1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:06,730 --> 00:00:08,353 -"Rosemary Pauline West, 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 4 00:00:08,456 --> 00:00:10,286 on each of the ten counts of murder, 5 00:00:10,389 --> 00:00:13,323 the sentence is one of life imprisonment." 6 00:00:13,427 --> 00:00:17,155 -Throughout her trial, Rose West maintained she was innocent. 7 00:00:17,258 --> 00:00:19,122 ♪♪ 8 00:00:19,226 --> 00:00:21,642 It turned out that she was just 17 9 00:00:21,745 --> 00:00:24,058 when she began the most sadistic killing spree 10 00:00:24,162 --> 00:00:26,198 Britain has ever witnessed. 11 00:00:26,302 --> 00:00:28,442 -She wanted to hurt women as much as she could. 12 00:00:28,545 --> 00:00:31,169 -The more macabre nature of this torture 13 00:00:31,272 --> 00:00:32,963 got progressively worse, 14 00:00:33,067 --> 00:00:35,690 with one killing following another. 15 00:00:35,794 --> 00:00:38,279 -But how did this local housewife become one 16 00:00:38,383 --> 00:00:42,318 of the most depraved killers in history? 17 00:00:42,421 --> 00:00:46,356 Could Rose's childhood have transformed her into a killer? 18 00:00:46,460 --> 00:00:48,738 -Rose was definitely in charge in the West household. 19 00:00:48,841 --> 00:00:51,292 There was no denying that. 20 00:00:51,396 --> 00:00:54,226 -We'll speak to the people who knew her best... 21 00:00:54,330 --> 00:00:56,297 -You could hear the screams and the shouts 22 00:00:56,401 --> 00:00:59,128 and it was awful to hear. 23 00:00:59,231 --> 00:01:02,200 -...and discover a history of mental illness... 24 00:01:02,303 --> 00:01:04,478 -She went into a little bubble of her own. 25 00:01:04,581 --> 00:01:06,031 -...brutal therapies... 26 00:01:06,135 --> 00:01:08,309 -The seizures would be violent. 27 00:01:08,413 --> 00:01:11,899 She would've not found solace in the outside world. 28 00:01:12,002 --> 00:01:14,867 -...and uncover generations of abuse. 29 00:01:14,971 --> 00:01:18,906 -He'd actually been grooming her from quite a young age. 30 00:01:19,009 --> 00:01:22,979 -There's no doubt that he altered his daughter Rose. 31 00:01:23,083 --> 00:01:25,085 ♪♪ 32 00:01:25,188 --> 00:01:29,710 -Was Rose West raised to become a killer 33 00:01:29,813 --> 00:01:31,815 or was she born evil? 34 00:01:31,919 --> 00:01:39,996 ♪♪ 35 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:44,897 1970 marks a new bohemian era for Great Britain. 36 00:01:45,001 --> 00:01:47,866 As glam rock topped the charts, the Brits adopted 37 00:01:47,969 --> 00:01:50,662 this new, free-spirited, permissive lifestyle. 38 00:01:50,765 --> 00:01:53,906 ♪♪ 39 00:01:54,010 --> 00:01:56,116 And, for 16-year-old Rosemary Letts, 40 00:01:56,219 --> 00:01:58,359 life couldn't be better. 41 00:01:58,463 --> 00:02:00,154 She's moved in with her new lover, 42 00:02:00,258 --> 00:02:02,122 29-year-old Fred; 43 00:02:02,225 --> 00:02:03,433 his stepdaughter, Charmaine; 44 00:02:03,537 --> 00:02:05,746 and daughter, Anne Marie. 45 00:02:05,849 --> 00:02:07,817 And, nine months later, the couple introduce 46 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,370 baby Heather to the world. 47 00:02:09,474 --> 00:02:11,200 ♪♪ 48 00:02:11,303 --> 00:02:14,099 -Rose is living in a kind of fairy-tale dream, at this point. 49 00:02:14,203 --> 00:02:15,825 She's got this little family 50 00:02:15,928 --> 00:02:19,069 and she has this older chap who's going to take care of her. 51 00:02:19,173 --> 00:02:22,418 So things were looking quite bright, at this point. 52 00:02:22,521 --> 00:02:25,145 And then, Fred goes to prison 53 00:02:25,248 --> 00:02:27,768 and her world comes crashing down. 54 00:02:27,871 --> 00:02:29,252 -Rose learnt the hard way 55 00:02:29,356 --> 00:02:31,944 that the man of her dreams was a petty thief. 56 00:02:32,048 --> 00:02:33,705 -Fred was a kleptomaniac. 57 00:02:33,808 --> 00:02:36,984 If anything wasn't actually nailed down, he would take it 58 00:02:37,087 --> 00:02:40,125 and so he was often in and out of prison. 59 00:02:40,229 --> 00:02:42,817 -Fred was sentenced to ten months in jail, 60 00:02:42,921 --> 00:02:44,371 leaving Rose all alone 61 00:02:44,474 --> 00:02:48,029 to raise baby Heather, Anne Marie, and Charmaine. 62 00:02:48,133 --> 00:02:50,273 -She was actually living in squalor 63 00:02:50,377 --> 00:02:53,276 with three small children, unable to cope. 64 00:02:53,380 --> 00:02:56,141 This wasn't the life that Rose had dreamed of. 65 00:02:56,245 --> 00:02:58,661 This wasn't what she'd bargained for. 66 00:02:58,764 --> 00:03:02,182 This fairy tale wasn't working out. 67 00:03:02,285 --> 00:03:05,599 -Just as Rose was learning a lot about Fred's past, 68 00:03:05,702 --> 00:03:07,359 he would learn about hers. 69 00:03:07,463 --> 00:03:08,429 [Static crackles] 70 00:03:08,533 --> 00:03:09,844 -Years after the young girl 71 00:03:09,948 --> 00:03:12,192 went missing, her remains were uncovered, 72 00:03:12,295 --> 00:03:14,918 buried under a kitchen floor. 73 00:03:15,022 --> 00:03:17,404 -In the summer of 1971, 74 00:03:17,507 --> 00:03:20,959 17-year-old Rose murders her first victim -- 75 00:03:21,062 --> 00:03:23,203 eight-year-old Charmaine. 76 00:03:23,306 --> 00:03:24,687 -In Gloucester's Midland Road, 77 00:03:24,790 --> 00:03:26,758 she did not get on with her stepmother. 78 00:03:26,861 --> 00:03:29,139 -She told Rose, "You're not my mother. 79 00:03:29,243 --> 00:03:30,140 You can't do this. 80 00:03:30,244 --> 00:03:31,866 You can't say that to me," 81 00:03:31,970 --> 00:03:34,110 and Rose would lash out. 82 00:03:34,214 --> 00:03:36,906 She just picked up anything that was to hand 83 00:03:37,009 --> 00:03:39,426 and would hit, jab, do whatever. 84 00:03:39,529 --> 00:03:44,983 And then, she would tie her to the bed and whip her. 85 00:03:45,086 --> 00:03:48,987 -After one brutal outburst, Rose kills Charmaine. 86 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:50,368 [Static crackles] -Rosemary West has spent 87 00:03:50,471 --> 00:03:52,646 her first night behind prison bars. 88 00:03:52,749 --> 00:03:55,959 Rosemary West has been charged with ten counts of murder. 89 00:03:56,063 --> 00:03:57,133 She remains in custody, 90 00:03:57,237 --> 00:03:58,548 where she denies all involvement. 91 00:03:58,652 --> 00:04:00,654 -Today, Rosemary West's solicitor told 92 00:04:00,757 --> 00:04:02,863 how she's in severe shock. 93 00:04:02,966 --> 00:04:05,555 -In her cell at Pucklechurch Remand Centre, 94 00:04:05,659 --> 00:04:07,799 Rosemary West's reaction was simple -- 95 00:04:07,902 --> 00:04:10,146 "I'm innocent," she told her lawyer. 96 00:04:10,250 --> 00:04:11,216 -Okay. 97 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,081 ♪♪ 98 00:04:14,184 --> 00:04:15,600 I think that Rose 99 00:04:15,703 --> 00:04:18,810 was constructed of her life experiences. 100 00:04:18,913 --> 00:04:21,916 She had a reality that she hadn't been able to confront 101 00:04:22,020 --> 00:04:23,193 since her childhood, 102 00:04:23,297 --> 00:04:26,507 the childhood that was stolen from her. 103 00:04:26,611 --> 00:04:29,027 -To understand how Rose crossed the line 104 00:04:29,130 --> 00:04:30,718 from motherhood to murder, 105 00:04:30,822 --> 00:04:33,825 we must go back to a time before she was even born. 106 00:04:33,928 --> 00:04:36,793 [Static crackles] 107 00:04:36,897 --> 00:04:40,901 Rosemary Pauline Letts grew up in beautiful North Devon. 108 00:04:41,004 --> 00:04:43,455 Her father, Bill Letts, was in the Navy 109 00:04:43,559 --> 00:04:45,595 and was often away for months on end, 110 00:04:45,699 --> 00:04:48,495 leaving her mother, Daisy, at home to raise the children. 111 00:04:48,598 --> 00:04:51,463 ♪♪ 112 00:04:51,567 --> 00:04:53,983 -My name is Gill and I grew up, as a child, 113 00:04:54,086 --> 00:04:56,019 next door to the Letts family. 114 00:04:56,123 --> 00:04:57,711 They lived in a semi-detached 115 00:04:57,814 --> 00:05:00,265 and we were right next to them, really, you know? 116 00:05:00,369 --> 00:05:03,372 It was fantastic growing up in Northam. 117 00:05:03,475 --> 00:05:06,444 All the men, they all had jobs, 118 00:05:06,547 --> 00:05:08,273 and the women were just housewives, 119 00:05:08,377 --> 00:05:11,311 bringing up the children, all very house-proud. 120 00:05:11,414 --> 00:05:14,244 Lovely, brand-new houses, nice gardens. 121 00:05:14,348 --> 00:05:16,523 A wonderful place to grow up in. 122 00:05:16,626 --> 00:05:18,145 It seemed like summer was forever. 123 00:05:18,248 --> 00:05:21,251 Maybe you remember the good times. 124 00:05:21,355 --> 00:05:25,566 -During the early 1950s, Britain was kind of optimistic. 125 00:05:25,670 --> 00:05:27,361 It was coming out of a war. 126 00:05:27,465 --> 00:05:29,536 It had managed to get a National Health Service 127 00:05:29,639 --> 00:05:31,227 and various other things, however, 128 00:05:31,331 --> 00:05:33,436 there was a great deal of poverty 129 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:36,922 and you had an awful lot of ex-servicemen 130 00:05:37,026 --> 00:05:38,510 coming into the community, 131 00:05:38,614 --> 00:05:42,756 ill-fitted to settle into normal life. 132 00:05:42,859 --> 00:05:44,654 -Whilst pregnant with Rose, 133 00:05:44,758 --> 00:05:47,933 Daisy was suffering from severe prenatal depression, 134 00:05:48,037 --> 00:05:50,073 so Bill had to leave the Navy 135 00:05:50,177 --> 00:05:52,144 and struggled with the domestic duties 136 00:05:52,248 --> 00:05:55,803 when settling into civilian life. 137 00:05:55,907 --> 00:05:57,943 -Bill Letts could best be described 138 00:05:58,047 --> 00:06:04,640 as brutal, violent, impossible to like. 139 00:06:04,743 --> 00:06:10,162 He bullied, intimidated, and, indeed, in the end, 140 00:06:10,266 --> 00:06:13,373 terrified his wife, Daisy. 141 00:06:13,476 --> 00:06:16,617 -You could hear the screams and the shouts and banging 142 00:06:16,721 --> 00:06:20,000 and it was awful to hear. 143 00:06:20,103 --> 00:06:22,589 Everybody talked about it on the estate. 144 00:06:22,692 --> 00:06:25,592 Daisy's teeth would chatter, she would be so frightened, 145 00:06:25,695 --> 00:06:26,938 and the neighbors would say that she 146 00:06:27,041 --> 00:06:30,182 would come round crying and ask for help. 147 00:06:30,286 --> 00:06:31,391 I think, on one occasion, 148 00:06:31,494 --> 00:06:33,600 my mother did bring social services, 149 00:06:33,703 --> 00:06:36,844 but nothing was ever done about it. 150 00:06:36,948 --> 00:06:38,846 -As the pregnancy progressed, 151 00:06:38,950 --> 00:06:41,193 Daisy sank into a deeper depression 152 00:06:41,297 --> 00:06:43,610 and sought professional help. 153 00:06:43,713 --> 00:06:46,751 -The depression is so severe that it's recommended 154 00:06:46,854 --> 00:06:50,962 that she consider ECT, convulsive therapy. 155 00:06:51,065 --> 00:06:52,688 ♪♪ 156 00:06:52,791 --> 00:06:55,311 Very dramatic therapy, indeed, 157 00:06:55,415 --> 00:06:58,625 involving electrodes attached to the skull, 158 00:06:58,728 --> 00:07:02,767 you know, so-called shock therapy. 159 00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:04,976 -Electroconvulsive therapy was something 160 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:10,499 that was kind of first used in the '40s and in the '50s, 161 00:07:10,602 --> 00:07:12,811 but it was very crude. 162 00:07:12,915 --> 00:07:17,506 The point about ECT is it has to produce a seizure. 163 00:07:17,609 --> 00:07:21,061 Basically, the level of seizure, in Daisy's day, 164 00:07:21,164 --> 00:07:23,443 was that where they'd break teeth, 165 00:07:23,546 --> 00:07:25,583 they would bite through their tongues, 166 00:07:25,686 --> 00:07:27,067 they would break bones. 167 00:07:27,170 --> 00:07:29,518 There was so much amnesia following it, 168 00:07:29,621 --> 00:07:32,003 they wouldn't know which side of the bus stop to stand at. 169 00:07:32,106 --> 00:07:35,455 It was kind of like a crude weapon 170 00:07:35,558 --> 00:07:39,010 that should only ever be used in very severe depression. 171 00:07:39,113 --> 00:07:43,014 So Rose would've felt some of the effects of the ECT 172 00:07:43,117 --> 00:07:44,981 and the seizures that were caused 173 00:07:45,085 --> 00:07:46,189 and they would be violent. 174 00:07:46,293 --> 00:07:51,263 ♪♪ 175 00:07:51,367 --> 00:07:54,163 -And it was only, I think, the day before Rose was born 176 00:07:54,266 --> 00:07:58,478 that she had her last lot of ECT. 177 00:07:58,581 --> 00:08:01,653 I recall the day she came home with her shaven head, 178 00:08:01,757 --> 00:08:03,344 carrying baby Rose, 179 00:08:03,448 --> 00:08:05,243 and I remember going to my mum, saying, 180 00:08:05,346 --> 00:08:06,624 "God, what's happened to Mrs. Letts? 181 00:08:06,727 --> 00:08:08,108 She's got no hair!" 182 00:08:08,211 --> 00:08:11,732 -In my view, it could very well be argued that 183 00:08:11,836 --> 00:08:14,252 Rose's neurological development 184 00:08:14,355 --> 00:08:17,462 will have been retarded, to some degree, 185 00:08:17,566 --> 00:08:21,086 by the ECT procedures that her mother underwent. 186 00:08:21,190 --> 00:08:25,263 To have ECT late in the gestation period, 187 00:08:25,366 --> 00:08:27,714 this often is the more sophisticated parts 188 00:08:27,817 --> 00:08:30,544 of the brain development, the inhibitory parts, 189 00:08:30,648 --> 00:08:32,960 the parts that give us a conscience, 190 00:08:33,064 --> 00:08:34,790 that give us empathy, 191 00:08:34,893 --> 00:08:38,621 that stop us, basically, from doing heinous acts. 192 00:08:38,725 --> 00:08:45,386 ♪♪ 193 00:08:45,490 --> 00:08:51,185 -Rosemary Pauline Letts was born on the 29th of November 1953. 194 00:08:51,289 --> 00:08:52,566 -Rose was a very pretty baby, 195 00:08:52,670 --> 00:08:56,121 lovely hair and lovely olive skin. 196 00:08:56,225 --> 00:08:57,847 -But baby Rose was remembered 197 00:08:57,951 --> 00:09:00,436 for more than her striking features. 