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YTS.MX

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<i>[evocative music slowly rising]</i>

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<i>[birds twittering]</i>

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<i>I can still remember laying in my bed,</i>

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<i>my little night-light on,</i>
<i>crying over this.</i>

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<i>I was so overwhelmed by this story.</i>

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<i>Misha Defonseca checked every single box</i>

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<i>for the type of woman that we looked for</i>
<i>to interview on </i>Exceptional Women.

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<i>I'll just take a beat and then turn.</i>

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<i>I got you. Okay.</i>

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<i>Stand by.</i>

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<i>Her story originated in Belgium,</i>

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<i>but she was living</i>
<i>in Millis, Massachusetts,</i>

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<i>20 miles away from the radio station.</i>

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<i>You wanna give me a countdown?</i>

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<i>[radio producer] Three, two, one.</i>

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<i>♪ </i>{\an8}Magic 106.7…<i> ♪</i>

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<i>[Candy O'Terry]</i> line:5%
Sometimes a story is so astonishing

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<i>it seems unbelievable.</i>

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<i>Sometimes the sadness one person feels</i>
<i>is so big, it's overpowering.</i>

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<i>And sometimes courage is so monumental,</i>
<i>it humbles you.</i>

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<i>[Pat Cunningham] Back in the late '80s,</i>
<i>we had been living in Millis for 37 years.</i>

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<i>Pretty much everybody knew everybody.</i>

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<i>And we had new neighbors.</i>

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<i>They were a couple from Belgium,</i>
<i>Maurice and Misha.</i>

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<i>There's a saying in Millis,</i>
<i>"Small town, big family."</i>

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<i>It's a small-knit community,</i>
<i>and we became friends.</i>

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<i>[cat meows and purrs]</i>

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<i>You want a little kiss?</i>

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<i>[Pat] Misha was a very nice person.</i>
<i>Very friendly, um, caring.</i>

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<i>I had never met anybody that had</i>
<i>a relationship with animals as did Misha.</i>

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<i>There were many, many cats.</i>

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<i>[inaudible]</i>

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<i>Eccentric personality, for sure.</i>

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<i>I was there one day having tea,</i>

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<i>and she told me about her life</i>
<i>during the war and so forth.</i>

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<i>She went into some detail.</i>

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<i>[Candy over radio] </i>Let me bring you into
the life of a little girl named Misha.

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<i>She was waiting for her father</i>
<i>to pick her up from school one day,</i>

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<i>and he never came.</i>

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<i>[poignant music plays]</i>

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<i>My mouth just dropped on the floor.</i>

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<i>[Candy] </i>Instead a woman tapped her
on the shoulder and said, "Come with me."

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<i>This little girl was taken into a home</i>
<i>with a family she didn't know.</i>

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<i>She was given a new name</i>
<i>and different clothes.</i>

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<i>[explosions]</i>

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<i>[Candy]</i>
<i>When she was only seven years old,</i>

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<i>she walked alone for years,</i>

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<i>through Nazi-occupied countries,</i>
<i>across thousands of miles,</i>

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<i>in search of her deported parents.</i>

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<i>Misha is now a grown-up Jewish woman</i>

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<i>living in the Boston area.</i>
<i>She's a Holocaust survivor.</i>

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<i>And she's here</i>
<i>to tell her astonishing story</i>

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<i>of courage and survival.</i>

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<i>I think about my parents every day.</i>

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<i>My mother's name was Gerusha,</i>

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<i>and my father, Robert.</i>

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<i>Reuven in Hebrew.</i>

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<i>But our surname,</i>

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<i>I don't think I ever knew.</i>

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<i>I never discovered</i>
<i>what became of my parents.</i>

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<i>Not where they went or how they died.</i>

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<i>To this day, I do not know.</i>

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<i>[sustained, dramatic music plays]</i>

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<i>[director] Settle, everybody, please.</i>

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<i>So, Misha,</i>
<i>tell me the story of the first time</i>

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<i>you spoke about your experiences.</i>

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<i>[inhales deeply]</i>

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<i>One day…</i>

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<i>in a synagogue…</i>

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<i>on the occasion of Yom HaShoah,</i>
<i>the day of remembrance…</i>

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<i>I was asked to talk about me and my story.</i>

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<i>My husband convinced me to do it,</i>

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<i>telling me it would free me.</i>

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<i>When I went up to the bimah,</i>

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<i>I suddenly realized that</i>
<i>I was going to speak for the first time.</i>

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<i>I burst into tears.</i>

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<i>And slowly, snatches, I began to tell.</i>

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<i>I was cold and I had to keep going</i>

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<i>one step at a time.</i>

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<i>That is survival.</i>

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<i>You have to go forward</i>

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<i>one step at a time.</i>

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<i>I was, like, mesmerized.</i>

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<i>People never knew about her</i>
<i>being a Holocaust survivor.</i>

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<i>I had tears in my eyes.</i>

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<i>She was hungry. She was cold.</i>

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<i>She was lonely. She wanted her parents.</i>

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<i>How did this person survive?</i>

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<i>[Misha Defonseca] I told myself,</i>

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<i>"They think I'm alive."</i>

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<i>"If they think I'm alive,</i>

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<i>I can't let them down."</i>

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<i>"So I have to keep going."</i>

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<i>[Jane Daniel]</i>
<i>You could've heard a pin drop.</i>

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<i>Everybody there was just</i>
<i>completely entranced with her story.</i>

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<i>[people clamoring]</i>

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<i>[dramatic music playing]</i>

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<i>[Jane] I never expected that</i>
<i>I was gonna hear what I heard.</i>

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<i>When Misha was seven years old,</i>
<i>her parents were arrested by the Nazis,</i>

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<i>and she was told</i>
<i>that they had been deported.</i>

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<i>She was placed in the care</i>
<i>of a Catholic family</i>

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<i>called de Wael.</i>

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<i>So it was a safe place for her.</i>

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<i>They gave her a new identity,</i>
<i>Monique de Wael.</i>

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<i>The deception saved her.</i>

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<i>But she felt very alienated there.</i>

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<i>[delicate music playing]</i>

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<i>[Defonseca] I ended up in a family</i>
<i>that didn't love me.</i>

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<i>That's the least you could say.</i>

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<i>They hated me there.</i>
<i>They would call me worthless.</i>

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<i>[Jane] There was a grandfather in that</i>
<i>foster family who was kindly to her.</i>

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<i>[Defonseca] He told me</i>
<i>my parents were in Germany.</i>

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<i>He showed me with a compass</i>
<i>that it was in the east.</i>

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<i>So Germany didn't seem that far.</i>

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<i>[Jane] At that point,</i>
<i>Misha made a tremendous decision.</i>

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<i>It turned her whole life upside down.</i>

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<i>She decided, at the age of seven,</i>

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<i>she was going to walk to Germany</i>
<i>to find her parents.</i>

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<i>[pants]</i>

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<i>[Jane] So she took her little compass</i>
<i>and took some supplies</i>

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<i>and started heading east.</i>

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<i>I know exactly what I need.</i>

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<i>I need the basic.</i>

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<i>I need food, something to drink,</i>

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<i>to have a knife for protection.</i>

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<i>The first night I slept below a bridge.</i>

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<i>It was not far from home.</i>

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<i>[pants]</i>

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<i>It was absolutely naive</i>
<i>when I think about it today.</i>

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<i>On the map, Belgium seemed really small,</i>
<i>and Germany was really close.</i>

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<i>But if I went back, what would I find?</i>

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<i>[cries echoing]</i>

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<i>[Defonseca]</i>
<i>Nothing was waiting for me back there.</i>

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<i>And I had the idea to find my parents.</i>

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<i>So I had to finish it.</i>

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<i>[panting]</i>

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<i>Each time I approach a village,</i>
<i>I see devastation.</i>

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<i>[Jane] What she experienced as a child,</i>

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<i>having to hide from the Nazis,</i>

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<i>being alone in the forest,</i>

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<i>having to steal food,</i>

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<i>freezing temperatures…</i>

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<i>She had had a nightmare childhood.</i>

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<i>She had been traumatized by this.</i>

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<i>[Defonseca] Killing…</i>

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<i>I saw killing.</i>

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<i>[inaudible]</i>

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<i>[Defonseca] The dead people.</i>

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<i>It was really desperate.</i>

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<i>[plaintive music playing]</i>

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<i>[Defonseca]</i>
<i>I dreamed of seeing my parents.</i>

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<i>So I stayed deeply in the woods</i>
<i>away from the war.</i>

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<i>[Jane] When she was in the woods,</i>

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<i>she was away from people</i>
<i>being sent to concentration camps.</i>

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<i>She was away from the horror</i>
<i>that was happening in the cities.</i>

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<i>[plaintive music continues]</i>

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<i>-[Jane] She was with birds and flowers.</i>
<i>-[bird chirping]</i>

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<i>She said that's what saved her.</i>

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<i>[Defonseca]</i>
<i>I completely gave in to the wildlife.</i>

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<i>I saw this wonderful world with animals…</i>

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<i>in peace,</i>

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<i>living normally,</i>

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<i>eating just what they need,</i>

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<i>not killing more than they need.</i>

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<i>The balance was so… just right.</i>

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<i>With animals I didn't need any words.</i>

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<i>We were near each other</i>

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<i>in silence</i>

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<i>and understood without words.</i>

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<i>[Jane] I was thinking,</i>
<i>"This would make a fascinating book."</i>

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<i>It was the early '90s.</i>

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<i>I had a small publishing company.</i>

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<i>When I say small, I mean tiny.</i>

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<i>And I was looking around</i>
<i>for a new project.</i>

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<i>I was the first one</i>
<i>that came along and said,</i>

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<i>"Could we make this even more public?"</i>

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<i>"Can we take this to another level?"</i>

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<i>"I could probably</i>
<i>make something big out of this."</i>

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<i>"There's a market for this story."</i>

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<i>Because it had an amazing twist.</i>

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<i>[panting]</i>

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<i>I remember I had just been caught</i>
<i>by a farmer</i>

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<i>who saw me stealing food from his farm.</i>

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<i>[panting continues]</i>

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<i>I run away, full of fear.</i>

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<i>And he ran after me.</i>

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<i>When you run for your life,</i>
<i>you run very hard.</i>

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<i>[panting continues]</i>

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<i>And suddenly,</i>

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<i>I had the impression</i>
<i>that somebody was watching me.</i>

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<i>I turn around and…</i>

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<i>[twig snaps]</i>

195
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<i>And I see this magnificent animal.</i>

196
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<i>To me, it was like a huge dog.</i>

197
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<i>The wolf seemed alone</i>
<i>and I needed a companion.</i>

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<i>-[wolf howling]</i>
<i>-It was a beautiful gray she-wolf.</i>

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<i>[howling]</i>

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<i>I look in my bag for something to eat,</i>

201
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<i>and I give a piece to the wolf.</i>

202
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<i>And she doesn't take.</i>

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<i>[pensive music plays]</i>

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<i>[Defonseca] It takes a lot of time,</i>

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<i>but after a while,</i>
<i>we would walk in parallel.</i>

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<i>I was able to see its generosity…</i>

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<i>to appreciate the strength it had.</i>

208
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<i>I was able to live with it.</i>

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<i>She was like a mother to me.</i>

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<i>Much later, it was a whole pack of wolves.</i>

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<i>I don't know how long I was with them.</i>

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<i>They accepted me and protected me.</i>

213
00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:32.360
<i>That was an amazing twist in her story.</i>

214
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:34.560
<i>It was like, "Who ever hears of that?"</i>

215
00:13:35.280 --> 00:13:37.280
<i>"Wow, this is quite a story."</i>

216
00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:51.800
<i>[Joni Soffron] Misha was very different</i>
<i>from most people I'd ever met.</i>

217
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:55.320
<i>My first impression was,</i>

218
00:13:55.400 --> 00:13:59.080 line:5%
<i>"She probably should've been an animal."</i>

219
00:13:59.160 --> 00:14:00.920 line:5%
<i>"Or her spirit is an animal."</i>

220
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:09.760
<i>She spoke about being accepted by the pack</i>
<i>but being treated as a low-ranking member</i>

221
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:15.320
<i>and that she had to exhibit</i>
<i>submissive, low-ranking behavior</i>

222
00:14:15.400 --> 00:14:18.640
<i>in order to, uh… to be with them.</i>

223
00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:28.120
<i>Misha said the alpha male</i>
<i>typically would eat first.</i>

224
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.240
<i>The others would lay around the carcass</i>
<i>waiting for their turn.</i>

225
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:35.720
<i>They would leave little scraps,</i>

226
00:14:35.800 --> 00:14:39.800
<i>sort of in close proximity</i>
<i>to where she was</i>

227
00:14:39.880 --> 00:14:41.560
<i>when they were finished.</i>

228
00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:50.480
<i>[Defonseca]</i>
<i>Wolves eat ten kilos in one meal.</i>

229
00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:54.560
<i>The leftovers</i>
<i>were more than enough for me.</i>

230
00:14:54.640 --> 00:14:55.720
<i>Get it.</i>

231
00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:58.840
<i>Go get your dinner. It's right there.</i>

232
00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:01.640
<i>[Soffron] We became very good friends.</i>

233
00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:03.040
<i>You got it.</i>

234
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.200
<i>-You got it. Good girl!</i>
<i>-[Soffron] She visited multiple times.</i>

235
00:15:06.280 --> 00:15:08.560
<i>She would hand-feed them</i>
<i>the pieces of meat.</i>

236
00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:13.480
<i>I think they sensed in Misha</i>

237
00:15:13.560 --> 00:15:16.480
<i>that she was a friend,</i>
<i>as opposed to a foe.</i>

