35:00.768 --> 01:35:04.128 to pour money into the re-election of a candidate 1600 01:35:04.128 --> 01:35:07.188 who has been absolutely doing as they asked. 1601 01:35:07.188 --> 01:35:09.638 So you could run, once you're in Congress 1602 01:35:09.638 --> 01:35:13.898 and if you want to say whatever they want you to say. 1603 01:35:13.898 --> 01:35:16.358 They will make sure you get re-elected. 1604 01:35:16.358 --> 01:35:18.568 I mean, it's come to that at this point in this country. 1605 01:35:18.568 --> 01:35:23.568 So, it is very much a money-driven endeavour. 1606 01:35:24.558 --> 01:35:27.528 Call it what you will, right, censorship or suppression, 1607 01:35:27.528 --> 01:35:31.118 but keeping information from people 1608 01:35:31.118 --> 01:35:32.721 whose lives are threatened, 1609 01:35:33.768 --> 01:35:37.688 is, I believe, criminal and we need to act on that. 1610 01:35:46.275 --> 01:35:50.358 The establishment protected itself. 1611 01:35:53.568 --> 01:35:56.941 - So, can state censorship be good? 1612 01:36:03.648 --> 01:36:05.058 I haven't seen anything else 1613 01:36:05.058 --> 01:36:06.908 that looks authoritative enough 1614 01:36:06.908 --> 01:36:09.666 to solve hate speech and fake news. 1615 01:36:13.968 --> 01:36:15.658 The question is, 1616 01:36:15.658 --> 01:36:18.501 what happens after they start calling the shots? 1617 01:36:21.318 --> 01:36:24.738 I don't want to ask the state to make the shit disappear 1618 01:36:24.738 --> 01:36:26.418 if that's the slippery slope, 1619 01:36:26.418 --> 01:36:28.401 ending with a bloody Thought Police. 1620 01:36:35.968 --> 01:36:37.548 So is it up to me and you, then, 1621 01:36:37.548 --> 01:36:40.148 to do the shit-shoveling ourselves? 1622 01:36:42.828 --> 01:36:45.258 Fight hatred every single day 1623 01:36:45.258 --> 01:36:49.261 on the internet in the alleys, wherever the madness goes. 1624 01:36:52.298 --> 01:36:54.088 And with what exactly? 1625 01:36:54.088 --> 01:36:55.318 Dialogue? 1626 01:36:55.318 --> 01:36:57.268 Fine arguments? 1627 01:36:57.268 --> 01:36:58.101 Love? 1628 01:37:00.008 --> 01:37:02.658 Feels bloody overwhelming, doesn't it? 1629 01:37:02.658 --> 01:37:03.491 Naive. 1630 01:37:06.408 --> 01:37:07.578 Does it even make sense 1631 01:37:07.578 --> 01:37:10.648 to cling on to the liberal democratic play rules? 1632 01:37:10.648 --> 01:37:12.438 Those the Nazis and other fanatics 1633 01:37:12.438 --> 01:37:14.321 not only gave a flying fuck about, 1634 01:37:15.168 --> 01:37:16.651 but actually want to destroy. 1635 01:37:21.068 --> 01:37:22.641 So, what then? 1636 01:37:27.728 --> 01:37:30.408 Perhaps a first step is to accept 1637 01:37:30.408 --> 01:37:32.998 that dealing with freedom of speech 1638 01:37:32.998 --> 01:37:35.308 is a constantly evolving process, 1639 01:37:35.308 --> 01:37:36.551 just like democracy. 1640 01:37:38.458 --> 01:37:41.087 Maybe there is no quick fix. 1641 01:37:45.060 --> 01:37:49.460 Throw out the scum! Throw out the scum!