198 00:09:00,540 --> 00:09:01,920 -I remember seeing little Rose sitting 199 00:09:02,024 --> 00:09:04,474 in her pram in the garden. 200 00:09:04,578 --> 00:09:06,546 You never heard much from her and she used to do 201 00:09:06,649 --> 00:09:08,651 all this rocking back and forwards 202 00:09:08,755 --> 00:09:13,138 and, you know, she'd be sat there and, you know... 203 00:09:13,242 --> 00:09:15,002 I don't know what that was all about. 204 00:09:15,106 --> 00:09:17,108 It was a strange thing for a kid to do, really, 205 00:09:17,211 --> 00:09:18,316 wasn't it? 206 00:09:18,419 --> 00:09:21,388 -Rose engaged in stereotypies, 207 00:09:21,491 --> 00:09:24,667 basically moving her head, rocking her head. 208 00:09:24,771 --> 00:09:28,257 These things will generate endorphins in the body. 209 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,500 They will soothe the person. 210 00:09:30,604 --> 00:09:32,261 ♪♪ 211 00:09:32,364 --> 00:09:34,677 The rocking that you see in Rose 212 00:09:34,781 --> 00:09:37,507 would often be seen in children that have been abused, 213 00:09:37,611 --> 00:09:41,719 where they're getting comfort from this repeated movement. 214 00:09:41,822 --> 00:09:45,377 She would've not found solace in the outside world 215 00:09:45,481 --> 00:09:48,035 and she would turn in on this kind of behavior 216 00:09:48,139 --> 00:09:52,626 to change her biochemistry, to make her feel okay. 217 00:09:52,730 --> 00:09:54,835 -Despite the hostile household, 218 00:09:54,939 --> 00:09:57,838 Daisy and Bill continued to have more children. 219 00:09:57,942 --> 00:10:01,877 But as the family grew, so did Bill's resentment towards them. 220 00:10:01,980 --> 00:10:05,535 -It's impossible to convey just how dysfunctional 221 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:07,745 the Letts family was. 222 00:10:07,848 --> 00:10:09,298 -Well, the Letts family didn't fit 223 00:10:09,401 --> 00:10:12,715 into the community there at all. 224 00:10:12,819 --> 00:10:15,166 The children never played out. 225 00:10:15,269 --> 00:10:17,306 -You have a father, in Bill Letts, 226 00:10:17,409 --> 00:10:20,412 who is telling you to behave properly at all times. 227 00:10:20,516 --> 00:10:21,690 Swear words are not used. 228 00:10:21,793 --> 00:10:24,037 He doesn't use foul language, 229 00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:25,659 but he's insisting that everything's clean. 230 00:10:25,763 --> 00:10:29,007 If you sit at the table, no one says anything. 231 00:10:29,111 --> 00:10:31,285 I mean, proper. 232 00:10:31,389 --> 00:10:34,254 Everything has to be done correctly. 233 00:10:34,357 --> 00:10:38,603 This is a man who finally found himself in the navy, 234 00:10:38,707 --> 00:10:40,812 as, "Oh, I fit in now. 235 00:10:40,916 --> 00:10:43,470 I haven't fitted in before, but I now fit in. 236 00:10:43,573 --> 00:10:45,575 I know where I am." 237 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,854 -Having been forced to leave the navy, 238 00:10:47,957 --> 00:10:51,512 Bill had lost his status and sense of self-worth, 239 00:10:51,616 --> 00:10:54,032 something he would try and regain at home 240 00:10:54,136 --> 00:10:56,586 by using violence. 241 00:10:56,690 --> 00:10:59,382 -Letts was fierce and intimidating. 242 00:10:59,486 --> 00:11:01,833 You have children who were made to clean the carpet 243 00:11:01,937 --> 00:11:03,593 with toothbrushes, you know. 244 00:11:03,697 --> 00:11:05,319 It's an extraordinary household. 245 00:11:05,423 --> 00:11:08,598 It's unlike anything you could possibly imagine. 246 00:11:08,702 --> 00:11:13,224 You have this tyrant of a father telling them what to do. 247 00:11:13,327 --> 00:11:14,639 You have a mother who's intimidated 248 00:11:14,743 --> 00:11:17,021 to clean everything all the time. 249 00:11:17,124 --> 00:11:20,265 -The Letts household was basically some kind 250 00:11:20,369 --> 00:11:22,889 of bizarre, punitive military camp. 251 00:11:22,992 --> 00:11:26,409 It was never really a childlike atmosphere. 252 00:11:26,513 --> 00:11:29,033 It was always an atmosphere of fear. 253 00:11:29,136 --> 00:11:33,382 -Every day, there was shouting, bawling, and smacking and -- 254 00:11:33,485 --> 00:11:35,246 He always walked around with a beret, 255 00:11:35,349 --> 00:11:36,834 in like a military sort of walk 256 00:11:36,937 --> 00:11:39,802 with his long mac thing, you know? 257 00:11:39,906 --> 00:11:41,562 And the kids used to walk a bit like that. 258 00:11:41,666 --> 00:11:43,392 He was a bit regimented with them. 259 00:11:43,495 --> 00:11:46,498 -Letts was -- and there's no other word for it -- 260 00:11:46,602 --> 00:11:47,637 a monster. 261 00:11:47,741 --> 00:11:48,949 ♪♪ 262 00:11:49,053 --> 00:11:50,675 From a very early age, 263 00:11:50,779 --> 00:11:54,403 Rose would've seen the elder children's fears. 264 00:11:54,506 --> 00:11:57,061 She had a childhood which, really, 265 00:11:57,164 --> 00:11:59,753 she retracted from the world. 266 00:11:59,857 --> 00:12:01,893 She went into a little bubble of her own, 267 00:12:01,997 --> 00:12:05,069 creating her own life, hiding in the corner, 268 00:12:05,172 --> 00:12:08,072 sitting at the back of the class in primary school, 269 00:12:08,175 --> 00:12:12,386 playing with her own dolls, removed from the world. 270 00:12:12,490 --> 00:12:15,458 -To avoid any beatings at the hand of her father, 271 00:12:15,562 --> 00:12:19,255 Rose would become reclusive and disengaged. 272 00:12:19,359 --> 00:12:21,430 -She had these very winsome ways. 273 00:12:21,533 --> 00:12:23,743 So, while he'd come home and shout 274 00:12:23,846 --> 00:12:26,504 and hit most of the other children, 275 00:12:26,607 --> 00:12:28,195 if they hadn't done their chores, 276 00:12:28,299 --> 00:12:31,371 he would let Rosie off. 277 00:12:31,474 --> 00:12:35,306 -Bill would exploit Rose's passive demeanor. 278 00:12:35,409 --> 00:12:37,239 -Bill had a hidden agenda. 279 00:12:37,342 --> 00:12:41,208 He was someone who had pedophilic tendencies. 280 00:12:41,312 --> 00:12:44,211 He was thinking that that vulnerability that Rose had 281 00:12:44,315 --> 00:12:47,042 would make her someone who could be coerced 282 00:12:47,145 --> 00:12:49,458 into sexual activity. 283 00:12:49,561 --> 00:12:54,290 -He'd actually been grooming her from quite a young age. 284 00:12:54,394 --> 00:12:56,948 Rosie was the one that was vulnerable. 285 00:12:57,052 --> 00:13:01,297 She wasthe one that wasn't really going to say anything. 286 00:13:01,401 --> 00:13:05,405 -When Bill inflicted sexual abuse on Rose, 287 00:13:05,508 --> 00:13:08,615 he was limiting her development. 288 00:13:08,718 --> 00:13:10,617 She was learning the wrong skills 289 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,240 and the wrong motivations for life. 290 00:13:13,344 --> 00:13:17,141 She was on a path that, almost certainly, would lead 291 00:13:17,244 --> 00:13:22,077 to her being part of abusive relations in the future, 292 00:13:22,180 --> 00:13:25,943 and even an instigator of abusive relations. 293 00:13:26,046 --> 00:13:27,013 [Static crackles] 294 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:32,535 ♪♪ 295 00:13:32,639 --> 00:13:33,916 -Aged 15, 296 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:35,366 years of incest abuse 297 00:13:35,469 --> 00:13:37,437 had normalized sex for Rose. 298 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:40,026 She had earnt a reputation as a nymphomaniac 299 00:13:40,129 --> 00:13:42,028 amongst the local older men. 300 00:13:42,131 --> 00:13:44,513 -Rose's engagement with Bill Letts 301 00:13:44,616 --> 00:13:46,446 at an early stage 302 00:13:46,549 --> 00:13:49,794 meant that she had a model in her head of the older man, 303 00:13:49,898 --> 00:13:51,209 which she found normal, 304 00:13:51,313 --> 00:13:53,556 which she could relate to. 305 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:54,868 -One man who had heard 306 00:13:54,972 --> 00:13:57,250 about this highly sexualized teenager 307 00:13:57,353 --> 00:14:00,391 was 29-year-old Fred West. 308 00:14:00,494 --> 00:14:02,911 -Fred lived near Rose 309 00:14:03,014 --> 00:14:05,948 and he had probably heard her name mentioned 310 00:14:06,052 --> 00:14:07,743 because I think she was getting quite infamous 311 00:14:07,847 --> 00:14:09,469 at this time locally. 312 00:14:09,572 --> 00:14:14,094 -I'm pretty sure that Fred targeted Rose quite early on. 313 00:14:14,198 --> 00:14:15,544 [Chuckling] She was voluptuous. 314 00:14:15,647 --> 00:14:18,271 She was obviously out there, in every sense. 315 00:14:18,374 --> 00:14:20,929 I think Fred knew that. 316 00:14:21,032 --> 00:14:26,244 Fred was a wily man, knew how to exploit. 317 00:14:26,348 --> 00:14:29,592 -She was at the bus station in Cheltenham 318 00:14:29,696 --> 00:14:32,492 when this chap in this mac shuffled over. 319 00:14:32,595 --> 00:14:36,323 He'd got like, she said, "Ganky green teeth." 320 00:14:36,427 --> 00:14:41,570 He was quite scruffy, but he had a good line in chat 321 00:14:41,673 --> 00:14:44,021 and she said he could charm the birds off the trees, 322 00:14:44,124 --> 00:14:48,749 so, when they were going home on the bus, he sat next to her 323 00:14:48,853 --> 00:14:50,717 and then, they discovered they had lots in common, 324 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:53,927 like they both had mothers called Daisy, 325 00:14:54,031 --> 00:14:56,792 they both lived close by, 326 00:14:56,896 --> 00:15:02,384 that they [Laughing] both had committed incest. 327 00:15:02,487 --> 00:15:06,975 When Fred started to talk about things of a sexual nature, 328 00:15:07,078 --> 00:15:11,703 to do with like bondage, S&M, all the stuff that he was into, 329 00:15:11,807 --> 00:15:15,259 then, any other girl would've run off, 330 00:15:15,362 --> 00:15:16,536 but Rose didn't. 331 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:18,365 She stayed 332 00:15:18,469 --> 00:15:22,266 because that was kind of quite a normal thing that she knew of. 333 00:15:22,369 --> 00:15:23,923 ♪♪ 334 00:15:24,026 --> 00:15:30,688 -I think Fred sensed, almost in an animalistic way, 335 00:15:30,791 --> 00:15:34,864 that, "Here's someone who could help me do what I want to do." 336 00:15:34,968 --> 00:15:37,867 -Having left his estranged wife, Rena Costello, 337 00:15:37,971 --> 00:15:42,010 Fred invited Rose to move into 25 Midland Road, 338 00:15:42,113 --> 00:15:44,046 along with his daughter, Anne Marie; 339 00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:46,152 and stepdaughter, Charmaine. 340 00:15:46,255 --> 00:15:48,948 -Rose made a leap into what was very much 341 00:15:49,051 --> 00:15:52,192 the deep end of relationships. 342 00:15:52,296 --> 00:15:56,783 So she actually did move out of the father's household, 343 00:15:56,886 --> 00:15:59,372 stepping into Fred West's life, 344 00:15:59,475 --> 00:16:04,860 looking after his two current children. 345 00:16:04,964 --> 00:16:08,312 -Just weeks after they welcomed their first child together, 346 00:16:08,415 --> 00:16:11,246 Fred was jailed for theft 347 00:16:11,349 --> 00:16:14,732 and Rose was left alone to raise the three children -- 348 00:16:14,835 --> 00:16:18,460 baby Heather, Anne Marie, and Charmaine. 349 00:16:18,563 --> 00:16:23,085 -Charmaine had always been defiant and stood up to Rose. 350 00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:25,191 -Rose felt very challenged by her 351 00:16:25,294 --> 00:16:29,091 and she couldn't cope and she would lash out. 352 00:16:29,195 --> 00:16:31,128 It was almost like, at times, 353 00:16:31,231 --> 00:16:34,510 losing touch with reality, she was so enraged, like Bill. 354 00:16:34,614 --> 00:16:37,444 And then, she would 355 00:16:37,548 --> 00:16:41,621 tie her to the bed, her legs and arms outstretched, 356 00:16:41,724 --> 00:16:45,625 and whip her, just lash her. 357 00:16:45,728 --> 00:16:49,008 It's just a nightmare. 358 00:16:49,111 --> 00:16:51,907 Charmaine absolutely refused to break down. 359 00:16:52,011 --> 00:16:55,911 She refused to cry and that irked Rose, 360 00:16:56,015 --> 00:16:58,293 that she couldn't get the better of her. 361 00:16:58,396 --> 00:17:02,538 -The fact that Fred had baggage from previous relationships 362 00:17:02,642 --> 00:17:04,644 was highly resented by Rose, 363 00:17:04,747 --> 00:17:06,646 who had a very simple view of things. 364 00:17:06,749 --> 00:17:08,682 Her vision of her and Fred 365 00:17:08,786 --> 00:17:10,546 having a wonderful life together 366 00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:15,896 did not include previous relationship children. 367 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,830 -And, when Charmaine would not abide by the rules, 368 00:17:18,934 --> 00:17:21,419 Rose killed her. 369 00:17:21,523 --> 00:17:24,250 -I think Rose, 370 00:17:24,353 --> 00:17:29,255 with the stress and luggage that she was carrying 371 00:17:29,358 --> 00:17:31,429 and the anger that she had within her, 372 00:17:31,533 --> 00:17:34,639 she was capable of killing Charmaine. 373 00:17:34,743 --> 00:17:39,127 She applied the same kind of draconian regime 374 00:17:39,230 --> 00:17:40,645 that she'd witnessed with Bill Letts 375 00:17:40,749 --> 00:17:42,371 in her own house. 376 00:17:42,475 --> 00:17:45,374 I'm not saying that she would've planned to murder her, 377 00:17:45,478 --> 00:17:48,998 but she might have just beaten the living daylights out of her. 378 00:17:49,102 --> 00:17:50,379 -It is believed that Rose 379 00:17:50,483 --> 00:17:53,106 hid Charmaine's body in the coal cellar 380 00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:56,247 and that Fred buried the body beneath the kitchen floor 381 00:17:56,351 --> 00:17:59,630 when he was released from jail. 382 00:17:59,733 --> 00:18:01,770 -Charmaine's mother, Rena, 383 00:18:01,873 --> 00:18:06,637 came around, seeking out where Charmaine had gone. 384 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:08,535 Rena was becoming a problem 385 00:18:08,639 --> 00:18:12,367 and, in Fred's mind, she had to go. 386 00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:15,887 -After strangling Rena, Fred buried her dismembered body 387 00:18:15,991 --> 00:18:18,304 in a field near his childhood home. 388 00:18:18,407 --> 00:18:22,066 But this was not the first time Fred had committed murder. 