238
00:15:18.520 --> 00:15:22.520
<i>She had such a sense of being with them,</i>

239
00:15:23.400 --> 00:15:26.200
<i>that it's like she belonged in there.</i>

240
00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.000
<i>[evocative music playing]</i>

241
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.040
<i>[Defonseca]</i>
<i>I had no reason to stop walking.</i>

242
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:40.680
<i>It's what I did every day.</i>

243
00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:42.880
<i>[panting]</i>

244
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.720
<i>Day after day, month after month.</i>

245
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.200
<i>I have always the hope to find my parents,</i>

246
00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.280
<i>because I figure,</i>
<i>"I have survived till now,</i>

247
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:03.200
<i>and if I have survived as a child,</i>
<i>my parents </i>must<i> have survived."</i>

248
00:16:05.560 --> 00:16:07.880
<i>And this belief makes me continue.</i>

249
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.280
<i>[howls]</i>

250
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.840
<i>[Jane] I thought,</i>
<i>this is a moral narrative.</i>

251
00:16:14.680 --> 00:16:18.360
<i>It's the battle between good and evil,</i>
<i>the innocent child and the evil Nazis.</i>

252
00:16:18.920 --> 00:16:20.520
<i>And the child survived.</i>

253
00:16:21.920 --> 00:16:24.120
<i>It had mythic qualities to it.</i>

254
00:16:26.040 --> 00:16:29.200
<i>And it could take my publishing company,</i>
<i>Mount Ivy Press,</i>

255
00:16:29.280 --> 00:16:30.760
<i>from a little local happening</i>

256
00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.760
<i>to a worldwide happening.</i>

257
00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:39.000
<i>So I asked Misha if she would be</i>
<i>interested in publishing her stories.</i>

258
00:16:39.800 --> 00:16:42.000
<i>I brought it up very tentatively.</i>

259
00:16:45.520 --> 00:16:47.320
<i>With everything I went through,</i>

260
00:16:48.400 --> 00:16:50.680
<i>I'd learned to mistrust people.</i>

261
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.920
<i>[Jane] I don't think</i>
<i>she was terribly impressed with me,</i>

262
00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.080
<i>and there was no reason she should be.</i>

263
00:16:57.160 --> 00:17:00.200
<i>The kind of book I had published</i>
<i>before was a legal financial book,</i>

264
00:17:00.280 --> 00:17:01.880
<i>not exactly her kind of thing.</i>

265
00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:06.520
<i>[Defonseca]</i>
<i>For more than two years I refused,</i>

266
00:17:06.600 --> 00:17:11.560
<i>but my community and my friends</i>
<i>said to me, "Misha, do it."</i>

267
00:17:12.560 --> 00:17:14.200
<i>"For future generations."</i>

268
00:17:19.760 --> 00:17:21.600
<i>I found myself in hell again.</i>

269
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.680
<i>[uneasy music playing]</i>

270
00:17:32.760 --> 00:17:34.480
<i>[Jane] It was a painful process,</i>

271
00:17:34.560 --> 00:17:37.880
<i>but it was as if she was compelled</i>
<i>to tell her story.</i>

272
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.080
<i>As if it was some kind of a catharsis.</i>

273
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.760
<i>Everybody was stepping up.</i>

274
00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:48.160
<i>All the foreign publishers,</i>
<i>one after another, after another.</i>

275
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.120
<i>We were selling the translation rights</i>
<i>all over the world.</i>

276
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.880 line:5%
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

277
00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:57.040
<i>[Jane]</i>
<i>My agent came back from California,</i>

278
00:17:57.120 --> 00:18:01.480
<i>and said, "Disney wants this.</i>
<i>Period. They want this."</i>

279
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.600
<i>This was a case of a hot property.</i>

280
00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:10.840
<i>[The Oprah Winfrey Show</i>
<i>theme song playing]</i>

281
00:18:11.800 --> 00:18:13.080
<i>[audience cheers]</i>

282
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:19.080
<i>[Jane] When the book was published</i>
<i>in April 1997,</i>

283
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.800
<i>I said, "Let's see</i>
<i>if we can get Oprah to do this."</i>

284
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:26.640
<i>Okay, this is one of my all-time</i>
<i>favorite moments I'm having on television.</i>

285
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.840
<i>[Jane] At that time,</i>
<i>Oprah had her book club.</i>

286
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:31.040
<i>If you were one of Oprah's books,</i>

287
00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:33.720
<i>you had a guaranteed sale</i>
<i>of a million books.</i>

288
00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:35.760
<i>It was like… That was the jackpot.</i>

289
00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:38.080
<i>Then we'll meet back here in a month,</i>
<i>and we'll talk…</i>

290
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.040
<i>[Jane] And they said,</i>
<i>"We're interested."</i>

291
00:18:40.120 --> 00:18:40.960
<i>I love it!</i>

292
00:18:41.040 --> 00:18:43.680
<i>So that's a big, big, big deal.</i>

293
00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:45.960
<i>And we were beginning to say,</i>

294
00:18:46.040 --> 00:18:49.000
<i>"We are heading into</i>
<i>a monster bestseller here."</i>

295
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:56.640 line:5%
<i>[Soffron] Jane Daniel told me that Oprah</i>
<i>was considering doing the Misha story,</i>

296
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:02.400
<i>and could they send a production crew here</i>
<i>to film Misha in with a wolf.</i>

297
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.040
<i>So, I said, "Yes, of course."</i>

298
00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:16.240
<i>I told Misha</i>
<i>before we went into the enclosure,</i>

299
00:19:16.320 --> 00:19:19.880
<i>this was an adult wolf,</i>
<i>he was a very big boy.</i>

300
00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:21.480
<i>His name was Petro.</i>

301
00:19:21.560 --> 00:19:22.800
<i>[low growl]</i>

302
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:27.680
<i>[Jane] Nobody went in but Misha.</i>

303
00:19:27.760 --> 00:19:30.800
<i>The sound man had his boom over the fence.</i>
<i>He didn't go in.</i>

304
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:32.000
<i>[laughs]</i>

305
00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.360
<i>So, Misha squatted down,</i>
<i>and she's feeding this one wolf cheese.</i>

306
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.600
<i>And the wolf is very friendly.</i>

307
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.080
<i>Everything's going fine.</i>

308
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.960
<i>And then the wolf decides</i>
<i>to put his paws on her shoulders.</i>

309
00:19:50.040 --> 00:19:51.320
<i>[growl]</i>

310
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.600
<i>[Soffron] Petro jumped up</i>
<i>on her shoulders,</i>

311
00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.120
<i>and he was much taller than she.</i>

312
00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:01.600
<i>And then all of a sudden, very quickly,</i>
<i>the wolf opened his mouth…</i>

313
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:02.640
<i>[growls]</i>

314
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.040
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

315
00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:08.200
<i>[Soffron]</i>
<i>…and put her whole head in his mouth.</i>

316
00:20:08.840 --> 00:20:10.040
<i>Very gently.</i>

317
00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:12.680
<i>Fangs on both temples.</i>

318
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.000
<i>[Defonseca] I felt no fear.</i>

319
00:20:17.040 --> 00:20:20.360
<i>Nobody talked about</i>
<i>the big bad wolf to me, you know.</i>

320
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.720
<i>The wolf held her head for a minute.</i>

321
00:20:22.800 --> 00:20:24.760
<i>We've stopped breathing.</i>

322
00:20:25.320 --> 00:20:28.240
<i>Oprah's producer with her eyes like…</i>

323
00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.400
<i>[Jane] And then</i>
<i>just as fast as it happened,</i>

324
00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:34.000
<i>it was over.</i>

325
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:38.080
<i>And at that point,</i>
<i>Misha rears back, lets out a big howl.</i>

326
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:41.840
<i>I get goosebumps telling this story.</i>

327
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.600
<i>From the back,</i>
<i>way back in the back of the pen,</i>

328
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:47.640
<i>we hear…</i>

329
00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.040
<i>[wolf howls]</i>

330
00:20:50.120 --> 00:20:52.200
<i>…an "awoo" coming back.</i>

331
00:20:54.080 --> 00:20:56.360
<i>When she howled,</i>
<i>they immediately howled back.</i>

332
00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.600
<i>[howling]</i>

333
00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:02.720
<i>[Jane] There it was. You could see.</i>

334
00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:05.960
<i>There's the connection</i>
<i>between the human and the wolf.</i>

335
00:21:06.040 --> 00:21:09.920
<i>[howling continues]</i>

336
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.520
<i>I saw it, you know. It was amazing.</i>
<i>It was a shocking moment.</i>

337
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.280
<i>So, they had got a lot</i>
<i>of really interesting wolf footage,</i>

338
00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:20.600
<i>and I thought,</i>
<i>"This is gonna make a great </i>Oprah<i> show."</i>

339
00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:25.400
<i>The next step was that she was to go</i>
<i>to Chicago for the studio portion.</i>

340
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.080
<i>[Soffron] Things were going</i>
<i>swimmingly well.</i>

341
00:21:30.280 --> 00:21:32.680
<i>And then, I began to see some tension</i>

342
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:34.720
<i>between Misha and Jane.</i>

343
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:36.640
<i>[sighs]</i>

344
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.080
<i>It wasn't very pleasant as time went on.</i>

345
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.280
<i>[Pat] The book wasn't selling very well,</i>

346
00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:47.520
<i>so Misha and Maurice, her husband,</i>
<i>were having financial difficulties.</i>

347
00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:55.200 line:5%
<i>So then she started selling things,</i>
<i>from her house.</i>

348
00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:56.480 line:5%
<i>And, um…</i>

349
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.400 line:5%
<i>I felt bad</i>
<i>that they were losing everything.</i>

350
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:05.200
<i>[Karen Schulman] She kept saying,</i>
<i>"I have no money. I have nothing."</i>

351
00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:07.480
<i>"Jane Daniel's no good."</i>

352
00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:10.960
<i>I felt saddened,</i>

353
00:22:11.040 --> 00:22:14.880
<i>but then Misha was sitting at my table</i>
<i>one night and said to me</i>

354
00:22:16.040 --> 00:22:18.400
<i>she didn't wanna go on </i>Oprah Winfrey.

355
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.440
<i>I said, "Gee, Misha,</i>
<i>I don't understand that."</i>

356
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.400
<i>[Jane] All of a sudden,</i>
<i>Misha's not cooperative,</i>

357
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.520
<i>doesn't return phone calls,</i>
<i>has one objection after another.</i>

358
00:22:32.600 --> 00:22:34.840
<i>She doesn't wanna go, it's inconvenient,</i>

359
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:37.640
<i>she needs somebody</i>
<i>to take care of her animals at home.</i>

360
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:39.400
<i>[cats meowing, purring]</i>

361
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:44.440
<i>[Defonseca] Jane made me so mad,</i>
<i>so insecure.</i>

362
00:22:45.280 --> 00:22:48.960
<i>My husband said many times to her,</i>

363
00:22:49.040 --> 00:22:52.440
<i>"With a survivor,</i>
<i>you don't use that kind of attitude."</i>

364
00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:54.440
<i>[speaking indistinctly]</i>

365
00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:58.560
<i>[Jane] Come on. It's </i>Oprah.

366
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.160
<i>You find a dog-sitter</i>
<i>or a pet-sitter or whatever.</i>

367
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:02.800
<i>You make yourself available.</i>

368
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.880
<i>"No."</i>

369
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.200
<i>[purring]</i>

370
00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:10.800
<i>[Defonseca] Well, the memory,</i>
<i>the bad memory, came back.</i>

371
00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:13.960
<i>I have a nightmare. I was very anxious.</i>

372
00:23:14.040 --> 00:23:15.040
<i>[cat yowls]</i>

373
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:17.720
<i>[Jane] We tried everything.</i>

374
00:23:17.800 --> 00:23:21.040
<i>I wrote her notes and said,</i>
<i>"This is a million sales."</i>

375
00:23:21.560 --> 00:23:23.080
<i>"No. No. No."</i>

376
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:25.680
<i>-[meows]</i>
<i>-[whispers indistinctly]</i>

377
00:23:25.760 --> 00:23:27.080
<i>I thought, "This is crazy."</i>

378
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:31.160
<i>"Any other author would be</i>
<i>falling all over themselves to do this."</i>

379
00:23:32.120 --> 00:23:33.120
<i>[sighs]</i>

380
00:23:34.040 --> 00:23:35.360
<i>It never happened.</i>

381
00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:38.960
<i>-[church bell tolling in distance]</i>
<i>-[thunder rumbling]</i>

382
00:23:39.040 --> 00:23:40.680
<i>[Jane] A year after the book came out,</i>

383
00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:44.000
<i>there's a knock on the door,</i>
<i>and I'm handed a big package.</i>

384
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:48.200
<i>It's Misha filing a lawsuit against me.</i>

385
00:23:49.040 --> 00:23:52.360
<i>It's like, "Oh, my God."</i>
<i>And at that point, everything stopped.</i>

386
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.480
<i>No other country</i>
<i>wanted to do business with us.</i>

387
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.800
<i>We had a lawsuit attached to this project.</i>

388
00:24:03.320 --> 00:24:05.240
<i>[Ramona Hamblin]</i>
<i>The first time I met Misha,</i>

389
00:24:05.320 --> 00:24:09.200
<i>I felt very compelled</i>
<i>by the circumstances of the case.</i>

390
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:12.880
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

391
00:24:15.280 --> 00:24:16.640
<i>It was clear to me</i>

392
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:23.160 line:5%
<i>that several things had, um, been done</i>
<i>that were improper, illegal, fraudulent.</i>

393
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.920
<i>Misha was asking for the return</i>
<i>of the copyright to her name</i>

