WEBVTT FILE 1 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:07.000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:07.760 --> 00:00:11.560 My name is Dan Leo, and I'm a former Samoa Rugby player. 3 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:13.000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 4 00:00:13.120 --> 00:00:16.960 I was dropped from our national team for exposing corruption within our union. 5 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:24.560 Our chairman, who is also the Prime Minister of our country, along with our senior politicians, 6 00:00:24.560 --> 00:00:30.200 had mismanaged hundreds of thousands of pounds, most of which had been raised through public donations. 7 00:00:30.200 --> 00:00:34.640 The evidence was ignored by the sport’s governing body, World Rugby. 8 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:40.120 Our national team then fell from 7th in the world to 17th in just three years. 9 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:46.560 In 2016, I set out to find the real stories behind why Pacific rugby is struggling, 10 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.480 and despite providing many of the world’s top rugby players to an ever-profitable sport, 11 00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:57.640 the island nations of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji, increasingly find themselves on the edge of bankruptcy. 12 00:00:59.080 --> 00:01:03.120 I couldn’t have known then that I would stumble across one of the biggest scandals in sport, 13 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:07.480 or what I'd learn about the men who were supposed to be the guardians of the game. 14 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:10.320 Chairman of the Fiji Rugby Union, if he's convicted for manslaughter, 15 00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:11.920 I think there's something wrong with that. 16 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:15.360 If it was a different Prime Minister, and wasn't part of the military, fine. 17 00:01:15.360 --> 00:01:17.280 Frank can f**king make you disappear. 18 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:22.760 The big nations are writing what needs to be done and ignoring whatever you do. 19 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:28.480 Rugby basically can hang its head in shame because it is not fulfilling its own values. 20 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.520 We are Pacific Islanders, and this is our story. 21 00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:33.560 It's a story about people, 22 00:01:34.240 --> 00:01:35.400 about greed, 23 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.160 about power, 24 00:01:38.160 --> 00:01:43.200 about the endless pursuit for more, and the precious things that are lost along the way. 25 00:01:56.360 --> 00:02:02.680 The Pacific Islands of Fiji, Tonga and Samoa have a combined population of 1.5 million people. 26 00:02:04.520 --> 00:02:07.320 Known for their sandy beaches and friendly smiles, 27 00:02:07.320 --> 00:02:10.680 the Pacific way of life places community and family above all else. 28 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:19.280 Since the day it was first introduced, rugby has become the national sport and is the heart and soul of community life. 29 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:24.160 Nothing lifts these nations spirits, or brings people together, quite like the game of Rugby. 30 00:02:26.760 --> 00:02:30.160 Known for bringing excitement, aggression and exceptional skill, 31 00:02:30.160 --> 00:02:37.000 these three islands provide more than a quarter of the world’s professional rugby players and some of the biggest names in the sport. 32 00:02:44.640 --> 00:02:48.920 Every year, Pacific expats send more than £300 million pounds back to these islands, 33 00:02:48.920 --> 00:02:53.560 and rugby players alone contribute up to 20% of GDP. 34 00:02:54.280 --> 00:03:00.480 Here in Fiji where the minimum wage is 10 times lower than their closest neighbours, Australia and New Zealand 35 00:03:00.480 --> 00:03:04.080 rugby has become more than just a game, it’s a lifeline. 36 00:03:07.920 --> 00:03:12.840 This was the case for Rupeni Caucaunibuca, one of the greatest rugby players of all time, 37 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:16.480 who went from one of the most remote villages in the world to international greatness, 38 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.680 So when I came to New Zealand, it's funny. 39 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:24.640 I can't even speak English, that's true. 40 00:03:24.640 --> 00:03:28.680 I only understand 'yes, no, come, go'. 41 00:03:28.920 --> 00:03:31.000 You know I left school early. 42 00:03:31.880 --> 00:03:34.040 We lived in a small house. 43 00:03:34.480 --> 00:03:38.280 I've got 4 sisters, me and my brother. 44 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:39.640 We struggled every day, 45 00:03:39.640 --> 00:03:44.760 and I signed the contract, the first thing I did, I built one house. 46 00:03:45.040 --> 00:03:51.680 When I finish the house and I go to see my Dad and I tell him 'hey, I built one new house for you'. 47 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:54.680 When he looked at me he starts to cry. 48 00:03:55.240 --> 00:04:00.920 That's the reason I wanted to go to start my rugby. 49 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:03.880 With the difficulty of adapting to life overseas, 50 00:04:03.880 --> 00:04:08.120 Rupeni would often disappear from his club and return to his family in Fiji. 51 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:11.080 It's not like you live in town. 52 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:13.560 Like you pay your house or your rent, 53 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:18.480 you know, living in the village, with your friends and your relatives. 54 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:22.160 Sometimes it made me, I didn't want to go back. 55 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:26.640 First time too for me, I'd ever seen that kind of money. 56 00:04:26.640 --> 00:04:34.680 and from now, I've stopped international rugby, I find it hard. 57 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:41.880 but it's too late, I've already spent it all 58 00:04:41.880 --> 00:04:44.880 for nothing... 59 00:04:45.280 --> 00:04:49.360 Having grown up admiring Rupeni, it was sad to see him now struggling, 60 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:53.840 And with professional teams now queueing up to sign Rupeni’s 11-year old son, 61 00:04:53.840 --> 00:05:00.040 I can’t help but wonder, perhaps even fear, what the future holds for the next generation of Pacific Rugby stars. 62 00:05:07.200 --> 00:05:10.600 To try and understand why so many players are leaving to play overseas, 63 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:13.680 I want to find out what is going on with the Pacific Rugby unions themselves 64 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:16.360 and whether they are doing anything to protect these players. 65 00:05:19.640 --> 00:05:23.160 Having coached Fiji to an Olympic Gold medal in 2016, 66 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:26.520 Ben Ryan has seen first-hand the challenges faced by Pacific rugby. 67 00:05:32.400 --> 00:05:35.640 To see that Dubai tournament, the first one after I left 68 00:05:35.640 --> 00:05:39.080 where one of the boys playing was not only unemployed, he was homeless 69 00:05:39.080 --> 00:05:42.560 and he's playing international football for Fiji 7s team, 70 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.280 the Olympic champions. 71 00:05:44.640 --> 00:05:49.840 3 months after winning an Olympic Games and that’s how they got treated. 72 00:05:49.840 --> 00:05:54.640 It shows you how they feel about the players, that there’s just a big long line of them. 73 00:05:54.640 --> 00:05:59.440 That if one of them doesn’t agree to not getting a contract, doing stuff for nothing or not having any job security 74 00:05:59.440 --> 00:06:02.440 well, we’ll just get the next one, cause they’re all there, they keep coming. 75 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:15.520 The Chairman of the Fiji Rugby Union, if he's convicted for manslaughter 76 00:06:15.520 --> 00:06:20.680 and he's then eligible still to be a Chairman of one of our world unions, 77 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.200 I think there's something wrong with that. 78 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:33.840 'The coup in 2000, and the subsequent mutiny in the ranks of the Army, 79 00:06:33.840 --> 00:06:38.720 were so traumatic, they've left a permanent scar on the national conciousness.' 80 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:45.720 The leader of the last coup, Frank Bainimarama, is now Fiji's Prime Minister, and is also the President of Fiji Rugby. 81 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:52.800 His brother-in-law, Francis Kean, is Fiji Rugby’s Chairman, who was convicted of manslaughter after he beat a man to death. 82 00:06:52.960 --> 00:06:57.280 Because he’d been found guilty of manslaughter, it got down graded because 83 00:06:57.280 --> 00:06:59.960 all the witnesses didn’t show up of course they didn’t. 84 00:06:59.960 --> 00:07:05.080 he only did about a week because Frank, his brother-in-law, got him out. However that was a sentence. 85 00:07:05.440 --> 00:07:11.320 The fact that he’s the President of the Rugby Union means that there’s gonna be a political connection. 