389 00:18:22,170 --> 00:18:25,932 -He has then told Rose about Anna McFall 390 00:18:26,035 --> 00:18:28,314 and the child that Anna was having 391 00:18:28,417 --> 00:18:29,660 and where they're buried. 392 00:18:29,763 --> 00:18:32,041 -Three years before meeting Rose, 393 00:18:32,145 --> 00:18:34,492 Fred murdered his 18-year-old mistress 394 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:38,531 and their unborn child to avoid his wife Rena finding out. 395 00:18:38,634 --> 00:18:43,087 -So, now, they have this bond between them. 396 00:18:43,191 --> 00:18:45,745 They've got a hold over each other 397 00:18:45,848 --> 00:18:50,612 and that won't break until many, many years and murders later. 398 00:18:50,715 --> 00:18:52,269 ♪♪ 399 00:18:52,372 --> 00:18:53,442 [Static crackles] 400 00:18:53,546 --> 00:18:55,686 ♪♪ 401 00:18:55,789 --> 00:18:57,998 Fred West had a dysfunctional upbringing 402 00:18:58,102 --> 00:19:00,656 by his parents, Walter and Daisy, 403 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,142 in a remote part of the countryside, 404 00:19:03,245 --> 00:19:06,075 15 miles outside of Gloucester. 405 00:19:06,179 --> 00:19:09,148 I was the authorized biographer of Frederick West, 406 00:19:09,251 --> 00:19:11,080 given his papers by the officials listed 407 00:19:11,184 --> 00:19:12,634 at the supreme court. 408 00:19:12,737 --> 00:19:15,326 The first time I ever heard Frederick West's voice 409 00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:16,914 was when I listened to the first tape, 410 00:19:17,017 --> 00:19:20,780 describing, in a little singsong Herefordshire accent, 411 00:19:20,883 --> 00:19:21,953 what had been happening. 412 00:19:22,057 --> 00:19:23,783 ♪♪ 413 00:19:23,886 --> 00:19:26,268 Important point to remember about Fred's childhood 414 00:19:26,372 --> 00:19:29,823 was that he came from an extraordinarily 415 00:19:29,927 --> 00:19:32,688 incestuous household. 416 00:19:32,792 --> 00:19:36,175 Fred himself talked about it in his police interviews. 417 00:19:36,278 --> 00:19:41,076 Daisy took Fred to bed and initiated him into sex 418 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:43,009 at a very early age. 419 00:19:43,112 --> 00:19:47,324 Fred told the authorities his father had had sex with animals 420 00:19:47,427 --> 00:19:48,773 and there's no question his father 421 00:19:48,877 --> 00:19:51,362 persuaded Fred to have sex with animals, 422 00:19:51,466 --> 00:19:53,916 particularly, sheep. 423 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:55,194 It wasn't even surprising. 424 00:19:55,297 --> 00:19:56,747 [Baa] 425 00:19:56,850 --> 00:19:58,818 Fred also witnessed his father 426 00:19:58,921 --> 00:20:00,613 having sex with young girls, 427 00:20:00,716 --> 00:20:04,720 but he was also well aware that his father wouldn't hesitate 428 00:20:04,824 --> 00:20:09,691 to hurt a young girl that didn't do what he wanted. 429 00:20:09,794 --> 00:20:14,730 They lived in a world which was remote from convention. 430 00:20:14,834 --> 00:20:16,318 They did what they wanted 431 00:20:16,422 --> 00:20:18,976 and this was Walter West's universe. 432 00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:20,736 He commanded it. 433 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,532 What Daisy did -- "If you want to kill a pig, 434 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:24,602 we'll hang it up in the kitchen. 435 00:20:24,706 --> 00:20:26,604 It'll bleed onto the floor." 436 00:20:26,708 --> 00:20:31,057 This was not anything like a suburban upbringing. 437 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,680 It was completely opposite of that. 438 00:20:33,784 --> 00:20:36,580 Fred then took those habits and translated them 439 00:20:36,683 --> 00:20:40,342 into an urban environment, Gloucester itself. 440 00:20:40,446 --> 00:20:44,312 He was still, really, a farm laborer at heart. 441 00:20:44,415 --> 00:20:48,730 Everybody I ever talked to about Fred West 442 00:20:48,833 --> 00:20:51,422 said the same thing -- "You'd never have believed it." 443 00:20:51,526 --> 00:20:54,529 He was just -- well, he was just commonplace. 444 00:20:54,632 --> 00:20:56,979 He was a little commonplace little man. 445 00:20:57,083 --> 00:21:00,983 But one person who always knew exactly what Fred was like 446 00:21:01,087 --> 00:21:02,157 was Rose. 447 00:21:02,261 --> 00:21:03,607 Rose knew from the very beginning 448 00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:05,747 and she also knew how to press his buttons. 449 00:21:05,850 --> 00:21:10,821 ♪♪ 450 00:21:10,924 --> 00:21:14,411 -As soon as Rose turned 18, they got married. 451 00:21:14,514 --> 00:21:16,551 After the birth of their second child, 452 00:21:16,654 --> 00:21:18,725 they bought their first home and moved 453 00:21:18,829 --> 00:21:21,245 into 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester, 454 00:21:21,349 --> 00:21:24,490 along with daughters Heather and Anne Marie. 455 00:21:24,593 --> 00:21:26,008 -Owning their own home, 456 00:21:26,112 --> 00:21:27,769 particularly Rose, at such a young age, 457 00:21:27,872 --> 00:21:29,564 was a huge thing for her 458 00:21:29,667 --> 00:21:30,979 and, of course, she was really pleased 459 00:21:31,082 --> 00:21:33,947 to be moving into 25 Cromwell Street. 460 00:21:34,051 --> 00:21:37,537 -I mean, Rose, finally, at 25 Cromwell Street, 461 00:21:37,641 --> 00:21:41,714 gets her own domain and she treats it as her domain 462 00:21:41,817 --> 00:21:43,647 and she rules it with a rod of iron. 463 00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:46,097 She rules her own children even more fiercely 464 00:21:46,201 --> 00:21:49,618 than Bill intimidated her as a child. 465 00:21:49,722 --> 00:21:52,794 ♪♪ 466 00:21:52,897 --> 00:21:55,969 -To help pay the way with the mortgage, 467 00:21:56,073 --> 00:21:58,386 the upstairs were turned into bedsits 468 00:21:58,489 --> 00:22:02,321 and they would let them to young sort of transient people. 469 00:22:02,424 --> 00:22:06,601 ♪♪ 470 00:22:06,704 --> 00:22:09,017 -I was actually a resident at 25 Cromwell Street, 471 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,985 with Rosemary and Fred being my landlord and landlady. 472 00:22:12,089 --> 00:22:15,057 I wasn't working while I was living there, or studying. 473 00:22:15,161 --> 00:22:17,508 I'd just walked out of home when I was 16. 474 00:22:17,612 --> 00:22:20,062 I was just a runaway. [Laughs] 475 00:22:20,166 --> 00:22:21,685 I attended St James Junior School 476 00:22:21,788 --> 00:22:23,480 with Anne Marie in the year below, 477 00:22:23,583 --> 00:22:25,274 so I knew them quite well. 478 00:22:25,378 --> 00:22:28,588 I'd seen Rose previously picking Anne Marie up. 479 00:22:28,692 --> 00:22:32,040 I never really kind of put two and two together 480 00:22:32,143 --> 00:22:33,697 as Rose West being her stepmother 481 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,113 because she didn't really look much different 482 00:22:36,216 --> 00:22:38,149 in the way that she dressed. 483 00:22:38,253 --> 00:22:42,637 Schoolgirl-type sort of clothes with skirts and trainers. 484 00:22:42,740 --> 00:22:44,432 Not what you would expect for somebody that's a mother, 485 00:22:44,535 --> 00:22:46,572 more somebody that was just going on to high school. 486 00:22:46,675 --> 00:22:47,987 ♪♪ 487 00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:50,299 I bumped into Anne Marie in town 488 00:22:50,403 --> 00:22:54,062 and Anne Marie was talking to me about her parents had a room. 489 00:22:54,165 --> 00:22:56,409 So I went to the café to meet them 490 00:22:56,513 --> 00:22:58,894 and there was Fred and Rose. 491 00:22:58,998 --> 00:23:00,655 Rose was a very forward person. 492 00:23:00,758 --> 00:23:02,726 She said it as it was and she seemed 493 00:23:02,829 --> 00:23:05,176 to be the dominant person in the relationship. 494 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,526 Fred wasn't passive, but Fred was quiet, compared to Rose. 495 00:23:09,629 --> 00:23:11,148 He was just sort of like saying, you know, 496 00:23:11,251 --> 00:23:12,943 "It's your choice, if you want to come and have a look," 497 00:23:13,046 --> 00:23:15,394 whereas Rose was, "This is the rules and regulations," 498 00:23:15,497 --> 00:23:18,293 so there was a lot of difference between the two of them. 499 00:23:18,397 --> 00:23:22,297 From what I can remember, I moved in about a week later. 500 00:23:22,401 --> 00:23:24,264 I'd never lived away from home before, so, to me, 501 00:23:24,368 --> 00:23:28,752 it was a room that I could rent and be my own person. 502 00:23:28,855 --> 00:23:30,409 It was a very clean house. 503 00:23:30,512 --> 00:23:31,686 It always smelt fresh. 504 00:23:31,789 --> 00:23:33,342 It smelt of bleach most of the time 505 00:23:33,446 --> 00:23:35,379 and everywhere I went, it was very clean. 506 00:23:35,483 --> 00:23:37,726 ♪♪ 507 00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:39,521 -Jayne soon began to realize 508 00:23:39,625 --> 00:23:42,351 that Fred and Rose were no ordinary couple. 509 00:23:42,455 --> 00:23:44,630 ♪♪ 510 00:23:44,733 --> 00:23:46,217 The doorbell went, but, 511 00:23:46,321 --> 00:23:49,635 it lit up a red light above the living room door. 512 00:23:49,738 --> 00:23:52,396 And I [Laughs] jokingly said, 513 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:54,018 "Oh, is this the red light district?" 514 00:23:54,122 --> 00:23:56,193 And then Fred come walking in from the other side 515 00:23:56,296 --> 00:23:59,023 and went through. 516 00:23:59,127 --> 00:24:01,785 That's how I found out that she was having other men in. 517 00:24:01,888 --> 00:24:05,098 ♪♪ 518 00:24:05,202 --> 00:24:08,964 -Rose used her insatiable appetite for sex to make money, 519 00:24:09,068 --> 00:24:11,933 working as a prostitute out of the family home, 520 00:24:12,036 --> 00:24:13,900 something which Fred encouraged. 521 00:24:14,004 --> 00:24:16,593 -This was somewhere where they had space, 522 00:24:16,696 --> 00:24:18,457 where they could invest, if you like, 523 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,013 in their bizarre activities, for sex to become 524 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:27,086 something that Rose could indulge in endlessly. 525 00:24:27,189 --> 00:24:29,606 -I -- 526 00:24:29,709 --> 00:24:32,263 I kind of was a bit confused over it. 527 00:24:32,367 --> 00:24:34,058 Again, I was only 16 and naive, 528 00:24:34,162 --> 00:24:38,131 so why does a woman want other men in? 529 00:24:38,235 --> 00:24:39,961 Maybe if that's how they fulfill their relationship, 530 00:24:40,064 --> 00:24:41,065 that's their choice. 531 00:24:41,169 --> 00:24:44,517 ♪♪ 532 00:24:44,621 --> 00:24:47,416 -It gave them the chance, as it were, 533 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,076 to partition their lives, to be able to control elements, 534 00:24:52,180 --> 00:24:55,873 for Fred to engage in voyeuristic activity 535 00:24:55,977 --> 00:24:57,944 with Rose's sex activity. 536 00:24:58,048 --> 00:25:00,982 -Yes, she was charging money, but this was more 537 00:25:01,085 --> 00:25:05,711 about Fred watching and peering through spy holes 538 00:25:05,814 --> 00:25:09,956 that he made in all the doors and walls. 539 00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:13,132 He had an intercom system built, as well, 540 00:25:13,235 --> 00:25:15,928 so, wherever he was, he could listen. 541 00:25:16,031 --> 00:25:17,550 -He loved watching Rose, 542 00:25:17,654 --> 00:25:19,552 particularly, performing sexually. 543 00:25:19,656 --> 00:25:22,037 He would record it as well. 544 00:25:22,141 --> 00:25:23,832 He was an archetypal voyeur. 545 00:25:23,936 --> 00:25:28,043 He took great pleasure in having sex with Rose 546 00:25:28,147 --> 00:25:29,942 after she'd had sex with somebody else. 547 00:25:30,045 --> 00:25:32,807 That was one of the things that really turned Fred on. 548 00:25:32,910 --> 00:25:34,291 ♪♪ 549 00:25:34,394 --> 00:25:36,017 -Sometimes he would coat himself 550 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,433 in the sperm of her clients, 551 00:25:38,537 --> 00:25:41,470 that he'd take from condoms, 552 00:25:41,574 --> 00:25:46,061 so he felt he was breeding something like a master race. 553 00:25:46,165 --> 00:25:48,063 It was just crazy stuff 554 00:25:48,167 --> 00:25:50,756 and Rose went along with those delusions, 555 00:25:50,859 --> 00:25:54,622 so they really were caught up in a folie à deux. 556 00:25:54,725 --> 00:25:57,625 -I'm one of the few people who actually saw the videotapes 557 00:25:57,728 --> 00:25:59,834 that Fred made of Rose 558 00:25:59,937 --> 00:26:03,838 doing various extraordinary sexual things. 559 00:26:03,941 --> 00:26:05,598 Absolutely revolting. 560 00:26:05,702 --> 00:26:08,118 She was actually performing for Fred, 561 00:26:08,221 --> 00:26:10,845 inserting things into herself, 562 00:26:10,948 --> 00:26:14,124 showing the knickers that she'd brought back and used 563 00:26:14,227 --> 00:26:16,609 and kept in jars on the mantelpiece in her room. 564 00:26:16,713 --> 00:26:21,096 She was showing how enthusiastic she was. 565 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,272 And Fred very seldom appeared himself. 566 00:26:24,375 --> 00:26:26,170 He occasionally would pop his head round, 567 00:26:26,274 --> 00:26:28,034 but he was always behind the camera 568 00:26:28,138 --> 00:26:29,898 and Rose was always in front of it. 569 00:26:30,002 --> 00:26:31,624 And that played out 570 00:26:31,728 --> 00:26:33,177 throughout their entire marriage. 