394
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:33.160
<i>and for all of the royalties</i>
<i>that she was due for book sales.</i>

395
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:37.440
<i>Jane Daniel saw in my life a gold mine,</i>

396
00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:39.320
<i>and she took advantage of it.</i>

397
00:24:40.560 --> 00:24:43.920
<i>[Hamblin]</i>
<i>There was so much anger and bitterness</i>

398
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.600
<i>between the parties</i>
<i>by the time that I got involved,</i>

399
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:50.320
<i>there was not much room for negotiation.</i>

400
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:53.760
<i>And it was clear</i>
<i>we were gonna be going to trial.</i>

401
00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:55.360
<i>It wasn't gonna settle out of court.</i>

402
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.800
<i>[sinuous music playing]</i>

403
00:25:01.800 --> 00:25:05.400
<i>[Soffron] The sense in the courtroom</i>
<i>was a lot of drama.</i>

404
00:25:06.120 --> 00:25:08.000
<i>The atmosphere was pretty tense.</i>

405
00:25:12.600 --> 00:25:14.400
<i>And then, of course, the money comes up.</i>

406
00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:22.160
<i>[Hamblin] We found that Jane Daniel had</i>
<i>set up a company in the Turks and Caicos,</i>

407
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.080
<i>so that royalties that came from overseas</i>

408
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:30.120
<i>went directly into her account</i>
<i>and never paid royalties on them.</i>

409
00:25:34.560 --> 00:25:36.320
<i>We had documentation.</i>

410
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.960
<i>We had royalty statements</i>
<i>to show that she was paid.</i>

411
00:25:39.040 --> 00:25:42.360
<i>We had canceled checks</i>
<i>that showed that she was paid.</i>

412
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:46.680
<i>So everything she was saying,</i>
<i>we had documentation to refute.</i>

413
00:25:47.320 --> 00:25:49.360
<i>But she could speak no falsehood.</i>

414
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.240
<i>You know, "Where's the money?"</i>
<i>And I think the jury was very sympathetic.</i>

415
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.360
<i>[sinuous music continues]</i>

416
00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:59.520
<i>[Hamblin] The jury was riveted.</i>

417
00:25:59.600 --> 00:26:03.360
<i>In front of you is a person</i>
<i>who'd survived the Holocaust as a child</i>

418
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.080
<i>and written a memoir about it.</i>

419
00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:10.960
<i>They were engaged</i>
<i>and absolutely enthralled by this story.</i>

420
00:26:12.840 --> 00:26:14.480
<i>Misha was a good witness.</i>

421
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:19.080
<i>All what I lived is on the manuscript,</i>

422
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:20.560
<i>because it's my life.</i>

423
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.240
<i>[sinuous music continues]</i>

424
00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:26.880
<i>[Jane huffs]</i>
<i>It just made me look like a monster.</i>

425
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:29.600
<i>And I thought, "This is not going well."</i>

426
00:26:33.120 --> 00:26:36.560
<i>Jane was always fighting.</i>
<i>She enforced what she want.</i>

427
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.600
<i>[Jane] It was a ten-day trial,</i>
<i>and it was grueling.</i>

428
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:45.400
<i>The judge asks the jury,</i>
<i>"How do you find on count one?"</i>

429
00:26:49.320 --> 00:26:52.760
<i>The jury found unanimously for Misha</i>
<i>on all counts.</i>

430
00:26:53.360 --> 00:26:56.720
<i>I mean, ultimately, they came in</i>
<i>with a massive judgment against me.</i>

431
00:26:57.360 --> 00:27:00.480
<i>It was kind of mind-boggling</i>
<i>to hear the number.</i>

432
00:27:00.560 --> 00:27:02.480
<i>22.5 million.</i>

433
00:27:02.560 --> 00:27:04.120
<i>So it was a very large verdict.</i>

434
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:08.160
<i>[sighs]</i>

435
00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:13.120
<i>I am an optimistic person,</i>
<i>but that hit me like a ton of bricks.</i>

436
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:15.440
<i>I was blown away.</i>

437
00:27:15.520 --> 00:27:16.520
<i>[chuckles]</i>

438
00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:18.400
<i>I said, "Are you kidding me?"</i>

439
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.160
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

440
00:27:23.520 --> 00:27:26.000
<i>[Hamblin] The money damages</i>
<i>against Jane Daniel</i>

441
00:27:26.080 --> 00:27:29.280
<i>were largely based</i>
<i>on Jane Daniel's testimony.</i>

442
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.920
<i>This was gonna be on </i>Oprah,
<i>there was some contract with Disney.</i>

443
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.680
<i>There were things</i>
<i>that Jane Daniel testified to</i>

444
00:27:37.760 --> 00:27:41.440
<i>to really elevate the level of damages</i>

445
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:46.680
<i>well beyond what would seem</i>
<i>supportable for a book like this.</i>

446
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:49.360
<i>So everybody paid attention.</i>

447
00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:51.920
<i>People love a big verdict.</i>

448
00:27:54.360 --> 00:27:56.920
<i>[Jane] Disney had fallen through.</i>
Oprah<i> had fallen through.</i>

449
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.720
<i>There were no millions of dollars.</i>

450
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.040
<i>It's an untenable position to be in.</i>

451
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:05.880
<i>A cruel exploiter</i>
<i>of an innocent Holocaust survivor.</i>

452
00:28:07.360 --> 00:28:10.040
<i>You know,</i>
<i>your world falls apart at that point.</i>

453
00:28:14.120 --> 00:28:17.120
<i>-[birds squawking in distance]</i>
<i>-[rain pattering softly]</i>

454
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:24.360
<i>[Jane] After the trial,</i>

455
00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:26.640
<i>this was the lowest point in my life.</i>

456
00:28:28.040 --> 00:28:31.640
<i>I ended up going into therapy</i>
<i>and being diagnosed with PTSD.</i>

457
00:28:32.520 --> 00:28:34.480
<i>And I had horrible insomnia.</i>

458
00:28:35.080 --> 00:28:37.080
<i>I was hanging on by my fingernails.</i>

459
00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:39.440
<i>My publishing company was gone.</i>

460
00:28:39.520 --> 00:28:41.520
<i>The copyright was taken away from me.</i>

461
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:44.960
<i>I mean, I was destroyed at that point.</i>

462
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.000
<i>I ended up doing a post-mortem</i>
<i>on what had happened,</i>

463
00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:51.480
<i>looking at it piece by piece by piece.</i>

464
00:28:51.560 --> 00:28:55.680
<i>I was in my lawyer's office</i>
<i>going through old records and documents.</i>

465
00:28:55.760 --> 00:28:58.560
<i>I had no idea what I was gonna find.</i>

466
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.760
<i>I open a file,</i>
<i>and it's Misha's bank account.</i>

467
00:29:02.840 --> 00:29:05.360
<i>And it's in Misha's writing,</i>
<i>and it's her signature card.</i>

468
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:09.080
<i>And on there, it says…</i>

469
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:10.560
<i>[dramatic sting]</i>

470
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:14.120 line:5%
<i>…date and place of birth,</i>
<i>filled in in Misha's hand,</i>

471
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:15.560 line:5%
<i>and mother's maiden name.</i>

472
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.120
<i>All of a sudden, I suddenly get a flash.</i>

473
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:24.960
<i>[tense, shrill music playing]</i>

474
00:29:25.560 --> 00:29:27.400
<i>[Jane] She knows who she is.</i>

475
00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:28.960
<i>She knows where she was born.</i>

476
00:29:29.040 --> 00:29:30.480
<i>[chilling music]</i>

477
00:29:30.560 --> 00:29:32.800
<i>[Jane] She knows who her mother was.</i>

478
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.160
<i>This was stuff she supposedly didn't know.</i>
<i>She lost her identity in the war.</i>

479
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:39.160
<i>This doesn't add up.</i>

480
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:41.360
<i>[tense music intensifies]</i>

481
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:44.680
<i>[Jane] Clearly, she knew a lot more</i>
<i>about who she was</i>

482
00:29:44.760 --> 00:29:45.800
<i>than what she had told me.</i>

483
00:29:47.120 --> 00:29:48.640
<i>What else might not be true?</i>

484
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:52.440
<i>I had been owned by courts and lawyers.</i>

485
00:29:52.520 --> 00:29:54.400
<i>[panting]</i>

486
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:56.720
<i>My life had been turned upside down.</i>

487
00:29:56.800 --> 00:29:58.080
<i>I wanted my life back.</i>

488
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:00.600
<i>[music fading away dramatically]</i>

489
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.040
<i>[Jane] If I can prove that she's not</i>
<i>who she's been saying she is,</i>

490
00:30:04.120 --> 00:30:05.720
<i>I can overturn this judgment.</i>

491
00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:07.440
<i>[rain pattering softly]</i>

492
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:16.120
<i>It was the dead of winter.</i>
<i>The days were short.</i>

493
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:19.120
<i>I was standing in my kitchen,</i>

494
00:30:19.600 --> 00:30:22.600
<i>and I thought, "I have to do something.</i>
<i>I have to do something."</i>

495
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:25.800
<i>[suspenseful music plays]</i>

496
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:28.920
<i>[Jane] I started recalling</i>
<i>all the things that had happened.</i>

497
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.160
<i>How I had met her, what had happened then,</i>
<i>what happened this…</i>

498
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:33.800
<i>How did the lawsuit come about?</i>

499
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:35.520
<i>And then I thought,</i>

500
00:30:35.600 --> 00:30:38.760
<i>"I'll write a book about the case.</i>
<i>I'll do it as a blog."</i>

501
00:30:39.520 --> 00:30:42.040
<i>I was writing my memoir of her memoir.</i>

502
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:45.880
<i>And maybe somebody will read it.</i>

503
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:48.320
<i>Talk about a long shot.</i>

504
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:50.680
<i>[keyboard clacking]</i>

505
00:30:50.760 --> 00:30:52.560
<i>The next day, I get up,</i>

506
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.280
<i>I turn on my computer,</i>
<i>and there's an e-mail.</i>

507
00:30:55.840 --> 00:30:57.240
<i>And the e-mail says…</i>

508
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:01.280
<i>[Sharon Sergeant]</i>
<i>"</i>I think I might be able to help find out

509
00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:03.160
<i>what's the real story."</i>

510
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:13.600
<i>I did a timeline of Misha</i>
<i>from a variety of photographs.</i>

511
00:31:14.840 --> 00:31:16.160
<i>First from the book,</i>

512
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:20.120
<i>and then from other images</i>
<i>on the Internet.</i>

513
00:31:21.280 --> 00:31:23.880
<i>So I could get a sense of her life.</i>

514
00:31:24.840 --> 00:31:26.680
<i>I wanted to know who she was.</i>

515
00:31:27.840 --> 00:31:31.680 line:5%
<i>Who is this person</i>
<i>that has just ruined my life?</i>

516
00:31:32.800 --> 00:31:36.160 line:5%
<i>Each photograph I tried to analyze</i>

517
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.320 line:5%
<i>and see what kind of information</i>
<i>I could squeeze out of it.</i>

518
00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:41.600
<i>[suspenseful music playing]</i>

519
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:46.360 line:5%
<i>The first clue was</i>
<i>Misha claims she was seven years old</i>

520
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:48.760
<i>when she was taken in</i>
<i>by this foster family.</i>

521
00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:52.800
<i>In the American book</i>
<i>there was a series</i>

522
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.160
<i>of what they call polyphoto images.</i>

523
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.080
<i>And the polyphotos were taken</i>
<i>at that time.</i>

524
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.760
<i>And I looked at the photos,</i>
<i>and I said, [clicks tongue]</i>

525
00:32:08.840 --> 00:32:11.360
<i>"No, this doesn't look like a 7-year-old."</i>

526
00:32:12.120 --> 00:32:14.920 line:5%
<i>"This looks like a toddler,</i>
<i>a three or four-year-old."</i>

527
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.280 line:5%
<i>Big bow in her hair,</i>
<i>frilly clothes and chubby, chubby cheeks.</i>

528
00:32:20.040 --> 00:32:21.040
<i>Something's wrong.</i>

529
00:32:21.120 --> 00:32:24.160
<i>[suspenseful music rising]</i>

530
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.720
<i>The next photograph I looked at</i>

531
00:32:27.800 --> 00:32:33.000
<i>was a picture who Misha said was</i>
<i>her foster grandfather and grandmother.</i>

532
00:32:33.520 --> 00:32:37.320
<i>According to the narrative,</i>
<i>he's a rustic farm man.</i>

533
00:32:39.040 --> 00:32:44.400
<i>I did a close-up of the hands</i>
<i>of Grandfather, which were manicured.</i>

534
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.800 line:5%
<i>Did not look like a farm person's hands.</i>

535
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:51.040 line:5%
<i>And he had a ring on one of his fingers.</i>

536
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:54.360
<i>Yeah, it was not the kind of thing</i>
<i>a farmer would wear.</i>

537
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:58.680
<i>And then the little dog</i>
<i>on Grandmother's lap,</i>

538
00:32:58.760 --> 00:33:01.960 line:5%
<i>that looks like a little house dog,</i>
<i>not a farm dog.</i>

539
00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:04.080
<i>So I thought, "Gee, that's strange."</i>

540
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:09.880 line:5%
<i>And that's when I started comparing</i>
<i>the French and the American book.</i>

541
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:14.160
<i>I was looking at names</i>
<i>and places and dates.</i>

542
00:33:14.800 --> 00:33:16.720
<i>That was the big red flag.</i>

543
00:33:18.040 --> 00:33:19.680
<i>[Jane] She called me and she said,</i>

544
00:33:19.760 --> 00:33:23.960
<i>"Do you notice that Misha's name</i>
<i>that she used in the French book</i>