86 00:07:11.320 --> 00:07:13.880 Now that’s just wrong, we should be splitting that up. 87 00:07:13.880 --> 00:07:18.840 When you were captain of Fiji, did you have to have much contact with all those guys? 88 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:22.280 I know Frank. You don't want to mess with him. 89 00:07:22.280 --> 00:07:24.880 I don't want to not be able to go back to Fiji, 90 00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:29.280 because he's just won the election, I don't want to be saying anything bad. 91 00:07:29.280 --> 00:07:31.440 and that's the thing, you don't want to mess with Frank. 92 00:07:31.440 --> 00:07:33.320 Frank can f**king make you disappear. 93 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:44.920 They'll come into a gym and with two Army players and say you gotta pick these next week, 94 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.120 or knocks on doors for players in 95 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.560 the middle of the night from government employees asking them to do various things. 96 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:57.640 Players that won't get selected if perhaps their families support the opposition party. 97 00:07:57.640 --> 00:08:02.720 I think there needs to be some stronger directive from World Rugby, 98 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:06.360 but ultimately if you allow it to happen because of the governance, 99 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.520 then we're in trouble. 100 00:08:10.080 --> 00:08:14.680 Having both captained and managed Samoa, Pat Lam is one of the top coaches in the world, 101 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:18.560 so I want to get his thoughts on why Samoan rugby is at its lowest point ever. 102 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:22.360 Pat! How you going bud? 103 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:25.240 Good to see you, long time. 104 00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:29.360 I always say leadership is always the answer it's always the problem. 105 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:29.400 If things are going really well in a rugby team business, family, look at the leaders. If it's not, look at the leaders. 106 00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:34.440 If things are going really well in a rugby team business, family, look at the leaders. If it's not, look at the leaders. 107 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.320 The players are playing some high level rugby, 108 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:42.880 so there is the players to be one of the top teams in the world. 109 00:08:42.880 --> 00:08:46.440 But to me, it comes back to complete organisation 110 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.000 I found in the islands sometimes there's people in those jobs 111 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.920 because it's their turn, no it should be whoever's 112 00:08:53.920 --> 00:08:56.840 the best at the job get in and get the job done. 113 00:08:58.280 --> 00:09:01.960 For me it's getting that whole management team right and organised, 114 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:04.560 so the players shouldn't be worried about when they come in 115 00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:09.280 oh where's my pay? Where's my flights? 116 00:09:09.280 --> 00:09:11.480 Who's doing this? Where's the gear? Why is this late? 117 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:15.320 It can't be that way because it creates the wrong mindset. 118 00:09:15.760 --> 00:09:21.840 'Tonga's rugby players are celebrating a win of sorts with its rugby union paying overdue match fees. 119 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:26.600 One News revealed on tuesday that players had not been paid for recent tours and camps.' 120 00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:31.080 So we didn't get paid for that whole tour and 121 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:36.880 we just asked a lot of questions and got the same answers I guess. 122 00:09:36.880 --> 00:09:38.040 What's a match fee for Tonga? 123 00:09:38.040 --> 00:09:42.760 £300, that's for 4 games, that's for the whole tour. 124 00:09:42.760 --> 00:09:43.840 So £80 per game? 125 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:45.080 £80 per game. 126 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.880 We had the same with Samoa. We'd often play in sellout stadiums 127 00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:53.600 around Europe for next to nothing, knowing that our opposition were getting 128 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:56.080 paid at times tens of thousands of pounds. 129 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.240 We didn't know if it was the game that was taking advantage of Samoa Rugby 130 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.360 or if it was our own officials that were taking advantage of us. 131 00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:07.920 With the Tongan structure, there's only one guy on top 132 00:10:07.920 --> 00:10:11.520 and on top of him as the Prime Minister, so it's kind of hard to 133 00:10:11.520 --> 00:10:15.720 to combat that sort of style because politics can kind of take over anything. 134 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:20.240 We do want to change, we don't want to be the same old Tongan team year in year out. 135 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:27.280 Pacific Islanders are 30 times more likely to have a career in rugby than anyone else, 136 00:10:27.280 --> 00:10:29.960 and with hundreds of professional players around the world 137 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:32.720 many choose to play for their adopted nations. 138 00:10:34.040 --> 00:10:37.040 You hear lots of stories of sort of corruption and mismanagement 139 00:10:37.040 --> 00:10:41.560 do you think that's something that sort of puts Pacific Islanders off coming and playing for the island teams? 140 00:10:41.560 --> 00:10:45.400 Yeah I think it does. Personally, I think it does and I think 141 00:10:45.400 --> 00:10:50.320 it has an effect on the way that guys look at the islands maybe. 142 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:57.040 'Manu Tuilagi, always a key man.' 143 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:05.240 My brothers playing for Samoa and you know and hearing about 144 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:13.800 all the problems that I don't have to go through playing for England. 145 00:11:13.800 --> 00:11:17.400 Friends of mine have gone through it so 146 00:11:17.400 --> 00:11:24.520 I think it's something that needs to look at and it needs to change. 147 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:34.240 I feel sorry for the boys out there because they're giving everything 148 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:39.040 you know some of them, that's the only way they can afford to support the family. 149 00:11:39.040 --> 00:11:41.920 It's just unfortunate for the players who are involved, 150 00:11:41.920 --> 00:11:46.280 they make their efforts to go back there and 151 00:11:46.280 --> 00:11:49.160 give their time and effort for the country and they're not quite 152 00:11:49.160 --> 00:11:51.240 supported by the management squad. 153 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:55.280 You know a person like yourself has probably seen it first-hand and what it can do 154 00:11:55.280 --> 00:12:00.920 not only on the field but off the field and how that affects your 155 00:12:00.920 --> 00:12:04.440 affects your team and the mentality of your team and 156 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:08.680 how that can bring your team culture down, 157 00:12:08.680 --> 00:12:13.160 and not worry about rugby, you're worried about other stuff. 158 00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:27.120 My international career with Manu Samoa began in 2005. 159 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:30.360 We didn't have the resources or facilities that the big teams did 160 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:32.920 but we made do with what little we had. 161 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:36.840 Whether it was busking outside a restaurant in Scotland to pay for a meal 162 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.320 or walking to a test match after the bus broke down, 163 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:41.640 it was those moments that provided the best memories, 164 00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:43.120 and made our team feel like a family. 165 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.920 But sadly, the good times were always overshadowed by political interference and off-field controversy. 166 00:12:50.640 --> 00:12:57.160 Back in 2014, myself and the Samoan Rugby team were about to strike our game against England at Twickenham. 167 00:12:57.160 --> 00:13:00.080 We didn't want to but we felt like we had no choice. 168 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.720 We'd been evidence that potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds 169 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.040 had gone missing at the hands of Samoa Rugby's board members, 170 00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:09.800 including our Prime Minister. 171 00:13:16.160 --> 00:13:20.120 The most disappointing part was that a lot of this money was publicly raised. 172 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:25.080 Everyone had donated because they wanted to see us do well and they had pride in our team. 173 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.760 So to turn up and at times not have balls to train with, no kit. 174 00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:32.720 It just wasn't good enough. 