571 00:26:33,281 --> 00:26:34,454 I've used the phrase before 572 00:26:34,558 --> 00:26:36,215 and I mean it, still, to this day -- 573 00:26:36,318 --> 00:26:38,942 she was, in every sense, the sorcerer's apprentice. 574 00:26:39,045 --> 00:26:40,909 ♪♪ 575 00:26:41,013 --> 00:26:43,084 -The Wests were pushing boundaries, 576 00:26:43,187 --> 00:26:46,397 experimenting with fetishes. 577 00:26:46,501 --> 00:26:50,332 She liked -- It's no secret. 578 00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,370 Fred himself talked about it in his police interviews, 579 00:26:53,473 --> 00:26:56,373 that Rose liked rough sex. 580 00:26:56,476 --> 00:26:58,099 She liked hard. 581 00:26:58,202 --> 00:26:59,618 She didn't like any chatting up. 582 00:26:59,721 --> 00:27:02,621 She liked fierceness. 583 00:27:02,724 --> 00:27:04,036 ♪♪ 584 00:27:04,139 --> 00:27:06,452 -But Rose wanted more, and would turn 585 00:27:06,555 --> 00:27:09,248 to the increasingly popular classified adverts 586 00:27:09,351 --> 00:27:11,319 to appease her sexual desires. 587 00:27:11,422 --> 00:27:13,632 ♪♪ 588 00:27:13,735 --> 00:27:17,843 -Here you have the development of strong paraphilias -- 589 00:27:17,946 --> 00:27:21,812 Rose becoming exhibitionist and Fred becoming a voyeur 590 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:24,919 and getting visions of pornographic films 591 00:27:25,022 --> 00:27:26,955 and other kind of things. 592 00:27:27,059 --> 00:27:30,856 He was full of ideas, that were often macabre. 593 00:27:30,959 --> 00:27:33,548 ♪♪ 594 00:27:33,652 --> 00:27:37,414 -So, what you'd got was this extraordinary conjunction 595 00:27:37,517 --> 00:27:39,830 Of a highly sexualized young woman 596 00:27:39,934 --> 00:27:41,625 and a very manipulative man. 597 00:27:41,729 --> 00:27:43,006 ♪♪ 598 00:27:43,109 --> 00:27:46,768 Okay, so does she marry her father? 599 00:27:46,872 --> 00:27:48,874 Is West really Bill Letts? 600 00:27:48,977 --> 00:27:51,152 It's possible. There's an element of it. 601 00:27:51,255 --> 00:27:52,256 Not complete, of course. 602 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:53,810 It's too glib. 603 00:27:53,913 --> 00:27:55,259 But there is an element there. 604 00:27:55,363 --> 00:27:58,642 There's an element of Fred targeting Rose 605 00:27:58,746 --> 00:28:00,955 and then, Rose targeting Fred. 606 00:28:01,058 --> 00:28:06,546 ♪♪ 607 00:28:06,650 --> 00:28:08,341 -Outside of Cromwell Street, 608 00:28:08,445 --> 00:28:11,206 Rose was keen to portray a normal life, 609 00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:15,210 although her obsession with sex was known amongst the locals. 610 00:28:15,314 --> 00:28:17,799 -Rose West was known as, you know, basically, a slut, 611 00:28:17,903 --> 00:28:19,076 but she liked her men. 612 00:28:19,180 --> 00:28:20,906 She was known for, you know, flashing 613 00:28:21,009 --> 00:28:24,047 or trying to show herself off and things like that, yeah. 614 00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:27,602 She'd always like to touch you or she could be quite, you know. 615 00:28:27,706 --> 00:28:30,053 She liked to let you know she liked you. 616 00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:31,917 I didn't feel comfortable around her. 617 00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:33,919 I couldn't wait to get away from her. 618 00:28:34,022 --> 00:28:35,783 You just knew there was something a bit 619 00:28:35,886 --> 00:28:38,544 seedy about her, you know? 620 00:28:38,647 --> 00:28:42,375 My mum and dad used to run the St Peters Social Club 621 00:28:42,479 --> 00:28:43,963 and, of course, Fred and Rose West 622 00:28:44,067 --> 00:28:45,206 used to go there. 623 00:28:45,309 --> 00:28:46,828 Rose used to turn up to the events 624 00:28:46,932 --> 00:28:49,037 like, you know, with the cowboy hat, the guns, 625 00:28:49,141 --> 00:28:53,007 and everything was so hypo, you know, around her table. 626 00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:54,111 She had a temper on her. 627 00:28:54,215 --> 00:28:55,699 Even in the club, 628 00:28:55,803 --> 00:28:58,357 she'd shout at the kids and tell them to sit down. 629 00:28:58,460 --> 00:29:00,911 She was, you know, like a sergeant major with them, you know? 630 00:29:01,015 --> 00:29:02,464 Sometimes it could be uncomfortable 631 00:29:02,568 --> 00:29:04,466 seeing her snap and shout at the kids, 632 00:29:04,570 --> 00:29:06,089 but, you know, they knew their place. 633 00:29:06,192 --> 00:29:09,195 When she said something, they knew and they sat there, 634 00:29:09,299 --> 00:29:11,335 you know, and they toed the line. 635 00:29:11,439 --> 00:29:12,992 ♪♪ 636 00:29:13,096 --> 00:29:14,891 When Rose hit the dance floor, you know, 637 00:29:14,994 --> 00:29:18,618 she was like flirty-dancing, you know, sexy-dancing. 638 00:29:18,722 --> 00:29:20,310 Fred was always shy. 639 00:29:20,413 --> 00:29:21,587 He'd smile. 640 00:29:21,690 --> 00:29:23,658 Rose would always keep an eye on Fred -- 641 00:29:23,762 --> 00:29:25,902 where he was going, who he was talking to -- 642 00:29:26,005 --> 00:29:29,733 and she always watched him and she was the boss. 643 00:29:29,837 --> 00:29:32,943 She was probably trying to be someone she wasn't 644 00:29:33,047 --> 00:29:34,876 when she was on the dance floor. 645 00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:37,051 You know, that was her de-stressor kind of thing, 646 00:29:37,154 --> 00:29:38,500 trying to convince herself 647 00:29:38,604 --> 00:29:41,124 she was a normal person, I suppose, you know? 648 00:29:41,227 --> 00:29:42,608 -But this new confidence, 649 00:29:42,711 --> 00:29:45,507 both inside and outside of Cromwell Street, 650 00:29:45,611 --> 00:29:47,613 was a far cry from Rose as a child 651 00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:49,304 [Static crackles] ...who struggled, 652 00:29:49,408 --> 00:29:51,962 socially and academically. 653 00:29:52,066 --> 00:29:55,241 -When Rose started school, her sort of inabilities 654 00:29:55,345 --> 00:29:57,726 with language, understanding; 655 00:29:57,830 --> 00:30:00,488 thumb-sucking -- a lot of the stereotypies -- 656 00:30:00,591 --> 00:30:02,662 became more obvious, 657 00:30:02,766 --> 00:30:05,044 contrasted with all the other children. 658 00:30:05,148 --> 00:30:08,807 -There's no doubt that Rose was not a particularly bright child. 659 00:30:08,910 --> 00:30:13,881 She was slow to pick up the obvious things -- 660 00:30:13,984 --> 00:30:16,538 reading, writing, and arithmetic. 661 00:30:16,642 --> 00:30:20,370 -In these very early days, the way of treating children 662 00:30:20,473 --> 00:30:23,235 who were not showing signs of good development was 663 00:30:23,338 --> 00:30:24,926 to place them in the corner, 664 00:30:25,030 --> 00:30:27,066 place a dunce's cap on their head, 665 00:30:27,170 --> 00:30:30,829 make them face the wall, basically, to single them out 666 00:30:30,932 --> 00:30:33,038 and say, "Don't do that. 667 00:30:33,141 --> 00:30:34,660 Improve. Look, 668 00:30:34,763 --> 00:30:36,800 you're going to be outside of society, 669 00:30:36,904 --> 00:30:38,526 if you don't." 670 00:30:38,629 --> 00:30:40,493 The fact that the British education system 671 00:30:40,597 --> 00:30:43,462 actually adopted a dunce's cap -- 672 00:30:43,565 --> 00:30:46,051 this pointed cone that you placed on the head 673 00:30:46,154 --> 00:30:48,639 as the child was isolated and faced the wall -- 674 00:30:48,743 --> 00:30:51,850 was a bizarre, primitive practice. 675 00:30:51,953 --> 00:30:55,715 This was kind of hand-me-down from bizarre religious beliefs 676 00:30:55,819 --> 00:30:57,510 that, somehow or other, the dunce's cap 677 00:30:57,614 --> 00:31:00,997 was a conduit for God's intelligence. 678 00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:03,654 Complete nonsense and the effect on children 679 00:31:03,758 --> 00:31:05,725 was like secondary labeling. 680 00:31:05,829 --> 00:31:09,833 You know, you were being labeled as being stupid, 681 00:31:09,937 --> 00:31:11,800 but then, you could take on that label 682 00:31:11,904 --> 00:31:15,494 and just start acting stupid with full license 683 00:31:15,597 --> 00:31:17,289 because that's the role they've given you. 684 00:31:17,392 --> 00:31:18,911 ♪♪ 685 00:31:19,015 --> 00:31:22,259 -At school, Rose reverted back to what she knew -- 686 00:31:22,363 --> 00:31:24,675 being a self-absorbed recluse. 687 00:31:24,779 --> 00:31:27,161 -That was her way of surviving 688 00:31:27,264 --> 00:31:29,818 an environment that she didn't understand. 689 00:31:29,922 --> 00:31:32,614 She was never allowed to play, in the conventional sense, 690 00:31:32,718 --> 00:31:33,926 with other children, 691 00:31:34,030 --> 00:31:36,825 except in a school form environment. 692 00:31:36,929 --> 00:31:40,450 The only socialization she got was within the house. 693 00:31:40,553 --> 00:31:42,210 ♪♪ 694 00:31:42,314 --> 00:31:45,662 -Rose struggled academically and was held back a year, 695 00:31:45,765 --> 00:31:49,252 where she gained confidence being the eldest child in class. 696 00:31:49,355 --> 00:31:52,911 Both her parents now had jobs, meaning Rose was often left 697 00:31:53,014 --> 00:31:55,396 in charge of her younger brothers. 698 00:31:55,499 --> 00:31:58,054 -She had always taken a great interest in dolls 699 00:31:58,157 --> 00:32:00,780 and then, treats her two younger brothers 700 00:32:00,884 --> 00:32:02,575 as the equivalent of dolls. 701 00:32:02,679 --> 00:32:03,749 She would bathe them. 702 00:32:03,852 --> 00:32:04,784 She would put them to bed. 703 00:32:04,888 --> 00:32:06,855 She would dress them. 704 00:32:06,959 --> 00:32:12,551 Those two younger brothers were Rose's...playthings. 705 00:32:12,654 --> 00:32:14,829 ♪♪ 706 00:32:14,933 --> 00:32:16,313 -As Rose matured, 707 00:32:16,417 --> 00:32:20,248 she learnt to use violence to protect her brothers. 708 00:32:20,352 --> 00:32:22,699 -Rose began to identify with Bill 709 00:32:22,802 --> 00:32:24,701 and think of herself being someone 710 00:32:24,804 --> 00:32:27,359 who was strong and could create fear in others 711 00:32:27,462 --> 00:32:29,085 and this actually led 712 00:32:29,188 --> 00:32:33,779 to Rose going out and bullying other children. 713 00:32:33,882 --> 00:32:37,921 -Rose reached puberty before other kids in her class 714 00:32:38,025 --> 00:32:41,545 and, from being a meek, timid girl who was bullied, 715 00:32:41,649 --> 00:32:45,308 she became this big, strong girl who could 716 00:32:45,411 --> 00:32:47,034 knock people about, and she did, 717 00:32:47,137 --> 00:32:49,484 because she would protect her younger brothers, 718 00:32:49,588 --> 00:32:53,143 who were, you know, skinny little chaps. 719 00:32:53,247 --> 00:32:54,593 -When her brothers were attacked, 720 00:32:54,696 --> 00:32:56,215 Rose would go after them. 721 00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:59,253 Suddenly, the bullied turns round and bullies back. 722 00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:02,394 She was not going to have her brothers hurt 723 00:33:02,497 --> 00:33:05,535 and she would lump them, as they called it. 724 00:33:05,638 --> 00:33:08,814 -So you've got this interesting dichotomy 725 00:33:08,917 --> 00:33:11,782 between sexuality at one point; 726 00:33:11,886 --> 00:33:16,477 and violence, bullying, at another. 727 00:33:16,580 --> 00:33:18,444 -Rose would've felt powerful from that. 728 00:33:18,548 --> 00:33:20,377 She would've felt in control herself, 729 00:33:20,481 --> 00:33:22,897 where she'd always felt out of control. 730 00:33:23,001 --> 00:33:24,554 So, now, she has power. 731 00:33:24,657 --> 00:33:25,865 Now, she's enjoying that. 732 00:33:25,969 --> 00:33:27,764 Now, she's going to go out and do this. 733 00:33:27,867 --> 00:33:30,284 So this makes quite a dangerous stage 734 00:33:30,387 --> 00:33:32,251 for the next part of the journey, 735 00:33:32,355 --> 00:33:34,184 where she meets Fred West. 736 00:33:34,288 --> 00:33:37,808 ♪♪ 737 00:33:37,912 --> 00:33:41,398 -Rose gained confidence through sex and violence, 738 00:33:41,502 --> 00:33:44,815 passions amplified by her relationship with Fred, 739 00:33:44,919 --> 00:33:45,989 so they wanted somewhere 740 00:33:46,093 --> 00:33:48,854 to combine both of these desires. 741 00:33:48,957 --> 00:33:52,444 -This is where Fred goes on to extend the house 742 00:33:52,547 --> 00:33:56,689 and to develop the basement. 743 00:33:56,793 --> 00:33:59,451 -Fred was very proud of his cellar. 744 00:33:59,554 --> 00:34:03,041 I can remember, one day, going through to peg the washing out 745 00:34:03,144 --> 00:34:05,733 and Fred was out in the back garden, 746 00:34:05,836 --> 00:34:07,286 fiddling about, doing something. 747 00:34:07,390 --> 00:34:08,874 I can't recall what it was. 748 00:34:08,977 --> 00:34:10,738 He said, "Oh, I've repainted the cellar downstairs. 749 00:34:10,841 --> 00:34:11,739 Do you want to have a look?" 750 00:34:11,842 --> 00:34:13,706 I said, "What's a cellar?" 751 00:34:13,810 --> 00:34:15,984 He said, "It's where the children go to play." 752 00:34:16,088 --> 00:34:17,400 I said, "Okay." 753 00:34:17,503 --> 00:34:19,643 And I'm claustrophobic, 754 00:34:19,747 --> 00:34:22,232 but I thought, "Well, don't be rude." [Laughs] 755 00:34:22,336 --> 00:34:23,820 And he took me down into the cellar, 756 00:34:23,923 --> 00:34:28,031 which was a horrible, dark, dank place. 757 00:34:28,135 --> 00:34:30,413 [Static crackles] ♪♪ 758 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:32,725 -In the lower basement area, 759 00:34:32,829 --> 00:34:35,556 he decided he was going to have a torture chamber. 760 00:34:35,659 --> 00:34:39,560 [Static crackling] ♪♪ 761 00:34:39,663 --> 00:34:43,391 They both shared this sadistic view 762 00:34:43,495 --> 00:34:50,191 of subjecting human beings to horrific circumstances. 