545
00:33:24.040 --> 00:33:26.600
<i>is different from the name</i>
<i>she used in the American book?"</i>

546
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:30.360 line:5%
<i>In the American book,</i>
<i>the name that she was given</i>

547
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:33.480
<i>by the foster family that took her in</i>
<i>was de Wael.</i>

548
00:33:35.840 --> 00:33:38.720
<i>What Sharon noticed immediately is</i>
<i>the French book,</i>

549
00:33:38.800 --> 00:33:42.520
<i>the foster family gave her</i>
<i>the name Valle, V-A-L-L-E.</i>

550
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:45.840
<i>Why would you have two different names?</i>

551
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:47.720
<i>[suspenseful music continues]</i>

552
00:33:47.800 --> 00:33:49.480
<i>[Sharon] There's too many discrepancies,</i>

553
00:33:49.560 --> 00:33:53.120
<i>between the name changes,</i>
<i>the pictures, and so on.</i>

554
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.200
<i>[music climaxes]</i>

555
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.880
<i>Fishy, yep. Definitely seemed fishy.</i>

556
00:34:01.080 --> 00:34:03.040
<i>[director] Take a drink if you want.</i>
<i>Just relax.</i>

557
00:34:03.120 --> 00:34:05.560
<i>I know it's a nerve-wracking thing.</i>

558
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:11.160
<i>[Jane] If her story were true</i>
<i>and I were doubting it…</i>

559
00:34:11.240 --> 00:34:13.680
<i>there's something particularly</i>

560
00:34:14.720 --> 00:34:15.680
<i>vicious</i>

561
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:17.160
<i>to</i>

562
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.960
<i>doubt somebody who's telling the truth</i>

563
00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:21.880
<i>about something awful</i>
<i>that happened to them</i>

564
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:26.240
<i>and the callousness that it takes to say,</i>
<i>"I don't believe you."</i>

565
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.680
<i>And the harm you can cause by doing that.</i>

566
00:34:29.200 --> 00:34:30.520
<i>That was in my mind.</i>

567
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.920
<i>On the other hand,</i>
<i>what was also in my mind is,</i>

568
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:35.680
<i>"So many discrepancies."</i>

569
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:41.040
<i>Why would you be saying things</i>
<i>that aren't true, unless you're crazy?</i>

570
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:46.160
<i>Maybe she's so traumatized</i>
<i>that she's just lost her grip on reality.</i>

571
00:34:47.080 --> 00:34:49.400
<i>How much did that explain? I didn't know.</i>

572
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.520
<i>I needed a lot of answers at that point.</i>

573
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:56.240
<i>We need boots on the ground in Belgium.</i>

574
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.200
<i>[train car whirring]</i>

575
00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:01.880 line:5%
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

576
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:05.640
<i>[Jane] Sharon had a connection</i>
<i>with a Belgian genealogist</i>

577
00:35:05.720 --> 00:35:08.720
<i>who herself was a Holocaust survivor.</i>

578
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.280
<i>As it turns out,</i>

579
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:14.680
<i>she grew up in the same area</i>
<i>that Misha claims to have lived in.</i>

580
00:35:23.560 --> 00:35:27.960
<i>During the war,</i>
<i>I myself was a hidden child.</i>

581
00:35:35.160 --> 00:35:37.600
<i>I went to a Catholic school,</i>

582
00:35:37.680 --> 00:35:43.280
<i>and I became a very good</i>
<i>little Belgian, Catholic girl.</i>

583
00:35:45.080 --> 00:35:49.760
<i>I have no recollection</i>
<i>of anybody telling me</i>

584
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:52.160
<i>what happened to my parents.</i>

585
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:56.560
<i>I have no memory at all.</i>

586
00:35:56.640 --> 00:36:00.800
<i>[gentle, dramatic music playing]</i>

587
00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:08.840
<i>I was about 40 and went through</i>
<i>a sort of terrible breakdown…</i>

588
00:36:11.720 --> 00:36:17.160
<i>which led me to find</i>
<i>what happened to me, in fact,</i>

589
00:36:17.240 --> 00:36:19.960 line:5%
<i>and to my parents and my family.</i>

590
00:36:20.040 --> 00:36:22.800 line:5%
<i>And I started to make research.</i>

591
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:32.600
<i>I found out my father was deported</i>
<i>to Auschwitz in September '42.</i>

592
00:36:37.600 --> 00:36:42.080
<i>My mother was arrested</i>
<i>in October in Brussels</i>

593
00:36:43.240 --> 00:36:45.600
<i>and deported to Auschwitz.</i>

594
00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:52.200
<i>I was told that they didn't come back.</i>

595
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:08.360
<i>So, I went by car to Auschwitz.</i>

596
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.240
<i>I saw the camp…</i>

597
00:37:17.680 --> 00:37:21.440
<i>where there was not a single soul.</i>

598
00:37:28.080 --> 00:37:31.480
<i>The chamber…</i>
<i>The gas chambers were exploded.</i>

599
00:37:35.160 --> 00:37:39.840
<i>I found some candles,</i>
<i>what we call Jahrzeit,</i>

600
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:47.080
<i>still burning in the rubbles</i>
<i>of some of the gas chambers.</i>

601
00:37:50.560 --> 00:37:52.160
<i>Before leaving,</i>

602
00:37:52.240 --> 00:37:57.840
<i>I had a Star of David done</i>
<i>in dried flowers.</i>

603
00:38:00.160 --> 00:38:02.960
<i>I just didn't know…</i>

604
00:38:04.560 --> 00:38:05.840
<i>where to put it.</i>

605
00:38:08.080 --> 00:38:10.920
<i>I couldn't put it at the monument.</i>

606
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.440
<i>So, finally, I chose the…</i>

607
00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:18.560
<i>the little pond.</i>

608
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:21.080
<i>It floated there.</i>

609
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:27.240
<i>And I think that was the time that I…</i>

610
00:38:29.240 --> 00:38:30.240
<i>[swallows]</i>

611
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:33.000
<i>[softly] Sorry.</i>

612
00:38:34.040 --> 00:38:35.040
<i>Sorry.</i>

613
00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:42.160
<i>[swallows]</i>

614
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.960
<i>…that I put my parents to rest.</i>

615
00:38:48.040 --> 00:38:50.960
<i>My parents, my grandmother, my cousin.</i>

616
00:39:08.120 --> 00:39:11.040
<i>[Jane] Evelyne is herself</i>
<i>a Holocaust survivor</i>

617
00:39:11.120 --> 00:39:13.080
<i>whose story was very much like Misha's.</i>

618
00:39:13.160 --> 00:39:17.120
<i>So she was the perfect person</i>
<i>to find what was going on.</i>

619
00:39:19.560 --> 00:39:20.920
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

620
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:25.160
<i>[Sharon] In the French book,</i>
<i>the foster family had a surname of Valle.</i>

621
00:39:25.720 --> 00:39:30.520
<i>And in the American book</i>
<i>the foster family's surname was de Wael.</i>

622
00:39:35.600 --> 00:39:38.280
<i>To reconcile the name changes,</i>

623
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:41.480
<i>Evelyne went through the city directories</i>

624
00:39:41.560 --> 00:39:44.760
<i>for the 1930s, 1940s.</i>

625
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:50.240
<i>[Evelyne] I came at least three days</i>

626
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:53.600
<i>searching for the de Waels and the Valles.</i>

627
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.640
<i>The name Valle was not in the phone books.</i>

628
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:06.000
<i>The Valle name didn't exist.</i>

629
00:40:12.200 --> 00:40:13.840 line:5%
<i>De Wael, yes.</i>

630
00:40:15.040 --> 00:40:19.640 line:5%
<i>There were many de Wael.</i>
<i>Many, many, many, many.</i>

631
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:23.560
<i>[Jane] So, now you start to think,</i>

632
00:40:23.640 --> 00:40:26.200
<i>the French book</i>
<i>was distributed in Belgium,</i>

633
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.640 line:5%
<i>and if something about Misha's story</i>
<i>is not true,</i>

634
00:40:29.720 --> 00:40:34.160
<i>it would be important for her not to put</i>
<i>her real name in that French book.</i>

635
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:37.040
<i>There would be somebody over there</i>

636
00:40:37.120 --> 00:40:39.360
<i>who would say,</i>
<i>"I knew the de Wael family."</i>

637
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:45.400
<i>"I know whether or not she was around,</i>
<i>or did she disappear during the war."</i>

638
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.240
<i>[Sharon] The fact that she changed</i>
<i>the name in France and Belgium</i>

639
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.680
<i>from de Wael to Valle,</i>

640
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:56.600
<i>suggests to me</i>
<i>that she's trying to hide something.</i>

641
00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:01.560
<i>[Jane] Sharon and I</i>
<i>both looked at this and said,</i>

642
00:41:01.640 --> 00:41:03.760
<i>"Something's really wrong</i>
<i>with this story."</i>

643
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:13.600
<i>So, at this point, the book had been</i>
<i>taken over by a French publisher,</i>

644
00:41:13.680 --> 00:41:16.280
<i>who had published it in 20 languages.</i>

645
00:41:17.240 --> 00:41:19.600
<i>It was a huge bestseller all over Europe.</i>

646
00:41:19.680 --> 00:41:23.840
<i>She was speaking to schoolchildren</i>
<i>all over the French-speaking world.</i>

647
00:41:25.560 --> 00:41:28.240
<i>[Marie-Claire Mommer speaking French] </i>
<i>In 2005,</i>

648
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.680
<i>I was planning on creating</i>

649
00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:33.280
<i>as a professor of psychology</i>

650
00:41:34.120 --> 00:41:37.840
<i>a project on the story of this young child</i>

651
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:41.640
<i>who experienced all these adventures.</i>

652
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:52.040
<i>The project became a huge,</i>
<i>magnificent exhibition.</i>

653
00:41:53.680 --> 00:41:55.880 line:5%
<i>Then we have the idea</i>

654
00:41:55.960 --> 00:41:58.320 line:5%
<i>to try and bring her to Belgium.</i>

655
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:04.480
<i>We watched her get out of the train.</i>

656
00:42:05.080 --> 00:42:08.800
<i>It was a fascinating sight.</i>

657
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:13.800
<i>She was dressed in blue…</i>

658
00:42:16.120 --> 00:42:18.120
<i>like a shining canary</i>

659
00:42:18.680 --> 00:42:20.920
<i>with all its colors…</i>

660
00:42:23.560 --> 00:42:24.720
<i>[chuckles]</i>

661
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:26.480
<i>…with two,</i>

662
00:42:26.560 --> 00:42:28.960
<i>no, three big suitcases!</i>

663
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:33.120
<i>She came towards me</i>

664
00:42:33.200 --> 00:42:36.680
<i>all radiant and beaming.</i>

665
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:39.760
<i>Right away, she exhibits</i>

666
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:43.400
<i>a very dynamic character,</i>

667
00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:46.000
<i>very welcoming and very generous.</i>

668
00:42:48.720 --> 00:42:53.000
<i>When Misha entered the exhibition,</i>

669
00:42:53.080 --> 00:42:54.600
<i>she collapsed.</i>

670
00:42:55.240 --> 00:42:56.240
<i>[applause]</i>

671
00:42:57.080 --> 00:42:59.800
<i>[Defonseca, in French]</i>
<i>I was not warned of this,</i>

672
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:02.200
<i>so when I visited the exhibition,</i>

673
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:04.480
<i>I burst into tears</i>

674
00:43:04.560 --> 00:43:06.480
<i>because it touched me very deeply.</i>

675
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:12.960 line:5%
<i>[Mommer, in French]</i>
<i>She was so delighted to be there.</i>

676
00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:15.240 line:5%
<i>But on the other hand,</i>

677
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.440
<i>we saw the sadness come out</i>

678
00:43:18.520 --> 00:43:21.640
<i>and the tears, the tears, the tears.</i>

679
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.000
<i>It was very emotional.</i>

680
00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:29.280
<i>[in French] We were all</i>
<i>really traumatized by her story</i>

681
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:32.080
<i>and we all wanted to give</i>

682
00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:34.520
<i>a bit of joy to this woman</i>

683
00:43:35.200 --> 00:43:37.760
<i>by showing our creativity</i>

684
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:39.920
<i>and our courage, too,</i>

685
00:43:40.520 --> 00:43:41.960
<i>to show what we felt.</i>

686
00:43:42.560 --> 00:43:45.480
<i>[Jane, in English] In the book,</i>
<i>Misha says that her parents</i>

687
00:43:45.560 --> 00:43:48.440
<i>were arrested together</i>
<i>by the Nazis and deported.</i>

688
00:43:49.600 --> 00:43:51.600
<i>Although she didn't know their surname,</i>

689
00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:54.520
<i>their first names were Reuven and Gerusha.</i>

690
00:43:55.200 --> 00:43:57.360
<i>So, the next step was, Sharon said,</i>

691
00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.680
<i>"I have access</i>
<i>to the Nazi records of deportations."</i>

692
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:02.600
<i>"Well, I will take those two names</i>

693
00:44:02.680 --> 00:44:05.120
<i>and see if there are two people</i>
<i>who were deported</i>

694
00:44:05.200 --> 00:44:07.480
<i>more or less simultaneously</i>
<i>with those names."</i>

695
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:16.800
<i>[Sharon] When we examined</i>
<i>the deportation lists,</i>

696
00:44:17.560 --> 00:44:20.680
<i>they were not found as a husband and wife.</i>

697
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:24.000
<i>[Defonseca, in French]</i>
<i>"I missed my parents terribly."</i>