175 00:13:34.160 --> 00:13:38.880 We played that day, but only after World Rugby promised us that the issue would be resolved. 176 00:13:40.280 --> 00:13:44.280 but nothing ever happened. Myself and other senior players were criticized and 177 00:13:44.280 --> 00:13:48.640 dropped for speaking out and I never played again. 178 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.400 Using this Samoan proverb, myself and other players created 'Pacific Rugby Welfare' 179 00:14:05.400 --> 00:14:09.040 to support the hundreds of Pacific players and families living throughout the world. 180 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:17.360 The impact that this group really has is huge on a global scale. 181 00:14:19.680 --> 00:14:23.960 Being involved in this is something I'm really grateful for because 182 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:27.040 I know the power of what we do. 183 00:14:27.040 --> 00:14:30.520 It's always the guy that's coming behind you that you want to 184 00:14:30.520 --> 00:14:33.680 lead a way, because the end of the day we're here to provide for our 185 00:14:33.680 --> 00:14:35.840 families, we're here to do the same things. 186 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.920 With all other players associations being funded by World Rugby, 187 00:14:39.920 --> 00:14:43.680 we felt it was important to have an organisation that was totally independent, 188 00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:46.640 so that we can truly challenge the way the sport is being run. 189 00:14:48.800 --> 00:14:54.480 I'm on my way to Romania today to support Tongan international Sione Vaiomounga. 190 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:59.600 Having taken up a professional rugby contract here, Sione has become stranded after suffering from kidney failure. 191 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:04.480 That night, I started bleeding on my nose and 192 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:11.680 after the game I go back to the hospital and they said I have a kidney problem, 193 00:15:11.680 --> 00:15:14.800 and when they told me I have to do dialysis 194 00:15:14.800 --> 00:15:18.240 and I thought the dialysis is going to make it better. 195 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:23.840 After that I found out after a few months, I had to do that for the rest of my life. 196 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.400 With the club ripping up his contract because of his sickness, Sione now relies 197 00:15:29.400 --> 00:15:31.920 on the church and local shelters to feed his family. 198 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.920 From that moment I know, maybe after that 199 00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:41.360 I'd never play again, I'd never get paid again. 200 00:15:42.680 --> 00:15:44.720 It was horrible. 201 00:15:46.880 --> 00:15:51.360 Leaving Sione, knowing he may well die here in Romania was heartbreaking 202 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:55.720 and I couldn't imagine having to move my family around the world to live in these conditions 203 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.840 and earn just €8,000 a year. 204 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:06.840 So how is it that rugby, a sport supposedly built on its strong values 205 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:10.040 is able to treat some of its best, yet poorest players, 206 00:16:10.040 --> 00:16:13.280 people like Rupeni and Sione, like raw commodities 207 00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:16.480 only to be exploited in what is now a global business. 208 00:16:20.560 --> 00:16:23.840 To find out, I've decided to travel back to the Pacific 209 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.040 to speak with those in charge of the game there and get their side of the story. 210 00:16:33.520 --> 00:16:37.960 My first stop is to Sione's homeland of Tonga, a nation that provides the most 211 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:40.160 professional contact sports athletes per capita in the world. 212 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:07.680 Here I am in Tongatapu, the northernmost point of Tonga. 213 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:14.160 It's where Abel Tasman first landed in 1643, the first 214 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.720 first European to ever set foot in these islands. 215 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:23.920 He was met just out here 500m off the coast by a sole canoe with 6 locals on board, 216 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:28.760 who he traded nails for coconuts water and pork. 217 00:17:28.760 --> 00:17:33.520 First real links I guess to colonisation here in the Pacific, 500 years ago. 218 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:42.080 'For many years now the people of Tonga have been united in friendship with the people of the British Commonwealth. 219 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:45.760 As all Tonga prepares to welcome Queen Elizabeth of the Commonwealth 220 00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:47.680 and His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh. 221 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:52.360 The two Queens meet as friends as they did on another great occasion at 222 00:17:52.360 --> 00:17:54.800 the coronation of Queen Elizabeth in London. 223 00:17:56.120 --> 00:18:00.560 By the early 1800s European settlers had arrived throughout the Pacific, 224 00:18:00.560 --> 00:18:03.840 bringing with them two components that became the cornerstone of life here in the islands. 225 00:18:03.840 --> 00:18:06.880 Christianity and Rugby. 226 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:41.800 The boardroom and the finances in the boardroom are stilll not being managed well. 227 00:18:41.800 --> 00:18:46.080 World Rugby, in my view, they need to hold people accountable that 228 00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:51.120 are representing them in the countries like Tonga because 229 00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:54.360 what's quite evident in professional rugby 230 00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:59.760 is that the games or the success of the team is won in the boardroom. 231 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.520 We have so many talented children. Because of eligibility rules 232 00:19:05.520 --> 00:19:09.400 they're locked up. That should never be the situation. 233 00:19:10.280 --> 00:19:18.320 At the 2019 Rugby World Cup, 42 players with Pacific heritage represented other nations. 234 00:19:18.320 --> 00:19:21.240 World Rugby currently operates a one nation for life rule, 235 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.280 forcing these players to give up a huge part of their identity. 236 00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:27.760 These players could choose to play for their island teams, 237 00:19:27.760 --> 00:19:31.520 but knowing that you've got villages, families and communities relying on the 238 00:19:31.520 --> 00:19:33.600 money being sent back from overseas rugby players, 239 00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:39.280 it can often feel selfish to play for your island team, knowing how little money you'll recieve. 240 00:19:40.320 --> 00:19:43.880 Born in Auckland to Tongan parents, Charles Piutau is a former All-Black 241 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:46.280 last playing for New Zealand five years ago. 242 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:52.040 Charles is hopeful the laws may change, so he can play with his brother who captains Tonga. 243 00:19:52.360 --> 00:19:56.320 I think the start of it was my parents had left their home country Tonga 244 00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:58.760 to come to New Zealand for a better opportunity for us kids. 245 00:19:58.760 --> 00:20:05.680 I think financially, growing up in a family and being the youngest out of 10, 246 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.120 seeing the sacrifices that my parents have made, 247 00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:12.160 you're always going to be like financially these teams that have more 248 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:15.120 the Australias and New Zealands, you're going to gravitate towards that 249 00:20:15.120 --> 00:20:20.320 I count myself very fortunate and lucky to be able to put on the black jersey and represent New Zealand. 250 00:20:20.320 --> 00:20:29.440 I guess there's possibly another opportunity as well to represent another country of my heritage. 251 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:31.120 and something that is very close to me. 252 00:20:31.120 --> 00:20:35.960 And on top of that, my brother's been playing for Tonga for a while now. 253 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:41.760 Being a Pacific Islander is always helping our community or giving back. 254 00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:47.840 Still one of the world's best players, Charles is unable to bring his experience back 255 00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:50.760 for the development and benefit of Tonga. 256 00:20:50.760 --> 00:20:57.480 But this wasn't always the case. Before 2001, players were able to represent a second eligible nation. 257 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:04.240 I was fortunate to be able to play both for the All Blacks and Manu Samoa, 258 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.160 and what a privilege it was to go back. 259 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.680 Once you play one test match that's it, you're stuck for life. 260 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:12.640 How can that be a good, positive thing? 