763 00:34:50,295 --> 00:34:51,917 [Static crackles] ♪♪ 764 00:34:52,020 --> 00:34:56,335 Fred was becoming a creative psychopath. 765 00:34:56,439 --> 00:35:00,374 His obsession on all things gynecological 766 00:35:00,477 --> 00:35:06,276 was drawing him into some very, very sadistic and bizarre ideas. 767 00:35:06,380 --> 00:35:10,315 ♪♪ 768 00:35:10,418 --> 00:35:11,971 [Dog barks in distance] 769 00:35:12,075 --> 00:35:15,561 -Despite Rose being married and owning her own home, 770 00:35:15,665 --> 00:35:19,117 her father Bill was still firmly rooted in her life. 771 00:35:19,220 --> 00:35:20,808 -There was still a sexual relationship 772 00:35:20,911 --> 00:35:22,223 between Rose and her father, Bill. 773 00:35:22,327 --> 00:35:24,950 At one point, he was living in a caravan 774 00:35:25,053 --> 00:35:26,814 at the bottom of Cromwell Street. 775 00:35:26,917 --> 00:35:29,437 ♪♪ 776 00:35:29,541 --> 00:35:33,131 -I found Bill a bit 777 00:35:33,234 --> 00:35:36,410 scary, I think, is the easiest way of describing him. 778 00:35:36,513 --> 00:35:39,689 He kind of like was looking through me and -- 779 00:35:39,792 --> 00:35:40,862 How do you explain it? 780 00:35:40,966 --> 00:35:43,071 Like sizing me up and -- 781 00:35:43,175 --> 00:35:45,004 All I know is he sat with his hand under the table, 782 00:35:45,108 --> 00:35:49,285 which kind of made me feel a bit at unease. 783 00:35:49,388 --> 00:35:52,011 He was very sort of concentrating on me. 784 00:35:52,115 --> 00:35:54,566 He did have a look in his eyes that wasn't very nice. 785 00:35:54,669 --> 00:35:55,946 [Laughs] 786 00:35:56,050 --> 00:35:57,327 I wouldn't like to guess, to be fair, 787 00:35:57,431 --> 00:35:58,846 what Bill was doing under that table. 788 00:35:58,949 --> 00:36:00,399 ♪♪ 789 00:36:00,503 --> 00:36:04,438 -I think Rose was always fascinated by her father. 790 00:36:04,541 --> 00:36:05,922 They couldn't stay apart. 791 00:36:06,025 --> 00:36:09,995 They were, in a sense, inextricably linked 792 00:36:10,098 --> 00:36:11,893 and you couldn't break that. 793 00:36:11,997 --> 00:36:13,723 -I mean, I've always found it quite extraordinary, 794 00:36:13,826 --> 00:36:19,177 how Rose continued to have sex with her father into adulthood. 795 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,662 Whether she got any sexual satisfaction from it, 796 00:36:21,765 --> 00:36:23,111 I don't know. 797 00:36:23,215 --> 00:36:25,804 And you just get into this revolting quagmire 798 00:36:25,907 --> 00:36:29,911 of abuse through the generations, you know. 799 00:36:30,015 --> 00:36:32,983 That sense, of a father's right 800 00:36:33,087 --> 00:36:35,331 to have sex with his own children 801 00:36:35,434 --> 00:36:38,472 is a thread that runs through the story 802 00:36:38,575 --> 00:36:42,545 of Rosemary Letts, as she was; and Frederick West. 803 00:36:42,648 --> 00:36:46,238 ♪♪ 804 00:36:46,342 --> 00:36:49,207 -Bill remained ever present in Rose's life 805 00:36:49,310 --> 00:36:51,278 and, with Fred's blessing, he continued 806 00:36:51,381 --> 00:36:54,073 his sexual relationship with his daughter. 807 00:36:54,177 --> 00:36:56,455 But what was it about Bill's upbringing 808 00:36:56,559 --> 00:37:00,079 that made him become a violent and incestuous father? 809 00:37:00,183 --> 00:37:02,220 -Young Bill Letts was an only child. 810 00:37:02,323 --> 00:37:04,187 His mother was a local district nurse. 811 00:37:04,291 --> 00:37:07,742 She was very revered in the community. 812 00:37:07,846 --> 00:37:09,157 His father came back 813 00:37:09,261 --> 00:37:11,332 from fighting in the First World War. 814 00:37:11,436 --> 00:37:13,058 When Bill came along, 815 00:37:13,161 --> 00:37:16,441 his father was not particularly happy about it. 816 00:37:16,544 --> 00:37:18,270 His father didn't want him 817 00:37:18,374 --> 00:37:20,445 and told him that he wasn't wanted, 818 00:37:20,548 --> 00:37:22,240 that he was a mistake, 819 00:37:22,343 --> 00:37:25,657 which was an awful thing to say to a young boy. 820 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,452 -Bill Letts' mother, Bertha, 821 00:37:27,555 --> 00:37:31,076 overcompensated for the neglect by his father, William, 822 00:37:31,179 --> 00:37:34,528 so Bill was mollycoddled to the extreme. 823 00:37:34,631 --> 00:37:36,564 -My mum went to school with Bill Letts. 824 00:37:36,668 --> 00:37:38,428 His mother used to bring him to school, 825 00:37:38,532 --> 00:37:40,465 be there to meet him, take him home. 826 00:37:40,568 --> 00:37:43,468 -His mother would always accompany him to school 827 00:37:43,571 --> 00:37:47,437 and brush his hair as soon as she took his cap off. 828 00:37:47,541 --> 00:37:50,233 -I mean, he must've been about 11, 829 00:37:50,337 --> 00:37:53,823 not, like, a little three-, four-year-old, you know? 830 00:37:53,926 --> 00:37:57,275 -Because of Bertha's mollycoddling of her son, 831 00:37:57,378 --> 00:38:00,830 he really had very few, if any, friends at all, 832 00:38:00,933 --> 00:38:03,142 so he was very isolated. 833 00:38:03,246 --> 00:38:07,354 We see aspects of that again in Rose's childhood. 834 00:38:07,457 --> 00:38:11,289 -He was another one that he wasn't allowed out, either. 835 00:38:11,392 --> 00:38:14,740 And he was very quiet at school, as well, 836 00:38:14,844 --> 00:38:16,673 much like his own children were. 837 00:38:16,777 --> 00:38:19,711 -I think it's a perfectly fair assumption to say 838 00:38:19,814 --> 00:38:25,303 that Bill Letts, as a child, was intimidated a good deal 839 00:38:25,406 --> 00:38:27,201 and I think he responded to that intimidation -- 840 00:38:27,305 --> 00:38:28,616 bullying, if you like -- 841 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:30,825 by responding with equal violence himself, 842 00:38:30,929 --> 00:38:32,137 as soon as he became an adult. 843 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:35,692 -There were strong rumors in the community. 844 00:38:35,796 --> 00:38:37,349 Parents told their children to keep away 845 00:38:37,453 --> 00:38:39,178 from old William Letts 846 00:38:39,282 --> 00:38:42,492 because he couldn't be trusted near children. 847 00:38:42,596 --> 00:38:46,841 So, whether Bill was abused or not, we don't know, 848 00:38:46,945 --> 00:38:49,603 but, of course, there is a chance, you know. 849 00:38:49,706 --> 00:38:51,018 -Bill's father, William, 850 00:38:51,121 --> 00:38:53,710 was known to have an extremely high sex drive, 851 00:38:53,814 --> 00:38:56,023 something that would span generations, 852 00:38:56,126 --> 00:39:01,304 as both Bill and Rose inherited an insatiable appetite for sex. 853 00:39:01,408 --> 00:39:02,857 -Well, he certainly was a strange man. 854 00:39:02,961 --> 00:39:05,066 I never liked the look of him, anyway. 855 00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:06,585 I think my mum called him a gigolo. 856 00:39:06,689 --> 00:39:08,863 Whatever that might mean, I don't know. 857 00:39:08,967 --> 00:39:10,278 -Rather than having a job, 858 00:39:10,382 --> 00:39:12,764 he seemed to flit round from woman to woman, 859 00:39:12,867 --> 00:39:16,802 like as a butler-cum-gigolo. 860 00:39:16,906 --> 00:39:18,770 -It was not only a high sex drive 861 00:39:18,873 --> 00:39:21,531 that Bill and Rose inherited from William. 862 00:39:21,635 --> 00:39:24,465 They would also inherit an obsession for cleaning. 863 00:39:24,569 --> 00:39:27,813 -William Letts was absolutely obsessed with cleanliness, 864 00:39:27,917 --> 00:39:30,264 bleaching the house top to bottom, 865 00:39:30,368 --> 00:39:34,233 nothing could be out of place, and Bill had to follow suit. 866 00:39:34,337 --> 00:39:36,684 And then, unfortunately, 867 00:39:36,788 --> 00:39:39,515 Bill did follow suit, to the Nth degree, 868 00:39:39,618 --> 00:39:43,035 and that would carry on into his marriage. 869 00:39:43,139 --> 00:39:46,418 -In 1942, Bill married Daisy. 870 00:39:46,522 --> 00:39:49,732 A year later, they moved into their new council home, 871 00:39:49,835 --> 00:39:52,838 on Morwenna Park Road in Northam, Devon. 872 00:39:52,942 --> 00:39:55,979 Bill and Daisy would go on to have seven children, 873 00:39:56,083 --> 00:39:58,672 Rose being the fifth to arrive. 874 00:39:58,775 --> 00:40:01,364 But Bill was hiding a secret diagnosis 875 00:40:01,468 --> 00:40:05,886 that would cause his paranoia to intensify. 876 00:40:05,989 --> 00:40:10,546 -Bill was said to have severe psychotic episodes. 877 00:40:10,649 --> 00:40:15,516 He had been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic 878 00:40:15,620 --> 00:40:17,587 when he was a teenager 879 00:40:17,691 --> 00:40:22,109 and that had never been disclosed to the family 880 00:40:22,212 --> 00:40:24,422 and he remained untreated. 881 00:40:24,525 --> 00:40:26,216 He would think people were talking about him 882 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,943 and have a go at his wife all the time. 883 00:40:29,047 --> 00:40:30,393 If she was even talking to the neighbors, 884 00:40:30,497 --> 00:40:32,153 he would hit her and pull her in. 885 00:40:32,257 --> 00:40:35,812 The police were called. Nothing happened. 886 00:40:35,916 --> 00:40:39,678 He seemed to be very OCD, as well -- 887 00:40:39,782 --> 00:40:42,647 always on at his wife, always on at the children, 888 00:40:42,750 --> 00:40:44,442 "Keep the place clean," you know? 889 00:40:44,545 --> 00:40:48,756 And he would come home and shout and thrash them. 890 00:40:48,860 --> 00:40:51,000 -In fear of violence from Bill, 891 00:40:51,103 --> 00:40:53,140 Daisy would also develop an obsession 892 00:40:53,243 --> 00:40:55,383 for keeping everything clean. 893 00:40:55,487 --> 00:40:58,317 -Cleanliness, that was the main thing with her. 894 00:40:58,421 --> 00:41:00,596 She used to scrub, scrub, scrub. 895 00:41:00,699 --> 00:41:03,253 The backyard, you know, she'd be out there 896 00:41:03,357 --> 00:41:07,223 scrubbing that with a hosepipe and bleach. 897 00:41:07,326 --> 00:41:09,708 -Daisy's obsession became so intense 898 00:41:09,812 --> 00:41:11,434 that the children were not allowed out, 899 00:41:11,538 --> 00:41:13,712 in case they came home dirty. 900 00:41:13,816 --> 00:41:15,231 But, on one occasion, 901 00:41:15,334 --> 00:41:19,269 Rose's older sister decided to go out to play. 902 00:41:19,373 --> 00:41:22,376 -Rose's oldest sister was a little bit rebellious 903 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,758 and I recall one time when we took her out 904 00:41:24,861 --> 00:41:26,207 for the afternoon, 905 00:41:26,311 --> 00:41:29,141 go swimming and ride the horses out there 906 00:41:29,245 --> 00:41:31,419 and, I mean, we used to get filthy out there, 907 00:41:31,523 --> 00:41:33,939 really, rolling around. 908 00:41:34,043 --> 00:41:36,666 She really got so excited, she was almost manic. 909 00:41:36,770 --> 00:41:39,876 She'd laugh and giggle and prance around. 910 00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:44,087 -But this rare, fun-filled day would come at a price. 911 00:41:44,191 --> 00:41:46,434 -When she got home, stinking of horses, 912 00:41:46,538 --> 00:41:49,610 that's when she got this hell of a beating. 913 00:41:49,714 --> 00:41:51,854 Daisy was hosing her down in the garden. 914 00:41:51,957 --> 00:41:53,649 She was screaming and screaming, 915 00:41:53,752 --> 00:41:55,858 stripped naked, being hosed down 916 00:41:55,961 --> 00:41:58,239 with cold water, obviously. 917 00:41:58,343 --> 00:42:02,312 Oh, it was awful to hear. 918 00:42:02,416 --> 00:42:04,522 And that's when my mother intervened 919 00:42:04,625 --> 00:42:06,800 and then she took her in. 920 00:42:06,903 --> 00:42:09,354 My mum, she really went onto me. 921 00:42:09,457 --> 00:42:11,494 She said, "Don't ever take her out again 922 00:42:11,598 --> 00:42:13,772 because you've caused that girl to have a hiding. 923 00:42:13,876 --> 00:42:16,464 She gets enough of that, anyway." 924 00:42:16,568 --> 00:42:19,847 -Yes, Daisy did shout and hit the children, as well, 925 00:42:19,951 --> 00:42:24,645 but I think she was trying very hard to keep everything tidy, 926 00:42:24,749 --> 00:42:27,337 just so, and bleaching everything 927 00:42:27,441 --> 00:42:29,270 so that he wouldn't come home 928 00:42:29,374 --> 00:42:32,411 and have one of these terrible rages where he would hit them. 929 00:42:32,515 --> 00:42:34,413 He would do things like spoil the food 930 00:42:34,517 --> 00:42:37,934 and tip the dustbin out all across the kitchen. 931 00:42:38,038 --> 00:42:42,352 So the woman had a very, very hard time with him. 932 00:42:42,456 --> 00:42:47,668 -He bullied, intimidated, and, indeed, in the end, 933 00:42:47,772 --> 00:42:50,844 terrified his wife, Daisy. 934 00:42:50,947 --> 00:42:53,467 That awful, worst kind of bully -- 935 00:42:53,571 --> 00:42:54,951 a coward, at one moment; 936 00:42:55,055 --> 00:42:58,403 and then, vicious to those who couldn't fight back. 937 00:42:58,506 --> 00:42:59,784 ♪♪ 938 00:42:59,887 --> 00:43:03,097 -Bill would put on this very pleasant face 939 00:43:03,201 --> 00:43:05,065 to most of the neighbors. 940 00:43:05,168 --> 00:43:06,549 He was very charming. 941 00:43:06,653 --> 00:43:08,758 So, of course, people won't believe that. 942 00:43:08,862 --> 00:43:13,798 So he has this kind of friendly street angel; 943 00:43:13,901 --> 00:43:16,214 and then, he's this house devil face. 944 00:43:16,317 --> 00:43:18,043 [Static crackles] ♪♪ 945 00:43:18,147 --> 00:43:20,425 -And, just like her father, 946 00:43:20,528 --> 00:43:23,324 Rose developed an appetite for coercive control 947 00:43:23,428 --> 00:43:25,050 when she ventured into adulthood. 948 00:43:25,154 --> 00:43:27,639 ♪♪ 949 00:43:27,743 --> 00:43:30,435 Fred and Rose would drive around Gloucestershire, 950 00:43:30,538 --> 00:43:35,095 searching for girls to lure back to 25 Cromwell Street. 