698
00:44:26.160 --> 00:44:29.000
<i>"My face was covered in mud."</i>

699
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.120
<i>"I screamed…</i>

700
00:44:32.200 --> 00:44:34.640
<i>some nights, from the cold."</i>

701
00:44:34.720 --> 00:44:36.160
<i>"Later on,</i>

702
00:44:36.240 --> 00:44:37.920
<i>I got a second chance."</i>

703
00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:41.680
<i>"I survived because I trusted no one."</i>

704
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:46.560
<i>"Because I avoided contact with humans."</i>

705
00:44:55.080 --> 00:44:57.760
<i>[tense music rising]</i>

706
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:01.960
<i>[Evelyne, in English] During the war,</i>
<i>the Jewish Defence Committee</i>

707
00:45:02.040 --> 00:45:05.760
<i>had made lists of hidden Jewish children</i>

708
00:45:06.600 --> 00:45:10.800
<i>with the name of their rescuer</i>
<i>and the name of their parents.</i>

709
00:45:12.160 --> 00:45:16.440
<i>These lists are now in the archives</i>
<i>at the War Victims Services.</i>

710
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.160
<i>It was a real, real, real danger</i>

711
00:45:21.640 --> 00:45:26.320
<i>that these lists</i>
<i>would be taken by the Nazis.</i>

712
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.400
<i>Children would be found,</i>

713
00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:31.360
<i>and be, uh, killed.</i>

714
00:45:32.640 --> 00:45:34.720
<i>But it was quite clever.</i>

715
00:45:35.640 --> 00:45:38.400
<i>There were four different booklets.</i>

716
00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:43.400
<i>You needed all four to find the child.</i>

717
00:45:44.120 --> 00:45:48.080
<i>But all four of them</i>
<i>were in different places.</i>

718
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:53.640
<i>If any Nazi found a single booklet,</i>

719
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.920
<i>they would not be able to trace the child,</i>

720
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:59.120
<i>but at the end of the war,</i>

721
00:45:59.200 --> 00:46:01.960
<i>with the four different booklets,</i>

722
00:46:02.040 --> 00:46:06.760
<i>there would've been a way to find</i>
<i>whose child it was.</i>

723
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:11.440
<i>And so I searched for Misha's parents.</i>

724
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:21.520
<i>No names of the parents.</i>

725
00:46:22.720 --> 00:46:25.880
<i>So, I knew there</i>
<i>that there was something wrong.</i>

726
00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:30.360
<i>And in the lists of hidden children,</i>

727
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:33.920
<i>they didn't have "Misha,"</i>
<i>and they didn't have "de Wael,"</i>

728
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:35.920
<i>that is for sure.</i>

729
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:39.680
<i>She was not mentioned at all.</i>

730
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:42.840
<i>[tense music climaxes]</i>

731
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:49.320
<i>[Mommer, in French] Misha's story</i>

732
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:51.320
<i>had a snowball effect.</i>

733
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.160
<i>Already millions of books</i>

734
00:46:54.240 --> 00:46:56.240
<i>had been sold.</i>

735
00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:59.080
<i>And thereafter,</i>

736
00:46:59.160 --> 00:47:00.400
<i>we had to work</i>

737
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.520
<i>to prepare the conferences</i>

738
00:47:02.600 --> 00:47:04.200
<i>and get her to them.</i>

739
00:47:06.120 --> 00:47:08.880
<i>So, we were always together.</i>

740
00:47:11.200 --> 00:47:13.680
<i>At that time, she would often</i>

741
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:16.000
<i>come back to our home.</i>

742
00:47:16.720 --> 00:47:18.240
<i>She would eat with us.</i>

743
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.600
<i>She was like a member of the family.</i>

744
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.800
<i>We had dozens of events.</i>

745
00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:34.080
<i>Of course, we took her to them.</i>

746
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:38.240
<i>She was always welcomed</i>

747
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:40.800
<i>by the organizers</i>

748
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:45.720
<i>and always with a lot</i>
<i>of kindness and friendliness.</i>

749
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:50.440
<i>Everyone left the conferences</i>

750
00:47:51.200 --> 00:47:53.320
<i>dazzled by this character.</i>

751
00:48:04.680 --> 00:48:06.840
<i>[Evelyne, in English] I was stuck, really.</i>

752
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:11.440
<i>No findings but no proof.</i>

753
00:48:12.640 --> 00:48:13.960
<i>No proof.</i>

754
00:48:16.680 --> 00:48:22.120
<i>So that was the point where I thought</i>
<i>that she could've been undocumented.</i>

755
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:25.480
<i>Some children were hidden</i>

756
00:48:25.560 --> 00:48:29.080
<i>but not necessarily through organization.</i>

757
00:48:30.240 --> 00:48:33.400
<i>As extraordinary as her story was,</i>

758
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:35.520
<i>I had to keep in mind</i>

759
00:48:35.600 --> 00:48:40.160
<i>that she might have been</i>
<i>a Jewish hidden child.</i>

760
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.400 line:5%
<i>[TV show music playing]</i>

761
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.960
<i>[in French] We are going to talk</i>
<i>about this strange and wonderful story.</i>

762
00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:48.920
<i>Misha Defonseca is with us. Hello.</i>

763
00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:49.840
<i>Hello.</i>

764
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:53.000
<i>Thank you for coming to see us</i>
<i>to tell us about this story.</i>

765
00:48:53.640 --> 00:48:56.520
<i>[Jane, in English] Now the stakes go up.</i>
<i>I start worrying.</i>

766
00:48:56.600 --> 00:48:59.640
<i>I will feel a lot of guilt,</i>
<i>if this is true,</i>

767
00:48:59.720 --> 00:49:02.320
<i>that I am digging into her past.</i>

768
00:49:03.160 --> 00:49:04.760
<i>And what if it </i>is<i> true?</i>

769
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.800
<i>[in French] Misha Defonseca</i>
<i>is a witness of the Holocaust.</i>

770
00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:08.920
<i>Hello.</i>

771
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:12.360
<i>[Jane, in English]</i>
<i>How unfair to challenge her.</i>

772
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.640
<i>And even if it's mostly true</i>
<i>but not quite true,</i>

773
00:49:16.720 --> 00:49:20.320
<i>how unfair to disrespect</i>
<i>what she's been through.</i>

774
00:49:21.040 --> 00:49:24.160
<i>[in French]</i>
<i>You have to go through all the tragedy</i>

775
00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:26.720
<i>and all the horrors.</i>

776
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:28.000
<i>It's very painful.</i>

777
00:49:28.080 --> 00:49:32.040
<i>I felt like I had been cast in a play</i>
<i>that I didn't audition for.</i>

778
00:49:32.120 --> 00:49:34.800
<i>I didn't want the part.</i>
<i>I didn't wanna be in the play.</i>

779
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:37.520
<i>[in French] I have known hatred</i>

780
00:49:37.600 --> 00:49:40.360
<i>and I have known the rage to kill</i>

781
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:43.160
<i>because it's my life or his.</i>

782
00:49:43.240 --> 00:49:44.760
<i>It was devouring me.</i>

783
00:49:45.520 --> 00:49:47.920
<i>[in French] Personally…</i>

784
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.000
<i>I live it every day.</i>

785
00:49:49.080 --> 00:49:50.840
<i>This had taken over my own life.</i>

786
00:49:52.120 --> 00:49:54.880
<i>[in French] I think about my parents</i>
<i>every day, and for me,</i>

787
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:58.240
<i>the Holocaust is every day.</i>
<i>The memory stays with you every day.</i>

788
00:49:59.120 --> 00:50:03.000
<i>[Jane] But I'd had this judgment hanging</i>
<i>over my head for quite a while now.</i>

789
00:50:03.080 --> 00:50:04.800
<i>I had lost the appeal.</i>

790
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:08.280
<i>I was looking at the possibility</i>
<i>of being completely wiped out.</i>

791
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:13.840
<i>So it was starting to get</i>
<i>pretty uncomfortable,</i>

792
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:16.280
<i>but I needed to get to the truth.</i>

793
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:20.520 line:5%
<i>So, when we had no Jewish records</i>
<i>to support her story,</i>

794
00:50:20.600 --> 00:50:23.520
<i>the question is,</i>
<i>maybe she's not even Jewish.</i>

795
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:26.960
<i>[Evelyne] If she's not Jewish,</i>

796
00:50:27.040 --> 00:50:31.520
<i>then she must be, most likely, Catholic.</i>

797
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:34.360
<i>If she was Catholic,</i>
<i>perhaps she was baptized.</i>

798
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:40.320
<i>[Sharon] Misha Defonseca's bank record</i>
<i>from the trial records</i>

799
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:44.480
<i>said that she was born in 1937,</i>

800
00:50:44.560 --> 00:50:46.320
<i>her mother's maiden name was Donville,</i>

801
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:47.960
<i>and she was born in Etterbeek.</i>

802
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:53.400
<i>[Evelyne] Etterbeek, a suburb of Brussels.</i>

803
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:59.720
<i>So, in Etterbeek,</i>
<i>I searched for different churches.</i>

804
00:51:00.520 --> 00:51:04.240
<i>[Jane] So Evelyne went to the first one.</i>
<i>The records weren't there.</i>

805
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:06.280
<i>[Evelyne] Went to another one…</i>

806
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:10.400
<i>[Jane] No baptismal record</i>
<i>that matched Misha's information.</i>

807
00:51:11.520 --> 00:51:13.920
<i>[Evelyne]</i>
<i>And to the third one in the area…</i>

808
00:51:15.080 --> 00:51:18.120
<i>[Jane] As it turns out,</i>
<i>the church had burnt to the ground.</i>

809
00:51:18.200 --> 00:51:20.480
<i>When we learned that,</i>
<i>I thought… [groans]</i>

810
00:51:22.240 --> 00:51:23.520
<i>"We're probably sunk now,</i>

811
00:51:23.600 --> 00:51:25.960
<i>because the records</i>
<i>probably were destroyed in the fire."</i>

812
00:51:28.560 --> 00:51:32.240 line:5%
<i>[Evelyne] But the offices, the presbytère,</i>

813
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:35.000 line:5%
<i>was in an adjoining street.</i>

814
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:37.480
<i>They were preserved.</i>

815
00:51:37.560 --> 00:51:41.680
<i>[inquisitive music playing]</i>

816
00:51:48.600 --> 00:51:51.280
<i>So, Evelyne was looking</i>
<i>date by date by date,</i>

817
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:53.800
<i>all the children born in that parish.</i>

818
00:51:58.520 --> 00:51:59.840
<i>I knew two things:</i>

819
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:05.400
<i>Her date of birth, 12th of May, 1937,</i>

820
00:52:07.640 --> 00:52:11.280
<i>and the mother's name, Donville.</i>

821
00:52:19.040 --> 00:52:22.200
<i>[music climaxes]</i>

822
00:52:23.720 --> 00:52:26.120
<i>And in that book, I found her.</i>

823
00:52:28.080 --> 00:52:33.320 line:5%
<i>"Monica Ernestina Josephine de Wael…</i>

824
00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:42.120
<i>daughter of</i>
<i>Roberti Henrici Ernesti de Wael</i>

825
00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:48.400
<i>and Josephinae Germanae Barbarae Donvil."</i>

826
00:52:52.200 --> 00:52:57.080
<i>The revelation was that</i>
<i>Misha's father's name was de Wael.</i>

827
00:52:57.160 --> 00:53:02.080
<i>So, at that point, it seemed that</i>
<i>Monique de Wael was her real name.</i>

828
00:53:02.160 --> 00:53:04.720
<i>It wasn't a name</i>
<i>given to her by foster parents</i>

829
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:06.320
<i>to hide her from the Nazis.</i>

830
00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:09.840
<i>It seemed like</i>
<i>she was born Monique de Wael.</i>

831
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:13.520
<i>She was a Catholic.</i>
<i>She was baptized Catholic.</i>

832
00:53:13.600 --> 00:53:15.080
<i>Her father was de Wael.</i>

833
00:53:16.120 --> 00:53:18.400
<i>However, it wasn't proof conclusive.</i>

834
00:53:21.600 --> 00:53:25.080
<i>Because in those days,</i>
<i>they used to take names of dead children</i>

835
00:53:25.600 --> 00:53:28.720
<i>and give them to Jewish children,</i>
<i>by way of hiding them.</i>

836
00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:35.400
<i>It was possible that the de Waels</i>
<i>had taken in a hidden child</i>

837
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:37.680
<i>and that their own child had died.</i>

838
00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:39.800
<i>I needed further proof.</i>

839
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:41.680
<i>[director] So what did you do next?</i>

840
00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:46.800
<i>[chuckles] Off the record,</i>
<i>this is a good question.</i>

841
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:49.480
<i>-[crew chuckles]</i>
<i>-[chuckling] What do I do next?</i>

842
00:53:53.240 --> 00:53:57.880
<i>[Jane] Evelyne figured out, "All right,</i>
<i>where else can I find that proof?"</i>

843
00:53:59.840 --> 00:54:01.760
<i>She would've gone to school.</i>

844
00:54:03.160 --> 00:54:09.400
<i>I tried to find a school on the tram track</i>
<i>that she mentioned in her book.</i>

845
00:54:21.720 --> 00:54:24.880
<i>[chuckles] And as I walked by,</i>
<i>I hit the school.</i>

846
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:30.720
<i>The door was open.</i>

847
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:33.200
<i>I walked in and asked</i>

848
00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:39.400
<i>if they had any record of someone</i>
<i>with the name of Monique de Wael.</i>

849
00:54:45.160 --> 00:54:46.880
<i>[Jane] So, we're biting our fingernails,</i>

850
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.080
<i>to the point that</i>
<i>they're practically bleeding,</i>