261 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:14.080 It's all about growing the game, 262 00:21:14.080 --> 00:21:15.400 and if you've got something to give 263 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.760 and are still able to give it, why do they stop you? 264 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.520 Why should they stop you from giving it? 265 00:21:21.520 --> 00:21:25.680 There are a group of nations that are obviously the top ones, 266 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:30.000 with all the money and all the resources. They've been successful forever, 267 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.600 and it's a bit about protecting that. 268 00:21:32.600 --> 00:21:38.520 If they're truly about growing the game globally, 269 00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:44.040 you've got to look at other options and you've got to look at them with open eyes. 270 00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:01.440 They galvanised the Rugby League World Cup. 271 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.800 no one knew the League World Cup was on, until Tonga played. 272 00:22:04.800 --> 00:22:09.320 I was like 'oh here we go again, Australia's gonna thrash everyone'. 273 00:22:09.320 --> 00:22:11.200 Oh, no. Here's Tonga. 274 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:15.200 You see the impact of these players coming back with experience of a professional environment, 275 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:20.200 getting the right coaches and being in a structured competition like the NRL. 276 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:22.440 It's very professional. 277 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:28.040 These players know what a professional is, they know how to play at that elite level. 278 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.560 My hope is that it does change. 279 00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:35.960 Because if it doesn't, I think all the Samoans, Tongans and Fijians will go to play League. 280 00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:41.800 Because I think League is on the right track, they're doing something better than Rugby Union. 281 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:47.480 The impact is real. When I used to play, we used to beat Japan by 30-odd points. 282 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:51.840 Now it's the other way round and Japan have got four or five Tongans. 283 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:55.560 Yes they are being developed overseas, through the competitions overseas, 284 00:22:55.560 --> 00:23:00.880 You can't tell me that you go to school in one country and then that country will be telling you 285 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:07.040 no you can't work for America, or so and so, because we schooled you here and you stay here. 286 00:23:07.040 --> 00:23:15.120 No, that mentality is again, not different from slave owners. You don't own the person. 287 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:21.120 Rugby Academy Tonga is funded by the biggest player agency in the world. 288 00:23:22.560 --> 00:23:26.200 With other branches in Fiji and Samoa, they are one of a number of scouts and 289 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:31.360 professional clubs who link overseas teams and schools with children and players throughout the Pacific. 290 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:35.680 For the first time last year we've had a school from New Zealand ask for a 13-year old. 291 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:37.240 It's too young. 292 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.600 I've started seeing contracts signed by kids now, 293 00:23:41.600 --> 00:23:48.120 coming out of here that they're not to play for Tonga, they're to play for Japan. 294 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.520 This is Tonga Rugby Headquarters. 295 00:23:59.520 --> 00:24:04.160 With two empty rooms, two laptops and no training facilities of their own, 296 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:07.000 it's easy to see why players would move to play overseas. 297 00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:12.360 all of this makes it even more remarkable that Tonga are ranked 13th in the world. 298 00:24:13.840 --> 00:24:17.000 and with the union having so little money, Tonga haven't even 299 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:21.200 been able to rebuild their stadium damaged in a cyclone two years ago. 300 00:24:23.760 --> 00:24:29.280 With another storm approaching, I'm looking for a sheltered spot to meet with a man who ran Tonga Rugby for four years. 301 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.240 It is really, really tough. 302 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:43.760 Every year they're taking 40 players. The best 40 kids out of Tonga 303 00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:47.560 out of a rugby population of 12,000. 304 00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:53.200 At the end of it, we're just left with nothing, but if we have some sort of financial help 305 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.960 like an evenly distributed fund from World Rugby, 306 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.000 kids will have alternatives, they have options 307 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:04.200 to stay here and continue on playing, closer with their parents and 308 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.080 have better education, have better sporting facilities. 309 00:25:09.840 --> 00:25:13.840 In rugby, the host nation keeps 100% of the revenue from the game 310 00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:17.840 which is then equaled out when the reverse fixture happens at a later date. 311 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.160 However, very few of the bigger nations ever visit smaller teams, such as the Pacific Islands. 312 00:25:25.360 --> 00:25:28.800 Over the 10 years that I played for Samoa, of the top 10 teams 313 00:25:28.800 --> 00:25:32.920 only one team ever came and played us in Samoa and that was Scotland. 314 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.000 Nobody else ever came. 315 00:25:36.280 --> 00:25:38.920 And even if the bigger nations did visit the Pacific, 316 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:43.800 small crowds, cheap ticket pricing and having to pay the air fare of the opposition 317 00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:46.320 means the hosting costs wouldn't even be covered. 318 00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:56.920 This happened in 2016, when Samoa hosted the All Blacks and made a loss of $1m NZD. 319 00:26:00.560 --> 00:26:03.760 One potential solution would be to introduce a revenue share model, 320 00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:08.120 where the smaller nations will be given a fair share of the match revenue they are helping to generate. 321 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:12.680 The structure of that should be a worldwide thing. 322 00:26:13.360 --> 00:26:16.320 They should have the lion's share of the gate, yeah that make sense 323 00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:19.480 it's their home game, it's their sponsorship, it's their everything. 324 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:27.440 But an 80/20 split, it's not going to hurt England. 325 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:33.640 That will give much needed funding that Pacific Islands needs. 326 00:26:33.800 --> 00:26:36.240 We talk about values, rugby values. 327 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:41.560 Where are the rugby values in poaching players from another nation? 328 00:26:41.560 --> 00:26:49.280 Where are the rugby values in taking £4m from a rugby match for your gate receipts and your broadcast, 329 00:26:49.280 --> 00:26:53.360 not even sharing them with an impoverished nation? 330 00:26:53.360 --> 00:26:59.840 So much so that say when Samoa come over, they have to do a public appeal for funds, 331 00:26:59.840 --> 00:27:02.320 when Twickenham are making £4-5m? 332 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:07.360 Fiji versus England in 2016, Twickenham is sold out with 82,000 people, 333 00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:11.080 England players get paid £22,000 and the Fiji players are getting £400. 334 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:14.080 I'm shocked by that and I think it's massively unfair 335 00:27:14.080 --> 00:27:15.240 that's something that needs to be rectified. 336 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.440 Because if we're not going to even tour there 337 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:20.280 there should be an agreement you guys get funded. Because I remember, 338 00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:24.800 when we played actually Samoa, your last game, you know we talked about it in the week 339 00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:28.680 saying can we split our match fees? How do we do this? How do we organise this? 340 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:31.840 And the problem is, everyone said it and then just left it and didn't do anything about it. 341 00:27:31.840 --> 00:27:32.880 That's the truth. 342 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:38.760 The right thing would have been to share our match fees and you guys should get exactly what is owed to you. 343 00:27:38.760 --> 00:27:42.600 And I think the fact that you come over to us there's no way that you should keep the money, it should be shared. 