951 00:43:35,198 --> 00:43:37,960 They would get a babysitter in and they would go out. 952 00:43:38,063 --> 00:43:41,688 They pick up Caroline Owens, who's hitchhiking home 953 00:43:41,791 --> 00:43:43,344 and lives in the Forest of Dean. 954 00:43:43,448 --> 00:43:45,036 Rose is sitting there. 955 00:43:45,139 --> 00:43:48,626 She has a baby, she's pregnant, 956 00:43:48,729 --> 00:43:51,387 and she's grooming this girlie, 957 00:43:51,490 --> 00:43:54,045 like enticing her to get into the car, 958 00:43:54,148 --> 00:43:56,012 speaking in this lovely voice. 959 00:43:56,116 --> 00:43:57,635 And also sitting there with a baby, 960 00:43:57,738 --> 00:44:00,499 which they both know is going to make any young girl 961 00:44:00,603 --> 00:44:03,226 feel quite sort of safe with them. 962 00:44:03,330 --> 00:44:05,953 I think both of them, they're psychopaths 963 00:44:06,057 --> 00:44:07,955 and they know how to charm, 964 00:44:08,059 --> 00:44:11,890 so they can present so well to people. 965 00:44:11,994 --> 00:44:14,617 So, of course, Caroline gets in. 966 00:44:14,721 --> 00:44:17,240 -The couple charm and coerce Caroline 967 00:44:17,344 --> 00:44:21,210 into coming to live with them as their in-house nanny. 968 00:44:21,313 --> 00:44:26,318 But it's soon clear Rose has an alternative agenda. 969 00:44:26,422 --> 00:44:29,770 -And they start their sadistical games with her. 970 00:44:29,874 --> 00:44:31,461 -They started to get heavy with her. 971 00:44:31,565 --> 00:44:33,636 I think they would barge into the bathroom 972 00:44:33,740 --> 00:44:35,327 when she was in the bathroom. 973 00:44:35,431 --> 00:44:37,088 She felt uncomfortable with them. 974 00:44:37,191 --> 00:44:40,781 They're both trying to invite her in to have sex with them. 975 00:44:40,885 --> 00:44:41,782 -Rose didn't stop. 976 00:44:41,886 --> 00:44:43,439 She wanted to kiss her, 977 00:44:43,542 --> 00:44:45,096 Fred was egging them on, 978 00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:47,961 so she got her stuff and went. 979 00:44:48,064 --> 00:44:50,273 -Caroline managed to escape. 980 00:44:50,377 --> 00:44:52,828 But it was short-lived. 981 00:44:52,931 --> 00:44:55,382 -And then, they again coaxed her 982 00:44:55,485 --> 00:44:58,040 when she was hitchhiking on a later occasion. 983 00:44:58,143 --> 00:44:59,662 They got her in the car, beat her. 984 00:44:59,766 --> 00:45:03,597 Fred had punched her and quietened her, 985 00:45:03,701 --> 00:45:07,049 so that Rose could do what she wanted with her. 986 00:45:07,152 --> 00:45:10,846 -Rose scratched and brutalized her in the back of the car. 987 00:45:10,949 --> 00:45:13,918 When she got back to Cromwell Street, 988 00:45:14,021 --> 00:45:19,233 this time, it was a brutal and tortuous regime. 989 00:45:19,337 --> 00:45:21,339 She was being held there and beaten 990 00:45:21,442 --> 00:45:23,030 and she feared for her life. 991 00:45:23,134 --> 00:45:24,825 -Fred was actually restraining her, 992 00:45:24,929 --> 00:45:27,414 keeping her there for Rose. 993 00:45:27,517 --> 00:45:31,832 He said he kidnapped her for Rose. 994 00:45:31,936 --> 00:45:35,042 -Fred's behavior was sadism 995 00:45:35,146 --> 00:45:39,253 and advising her that he was going to beat her 996 00:45:39,357 --> 00:45:43,741 and then, he meekly asserted that he would have sex with her, 997 00:45:43,844 --> 00:45:46,053 but she mustn't tell Rose. 998 00:45:46,157 --> 00:45:48,746 Eventually, Caroline Owens was able to escape 999 00:45:48,849 --> 00:45:50,713 and, as a result of that, 1000 00:45:50,817 --> 00:45:53,164 her parents reported the matter to the police. 1001 00:45:53,267 --> 00:45:56,926 ♪♪ 1002 00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:59,929 -They were taken to court and Fred put his suit on, 1003 00:46:00,033 --> 00:46:03,830 presented well, they thought he looked a reasonable chap. 1004 00:46:03,933 --> 00:46:06,246 And Rose was like heavily pregnant 1005 00:46:06,349 --> 00:46:09,042 and telling them that she was going to 1006 00:46:09,145 --> 00:46:13,701 have some kind of therapy for her, you know, ways. 1007 00:46:13,805 --> 00:46:15,117 And the charges were reduced 1008 00:46:15,220 --> 00:46:18,292 because Caroline couldn't face them in court. 1009 00:46:18,396 --> 00:46:22,055 -A charge of rape was proffered, 1010 00:46:22,158 --> 00:46:25,783 but it was plea-bargained down to a sexual assault 1011 00:46:25,886 --> 00:46:27,439 in a magistrates court. 1012 00:46:27,543 --> 00:46:31,512 They were both fined £25 and had a rap on the knuckles. 1013 00:46:31,616 --> 00:46:32,790 I think their solicitor said, 1014 00:46:32,893 --> 00:46:34,515 "Well, you know, they're a young couple. 1015 00:46:34,619 --> 00:46:36,069 They won't do it again," 1016 00:46:36,172 --> 00:46:38,450 and, extraordinarily, the magistrates bought that. 1017 00:46:38,554 --> 00:46:40,694 -And the interesting thing is that neither of them 1018 00:46:40,798 --> 00:46:43,801 were embarrassed about that, either, particularly Rose, 1019 00:46:43,904 --> 00:46:46,527 because she was a complete narcissist. 1020 00:46:46,631 --> 00:46:48,633 It meant nothing to her. 1021 00:46:48,736 --> 00:46:50,877 -It was a kind of abandonment, you know. 1022 00:46:50,980 --> 00:46:54,397 Somehow, they were getting away with it. 1023 00:46:54,501 --> 00:46:55,709 -They were given carte blanche, 1024 00:46:55,813 --> 00:46:58,470 so, the next time, they were going to kill. 1025 00:46:58,574 --> 00:47:00,956 Nobody is going to escape them, the next time, 1026 00:47:01,059 --> 00:47:02,371 to live to tell the tale. 1027 00:47:02,474 --> 00:47:04,442 ♪♪ 1028 00:47:04,545 --> 00:47:07,963 -With zero respect for the law, Fred and Rose continued 1029 00:47:08,066 --> 00:47:10,551 using the same method of driving around, 1030 00:47:10,655 --> 00:47:12,864 pursuing young, vulnerable women, 1031 00:47:12,968 --> 00:47:17,110 often calling on their lodger Jayne to babysit for them. 1032 00:47:17,213 --> 00:47:18,456 -Looking after the younger ones, 1033 00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:21,459 I formed quite a friendship with them. 1034 00:47:21,562 --> 00:47:23,737 They were dear little things. 1035 00:47:23,841 --> 00:47:27,258 It upsets me to think that I was looking after their children 1036 00:47:27,361 --> 00:47:30,986 for them to be evil people. 1037 00:47:31,089 --> 00:47:33,540 -Using the same ruse of needing a nanny, 1038 00:47:33,643 --> 00:47:35,922 they lured 19-year-old Lynda Gough back 1039 00:47:36,025 --> 00:47:39,787 to their cellar in Cromwell Street. 1040 00:47:39,891 --> 00:47:43,791 -They trussed her up and killed her. 1041 00:47:43,895 --> 00:47:46,864 It was a horrendous murder. 1042 00:47:46,967 --> 00:47:51,489 And she was buried outside by the bathroom area. 1043 00:47:51,592 --> 00:47:54,319 ♪♪ 1044 00:47:54,423 --> 00:47:56,114 Rose immediately went through her clothes 1045 00:47:56,218 --> 00:47:57,529 and put her clothes on. 1046 00:47:57,633 --> 00:48:01,775 She could just go and kill this girl with Fred 1047 00:48:01,879 --> 00:48:05,675 and go and put the girl's clothes on. 1048 00:48:05,779 --> 00:48:07,919 -When Lynda's mother came looking for her, 1049 00:48:08,023 --> 00:48:11,819 she witnessed Rose's narcissism firsthand. 1050 00:48:11,923 --> 00:48:15,064 -Lynda Gough's mother came to find her daughter 1051 00:48:15,168 --> 00:48:19,241 and saw some of her clothes blowing in the wind on the line 1052 00:48:19,344 --> 00:48:22,589 and Rose in her slippers and cardigan. 1053 00:48:22,692 --> 00:48:24,246 And she was just, "Oh, I never heard of her." 1054 00:48:24,349 --> 00:48:27,076 Well, of course she had, you know. 1055 00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:29,285 The mother knew she was lying. 1056 00:48:29,389 --> 00:48:32,357 -It was, in fact, her lack of empathy 1057 00:48:32,461 --> 00:48:35,153 and her association with Fred West 1058 00:48:35,257 --> 00:48:37,293 that led her to be a killer. 1059 00:48:37,397 --> 00:48:41,194 ♪♪ 1060 00:48:41,297 --> 00:48:42,609 -Within months of killing Lynda Gough, 1061 00:48:42,712 --> 00:48:44,576 Fred and Rose struck again. 1062 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,751 ♪♪ 1063 00:48:46,854 --> 00:48:50,341 This time, they abducted 15-year-old Carol Ann Cooper. 1064 00:48:50,444 --> 00:48:53,240 ♪♪ 1065 00:48:53,344 --> 00:48:56,105 -She'd been having a night out with her boyfriend 1066 00:48:56,209 --> 00:49:01,835 and they followed her in the car, 1067 00:49:01,939 --> 00:49:04,907 picked her up when she got off the bus, 1068 00:49:05,011 --> 00:49:09,222 took her back, and it was a horrendous murder. 1069 00:49:09,325 --> 00:49:11,672 ♪♪ 1070 00:49:11,776 --> 00:49:15,366 -Over a frenzied period spanning less than two years, 1071 00:49:15,469 --> 00:49:19,611 six young females had been lured to 25 Cromwell Street, 1072 00:49:19,715 --> 00:49:22,166 where they were tortured, murdered, 1073 00:49:22,269 --> 00:49:24,996 and buried beneath the family home. 1074 00:49:25,100 --> 00:49:28,068 -I think they were totally out of control. 1075 00:49:28,172 --> 00:49:31,520 They became more and more so as they got away with it. 1076 00:49:31,623 --> 00:49:35,489 -This is fairly normal for serial killers 1077 00:49:35,593 --> 00:49:37,698 who get a lot of pleasure 1078 00:49:37,802 --> 00:49:40,701 from protracted torture and killing of others, 1079 00:49:40,805 --> 00:49:45,948 in that the next one has to be more. 1080 00:49:46,052 --> 00:49:49,124 -She was bound up with duct tape and left her eyes, 1081 00:49:49,227 --> 00:49:52,127 so that she could see what they were going to do to her. 1082 00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:53,404 [Static crackles] ♪♪ 1083 00:49:53,507 --> 00:49:54,992 -The more macabre nature 1084 00:49:55,095 --> 00:49:57,787 of this torture got progressively worse, 1085 00:49:57,891 --> 00:49:59,755 with one killing following another. 1086 00:49:59,858 --> 00:50:01,308 [Static crackles] ♪♪ 1087 00:50:01,412 --> 00:50:05,899 -Mummified and a straw was poked through, up her nose, 1088 00:50:06,003 --> 00:50:08,626 so that they could keep this young girl alive 1089 00:50:08,729 --> 00:50:10,110 while they tortured her. 1090 00:50:10,214 --> 00:50:14,011 -Extreme bondage, metal tubes, binding, 1091 00:50:14,114 --> 00:50:18,498 hanging people from the ceiling, like pieces of meat. 1092 00:50:18,601 --> 00:50:23,641 More sadism, more paraphernalia, more suffering. 1093 00:50:23,744 --> 00:50:27,438 -Rose was known to use very large vibrators on them, 1094 00:50:27,541 --> 00:50:32,063 you know, so huge that they did massive damage. 1095 00:50:32,167 --> 00:50:35,791 -It got worse and worse and worse. 1096 00:50:35,894 --> 00:50:38,000 -Anyone who saw any of the pictures 1097 00:50:38,104 --> 00:50:40,451 of what happened to those girls -- 1098 00:50:40,554 --> 00:50:43,316 you know, the missing bones, the kneecaps removed, 1099 00:50:43,419 --> 00:50:48,666 the hanging in the cellar, the awful bindings with -- 1100 00:50:48,769 --> 00:50:54,292 it just sends a shudder down my spine, to this day. 1101 00:50:54,396 --> 00:50:56,329 -Rose was very, very cruel. 1102 00:50:56,432 --> 00:50:58,400 She wanted to hurt women as much as she could. 1103 00:50:58,503 --> 00:51:01,196 It was something in her. 1104 00:51:01,299 --> 00:51:03,577 It's almost like killing a version of herself. 1105 00:51:03,681 --> 00:51:08,789 ♪♪ 1106 00:51:08,893 --> 00:51:12,793 -This may have been her way of eradicating her past, 1107 00:51:12,897 --> 00:51:17,626 getting rid of all those thoughts and vulnerabilities 1108 00:51:17,729 --> 00:51:20,491 that she had felt from her early childhood. 1109 00:51:20,594 --> 00:51:21,526 -She had no power. 1110 00:51:21,630 --> 00:51:23,804 She was oppressed, as she said. 1111 00:51:23,908 --> 00:51:29,224 It was her way of taking out her revenge on these young girls. 1112 00:51:29,327 --> 00:51:30,673 And she was so cruel. 1113 00:51:30,777 --> 00:51:32,917 [Static crackles] ♪♪ 1114 00:51:33,020 --> 00:51:34,781 -And Rose would not have to search far 1115 00:51:34,884 --> 00:51:36,334 for the next victim -- 1116 00:51:36,438 --> 00:51:37,853 Shirley Robinson, 1117 00:51:37,956 --> 00:51:41,408 one of the Wests' lodgers at 25 Cromwell Street. 1118 00:51:41,512 --> 00:51:43,272 -I made a very good friend out of Shirley. 1119 00:51:43,376 --> 00:51:46,931 We'd cook a Pot Noodle together and sit and talk for ages. 1120 00:51:47,034 --> 00:51:49,761 Her and Rose very much looked like each other, so, sometimes, 1121 00:51:49,865 --> 00:51:51,522 I'd go into the kitchen, take a quick look, 1122 00:51:51,625 --> 00:51:53,558 because Shirley would very often be down in the kitchen. 1123 00:51:53,662 --> 00:51:55,836 I'd say, "Hi, Rose. 1124 00:51:55,940 --> 00:51:58,011 Oh, sorry, Shirley. It's you." 1125 00:51:58,115 --> 00:52:02,015 -It was not only looks that Shirley and Rose had in common. 1126 00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:03,568 I didn't realize that Shirley 1127 00:52:03,672 --> 00:52:05,156 was having a relationship with Fred. 1128 00:52:05,260 --> 00:52:07,262 I found out at the end that she'd got pregnant by Fred, 1129 00:52:07,365 --> 00:52:10,023 so I thought it was just one of those things that happened. 1130 00:52:10,127 --> 00:52:13,233 As her and Rose were so friendly, I didn't like 1131 00:52:13,337 --> 00:52:15,304 put the two and two together because, obviously, 1132 00:52:15,408 --> 00:52:17,617 if Rose was having men in, 1133 00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:19,653 what's Fred doing to other women? [Laughs] 1134 00:52:19,757 --> 00:52:22,035 [Static crackles] -Today, Royale Robinson, 1135 00:52:22,139 --> 00:52:24,865 whose daughter Shirley Ann was found in the garden, 1136 00:52:24,969 --> 00:52:27,247 along with her unborn child. 