851
00:54:49.160 --> 00:54:50.680
<i>waiting for this information.</i>

852
00:54:52.600 --> 00:54:54.840 line:5%
<i>Either we've got the records or we don't.</i>

853
00:55:08.160 --> 00:55:10.640
<i>[Evelyne] And there on the register</i>
<i>was her name.</i>

854
00:55:12.600 --> 00:55:15.520
<i>"De Wael, Monique."</i>

855
00:55:16.080 --> 00:55:19.720
<i>That was really the final proof,</i>
<i>shall I say.</i>

856
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:22.600
<i>Both the baptism certificate</i>

857
00:55:22.680 --> 00:55:26.480
<i>and her attendance</i>
<i>in a school in Brussels.</i>

858
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:32.320
<i>I got to the phone, and I picked up</i>
<i>the phone and it was Sharon.</i>

859
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:35.000
<i>And Sharon could hardly contain</i>
<i>her excitement.</i>

860
00:55:35.080 --> 00:55:36.800
<i>She practically screamed into the phone,</i>

861
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:39.560
<i>"We've got the records!</i>
<i>We've got the records!"</i>

862
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.680
<i>That was the smoking gun.</i>

863
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:49.720
<i>[intense music exploding]</i>

864
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:50.640
<i>[music stops]</i>

865
00:55:50.720 --> 00:55:52.560
<i>[Jane] Now I've caught her in a lie.</i>

866
00:55:56.120 --> 00:55:57.840
<i>My life had been contaminated…</i>

867
00:55:57.920 --> 00:55:59.400
<i>[crewman] End board.</i>

868
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:02.160
<i>[Jane] …by a whole spiderweb of lies.</i>

869
00:56:02.240 --> 00:56:04.280
<i>[director] Take 15 minutes, everybody.</i>

870
00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:06.440
<i>[dramatic music sting]</i>

871
00:56:06.520 --> 00:56:08.640
<i>[Jane] And here it is,</i>
<i>exposed as a hoax.</i>

872
00:56:09.240 --> 00:56:12.280
<i>[Defonseca, in French] Could you pass me</i>
<i>a bottle of water, please?</i>

873
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:16.360
<i>-Thank you.</i>
<i>-[Jane] I thought,</i>

874
00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:21.080
<i>"Now, the whole story that she</i>
<i>has been telling in the book falls apart."</i>

875
00:56:21.160 --> 00:56:24.800
<i>[tense music rising]</i>

876
00:56:36.720 --> 00:56:40.440
<i>At that point, I knew</i>
<i>she was not who she said she was.</i>

877
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:44.360
<i>[chuckles]</i>

878
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:49.000
<i>[Jane] Not only was she not a Jewish child</i>

879
00:56:49.080 --> 00:56:51.520
<i>hiding in the forest from the Nazis,</i>

880
00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:56.120
<i>she was a Catholic child</i>
<i>safely enrolled in school.</i>

881
00:56:56.200 --> 00:56:57.360
<i>[growling]</i>

882
00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.200
<i>She wasn't anywhere near wolves.</i>

883
00:57:03.160 --> 00:57:06.760
<i>She was playing to an audience.</i>
<i>She knew exactly what she was doing.</i>

884
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:13.360
<i>Now we can see</i>
<i>that this is not just a little white fib.</i>

885
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:17.760
<i>This is a massive conspiracy over 20 years</i>

886
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:23.440
<i>to propagate something</i>
<i>that was a complete and total falsehood.</i>

887
00:57:25.160 --> 00:57:27.480
<i>This was not the real Misha.</i>

888
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:30.800
<i>[chilling music playing]</i>

889
00:57:36.600 --> 00:57:38.360 line:5%
<i>[Evelyne] I had many feelings.</i>

890
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:46.360
<i>I felt angry. I felt disgusted.</i>

891
00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:56.600
<i>I just saw the fake history,</i>
<i>the fake identity,</i>

892
00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:02.080
<i>a way to get money out of the Holocaust.</i>

893
00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:11.680
<i>Somebody stole</i>
<i>a very painful part of my life.</i>

894
00:58:13.240 --> 00:58:18.320
<i>[inhales deeply]</i>
<i>I felt it for myself, for my…</i>

895
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:21.560
<i>for all the hidden children</i>

896
00:58:21.640 --> 00:58:26.880
<i>and all the dead children</i>
<i>through the Holocaust.</i>

897
00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:29.480
<i>Uh…</i>

898
00:58:31.680 --> 00:58:35.880
<i>For all the parents,</i>
<i>for my parents, [inhales]</i>

899
00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:38.840
<i>but in fact for all the Jewish community.</i>

900
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:42.320 line:5%
<i>[evocative music playing]</i>

901
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:44.400 line:5%
<i>[wolves barking]</i>

902
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:46.920 line:5%
<i>[shouts in French]</i>

903
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:49.280 line:5%
<i>[Jane] At the point</i>
<i>that we got those records,</i>

904
00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:51.760
<i>the book was a huge bestseller</i>
<i>all over Europe</i>

905
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:54.800
<i>and the movie had just come out.</i>

906
00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:58.600
<i>And the movie was called</i>
Survival with Wolves.

907
00:59:00.680 --> 00:59:01.640
<i>[wolves barking]</i>

908
00:59:01.720 --> 00:59:02.720
<i>[howling]</i>

909
00:59:03.600 --> 00:59:06.480
<i>[dramatic music rising]</i>

910
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:10.960
<i>[speaking French]</i>

911
00:59:16.720 --> 00:59:18.280
<i>[wolves whine, howl]</i>

912
00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:26.520
<i>[applause]</i>

913
00:59:26.600 --> 00:59:28.760
<i>[male host, in French] There it is,</i>

914
00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:30.880
<i>the trailer of Véra Belmont's film.</i>

915
00:59:31.520 --> 00:59:33.520
<i>It's very touching to see you both here,</i>

916
00:59:33.600 --> 00:59:35.800
<i>the real person and little Mathilde.</i>

917
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:37.640
<i>You seem very emotional.</i>

918
00:59:37.720 --> 00:59:41.600
<i>It's as if you are reliving this story</i>
<i>every time you see the film?</i>

919
00:59:41.680 --> 00:59:43.360
<i>Yes, that's right.</i>

920
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:45.960
<i>That's right. It's very difficult.</i>

921
00:59:46.040 --> 00:59:51.480
<i>Do you recognize yourself</i>
<i>in Mathilde's acting?</i>

922
00:59:51.560 --> 00:59:53.000
<i>Absolutely, absolutely.</i>

923
00:59:53.080 --> 00:59:55.920
<i>It's very well expressed.</i>

924
00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:57.920
<i>She plays magnificently.</i>

925
00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:00.600
<i>She conveys the emotions very well.</i>

926
01:00:01.720 --> 01:00:05.240
<i>It was the thought of my mother</i>
<i>that kept me going.</i>

927
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.080
<i>There is a scene in the film</i>

928
01:00:07.160 --> 01:00:10.000
<i>which to me is extraordinary.</i>

929
01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:14.400
<i>The one where she falls out of the train</i>
<i>and she says…</i>

930
01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:15.800
<i>[inaudible]</i>

931
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:19.440 line:5%
<i>[haunting orchestral music taking over]</i>

932
01:00:26.200 --> 01:00:30.600
<i>[in French] Cinema, with a beautiful film</i>
<i>inspired by a true story.</i>

933
01:00:30.680 --> 01:00:31.960
<i>[in French] You're great.</i>

934
01:00:32.040 --> 01:00:34.240
<i>-You're a great actress.</i>
<i>-[chuckles]</i>

935
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:37.000
<i>[in French]</i>
<i>This story is very, very moving.</i>

936
01:00:37.080 --> 01:00:40.800
<i>An incredible story and yet a true story.</i>

937
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:42.880
<i>[overlapping conversations]</i>

938
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:44.640
<i>[haunting music climaxing]</i>

939
01:00:44.720 --> 01:00:46.320
<i>[in French] Cut! Excellent.</i>

940
01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:48.840
<i>[in English] It premiered in Paris.</i>

941
01:00:48.920 --> 01:00:50.520
<i>"Based on a true story."</i>

942
01:00:50.600 --> 01:00:53.240
<i>And here we're holding these documents.</i>

943
01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:58.240
<i>So we thought, "Let's go with this.</i>
<i>Let's put it on my blog,</i>

944
01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:01.480
<i>and let's e-mail somebody</i>
<i>over there in Belgium."</i>

945
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:04.400
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

946
01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:05.800
<i>The next morning we got up,</i>

947
01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:08.440
<i>it had broken front page</i>
<i>of all the newspapers.</i>

948
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:13.920
<i>[newsreader, in French]</i>
<i>A book, then a film,</i>

949
01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.560
<i>supposedly an autobiography,</i>
<i>but everything was false.</i>

950
01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:21.400
<i>[in French] It was an incredible story,</i>
<i>the story of a young Shoah survivor.</i>

951
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:24.240
<i>We had fired a truth bomb. It had landed.</i>

952
01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:28.200
<i>[in French] </i>Surviving with Wolves,
<i>the bestseller that inspired the film</i>

953
01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:29.600
<i>released last month…</i>

954
01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:31.880
<i>And the whole fake thing blew up.</i>

955
01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:33.040
<i>…is not a true story.</i>

956
01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:35.560
<i>Everything is false.</i>

957
01:01:35.640 --> 01:01:37.120
<i>It was a big scam.</i>

958
01:01:46.680 --> 01:01:48.520
<i>[director, in English] House lights.</i>

959
01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:52.920
<i>I came home,</i>
<i>I immediately went to my computer,</i>

960
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:55.720
<i>I put in her name and there it was.</i>

961
01:01:56.440 --> 01:01:59.400
<i>[reporter, in French]</i>
The beautiful story was entirely false.

962
01:01:59.480 --> 01:02:01.200
<i>In Belgium, her country of origin,</i>

963
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:05.880
<i>historians have discovered Misha Defonseca</i>
<i>is actually Monique de Wael.</i>

964
01:02:06.720 --> 01:02:11.440 line:5%
<i>I think I felt like my blood</i>
<i>just drained from my body, you know.</i>

965
01:02:11.520 --> 01:02:14.560 line:5%
<i>How… How can this possibly be?</i>

966
01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:17.960
<i>I was angry.</i>

967
01:02:18.040 --> 01:02:20.840
<i>I was sad. I was hurt.</i>

968
01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:22.520
<i>I felt betrayed.</i>

969
01:02:22.600 --> 01:02:24.040
<i>I felt used.</i>

970
01:02:25.320 --> 01:02:28.080
<i>She became that close a friend to me</i>

971
01:02:28.720 --> 01:02:32.440
<i>that when we had a litter of pups born,</i>
<i>we named one Misha.</i>

972
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:36.920
<i>It was just heartbreaking.</i>

973
01:02:38.200 --> 01:02:39.720
<i>Absolutely heartbreaking.</i>

974
01:02:40.720 --> 01:02:43.040
<i>-Hey, baby girl.</i>
<i>-[wolf whines]</i>

975
01:02:43.120 --> 01:02:46.440
<i>We were duped, just like the rest of you.</i>

976
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:50.440
<i>[dramatic music playing]</i>

977
01:02:50.520 --> 01:02:56.280
<i>[Karen] That fact that she lied</i>
<i>about her being a Holocaust survivor</i>

978
01:02:57.080 --> 01:02:58.480
<i>made me cry.</i>

979
01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:02.520
<i>Misha Defonseca played on sympathy.</i>

980
01:03:02.600 --> 01:03:05.520 line:5%
<i>That's how she became</i>
<i>a wonderful storyteller.</i>

981
01:03:05.600 --> 01:03:07.040 line:5%
<i>Sympathy.</i>

982
01:03:07.120 --> 01:03:10.440
<i>That's how Misha Defonseca</i>
<i>was able to fool people.</i>

983
01:03:10.520 --> 01:03:11.720
<i>Sympathy.</i>

984
01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:14.840
<i>[delicate music playing]</i>

985
01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:18.120
<i>[Pat] I burst into tears.</i>

986
01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:23.880
<i>I just felt so taken advantage of</i>
<i>and lied to and all…</i>

987
01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:27.320 line:5%
<i>Ugh! The lies and the bitterness</i>
<i>and everything came out.</i>

988
01:03:28.680 --> 01:03:32.240
<i>Some of my neighbors did give her</i>
<i>quite large sums of money.</i>

989
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:36.600
<i>We're talking $25-30,000</i>
<i>to help her save the house.</i>

990
01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:43.040
<i>She'd go to the rabbis</i>
<i>and ask for donations from the temple.</i>

991
01:03:44.600 --> 01:03:46.240
<i>The entire community…</i>

992
01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:52.120
<i>that knew her, my neighbors,</i>
<i>nobody talked to her again that I knew of.</i>

993
01:03:56.160 --> 01:03:57.680
<i>Everybody felt betrayed.</i>

994
01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:00.720
<i>Yeah.</i>

995
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:05.760
<i>[pensive music playing]</i>

996
01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:11.080
<i>[Mommer, in French]</i>
<i>There was a sort of anger that rose in me</i>

997
01:04:11.160 --> 01:04:15.160 line:5%
<i>which never left me.</i>

998
01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:20.760
<i>The students who took part in the project,</i>

999
01:04:23.040 --> 01:04:26.920
<i>the day I entered the class,</i>

1000
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:30.360
<i>there was a state of revolt.</i>

1001
01:04:31.120 --> 01:04:34.280
<i>You have to imagine a pack in revolt.</i>

1002
01:04:35.640 --> 01:04:39.520
<i>Rants, tears, cries.</i>

1003
01:04:39.600 --> 01:04:42.760
<i>[exhales] They were standing up</i>
<i>on the benches.</i>