344 00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:47.080 I don't think it's fair that a team coming to Twickenham 345 00:27:47.080 --> 00:27:50.360 to play that is providing a spectacle, 346 00:27:50.600 --> 00:27:54.160 which all these Pacific Island teams make the game exciting they make the physicality, 347 00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:00.160 they should be remunerated and I think that should be part of ticket sales from the day. 348 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.800 Everyone puts their hand up says they're going to do good stuff and 349 00:28:03.800 --> 00:28:07.000 then nothing happens because no one does anything about it and everyone just forgets about it 350 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.840 and we do a huddle of solidarity and we'll go 'with you brother' 351 00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:12.480 and then we f**k off and play you know New Zealand next week. 352 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.360 That's the way it goes. It's a shame but it is the way it goes. 353 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:20.880 And that's what happens in rugby. We're told what to do, 354 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:23.720 where to be and if you stick your head up and say like 355 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:28.520 you've experienced because I know I've seen stuff about threats to you, your family. 356 00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:30.720 You're suddenly seen as a trouble maker. 357 00:28:43.080 --> 00:28:46.280 I've never wanted to be seen as a troublemaker, 358 00:28:46.280 --> 00:28:50.040 I've always loved this game and I would have loved to have played for longer. 359 00:28:50.040 --> 00:28:52.240 But I've always wanted to do the right thing. 360 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:58.600 But speaking out, particularly against authority isn't easy in a culture like Samoa, 361 00:28:58.600 --> 00:29:04.440 where respect for elders means everything and if you do speak out, quite often 362 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:05.440 you're shot down. 363 00:29:08.360 --> 00:29:11.120 'I explained to them that their function is to play, 364 00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:14.120 you don't get yourself involved in management.' 365 00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:20.880 I think he ought to be taken to a mental confinement, he is utter stupid. 366 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:08.840 My first stop in Samoa is to my Dad's villages of Falefa and Faleapuna, 367 00:30:08.840 --> 00:30:12.080 where I want to find out how me speaking out against authority has affected my 368 00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:14.200 Dad and his role as village Chief. 369 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:20.440 Upon arrival, the village elders welcome me back with a traditional 'ava' drinking ceremony, 370 00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:24.640 and in return, Dad and I present some new rugby kits for our village team. 371 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:39.320 Awesome! 372 00:30:41.800 --> 00:30:45.520 This is the village where my Mum grew up, and 373 00:30:45.520 --> 00:30:49.200 Daniel's Grandmother and when you play rugby everybody knows who you are 374 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:51.200 especially when you represent the country. 375 00:30:53.840 --> 00:30:56.720 It's a great honour for our families and the village. 376 00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:02.240 When that whole issue rise with the Prime Minister and all that stuff 377 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:07.080 with your position to speak out what you feel is right, I think that's 378 00:31:07.080 --> 00:31:11.080 your passion and as long as you do it right. 379 00:31:11.080 --> 00:31:16.120 To me as a parent, I was disappointed with some of the words that 380 00:31:16.120 --> 00:31:19.640 the Prime Minister has been saying towards you. I felt like you've been 381 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:21.520 serving the country more than 10 years. 382 00:31:21.600 --> 00:31:26.320 It's the words that he's been selecting to use, 383 00:31:26.320 --> 00:31:29.960 it's offending. To me, it's offending. 384 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:32.800 I check out what you say, what you write and what you put it on the 385 00:31:32.800 --> 00:31:37.200 paper sometimes, I'll have the right to voice my opinion to you, 386 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:40.840 to guide you to make sure you stay on the line with what you say. 387 00:31:42.560 --> 00:31:45.600 Dad's blessing is encouraging me to push on, and it's now time to visit the 388 00:31:45.600 --> 00:31:48.760 Samoa Rugby Union to try and get some answers. 389 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.320 Talofa , is this the Prime Minister's office? 390 00:31:53.840 --> 00:31:55.480 'Yes this is the.' 391 00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:58.880 My name is Daniel Leo, from Pacific Rugby Players Welfare, 392 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.200 I'm just ringing to try and confirm an appointment 393 00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.800 to interview the Prime Minister, the Chairman of the Samoan Rugby Union? 394 00:32:11.040 --> 00:32:12.000 Hello? 395 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:13.920 'Daniel?' 396 00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:21.200 'Can you ring me again tomorrow?' 397 00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:27.160 Not knowing if the Chairman will agree to see me, 398 00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:29.800 I'm heading to the Rugby Union to speak with the CEO. 399 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:41.920 The governance isn't good enough, you've got politics involved 400 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.720 people say that we can't run our own unions 401 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:47.600 we're not capable of running our own unions, 402 00:32:47.600 --> 00:32:51.360 what are your responses to those? 403 00:32:51.360 --> 00:32:58.240 We've had issues. I can admit that. We've had issues within the Union over the years. 404 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:05.440 I think a lot of decisions that's been made within the Union is 405 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.400 basically due to our financial constraints. 406 00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:14.320 We can't employ top professional people into the Union, we can't afford to pay them. 407 00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:21.600 To roll out our programmes at the moment it's around about $11m tala to fulfil our programmes. 408 00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:32.400 60% is locally funded with a few here and there from a few overseas partners. 409 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.680 and then the other 30% is funded by World Rugby. 410 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:40.440 But we're in a difficult situation for us because 411 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:45.920 we can't get those sizeable sponsors because we don't play that many games. 412 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.400 Without Government, there would be no Rugby Union in Samoa and that's the honest truth. 413 00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:57.600 It's crazy that for a nation whose assets provide so much to the game's global economy, 414 00:33:57.600 --> 00:34:01.040 they have to rely on public funds and donations just to survive. 415 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:06.480 I believe the reason for this lies in the makeup of the World Rugby Council 416 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.200 who make decisions on things such as eligibility laws 417 00:34:09.200 --> 00:34:12.160 and who elect the 'Executive Committee' to deal with the financial side of the game. 418 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.880 The 10 sides that play in the 6 Nations and Rugby Championship competitions 419 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:19.920 are known as Tier 1 nations. 420 00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.720 and with 3 votes each, make up 60% of the council. 421 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:30.640 The other 120 rugby playing nations are known as Tier 2 and 3, or 'emerging nations'. 422 00:34:30.640 --> 00:34:35.320 They have 9 votes between them and represent less than 20% of the council. 423 00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:42.440 At Pacific Rugby Welfare, we'd actually launched a campaign in 2018 424 00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:44.600 to make the World Rugby voting system fairer. 425 00:34:44.600 --> 00:34:48.160 Unbelievably, two weeks after the launch, 426 00:34:48.160 --> 00:34:51.840 Both the Samoa and Fiji Unions came out and condemned us. 427 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.880 The only reason I can imagine that do something like that 428 00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.080 is because they were getting pressure on them from World Rugby 429 00:34:58.080 --> 00:35:01.720 not to cooperate with a group that's outside of their funding circle. 430 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:06.320 Do you think it's right that the players associations are funded by World Rugby? 