1137 00:52:27,351 --> 00:52:31,044 She was killed by Frederick and Rosemary West. 1138 00:52:31,148 --> 00:52:33,805 -I just thought, "Maybe she's not able 1139 00:52:33,909 --> 00:52:35,152 to live in one room with the baby, 1140 00:52:35,255 --> 00:52:38,534 so she's moved on and found somewhere else." 1141 00:52:38,638 --> 00:52:40,847 -Shirley's remains were buried in the garden, 1142 00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:44,471 alongside her and Fred's unborn baby. 1143 00:52:44,575 --> 00:52:47,267 -To be told that Shirley had left, Shirley had gone, 1144 00:52:47,371 --> 00:52:51,029 none of it, none of this, made any sense, whatsoever. 1145 00:52:51,133 --> 00:52:54,343 -Jayne had no idea she was living in the same house 1146 00:52:54,447 --> 00:52:57,657 with two sadistic serial killers. 1147 00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:58,899 -Fred was just -- 1148 00:52:59,003 --> 00:53:00,142 He was a gentleman. 1149 00:53:00,246 --> 00:53:02,040 He was very pleasant, very polite. 1150 00:53:02,144 --> 00:53:03,697 He was constantly working in the house. 1151 00:53:03,801 --> 00:53:05,458 Slap of paint here, a bit of work there, 1152 00:53:05,561 --> 00:53:06,942 a bit of digging in the garden. 1153 00:53:07,045 --> 00:53:08,633 He was always there, very early in the morning, 1154 00:53:08,737 --> 00:53:10,290 before everybody else. 1155 00:53:10,394 --> 00:53:13,328 Rose was generally not a morning person. 1156 00:53:13,431 --> 00:53:14,881 She used to walk around with her cardigan 1157 00:53:14,984 --> 00:53:16,676 and her trainer socks and skirt on, 1158 00:53:16,779 --> 00:53:18,609 barking at the children -- not speaking to them, 1159 00:53:18,712 --> 00:53:20,197 barking orders at them. 1160 00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:21,612 Anne Marie was scorned upon -- 1161 00:53:21,715 --> 00:53:23,372 "You're not getting breakfast fast enough. 1162 00:53:23,476 --> 00:53:25,098 You can't give them toast without giving them a drink, 1163 00:53:25,202 --> 00:53:28,550 you stupid --" so, very demeaning to the children. 1164 00:53:28,653 --> 00:53:30,931 Rose was definitely in charge in the West household. 1165 00:53:31,035 --> 00:53:33,520 There was no denying that. [Laughs] 1166 00:53:33,624 --> 00:53:35,142 -Of all the West children, 1167 00:53:35,246 --> 00:53:37,524 it was Rose's eldest daughter, Heather, 1168 00:53:37,628 --> 00:53:39,492 who left a lasting impression. 1169 00:53:39,595 --> 00:53:42,702 -Heather, quite a switched-on little girl. 1170 00:53:42,805 --> 00:53:44,600 We'd sit and talk about silly little things, 1171 00:53:44,704 --> 00:53:47,327 you know, hair and, "Will you wear makeup later on 1172 00:53:47,431 --> 00:53:48,777 and what do you want to do as a job?" 1173 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:50,917 So she was just an inquisitive little body. 1174 00:53:51,020 --> 00:53:53,022 ♪♪ 1175 00:53:53,126 --> 00:53:55,439 -But, one evening, Jayne was woken up 1176 00:53:55,542 --> 00:53:58,890 by something that would change her life forever. 1177 00:53:58,994 --> 00:54:00,892 -Something disturbed me. 1178 00:54:00,996 --> 00:54:03,412 And, initially, I couldn't quite make out what it was 1179 00:54:03,516 --> 00:54:06,450 and then, I realized it was in the cellar. 1180 00:54:06,553 --> 00:54:08,452 I could hear Heather screaming, "Stop it, Daddy! 1181 00:54:08,555 --> 00:54:09,763 Stop it, Daddy!" 1182 00:54:09,867 --> 00:54:10,799 And then, it seemed to stop 1183 00:54:10,902 --> 00:54:12,145 and then, it would happen again. 1184 00:54:12,249 --> 00:54:13,974 And this happened for a few nights in a row. 1185 00:54:14,078 --> 00:54:16,391 [Static crackles] [Rotors whirring] 1186 00:54:16,494 --> 00:54:19,394 -A specialist search team arrived at Cromwell Street 1187 00:54:19,497 --> 00:54:22,949 with a warrant to search for Heather West. 1188 00:54:23,052 --> 00:54:26,021 -I put the news on and the first thing I saw was Heather. 1189 00:54:26,124 --> 00:54:28,057 I thought, "Oh, my gosh! 1190 00:54:28,161 --> 00:54:30,094 Heather's been killed." 1191 00:54:30,197 --> 00:54:32,579 [Static crackles] In 1992, 1192 00:54:32,683 --> 00:54:34,857 15 years after Jayne left, 1193 00:54:34,961 --> 00:54:36,997 one of the children reported to police 1194 00:54:37,101 --> 00:54:38,861 they'd been raped by Fred. 1195 00:54:38,965 --> 00:54:41,692 Five of the West children were taken into care 1196 00:54:41,795 --> 00:54:43,935 whilst police investigated. 1197 00:54:44,039 --> 00:54:45,109 The following year, 1198 00:54:45,212 --> 00:54:46,800 social workers reported 1199 00:54:46,904 --> 00:54:49,976 that the West children had claimed that Fred often joked 1200 00:54:50,079 --> 00:54:52,910 that Heather was buried beneath the patio. 1201 00:54:53,013 --> 00:54:54,532 In 1994, 1202 00:54:54,636 --> 00:54:57,086 whilst investigating Heather's whereabouts, 1203 00:54:57,190 --> 00:55:00,814 police obtained a search warrant for 25 Cromwell Street 1204 00:55:00,918 --> 00:55:02,299 and, as Fred was led away, 1205 00:55:02,402 --> 00:55:04,370 he confessed to Heather's murder. 1206 00:55:04,473 --> 00:55:07,027 -The back garden of 25 Cromwell Street. 1207 00:55:07,131 --> 00:55:10,237 He'd never told his wife what he'd done. 1208 00:55:10,341 --> 00:55:13,862 -When I saw Rose at Cheltenham Police Station, 1209 00:55:13,965 --> 00:55:17,072 she was really very, very upset 1210 00:55:17,175 --> 00:55:18,867 and it was almost a mantra that, 1211 00:55:18,970 --> 00:55:21,939 "It was that flipping Fred West, you know. 1212 00:55:22,042 --> 00:55:25,183 What had he effing been doing?" 1213 00:55:25,287 --> 00:55:27,841 -The first time I ever heard Frederick West describing 1214 00:55:27,945 --> 00:55:32,536 how he dismembered his daughter, Heather, 1215 00:55:32,639 --> 00:55:35,470 and stuck her in a sack, bin bags -- 1216 00:55:35,573 --> 00:55:37,472 "I couldn't get her in the dustbin, so I thought, 1217 00:55:37,575 --> 00:55:39,232 'I'll cut her legs off.'" 1218 00:55:39,336 --> 00:55:41,234 Then, he cuts her head off. 1219 00:55:41,338 --> 00:55:43,132 It's unimaginable. 1220 00:55:43,236 --> 00:55:45,963 ♪♪ 1221 00:55:46,066 --> 00:55:48,137 -Officers who found Heather's remains 1222 00:55:48,241 --> 00:55:51,140 found signs that she was not alone. 1223 00:55:51,244 --> 00:55:52,866 -When this story happened, 1224 00:55:52,970 --> 00:55:56,180 it was a huge shock to the people of Gloucester. 1225 00:55:56,283 --> 00:55:58,285 The whole thing became a bit of a circus, really, 1226 00:55:58,389 --> 00:56:01,254 as far as the press and media interest. 1227 00:56:01,358 --> 00:56:04,015 It was moving so quickly, there was so much happening, 1228 00:56:04,119 --> 00:56:05,362 there were so many developments, 1229 00:56:05,465 --> 00:56:07,122 in terms of bodies being found. 1230 00:56:07,225 --> 00:56:10,367 -West had hinted that there were further bodies to be discovered. 1231 00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:13,024 He led detectives down to the cellar, 1232 00:56:13,128 --> 00:56:15,406 indicating where other victims were hidden. 1233 00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:17,097 -Human remains found in the cellar 1234 00:56:17,201 --> 00:56:19,893 are carried away for forensic examination. 1235 00:56:19,997 --> 00:56:22,551 -Despite Fred claiming all responsibility 1236 00:56:22,655 --> 00:56:25,036 and confessing where the victims were buried, 1237 00:56:25,140 --> 00:56:26,831 police had sufficient evidence 1238 00:56:26,935 --> 00:56:29,420 to arrest Rose on suspicion of murder. 1239 00:56:29,524 --> 00:56:31,146 -When I visited Rose, 1240 00:56:31,249 --> 00:56:35,668 she was relaxed and not kind of dumbstruck. 1241 00:56:35,771 --> 00:56:39,223 She did seem slightly removed from it all. 1242 00:56:39,326 --> 00:56:41,190 -She just -- It's blocked out. 1243 00:56:41,294 --> 00:56:44,504 As her mother used to say, "She held herself in as a child," 1244 00:56:44,608 --> 00:56:47,645 and maybe that's what she's doing. 1245 00:56:47,749 --> 00:56:49,544 -That probably speaks volumes 1246 00:56:49,647 --> 00:56:54,169 about this curious dichotomy in Rose's makeup. 1247 00:56:54,272 --> 00:57:01,625 You'd expect it would prompt some strong need to unload, 1248 00:57:01,728 --> 00:57:03,627 but there was none of that. 1249 00:57:03,730 --> 00:57:06,871 -The Crown Prosecution Service collated enough evidence 1250 00:57:06,975 --> 00:57:09,633 to charge Rose with ten counts of murder. 1251 00:57:09,736 --> 00:57:10,944 [Static crackles] -Frederick West, 1252 00:57:11,048 --> 00:57:12,532 the builder accused of mass murder, 1253 00:57:12,636 --> 00:57:15,501 just minutes away from a reunion with his wife, Rosemary, 1254 00:57:15,604 --> 00:57:18,055 is driven into Gloucester Magistrates Court. 1255 00:57:18,158 --> 00:57:19,470 -We saw Fred and Rose brought up, 1256 00:57:19,574 --> 00:57:20,885 one by one, into the dock 1257 00:57:20,989 --> 00:57:22,611 and we were quite surprised to see 1258 00:57:22,715 --> 00:57:27,616 just a very ordinary-looking, plumpish, middle-aged woman. 1259 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,931 She didn't appear to be upset, disturbed, angry, indignant. 1260 00:57:32,034 --> 00:57:35,348 There was no real emotion that I can recall. 1261 00:57:35,452 --> 00:57:39,110 -The clear instructions were that she said she was innocent. 1262 00:57:39,214 --> 00:57:41,043 If there was anything had happened, 1263 00:57:41,147 --> 00:57:44,046 it was because of Fred. 1264 00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:46,048 -And the whole time that they sat in that court, 1265 00:57:46,152 --> 00:57:48,257 they deliberately were not looking at each other, 1266 00:57:48,361 --> 00:57:49,880 not talking to each other. 1267 00:57:49,983 --> 00:57:52,607 Had they fallen out? Was this a ruse, on their part? 1268 00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:54,125 -They probably did discuss the fact 1269 00:57:54,229 --> 00:57:55,644 about Fred taking the blame 1270 00:57:55,748 --> 00:57:57,543 and she would walk away from it. 1271 00:57:57,646 --> 00:58:00,442 She disowned him in the witness box. 1272 00:58:00,546 --> 00:58:02,582 -She just dropped him, end of. 1273 00:58:02,686 --> 00:58:05,551 Freddie forever -- that was over forever. 1274 00:58:05,654 --> 00:58:08,312 She wanted no more to do with him. 1275 00:58:08,415 --> 00:58:10,970 -There were clear signs that she was saying, 1276 00:58:11,073 --> 00:58:14,042 "No, you've admitted it, now go and rot." 1277 00:58:14,145 --> 00:58:16,285 [Static crackles] -Frederick West was found dead 1278 00:58:16,389 --> 00:58:18,391 in his cell in Winson Green Prison. 1279 00:58:18,495 --> 00:58:20,393 He was awaiting trial, accused of murdering 1280 00:58:20,497 --> 00:58:21,670 12 women and girls. 1281 00:58:21,774 --> 00:58:27,020 ♪♪ 1282 00:58:27,124 --> 00:58:29,816 -Rosemary West in public for the first time 1283 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,129 since her husband was found hanging in his cell 1284 00:58:32,232 --> 00:58:33,786 on New Year's Day. 1285 00:58:33,889 --> 00:58:36,996 -Rose West was charged with ten counts of murder. 1286 00:58:37,099 --> 00:58:40,620 She was remanded in custody whilst she awaited trial. 1287 00:58:40,724 --> 00:58:43,520 I looked over the top of the railings 1288 00:58:43,623 --> 00:58:46,730 and it was Rose West [Laughs] and I thought, "Ooh!" 1289 00:58:46,833 --> 00:58:49,629 -Sandra Gregory was jailed for drug trafficking 1290 00:58:49,733 --> 00:58:53,219 and got to know Rose in HMP Durham. 1291 00:58:53,322 --> 00:58:54,910 -She swears a bit. 1292 00:58:55,014 --> 00:58:56,463 And she can foam a little bit at the mouth 1293 00:58:56,567 --> 00:58:58,707 when she gets a bit animated, but she'd say, 1294 00:58:58,811 --> 00:59:02,021 "They said that he killed himself to protect me. 1295 00:59:02,124 --> 00:59:03,609 They don't know nothing. 1296 00:59:03,712 --> 00:59:05,334 And you know what the ultimate murder is, Sandra?" 1297 00:59:05,438 --> 00:59:07,474 And I was like, "No, Rose, I don't." 1298 00:59:07,578 --> 00:59:10,201 "Their own! He did it because that's the ultimate murder! 1299 00:59:10,305 --> 00:59:11,927 Why was it only fucking Rose that's supposed to know 1300 00:59:12,031 --> 00:59:13,722 what he's doing in that fucking cellar? 1301 00:59:13,826 --> 00:59:15,621 It had a locked door on it, you know. 1302 00:59:15,724 --> 00:59:17,243 I never went down in that fucking cellar! 1303 00:59:17,346 --> 00:59:18,693 I'm up there, feeding all the kids!" 1304 00:59:18,796 --> 00:59:20,349 And I said, "Oh, and how many children 1305 00:59:20,453 --> 00:59:22,628 have you got, then, Rose?" 1306 00:59:22,731 --> 00:59:24,388 And she looked at me and said, 1307 00:59:24,491 --> 00:59:25,803 "Well, I used to have eight." 1308 00:59:25,907 --> 00:59:29,013 ♪♪ 1309 00:59:29,117 --> 00:59:30,843 I was like, "Ooh!" 1310 00:59:30,946 --> 00:59:33,846 I didn't progress that conversation. 1311 00:59:33,949 --> 00:59:35,917 -In October 1995, 1312 00:59:36,020 --> 00:59:40,784 Rose West was to stand trial for the ten murders. 1313 00:59:40,887 --> 00:59:42,579 -Rose was denying involvement. 1314 00:59:42,682 --> 00:59:44,063 Those were my instructions, 1315 00:59:44,166 --> 00:59:47,825 so that was the story that I would've accepted. 1316 00:59:47,929 --> 00:59:49,827 Therefore, professionally, you have to deal 1317 00:59:49,931 --> 00:59:53,037 with the evidence that seems to conflict 1318 00:59:53,141 --> 00:59:54,729 with what your client is telling you. 1319 00:59:54,832 --> 00:59:57,179 -I was astonished to hear that Rosemary West 1320 00:59:57,283 --> 00:59:58,871 was going to give evidence. 1321 00:59:58,974 --> 01:00:01,701 -Paul Cheston was the senior court correspondent 1322 01:00:01,805 --> 01:00:03,220 for the Evening Standard 1323 01:00:03,323 --> 01:00:05,809 and attended every day of the trial. 1324 01:00:05,912 --> 01:00:09,502 -She went into the witness box and immediately, 1325 01:00:09,606 --> 01:00:10,814 "I'm not to blame. 