1004
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:45.120
<i>I was no longer in control,</i>

1005
01:04:45.200 --> 01:04:48.800
<i>and I usually contained my students</i>
<i>very well.</i>

1006
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:52.800
<i>I contacted Misha straight away.</i>

1007
01:04:53.720 --> 01:04:56.960
<i>I wanted to be honest</i>
<i>and authentic with her.</i>

1008
01:04:57.560 --> 01:05:02.360
<i>But she said, "Don't worry."</i>

1009
01:05:03.240 --> 01:05:08.240
<i>"It must be the doing</i>
<i>of the publisher in America."</i>

1010
01:05:12.160 --> 01:05:14.160
<i>[crew speaking indistinctly]</i>

1011
01:05:16.160 --> 01:05:19.440
<i>[Jane, in English] And then came</i>
<i>the next twist in the story.</i>

1012
01:05:20.040 --> 01:05:22.840
<i>It couldn't have gotten more bizarre.</i>

1013
01:05:24.160 --> 01:05:27.120
<i>I said to myself,</i>
<i>"I could never make up this plot."</i>

1014
01:05:27.200 --> 01:05:28.840
<i>If I did, somebody would say,</i>

1015
01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:31.200
<i>"This is preposterous.</i>
<i>This would not happen."</i>

1016
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:36.800
<i>[Marc Metdepenningen, in French]</i>
<i>Every journalist dreams of a scoop.</i>

1017
01:05:43.640 --> 01:05:46.120 line:5%
<i>The question for me was,</i>

1018
01:05:46.200 --> 01:05:49.160 line:5%
<i>if her story is false,</i>

1019
01:05:49.240 --> 01:05:51.520
<i>then what is her real story?</i>

1020
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:55.800
<i>What I simply did</i>

1021
01:05:55.880 --> 01:05:59.920
<i>was go through the Brussels phone book</i>

1022
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:03.680
<i>where there are approximately</i>
<i>400 de Waels.</i>

1023
01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:08.960
<i>So I started to call them</i>
<i>one after the other.</i>

1024
01:06:10.640 --> 01:06:13.240
<i>And at the 44th or 43rd name,</i>

1025
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:17.080
<i>I stumbled across a woman called</i>
<i>Emma de Wael.</i>

1026
01:06:17.160 --> 01:06:20.920
<i>[inquisitive music playing]</i>

1027
01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:25.720
<i>[Marc] My meeting with Emma, Misha's aunt,</i>

1028
01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:28.560
<i>was extraordinary.</i>

1029
01:06:29.680 --> 01:06:32.360
<i>She didn't go off</i>
<i>in search of her parents?</i>

1030
01:06:32.440 --> 01:06:34.200
<i>[in French] Good God, no.</i>

1031
01:06:35.200 --> 01:06:38.960 line:5%
<i>She stayed with her grandfather</i>
<i>and grandmother.</i>

1032
01:06:39.040 --> 01:06:42.400
<i>Emma told me</i>

1033
01:06:43.160 --> 01:06:46.440
<i>her niece had always been delusional,</i>

1034
01:06:46.520 --> 01:06:51.280
<i>that she would create</i>
<i>imaginary worlds for herself.</i>

1035
01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:55.160
<i>I went and fetched her regularly</i>

1036
01:06:56.080 --> 01:06:59.560
<i>with the number 56 tram to Anderlecht</i>

1037
01:06:59.640 --> 01:07:02.920
<i>and brought her to Schaerbeek.</i>

1038
01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:07.520
<i>In the evenings,</i>
<i>I took her back to Uncle Ernest.</i>

1039
01:07:07.600 --> 01:07:10.680
<i>[tense music playing]</i>

1040
01:07:10.760 --> 01:07:11.760
<i>[gunshots]</i>

1041
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:14.760
<i>[Marc] Emma de Wael</i>

1042
01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:17.960
<i>told me the truth</i>

1043
01:07:18.040 --> 01:07:20.960
<i>about what happened during the war.</i>

1044
01:07:21.680 --> 01:07:25.560
<i>What happened to Robert de Wael,</i>
<i>Misha Defonseca's father.</i>

1045
01:07:30.040 --> 01:07:33.320
<i>[soft, solemn music playing]</i>

1046
01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:37.720
<i>[man, in French] Robert de Wael</i>
<i>worked at Schaerbeek town hall.</i>

1047
01:07:42.040 --> 01:07:44.080 line:5%
<i>He was really very patriotic</i>

1048
01:07:44.160 --> 01:07:46.760 line:5%
<i>and very engaged in his role</i>
<i>as a reserve officer.</i>

1049
01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:50.400
<i>I met Jean-Philippe Tondeur by chance</i>

1050
01:07:51.600 --> 01:07:55.840
<i>but he had a lot of documentation</i>

1051
01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:58.640
<i>on Misha Defonseca's father.</i>

1052
01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:04.960
<i>So I went to consult</i>
<i>Robert de Wael's file.</i>

1053
01:08:10.160 --> 01:08:12.560
<i>[restrained, dramatic music playing]</i>

1054
01:08:12.640 --> 01:08:16.440
<i>[Tondeur] On 10th of May, 1940,</i>
<i>the Germans invade Belgium.</i>

1055
01:08:18.680 --> 01:08:20.080
<i>[explosion]</i>

1056
01:08:20.160 --> 01:08:24.920
<i>[Tondeur] They crush the Belgian army</i>
<i>during an 18-day campaign.</i>

1057
01:08:31.040 --> 01:08:34.640
<i>The king surrenders</i>

1058
01:08:35.240 --> 01:08:36.760
<i>and Belgium is occupied.</i>

1059
01:08:39.160 --> 01:08:43.040
<i>Robert de Wael joins the resistance…</i>

1060
01:08:43.120 --> 01:08:44.120
<i>[bell tolling]</i>

1061
01:08:44.200 --> 01:08:46.480
<i>…and begins to recruit</i>
<i>resistance fighters.</i>

1062
01:08:52.760 --> 01:08:55.000
<i>[Marc] As a resistance fighter,</i>

1063
01:08:55.680 --> 01:08:57.600
<i>Robert de Wael</i>

1064
01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:00.920
<i>was involved in gathering weapons…</i>

1065
01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:06.000
<i>activating intelligence networks</i>

1066
01:09:08.240 --> 01:09:11.760
<i>and transmitting intelligence</i>
<i>to the Belgian government</i>

1067
01:09:11.840 --> 01:09:13.560
<i>which had gone to London.</i>

1068
01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:14.640
<i>[beeping]</i>

1069
01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:17.640
<i>Unfortunately, Robert de Wael</i>
<i>wasn't very discreet</i>

1070
01:09:17.720 --> 01:09:19.720
<i>about his activities for the resistance.</i>

1071
01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:22.760
<i>[suspenseful music playing]</i>

1072
01:09:24.360 --> 01:09:26.600
<i>[Emma de Wael] He had a loose tongue.</i>

1073
01:09:27.880 --> 01:09:30.440
<i>He was proud of what he was doing.</i>

1074
01:09:31.120 --> 01:09:32.760
<i>Because I knew he had</i>

1075
01:09:33.440 --> 01:09:34.720
<i>secret documents.</i>

1076
01:09:34.800 --> 01:09:37.560
<i>He even showed them to us at home.</i>

1077
01:09:38.680 --> 01:09:41.680
<i>My father told him to be careful,</i>

1078
01:09:42.320 --> 01:09:44.480
<i>that he was becoming careless.</i>

1079
01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:46.400
<i>He risked arrest.</i>

1080
01:09:48.320 --> 01:09:53.960
<i>He was denounced by a Nazi collaborator</i>

1081
01:09:55.040 --> 01:09:57.960
<i>and was quickly arrested.</i>

1082
01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:01.560
<i>[Tondeur] Robert de Wael, his wife</i>

1083
01:10:01.640 --> 01:10:05.400
<i>and 41 arrested resistance fighters</i>

1084
01:10:06.240 --> 01:10:08.360
<i>are deported to Germany…</i>

1085
01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:16.760
<i>and sent to</i>
<i>the Brauweiler Prison in Cologne.</i>

1086
01:10:18.280 --> 01:10:22.920
<i>The Cologne prison</i>
<i>had a very harsh regime.</i>

1087
01:10:27.120 --> 01:10:30.440
<i>[Tondeur] He is interrogated</i>
<i>by the Gestapo.</i>

1088
01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:34.800
<i>He starts to scream.</i>

1089
01:10:34.880 --> 01:10:36.960
<i>[chilling music playing]</i>

1090
01:10:38.080 --> 01:10:39.840
<i>Robert de Wael cracks.</i>

1091
01:10:46.360 --> 01:10:52.400
<i>[Marc] Robert de Wael </i>
<i>made a deal in the Cologne prison.</i>

1092
01:10:52.480 --> 01:10:54.440
<i>This deal involved him</i>

1093
01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:59.320
<i>handing over the names</i>
<i>of his fellow resistance fighters</i>

1094
01:10:59.400 --> 01:11:03.720
<i>in exchange for his wife being protected</i>

1095
01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:05.680
<i>and to once again see his daughter,</i>

1096
01:11:05.760 --> 01:11:07.320
<i>Misha Defonseca.</i>

1097
01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:15.720
<i>[Tondeur] In August 1942,</i>
<i>after betraying his fellow officers,</i>

1098
01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:17.720
<i>as the Germans had demanded of him,</i>

1099
01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:22.520
<i>Robert de Wael got one last opportunity</i>
<i>to see his daughter.</i>

1100
01:11:26.360 --> 01:11:27.680
<i>And that would be</i>

1101
01:11:28.840 --> 01:11:30.760
<i>the end for…</i>

1102
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:35.680
<i>for Robert de Wael,</i>
<i>who was later deported.</i>

1103
01:11:41.360 --> 01:11:44.600
<i>Robert and his wife Germaine</i>
<i>would both die in the German camps.</i>

1104
01:11:50.040 --> 01:11:52.000
<i>We called her "The Traitor's Daughter."</i>

1105
01:11:54.240 --> 01:11:57.000
<i>Because it was said that her father</i>

1106
01:11:57.680 --> 01:12:00.000
<i>sided with the Germans.</i>

1107
01:12:00.080 --> 01:12:03.560
<i>[mournful music playing]</i>

1108
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:13.360
<i>[Tondeur] The municipality of Schaerbeek</i>
<i>would engrave a plaque</i>

1109
01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:18.440
<i>in the name of the resistance fighters</i>
<i>who died during the war.</i>

1110
01:12:24.440 --> 01:12:25.960
<i>Robert de Wael,</i>

1111
01:12:26.040 --> 01:12:28.000
<i>whose name was listed last…</i>

1112
01:12:31.360 --> 01:12:33.120
<i>was later erased.</i>

1113
01:12:37.800 --> 01:12:39.440
<i>[Marc] On 22nd of February 2008,</i>

1114
01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:43.520
<i>once things were very clear,</i>

1115
01:12:44.160 --> 01:12:48.800
<i>uh, we published</i>
<i>Robert de Wael's whole story,</i>

1116
01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:50.160
<i>the betrayal,</i>

1117
01:12:50.240 --> 01:12:54.120
<i>the falseness</i>
<i>of Misha Defonseca's account.</i>

1118
01:12:54.880 --> 01:12:56.600
<i>And in the hours that followed,</i>

1119
01:12:56.680 --> 01:12:59.360
<i>a statement was issued.</i>

1120
01:13:00.160 --> 01:13:02.880
<i>This is Misha Defonseca's statement.</i>

1121
01:13:02.960 --> 01:13:06.920
<i>[haunting music playing]</i>

1122
01:13:10.280 --> 01:13:13.080
<i>"They called me 'The Traitor's Daughter'</i>

1123
01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:19.000
<i>because my father was suspected</i>
<i>of having spoken under torture."</i>

1124
01:13:24.640 --> 01:13:25.520
<i>"This book,</i>

1125
01:13:25.600 --> 01:13:27.600
<i>this story, is mine."</i>

1126
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:32.120
<i>[evocative music rising]</i>

1127
01:13:32.200 --> 01:13:34.400
<i>"It is not the actual reality,</i>

1128
01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:40.040
<i>but it was my reality…</i>

1129
01:13:42.480 --> 01:13:44.000
<i>my way of surviving."</i>

1130
01:13:47.360 --> 01:13:49.000
<i>"I ask forgiveness."</i>

1131
01:13:50.840 --> 01:13:55.640
<i>"All I ever wanted</i>
<i>was to exorcise my suffering."</i>

1132
01:14:05.280 --> 01:14:06.600
<i>[growling]</i>

1133
01:14:09.360 --> 01:14:11.640
<i>[in French] I felt so rejected,</i>

1134
01:14:11.720 --> 01:14:13.840
<i>but I could not explain it to myself,</i>

1135
01:14:13.920 --> 01:14:16.080
<i>neither to my grandmother</i>
<i>or my grandfather.</i>

1136
01:14:17.120 --> 01:14:20.480
<i>I am not the girl I thought,</i>

1137
01:14:21.080 --> 01:14:23.240
<i>but there are times…</i>

1138
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:25.280
<i>when I still hesitate.</i>

1139
01:14:25.360 --> 01:14:27.160
<i>I say to myself,</i>

1140
01:14:27.240 --> 01:14:29.240
<i>"Did I or didn't I experience it?"</i>

1141
01:14:29.320 --> 01:14:30.840
<i>I have to think.</i>

1142
01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:35.040
<i>Particularly with animals.</i>