431 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:11.040 We do currently have an investment agreement with World Rugby 432 00:35:11.040 --> 00:35:16.320 that comes with special conditions. Unfortunately, like anything else that 433 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.160 that's funded from the outside, whether it's in 434 00:35:19.160 --> 00:35:23.400 government or any organisation/donor. They don't 435 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:27.600 just hand you the money, it comes with special conditions that 436 00:35:27.600 --> 00:35:30.560 you have to apply in an agreement you know it's a two-way thing. 437 00:35:31.080 --> 00:35:35.400 If there's anything going forward that you feel that 438 00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.520 if that conflict of interest is in the way with their funding, 439 00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:40.080 please do get in touch. 440 00:35:40.080 --> 00:35:46.840 The chair is very supportive of the issues that you ping World Rugby on! 441 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:49.560 They can't they can't really say anything but you know... 442 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:55.840 The CEO saying the Samoa Rugby Union were quietly supportive of us, 443 00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:59.280 but couldn't say anything against World Rugby, made me really start to question 444 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.400 the relationship the governing body has with its member unions. 445 00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:07.080 and later that day, whilst watching the local sevens tournament, 446 00:36:07.080 --> 00:36:11.160 Sina Retzlaff, one of Samoa Rugby's first female board members came and found me, 447 00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:14.880 wanting to talk about that very relationship between Samoa and World Rugby. 448 00:36:16.600 --> 00:36:20.200 You can't be in a development partner relationship 449 00:36:20.200 --> 00:36:22.120 with an organisation who's going to 450 00:36:22.120 --> 00:36:25.520 hang the carrot of we're going to pull our money on you. 451 00:36:25.520 --> 00:36:29.120 It's like being married to someone who threatens to divorce you every week. 452 00:36:29.120 --> 00:36:34.160 Because you can say that we're on par and you can say that we 453 00:36:34.160 --> 00:36:36.240 we respect you and we're partners in this, 454 00:36:36.240 --> 00:36:40.320 but if you're a partner that doesn't make me feel that we're on that the 455 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:45.160 balance of power has been has been equaled out, then that's not the 456 00:36:45.160 --> 00:36:48.440 reality of the relationship. And I say this as an example because 457 00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:53.760 I've been at the SRU office, for example, 458 00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:58.240 And when I'm insisting on something, the answer has been 459 00:36:58.240 --> 00:36:59.800 but what if they pull out? 460 00:37:00.040 --> 00:37:03.280 And personally, go. 461 00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:06.920 If you have criteria that you don't want to listen to us about, 462 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:12.160 and you say that they are make or break for you World Rugby, 463 00:37:12.160 --> 00:37:14.680 and you need to pull out. 464 00:37:14.680 --> 00:37:18.760 What's stopping you from pulling out? 465 00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:19.760 'They need us'. 466 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:23.160 So tell the world that you're pulling out of Samoa, 467 00:37:23.160 --> 00:37:26.680 and we'll tell you how many Samoans are so good at this game, 468 00:37:26.680 --> 00:37:29.360 that you'll lose out on, or will probably back us. 469 00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:52.640 I'm starting to think the Samoan Union is in a really difficult position. 470 00:37:52.640 --> 00:37:56.320 they're scared of speaking up against World Rugby for fear of losing their funding, 471 00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:00.280 and therefore have to rely on the government to keep them from bankruptcy. 472 00:38:04.560 --> 00:38:06.520 'Good evening.' 473 00:38:06.520 --> 00:38:11.000 Here in Samoa, we have a curfew between 7:30 and 8pm, 474 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:16.880 where everybody has to go inside and it's a time of prayer and Bible reading 475 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:20.240 and self-reflection so yeah, no one's out on the streets, 476 00:38:20.240 --> 00:38:24.880 they close down all the streets and these guys around us are the guys that police that. 477 00:38:31.680 --> 00:38:34.880 8pm, curfew has lifted and we're free to drive through again. 478 00:38:44.240 --> 00:38:49.000 'Your interview with the PM is at 2pm this afternoon, 479 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:50.120 on the programme'. 480 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:52.200 Yes, okay, great. So that's confirmed? 481 00:38:53.160 --> 00:38:53.720 'Yep.' 482 00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:55.920 Okay, thank you very much. We'll see you at 2 o'clock. 483 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.080 'You're welcome, bye.' 484 00:38:57.080 --> 00:38:58.800 Yep. Thank you, bye-bye. 485 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.400 Right, let's go and speak to the man himself, two o'clock. 486 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:11.400 I came to Samoa not knowing if our Prime Minister would agree to see me 487 00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:16.560 especially as I've been so outspoken about his involvement with Samoa Rugby in the past. 488 00:39:16.560 --> 00:39:19.400 So not wanting to worry my family, I haven't told them about this meeting, 489 00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:23.600 but with some of the personal threats still clear in my head, 490 00:39:23.600 --> 00:39:27.120 I'm starting to wonder if coming to the government building on my own is a good idea. 491 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:41.840 Do we need to knock now or what? I don't know what the procedure is. 492 00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:43.560 It's his office, is it? 493 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:55.920 Whilst sitting in the waiting room, the Prime Minister's Secretary came 494 00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:59.680 and said that he wanted to speak to me off camera. 495 00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:04.760 He told me he no longer wanted to give the interview, but instead would give his answers in writing. 496 00:40:08.240 --> 00:40:10.560 However, after explaining how far I'd come 497 00:40:10.560 --> 00:40:13.520 and that this was an opportunity to give his side of the story, 498 00:40:13.520 --> 00:40:15.360 he changed his mind. 499 00:40:16.200 --> 00:40:19.280 Well thanks again for giving us your time, 500 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:23.720 could you just expand on some of the challenges faced by Samoan Rugby? 501 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:27.840 You know, the whole thing is unfair. 502 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.440 We are helping to replenish 503 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:35.480 the huge bank accounts of the big boys, Tier 1, 504 00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:40.440 and we are constantly in bankruptcy. 505 00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:46.320 We have now four years of clean, audit opinion, 506 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:51.840 which is a major feat for our Union. 507 00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:00.800 We need to look more positively at the issue of eligiblity. 508 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:08.720 I can understand the reluctance of the Tier 1 countries. 509 00:41:08.720 --> 00:41:15.000 The reluctance is due to a very selfish and narrow interpretation, 510 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:24.520 That is not looking at the wider goal of building the game. 511 00:41:25.040 --> 00:41:29.000 And I must thank you for this interview. 512 00:41:29.640 --> 00:41:31.600 Faafetai lava, thank you very much, 513 00:41:31.600 --> 00:41:36.800 I know we always haven't always seen eye to eye on certain issues, 514 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:39.720 but I appreciate you having me here. 515 00:41:39.720 --> 00:41:44.880 Look, whatever you can do to help us, very good. 516 00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:49.160 It's interesting I think I came here to the islands 517 00:41:49.160 --> 00:41:52.560 thinking that the involvement of politics was a really bad thing, 518 00:41:52.560 --> 00:41:59.000 and as we've gone along you realise that there's no other option. 519 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:05.200 The financial aspect of rugby is too far skewed for it to be any other way. 520 00:42:05.200 --> 00:42:11.200 The fact that as we left, he asked me 'anything you can do Dan to help would be hugely appreciated' 521 00:42:11.200 --> 00:42:14.720 sort of got me realising that 522 00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:19.240 they're desperate, Samoan rugby is desperate and Pacific Island rugby is desperate. 523 00:42:19.240 --> 00:42:22.160 So yeah, what the answer is, I'm not sure just yet, 524 00:42:22.160 --> 00:42:26.240 but hopefully us being here, us documenting this 525 00:42:26.240 --> 00:42:29.360 and really highlighting these issues is going to make a difference in some way. 526 00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:35.920 Upon leaving the Prime Minister's office, I can't help but feel I may have fallen 527 00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.520 victim to a few of our Chairman's mind games. 