1326 01:00:10,917 --> 01:00:12,022 Fred did everything. 1327 01:00:12,125 --> 01:00:13,506 I had no idea what he was up to. 1328 01:00:13,610 --> 01:00:15,128 It was a complete mystery. 1329 01:00:15,232 --> 01:00:16,751 I was shocked and horrified to find that 1330 01:00:16,854 --> 01:00:20,099 members of my family were being killed by my husband." 1331 01:00:20,202 --> 01:00:22,584 As soon as you saw 25 Cromwell Street 1332 01:00:22,688 --> 01:00:24,517 and saw how small it was, 1333 01:00:24,621 --> 01:00:27,589 and as the number of bodies being found mounted, 1334 01:00:27,693 --> 01:00:30,661 you realized Fred was not operating on his own. 1335 01:00:30,765 --> 01:00:33,837 -Under cross-examination, it soon became apparent 1336 01:00:33,940 --> 01:00:36,115 that Rose was not telling the truth. 1337 01:00:36,218 --> 01:00:39,808 -She'd snookered herself in relation to Heather. 1338 01:00:39,912 --> 01:00:42,086 He had to kick her out because she was a lesbian. 1339 01:00:42,190 --> 01:00:45,089 And then it turns out Rose enjoyed lesbian relationships, 1340 01:00:45,193 --> 01:00:46,366 as well, and you think, 1341 01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:47,920 "Well, that's totally inconsistent." 1342 01:00:48,023 --> 01:00:49,680 And then they'd seen her around, they'd sent her money, 1343 01:00:49,784 --> 01:00:53,511 spoken to her on the phone. 1344 01:00:53,615 --> 01:00:54,927 Complete nonsense, 1345 01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:56,618 because Heather was buried in the garden. 1346 01:00:56,722 --> 01:00:58,689 I could have sat there and said, "Look, Rose, 1347 01:00:58,793 --> 01:01:00,622 you're lying through your teeth to me. 1348 01:01:00,726 --> 01:01:02,348 You're totally false. 1349 01:01:02,451 --> 01:01:05,040 Why don't you get with it and start admitting stuff?" 1350 01:01:05,144 --> 01:01:08,492 She said what was convenient to say. 1351 01:01:08,595 --> 01:01:11,253 And that's how she dealt with her evidence at court. 1352 01:01:13,324 --> 01:01:16,396 -She remained very impassive throughout the entire hearing, 1353 01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:18,640 giving very little away. 1354 01:01:18,744 --> 01:01:21,712 -Survivor Caroline Owens courageously spoke 1355 01:01:21,816 --> 01:01:26,061 about the horrific ordeal she suffered before her escape. 1356 01:01:26,165 --> 01:01:28,477 -Miss Owens claims she was subjected to 1357 01:01:28,581 --> 01:01:30,341 further serious sexual assaults, 1358 01:01:30,445 --> 01:01:32,965 including being beaten with a leather belt. 1359 01:01:33,068 --> 01:01:36,865 She told the court, "I was scared to death." 1360 01:01:36,969 --> 01:01:39,765 -She didn't appear to be upset, disturbed. 1361 01:01:39,868 --> 01:01:43,320 I think it's possible that she never really appreciated 1362 01:01:43,423 --> 01:01:45,391 the enormity of what was going on. 1363 01:01:45,494 --> 01:01:48,049 -But Rose would soon show her violent side, 1364 01:01:48,152 --> 01:01:52,536 when the prosecution presented the next key witness. 1365 01:01:52,639 --> 01:01:54,780 -Rosemary West was in the witness box for three days, 1366 01:01:54,883 --> 01:01:57,092 and was getting progressively more tired. 1367 01:01:57,196 --> 01:01:59,267 And Brian Leveson, as prosecutor, 1368 01:01:59,370 --> 01:02:02,097 cross-examined on a whole range of subjects, 1369 01:02:02,201 --> 01:02:04,203 and to build up to a climax 1370 01:02:04,306 --> 01:02:06,964 about asking her about Charmaine. 1371 01:02:07,068 --> 01:02:10,968 -She was very subdued about Charmaine. 1372 01:02:11,072 --> 01:02:16,042 She found it very difficult to revisit that. 1373 01:02:16,146 --> 01:02:19,908 -A neighbor from 25 Midland Road had come forward. 1374 01:02:20,012 --> 01:02:21,841 She had witnessed Rose's attitude 1375 01:02:21,945 --> 01:02:23,601 towards her first victim, 1376 01:02:23,705 --> 01:02:26,915 eight-year-old Charmaine, 25 years earlier. 1377 01:02:27,019 --> 01:02:29,504 -A neighbor had come into the house 1378 01:02:29,607 --> 01:02:32,058 and she was startled to see Charmaine 1379 01:02:32,162 --> 01:02:34,509 standing on a chair, stark naked, 1380 01:02:34,612 --> 01:02:36,511 bound with her hands behind her back, 1381 01:02:36,614 --> 01:02:39,031 and Rosemary West with a rolling pin 1382 01:02:39,134 --> 01:02:41,447 in an aggressive fashion. 1383 01:02:41,550 --> 01:02:43,621 And Brian Leveson pressed and pressed and pressed, 1384 01:02:43,725 --> 01:02:46,245 and eventually she snapped and shouted at him. 1385 01:02:46,348 --> 01:02:49,835 And that was the moment when the jury could see what she was, 1386 01:02:49,938 --> 01:02:52,665 not a cuddly housewife, mother of six, 1387 01:02:52,769 --> 01:02:57,635 but a short-tempered woman who would react 1388 01:02:57,739 --> 01:03:01,432 with a flash of temper when things do not go her way. 1389 01:03:04,435 --> 01:03:06,299 -She came unstuck, she didn't present as 1390 01:03:06,403 --> 01:03:08,785 a good witness in court. 1391 01:03:08,888 --> 01:03:11,891 -We perhaps had tended to want to think 1392 01:03:11,995 --> 01:03:14,791 that Rose would be the passive person who was just 1393 01:03:14,894 --> 01:03:16,482 putting up with it. 1394 01:03:16,585 --> 01:03:18,277 The more evidence we heard made us realize 1395 01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:20,969 that Rose was very much an active participant, 1396 01:03:21,073 --> 01:03:24,386 far more active than we ever could have imagined. 1397 01:03:24,490 --> 01:03:26,630 -Rosemary West was driven to court today 1398 01:03:26,733 --> 01:03:29,875 to hear the judge begin summing up seven weeks of evidence, 1399 01:03:29,978 --> 01:03:33,568 the result of almost 100 statements from witnesses. 1400 01:03:33,671 --> 01:03:36,502 -When the jury foreman read out the verdict of guilty, 1401 01:03:36,605 --> 01:03:38,538 you could see Rose West sway. 1402 01:03:38,642 --> 01:03:40,506 She was not expecting this. 1403 01:03:40,609 --> 01:03:43,095 -When Rose was finally taken down, 1404 01:03:43,198 --> 01:03:45,235 she was totally distraught. 1405 01:03:45,338 --> 01:03:49,239 The ground from under her feet had disappeared 1406 01:03:49,342 --> 01:03:51,482 and she was sobbing uncontrollably. 1407 01:03:51,586 --> 01:03:55,624 -She honestly thought that she was going to get away with this. 1408 01:03:55,728 --> 01:03:57,523 -Rosemary Pauline West, 1409 01:03:57,626 --> 01:03:59,697 on each of the ten counts of murder, 1410 01:03:59,801 --> 01:04:02,252 the sentence is one of life imprisonment. 1411 01:04:02,355 --> 01:04:06,256 -Well, she's equivocal on innocence. 1412 01:04:06,359 --> 01:04:09,121 The prospect of Rose... 1413 01:04:09,224 --> 01:04:11,882 suddenly deciding to kick the wall down and say, 1414 01:04:11,986 --> 01:04:14,126 "This is what it's all about, this is what I've done, 1415 01:04:14,229 --> 01:04:15,990 this is how I feel," 1416 01:04:16,093 --> 01:04:18,613 um, I think the chances of that are nil. 1417 01:04:18,716 --> 01:04:20,684 -And as she crossed the courtyard, 1418 01:04:20,787 --> 01:04:22,997 our camera caught the final moments as, 1419 01:04:23,100 --> 01:04:24,481 holding white carrier bag, 1420 01:04:24,584 --> 01:04:29,244 she was taken inside, flanked by warders. 1421 01:04:29,348 --> 01:04:31,695 -Rose West will die in prison, 1422 01:04:31,798 --> 01:04:34,525 where she maintains her innocence to this day. 1423 01:04:34,629 --> 01:04:37,666 ♪♪ 1424 01:04:37,770 --> 01:04:40,359 -I don't know how many mornings Rose West counts, 1425 01:04:40,462 --> 01:04:44,397 saying that, "They're being really mean to me! 1426 01:04:44,501 --> 01:04:47,573 And they're being really unkind to me!" 1427 01:04:47,676 --> 01:04:49,575 And she didn't want to come out of her cell, 1428 01:04:49,678 --> 01:04:51,888 and was considering giving up her wing cleaning job. 1429 01:04:51,991 --> 01:04:53,717 And she was really kind of upset, 1430 01:04:53,820 --> 01:04:55,546 as though she was being bullied. 1431 01:04:55,650 --> 01:04:58,204 She just didn't have the strength of character 1432 01:04:58,308 --> 01:05:01,345 that I would've expected a serial killer to have had. 1433 01:05:01,449 --> 01:05:04,245 ♪♪ 1434 01:05:04,348 --> 01:05:07,420 -She had a reality that she hadn't been able to confront 1435 01:05:07,524 --> 01:05:08,870 since her childhood. 1436 01:05:08,974 --> 01:05:11,493 When I asked her to describe her childhood, 1437 01:05:11,597 --> 01:05:14,841 she describes a sugar-sweet, 1438 01:05:14,945 --> 01:05:19,260 candy-coated, flossy, merry time. 1439 01:05:19,363 --> 01:05:23,195 She presents the home life as these vigilant, 1440 01:05:23,298 --> 01:05:25,852 overprotective parents who would do anything for their children 1441 01:05:25,956 --> 01:05:31,651 and were always there, which was complete nonsense. 1442 01:05:31,755 --> 01:05:36,242 -Since childhood, Rose has preferred fantasy over reality, 1443 01:05:36,346 --> 01:05:39,452 something that contributed to her narcissism. 1444 01:05:39,556 --> 01:05:42,076 But Rose's path may have been destined to end 1445 01:05:42,179 --> 01:05:46,666 in this disturbing way before she was even born. 1446 01:05:46,770 --> 01:05:50,498 I think where the mother is mentally ill, 1447 01:05:50,601 --> 01:05:54,847 not engaging, and stressed, suffering from anxiety, 1448 01:05:54,951 --> 01:06:00,715 it's all that stuff that impacts on the unborn child. 1449 01:06:00,818 --> 01:06:03,925 The psychology starts in the womb. 1450 01:06:04,029 --> 01:06:06,514 -Daisy's deficiencies were contributing factors 1451 01:06:06,617 --> 01:06:07,998 in Rose's development, 1452 01:06:08,102 --> 01:06:10,587 but her narcissism was a result of the abuse 1453 01:06:10,690 --> 01:06:12,451 inflicted by her father. 1454 01:06:12,554 --> 01:06:14,729 -There's no doubt that Bill Letts 1455 01:06:14,832 --> 01:06:17,111 altered his daughter considerably. 1456 01:06:17,214 --> 01:06:20,769 -Rosemary West had no morals at any time in her life. 1457 01:06:20,873 --> 01:06:23,082 She was brought up in a house of depravity, 1458 01:06:23,186 --> 01:06:26,534 and where sexual practices and customs 1459 01:06:26,637 --> 01:06:29,640 applied to other people, they didn't apply to her. 1460 01:06:29,744 --> 01:06:33,230 -The abuse by Bill Letts made her ripe 1461 01:06:33,334 --> 01:06:38,063 for her partnership with Fred West. 1462 01:06:38,166 --> 01:06:43,585 -But there is a leap between sexual depravity and murder. 1463 01:06:43,689 --> 01:06:48,211 And Fred provided that bridge that she willingly crossed. 1464 01:06:48,314 --> 01:06:50,868 ♪♪ 1465 01:06:50,972 --> 01:06:52,836 -I think Rose became a serial killer 1466 01:06:52,939 --> 01:06:54,527 because she married Fred. 1467 01:06:54,631 --> 01:06:57,703 I think, had she married somebody else, 1468 01:06:57,806 --> 01:07:00,292 it might've been very different. 1469 01:07:00,395 --> 01:07:04,503 But add the two together, the so-called folie à deux, 1470 01:07:04,606 --> 01:07:09,611 then you have an absolutely lethal combination. 1471 01:07:09,715 --> 01:07:13,615 She was encouraged, and then once she got a taste for it, 1472 01:07:13,719 --> 01:07:16,653 she couldn't stop. 1473 01:07:16,756 --> 01:07:18,448 -People will hold their hands up in horror at the way 1474 01:07:18,551 --> 01:07:20,070 that Rose was treated, 1475 01:07:20,174 --> 01:07:23,246 and what presumably led to her becoming the way she was, 1476 01:07:23,349 --> 01:07:25,248 by the abuse she suffered. 1477 01:07:25,351 --> 01:07:27,319 We'd like to think that in this day and age, 1478 01:07:27,422 --> 01:07:29,873 that situation couldn't arise, but unfortunately, 1479 01:07:29,976 --> 01:07:31,909 from cases I've covered even recently, 1480 01:07:32,013 --> 01:07:34,533 it does still happen. 1481 01:07:34,636 --> 01:07:36,811 It shows, really, that social services 1482 01:07:36,914 --> 01:07:39,503 and all the things that maybe have been learnt 1483 01:07:39,607 --> 01:07:41,643 over the last 30 years or whatever, 1484 01:07:41,747 --> 01:07:43,852 since the West case and before then, 1485 01:07:43,956 --> 01:07:47,028 are simply not, for whatever reason, 1486 01:07:47,132 --> 01:07:49,824 being -- being brought into practice, you know? 1487 01:07:49,927 --> 01:07:52,827 Elements of checking and finding out and preventing 1488 01:07:52,930 --> 01:07:54,208 just still do not happen. 1489 01:07:54,311 --> 01:07:56,658 And I think it's partly because, very often, 1490 01:07:56,762 --> 01:07:59,661 the people who do this kind of thing are extremely devious 1491 01:07:59,765 --> 01:08:02,733 and they find ways round it. 1492 01:08:02,837 --> 01:08:06,875 -Rose's contrariness continued. 1493 01:08:06,979 --> 01:08:08,394 I prepared an appeal, 1494 01:08:08,498 --> 01:08:10,396 and that application went in, 1495 01:08:10,500 --> 01:08:13,503 and then at a late stage with that, in 2001, 1496 01:08:13,606 --> 01:08:14,883 she contacted me and said, 1497 01:08:14,987 --> 01:08:17,127 "I don't want you to proceed with this," 1498 01:08:17,231 --> 01:08:19,474 because, she said, "Well, I've decided that 1499 01:08:19,578 --> 01:08:22,270 I might as well spend the rest of my life in prison." 1500 01:08:22,374 --> 01:08:24,893 So I said, "Does this mean you're admitting your guilt?" 1501 01:08:24,997 --> 01:08:26,999 And she said, "No, it doesn't." 1502 01:08:27,103 --> 01:08:30,727 So, again, there's that duplicity and contradiction 1503 01:08:30,830 --> 01:08:32,901 that you just can't get round. 1504 01:08:33,005 --> 01:08:35,387 ♪♪ 1505 01:08:35,490 --> 01:08:38,114 Does she deserve to die in prison? 1506 01:08:38,217 --> 01:08:40,012 If you accept she's guilty, then, yeah, 1507 01:08:40,116 --> 01:08:42,566 there can be absolutely no doubt she deserves to die in prison. 1508 01:08:42,670 --> 01:08:51,161 ♪♪ 1509 01:08:51,265 --> 01:09:01,137 ♪♪ 1510 01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:07,143 ♪♪ 1511 01:09:07,246 --> 01:09:11,940 ♪♪