1143
01:14:35.120 --> 01:14:37.440
<i>Particularly with animals.</i>

1144
01:14:37.520 --> 01:14:39.600
<i>-[growling]</i>
<i>-I can still see myself</i>

1145
01:14:40.120 --> 01:14:43.040
<i>rolling on the ground with wolves.</i>

1146
01:14:53.440 --> 01:14:57.400
<i>[delicate music playing]</i>

1147
01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:01.920
<i>Have you seen my lovely wolves?</i>

1148
01:15:04.720 --> 01:15:06.000
<i>They will always be</i>

1149
01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:07.800
<i>my wolves.</i>

1150
01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:11.680
<i>I will be always at their side.</i>

1151
01:15:12.760 --> 01:15:16.360
<i>Even if I know the truth now.</i>

1152
01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:20.520
<i>I am at their side.</i>

1153
01:15:21.560 --> 01:15:22.600
<i>[wolves whining]</i>

1154
01:15:22.680 --> 01:15:25.320
<i>I got into a bubble,</i>

1155
01:15:25.400 --> 01:15:27.160
<i>a world of my own.</i>

1156
01:15:28.480 --> 01:15:31.520
<i>And this world of mine</i>
<i>was filled with animals.</i>

1157
01:15:33.560 --> 01:15:35.920
<i>Animals that defended me</i>

1158
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:37.240
<i>against humans.</i>

1159
01:15:57.080 --> 01:15:59.080
<i>[birds twittering]</i>

1160
01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:05.640 line:5%
<i>[Candy, in English]</i>
<i>Listening back to this interview,</i>

1161
01:16:05.720 --> 01:16:09.040 line:5%
<i>the first words in the intro</i>
<i>to the show were…</i>

1162
01:16:10.360 --> 01:16:13.040
<i>[on radio]</i> line:5%
"Sometimes a story's so astonishing,

1163
01:16:13.120 --> 01:16:15.080
<i>-it's unbelievable."</i>
-[mouthing along]

1164
01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:19.760
<i>That's pretty astonishing. [chuckles]</i>
<i>That those were the first words.</i>

1165
01:16:20.880 --> 01:16:23.960
<i>And then it turns out, it's not true.</i>

1166
01:16:30.640 --> 01:16:32.040 line:5%
<i>I believed her.</i>

1167
01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:35.440 line:5%
<i>I didn't see anything in those eyes</i>

1168
01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:38.160
<i>that made me think</i>
<i>she wasn't telling me the truth.</i>

1169
01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:42.160
<i>[Defonseca on headphones] </i>Fear for me,
at this time, was the German.

1170
01:16:42.240 --> 01:16:43.200
<i>It was the…</i>

1171
01:16:43.280 --> 01:16:48.080
<i>[Candy O'Terry] All I was doing</i>
<i>was looking for more truth</i>

1172
01:16:48.160 --> 01:16:51.160
<i>to confirm what I already believed.</i>

1173
01:16:51.240 --> 01:16:54.240
<i>In hindsight, it's chilling.</i>

1174
01:16:56.120 --> 01:16:58.320
<i>But for me, at that moment,</i>

1175
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:03.680
<i>I was so respectful</i>
<i>of someone's experience,</i>

1176
01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:07.520
<i>at what I think we all,</i>
<i>as citizens of the world,</i>

1177
01:17:07.600 --> 01:17:12.280
<i>will recognize was the darkest time</i>
<i>in the history of our world.</i>

1178
01:17:13.200 --> 01:17:15.880
<i>Far be it from me to question her.</i>

1179
01:17:15.960 --> 01:17:17.840
<i>[film projector whirring]</i>

1180
01:17:22.240 --> 01:17:26.680
<i>[Debórah Dwork] Questioning</i>
<i>someone's claim to be a Holocaust survivor</i>

1181
01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:28.560
<i>is very difficult.</i>

1182
01:17:29.840 --> 01:17:34.400
<i>One brings a great deal of diffidence</i>
<i>to those claims.</i>

1183
01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:38.680
<i>[projector stops]</i>

1184
01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:41.680
<i>But the danger of believing everything</i>

1185
01:17:43.680 --> 01:17:46.200
<i>puts history</i>

1186
01:17:47.320 --> 01:17:50.000
<i>and the historical reality</i>

1187
01:17:50.680 --> 01:17:53.960
<i>of genuine survivors at risk.</i>

1188
01:17:59.160 --> 01:18:02.600
<i>In December 1996,</i>

1189
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:08.360
<i>I got a letter and a manuscript</i>
<i>from Jane Daniel.</i>

1190
01:18:09.400 --> 01:18:13.640
<i>That manuscript was </i>Misha: A Mémoire

1191
01:18:13.720 --> 01:18:17.880 line:5%
<i>by a young girl during the Holocaust.</i>

1192
01:18:20.240 --> 01:18:22.000
<i>I called Jane Daniel</i>

1193
01:18:22.080 --> 01:18:26.640
<i>to explain why this narrative</i>
<i>just did not work.</i>

1194
01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:29.720
<i>I said to her,</i>

1195
01:18:29.800 --> 01:18:32.880
<i>"I would not publish this book."</i>

1196
01:18:36.880 --> 01:18:39.480
<i>I have thought a lot over the years</i>

1197
01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:45.320
<i>as to why Jane Daniel</i>
<i>decided to go forward with publication.</i>

1198
01:18:47.040 --> 01:18:49.080
<i>She clearly hoped</i>

1199
01:18:49.960 --> 01:18:52.800
<i>that the manuscript was true,</i>

1200
01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:58.480
<i>but she clearly worried that it was not.</i>

1201
01:18:59.720 --> 01:19:01.680
<i>I think it was greed</i>

1202
01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:05.880
<i>that powered this narrative</i>

1203
01:19:07.640 --> 01:19:11.280
<i>for Misha and Jane Daniel.</i>

1204
01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:17.720
<i>And then, as those sales figures rose,</i>

1205
01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:19.880
<i>more and more people</i>

1206
01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:24.840
<i>accepted the memoir as real and as true.</i>

1207
01:19:28.320 --> 01:19:31.160
<i>[Jane] I admit it,</i>
<i>I had created the monster.</i>

1208
01:19:31.240 --> 01:19:32.600
<i>She was my monster.</i>

1209
01:19:32.680 --> 01:19:37.240
<i>I had created this person</i>
<i>with enormous sympathy as a character.</i>

1210
01:19:38.440 --> 01:19:40.640
<i>Somebody who had suffered terribly.</i>

1211
01:19:40.720 --> 01:19:43.880
<i>Somebody who deserved respect</i>
<i>and, in fact, awe.</i>

1212
01:19:45.360 --> 01:19:47.600
<i>And nobody wants to admit</i>
<i>that they were tricked.</i>

1213
01:19:47.680 --> 01:19:50.960
<i>And I admit it,</i>
<i>I was tricked by her, I believed her.</i>

1214
01:19:52.200 --> 01:19:53.840
<i>Everybody was seduced.</i>

1215
01:19:54.360 --> 01:19:57.760
<i>The American jurisprudence system,</i>
<i>the judges and the juries,</i>

1216
01:19:57.840 --> 01:19:59.560
<i>we were all seduced by the story.</i>

1217
01:20:02.680 --> 01:20:04.520
<i>[Evelyne] It's human to believe.</i>

1218
01:20:05.120 --> 01:20:07.560
<i>Credibility is something else.</i>

1219
01:20:09.760 --> 01:20:12.840
<i>It's your need to question</i>
<i>if things are not</i>

1220
01:20:12.920 --> 01:20:19.760
<i>that will help you discern</i>
<i>what's true and what's not true.</i>

1221
01:20:21.880 --> 01:20:24.480
<i>[in French]</i>
<i>You killed a human being with a knife?</i>

1222
01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:27.800
<i>Because I saw the rape</i>

1223
01:20:27.880 --> 01:20:29.920
<i>of a little girl.</i>

1224
01:20:33.520 --> 01:20:36.000
<i>[Mommer, in French] I have enough distance</i>

1225
01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:41.160
<i>to take a more analytical look</i>
<i>at Misha's character.</i>

1226
01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:44.280
<i>When I saw that, I jumped</i>

1227
01:20:44.360 --> 01:20:47.200
<i>because he turned and came towards me.</i>

1228
01:20:47.280 --> 01:20:50.040
<i>At that moment,</i>
<i>I only thought about one thing,</i>

1229
01:20:50.120 --> 01:20:51.120
<i>to live.</i>

1230
01:20:51.200 --> 01:20:52.480
<i>Because I wanted to live.</i>

1231
01:20:52.560 --> 01:20:57.480
<i>Misha created a world for herself,</i>

1232
01:20:57.560 --> 01:20:59.800
<i>a world of her own belief.</i>

1233
01:21:00.440 --> 01:21:04.160
<i>When he was close,</i>
<i>I stabbed him in the stomach.</i>

1234
01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:08.680
<i>I slashed everywhere.</i>

1235
01:21:08.760 --> 01:21:10.520
<i>The throat, the face.</i>

1236
01:21:10.600 --> 01:21:12.200
<i>I was covered in blood.</i>

1237
01:21:12.760 --> 01:21:16.160
<i>It was horrible.</i>

1238
01:21:16.240 --> 01:21:18.720
<i>Writing this book</i>

1239
01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:21.320
<i>has caused me to relive…</i>

1240
01:21:21.960 --> 01:21:23.560
<i>[voice breaking] …my nightmares.</i>

1241
01:21:23.640 --> 01:21:30.240
<i>[Mommer] Misha sought refuge</i>
<i>in mythomania,</i>

1242
01:21:30.320 --> 01:21:33.960
<i>and with time,</i>

1243
01:21:34.040 --> 01:21:38.040
<i>she slowly becomes</i>

1244
01:21:38.120 --> 01:21:42.040
<i>a character in her own story.</i>

1245
01:21:42.120 --> 01:21:43.920
<i>Every time I stabbed,</i>

1246
01:21:44.000 --> 01:21:46.640
<i>it was for this little girl,</i>
<i>it was for the children,</i>

1247
01:21:46.720 --> 01:21:48.440
<i>it was for my parents.</i>

1248
01:21:48.520 --> 01:21:51.200
<i>[in English]</i>
<i>I think that we would like to believe</i>

1249
01:21:52.080 --> 01:21:55.400
<i>that Misha Defonseca believed</i>

1250
01:21:56.080 --> 01:21:59.120
<i>that she was a survivor of the Holocaust.</i>

1251
01:21:59.200 --> 01:22:01.280
<i>I think we would like to believe</i>

1252
01:22:02.320 --> 01:22:05.240
<i>that we were not so naive,</i>

1253
01:22:06.080 --> 01:22:09.520
<i>that we believed it</i>
<i>because she believed it.</i>

1254
01:22:10.080 --> 01:22:12.600
<i>And we would even like to believe</i>

1255
01:22:13.200 --> 01:22:17.880
<i>that this narrative</i>
<i>has a redemptive purpose,</i>

1256
01:22:17.960 --> 01:22:23.000
<i>because it made right</i>
<i>the wrong of her childhood.</i>

1257
01:22:23.520 --> 01:22:25.160
<i>I think it's nonsense.</i>

1258
01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:29.280
<i>There is no redemptive purpose.</i>

1259
01:22:30.120 --> 01:22:31.760
<i>We </i>were<i> so naive.</i>

1260
01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:35.120
<i>It was all a fabrication.</i>

1261
01:22:39.880 --> 01:22:42.400 line:5%
<i>[Evelyne] How I feel about her today…</i>

1262
01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:46.920
<i>[smacks lips]</i>

1263
01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:50.600
<i>Mixed… Mixed emotions.</i>

1264
01:22:54.320 --> 01:22:59.720 line:5%
<i>I think that she was a protagonist</i>
<i>of this story, but she was not alone.</i>

1265
01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:04.920 line:5%
<i>There were other people that helped</i>

1266
01:23:05.520 --> 01:23:07.760
<i>to make this, uh,</i>

1267
01:23:08.520 --> 01:23:10.840
<i>biography be a bestseller.</i>

1268
01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:14.440
<i>[delicate music playing]</i>

1269
01:23:16.160 --> 01:23:20.680
<i>[Evelyne] Just talking about her</i>
<i>right now, and the search,</i>

1270
01:23:21.520 --> 01:23:23.760
<i>and the years that went by…</i>

1271
01:23:27.400 --> 01:23:28.600
<i>Some pity…</i>

1272
01:23:29.600 --> 01:23:30.800
<i>Some pity.</i>

1273
01:23:32.800 --> 01:23:33.880
<i>Uh…</i>

1274
01:23:36.280 --> 01:23:37.720
<i>Some repulsion…</i>

1275
01:23:38.560 --> 01:23:41.680
<i>Maybe it's too hard a word, but…</i>

1276
01:23:47.680 --> 01:23:50.760
<i>I'm feeling some uh, understanding.</i>

1277
01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:57.720
<i>As a child, it must have been</i>
<i>very difficult for her after the war,</i>

1278
01:23:59.400 --> 01:24:04.720
<i>the fact that her father</i>
<i>was called a traitor, a collaborator.</i>

1279
01:24:07.960 --> 01:24:10.600
<i>She's both a victim and a villain.</i>

1280
01:24:12.040 --> 01:24:13.120
<i>She's both.</i>

1281
01:24:14.240 --> 01:24:16.200
<i>She is both in this story.</i>

1282
01:24:18.440 --> 01:24:22.040
<i>[plaintive music playing]</i>

1283
01:24:31.520 --> 01:24:34.640
<i>[wolf howling, distant]</i>

1284
01:25:04.800 --> 01:25:07.480
<i>[delicate, evocative music playing]</i>