528 00:42:38.520 --> 00:42:43.840 This was a man who was used to deflecting pressure and wriggling out of tricky situations. 529 00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:46.000 but he raised some good points. 530 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:50.240 4 years of clean accounts show Samoan Rugby is headed in the right direction. 531 00:42:50.680 --> 00:42:54.240 Yet, I'm still convinced Pacific Rugby, as a whole, would be better off without the 532 00:42:54.240 --> 00:42:56.280 interference and dependence on government. 533 00:42:57.640 --> 00:43:03.040 So, is the situation the fault of the island unions or is the system set up for them to fail? 534 00:43:05.560 --> 00:43:08.920 We are misdirected in where our disappointment 535 00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:11.160 and where our anger and where we feel 536 00:43:11.160 --> 00:43:15.200 there needs to be change. Yes, the Samoan Rugby Union have problems. 537 00:43:15.200 --> 00:43:18.080 They get these petty little handouts from World Rugby, 538 00:43:18.080 --> 00:43:22.640 and yet once again, like we know, we've sold out Twickenham on non-world cup years 539 00:43:22.640 --> 00:43:27.240 we sell out all of our World Cup games, we make them millions. 540 00:43:27.240 --> 00:43:32.680 We actually play games where we get nothing from it. That is ridiculous. 541 00:43:32.680 --> 00:43:41.160 Rugby has never been the leading moral savior of of human rights, it's never protected human rights. 542 00:43:41.160 --> 00:43:45.400 Remember, rugby used to go to South Africa throughout apartheid, 543 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:50.040 All Blacks had to go and if you took a brown guy you had to be an honorary 'white'. 544 00:43:50.040 --> 00:43:53.600 people are just ignorant to blaming it on the Samoa Rugby Union, 545 00:43:53.600 --> 00:43:59.040 There is a bigger enemy here, there's a bigger problem here, and that is World Rugby. 546 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:06.480 As my time in Samoa is coming to an end, I can't help but feel we're being taken advantage of. 547 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:12.960 Our history of player revolts, our corrupt unions, and our government interference 548 00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:16.920 seem the perfect excuse for the Tier 1 nations not to pay us our fair share. 549 00:44:18.720 --> 00:44:21.880 But are these nations deliberately allowing this to happen in the Pacific, 550 00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.320 out of fear of losing control of the sport? 551 00:44:26.120 --> 00:44:29.040 I'm here at Mount Vaea, on the way up to Robert Louis Stevenson's grave, 552 00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:35.080 the famous Scottish author who wrote 'Treasure Island', and was buried here in the 1890s. 553 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.840 Stevenson was a much loved figure among the Samoan people, who stood up against 554 00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:45.560 the colonial powers at the time, Britain, America and Germany, 555 00:44:45.560 --> 00:44:49.000 who divided and exploited the local population to gain control of the region. 556 00:44:52.600 --> 00:44:56.240 I can't help but compare colonialism to what's happening in rugby. 557 00:44:56.240 --> 00:45:00.240 Our resources have been continuously extracted with very little ever given back. 558 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:07.560 Here it is, made it! 559 00:45:09.160 --> 00:45:10.400 What a legend. 560 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:15.360 I love back then that he came to Samoa and was anti-colonial. 561 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:18.160 He would have been so unpopular. 562 00:45:18.720 --> 00:45:22.120 Probably a bit like us making this documentary with World Rugby. 563 00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.760 It's now time for me to head back to Europe. 564 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.960 With everything I've seen and heard here, I need to meet with World Rugby, 565 00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:32.000 to tell them what I've learned and hear their side of the story. 566 00:45:34.720 --> 00:45:37.160 But being outside of their funding circle, and their past 567 00:45:37.160 --> 00:45:39.760 refusal to acknowledge Pacific Rugby Welfare, 568 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:43.560 I don't even know if they'll agree to speak to me, let alone record an interview. 569 00:45:53.200 --> 00:45:55.760 'It's being touted as the largest shakeup in modern rugby history. 570 00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:59.720 The biggest problem so far, The Pacific Island nations locked out competely, don't get a look in.' 571 00:45:59.720 --> 00:46:05.720 'It would include just 12 nations, the current 6 Nations and the Rugby Championship countries, 572 00:46:05.720 --> 00:46:08.480 with Japan and the US brought in. 573 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:14.800 And it's big money for those in the exclusive club, reportedly up to $14m per nation each season.' 574 00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:19.000 'Only the 12 nations that have been included will will develop, the rest won't 575 00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:20.280 including the Pacific Islands.' 576 00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:22.600 'Does rugby exploit the Pacific Islands? 577 00:46:22.600 --> 00:46:23.360 Yes.' 578 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:27.920 'They're the teams that produce the best rugby players in the world, hands down. 579 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:31.160 I really, really hope that it doesn't happen.' 580 00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:38.960 'Pacific rugby players are threatening to boycott the World Cup this year if plans for a new world competition go ahead.' 581 00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:44.040 As a player's association, your strongest point of leverage is really not to play, 582 00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:45.800 and we believe that this, 583 00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:51.760 this announcement strikes enough worry for that to be a real option.' 584 00:47:02.600 --> 00:47:05.600 We've been filming this documentary for about 2 years now, 585 00:47:05.600 --> 00:47:08.240 and the whole time trying to get an interview with World Rugby 586 00:47:08.240 --> 00:47:10.160 has been really difficult. 587 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:13.680 Unbelievably, I've just had an email from the CEO, Brett Gosper, 588 00:47:13.680 --> 00:47:17.520 this morning saying he's in London and willing to do an interview. 589 00:47:17.520 --> 00:47:21.280 So I just rang up a mate to come and look after Toby, 590 00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:24.360 and this could be the only opportunity I get to speak with them. 591 00:47:27.040 --> 00:47:31.040 The last time I spoke to World Rugby's CEO was in a live TV interview, 592 00:47:31.040 --> 00:47:34.440 when I challenged him for standing off on the big issues affecting Pacific rugby. 593 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:37.160 'But of course there's an economic benefit to the players concerned.' 594 00:47:37.160 --> 00:47:38.720 I don't think that's good enough Brett. 595 00:47:38.720 --> 00:47:40.120 'Okay, there's an economic...' 596 00:47:40.120 --> 00:47:43.280 I don't think that's good enough that you're letting people make decisions who 597 00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:45.200 don't have a professional background. 598 00:47:45.200 --> 00:47:48.080 If you want to be successful, you've got to know what success looks like. 599 00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.120 This time round, I feel I have a much clearer view on the challenges facing Pacific Island rugby, 600 00:47:54.120 --> 00:47:57.120 and more importantly, what the solutions are. 601 00:47:57.120 --> 00:47:59.200 We need a hand up not necessarily a handout. 602 00:47:59.200 --> 00:48:01.800 I just see World Rugby as just a ghost that's in the air, 603 00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:03.920 I haven't really come across any of them. 604 00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:08.000 It is a universal human right, declared by the United Nations 605 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:11.080 that you have the right to change your nationality. 606 00:48:11.080 --> 00:48:13.360 My problem is that you don't in rugby. 607 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:18.480 How these guys get on the boards and get into positions of real power 608 00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:24.480 in the Pacific Island unions, I think there needs to be some stronger directive from World Rugby. 609 00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:27.760 Brett Gosper would not be CEO if he had gone to prison for manslaughter. 610 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:32.160 The unfair voting system, that's bollocks, frankly. We all know that it's rubbish. 611 00:48:32.160 --> 00:48:38.120 It is an uneven playing field, we're battling a fight that I don't see changes. 612 00:48:38.120 --> 00:48:43.000 Until we get real, and until we give those nations a fair chance, 613 00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:48.440 rugby basically can hang his head in shame, because it is not fulfilling its own values. 614 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:55.880 Just firstly, could you just explain what you see as the biggest challenges facing the Pacific 615 00:48:55.880 --> 00:48:58.080 and the development of Pacific Island rugby? 616 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:02.440 I think the biggest challenge is for the players to stay long enough in their country to be 617 00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:05.760 captured by their country and represent their country as they wish. 618 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:07.480 So, just from a personal point of view, 619 00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:12.080 Do you ever see any of the Pacific Island sides, Tonga and Samoa 620 00:49:12.080 --> 00:49:17.360 particularly ever achieving the 3-vote status? 621 00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:21.320 Maybe not while I'm here. 622 00:49:21.520 --> 00:49:24.360 But I think it's possible though yeah, I do think it's possible. 623 00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:27.320 I mean it's not easy, but it is possible. 624 00:49:27.720 --> 00:49:33.320 Would a one nation, one vote model not be more fair? 625 00:49:33.320 --> 00:49:37.080 Well it doesn't really reflect either the history 626 00:49:37.080 --> 00:49:42.800 or maybe to a certain extent the economics contribution to the game at this point in time. 627 00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:48.280 Certainly, um, a lot of the one nation, one vote 628 00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:54.880 Can often, um, create issues of of managing all of those numbers of countries. 629 00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:57.840 What are your thoughts on the involvement of politicians? 630 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.960 It's too simplistic to say they shouldn't be involved or they should be involved, 631 00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:03.920 what's important is when they're involved, they're involved constructively. 632 00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:05.400 We see mostly that. 633 00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:08.280 And when it does manifest itself in a negative way, 634 00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:12.040 what sort of accountability is there to World Rugby? 635 00:50:12.040 --> 00:50:17.160 Well it's very hard for us to hold a Prime Minister of a country accountable. 636 00:50:17.160 --> 00:50:21.560 We completely agree with and adhere to the sovereignty of each of those 637 00:50:21.560 --> 00:50:23.000 unions to decide their own fate. 638 00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:26.280 and hopefully they're making the right calls for the sport in their regions. 639 00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:28.280 It's quite intimidating as a player to have 640 00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:31.040 your Prime Minister as the Chairman. 641 00:50:31.040 --> 00:50:34.360 One thing he did mention, was this 642 00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:38.960 idea of a profit share even, it was a fraction you know 5 or 10% of the gate takings at Twickenham 643 00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:40.280 would make a huge difference. 644 00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:42.200 Yeah it's true and this comes up every year. 645 00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:47.360 We've perhaps fallen short a little bit in that area but it's a domain we don't like to get into. 646 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:50.840 It's difficult for us to impose on other unions, 647 00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:54.440 a percentage of gate or otherwise, 648 00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:57.080 that may have knock-on effects in other relationships they have with other 649 00:50:57.080 --> 00:51:01.640 nations and where do you draw the line? And what exactly is a Tier 2 nation? 650 00:51:01.640 --> 00:51:05.800 Again, this is the sovereignty of the receiving nation to 651 00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:08.360 manage their affairs as best they can as well. 652 00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:12.040 We've not come up with a solution, that doesn't impinge on 653 00:51:12.040 --> 00:51:15.960 the individual contractual rights of those unions setting up those games. 654 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:19.800 When I was in the Pacific, a lot of the guys there said that 655 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:23.240 they'd like World Rugby regulation or just the bigger nations, 656 00:51:23.240 --> 00:51:25.720 to look more favorably on areas like eligibility. 657 00:51:25.720 --> 00:51:30.760 We've debated this a lot in council meetings and so on. 658 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:33.800 There just does not seem to be the... 659 00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:35.800 some countries are favorable to that, others aren't. 660 00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:41.280 Overall, there seems to not be the appetite for that return to players. 661 00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:45.480 This one country approach to rugby is very tidy, 662 00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:50.000 The unions themselves, the members, are not overwhelmingly in favour of that return, 663 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:54.720 and it's very hard just to say to people look, think bigger, 664 00:51:54.720 --> 00:51:58.200 think bigger and don't be so small-minded and only think of your own union. 665 00:51:58.200 --> 00:52:03.080 Do you think those values are being lived out by 666 00:52:03.080 --> 00:52:06.880 some of those nations, or is it just protectionism? 667 00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:13.680 It's a difficult one, because at the end of the day, I understand 668 00:52:13.680 --> 00:52:18.840 why those unions are protective about what they have and their remit is to look after their own unions. 669 00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:22.360 Look, I do think the values of rugby, generally, 670 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:25.440 and we go out of our way to ensure that whether it's on the pitch or off the 671 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:29.400 pitch that they're fulfilled and that they're promoted. 672 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:35.160 Look, I just think it's disappointing 673 00:52:35.160 --> 00:52:38.480 that we didn't win win the argument for everyone. 674 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:43.280 After meeting Brett, I too was disappointed. 675 00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:48.440 Disappointed that World Rugby won't take responsibility for the state of the game, 676 00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:52.200 and instead pass the buck on to the powerful Tier 1 nations. 677 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:56.920 For World Rugby to laugh at my thought of achieving equal voting power, 678 00:52:56.920 --> 00:53:00.240 and for the CEO to not even know what a Tier 2 nation was, 679 00:53:00.240 --> 00:53:02.040 shows how far behind the sport is. 680 00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:05.920 On the surface, rugby continues to present itself as 681 00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:10.720 following noble values, 'equality, fairness and sportsmanship' but 682 00:53:10.720 --> 00:53:15.320 underneath it seems nothing has changed since the colonial days of the Tier 1 countries' past. 683 00:53:16.680 --> 00:53:21.440 The reality is that rugby is treating the Pacific Islands and its players as a commodity, 684 00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:24.720 like any natural resource that is being exploited for profit. 685 00:53:26.520 --> 00:53:29.160 So, how can the Pacific Islands move forward? 686 00:53:29.560 --> 00:53:32.480 I believe there are 3 things that need to be done. 687 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:37.720 We need to be receiving our fair share of money we are helping others to earn. 688 00:53:37.720 --> 00:53:41.800 Rugby's funding model has trapped the islands into a handout mentality, 689 00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:46.120 where a reliance on small donations has stolen our ability to earn greater income. 690 00:53:47.560 --> 00:53:52.680 We also need the eligibility rules to change, so that we can access all of our players. 691 00:53:52.680 --> 00:53:57.160 Allowing a single change from a Tier 1 down to a Tier 2 nation of heritage 692 00:53:57.160 --> 00:54:00.360 would have an immediate effect on growing the global game, 693 00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:03.000 and best of all, it wouldn't cost a thing. 694 00:54:03.800 --> 00:54:08.720 Underpinning this all, is the fact there has to be changed to the way rugby is governed. 695 00:54:08.720 --> 00:54:12.840 We cannot continue to allow unelected, incompetent officals 696 00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:16.360 and government politicians, to use rugby for their own personal gain 697 00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:19.840 while the Tier 1 nations continue to hoard the majority of profits and power 698 00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:21.680 to the detriment of our nations. 699 00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:26.760 If we can achieve these things, the future of Pacific rugby looks bright, 700 00:54:27.080 --> 00:54:30.960 and rest assured, I won't give up on trying to improve the game we love.