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The Kona Coast is known
as the Gold Coast

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because it's famous
for yellow tangs.

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25 major reef fish
dealers in Honolulu

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ship out a million
yellow tangs a year.

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They refer to Hawaii reef
wildlife as livestock.

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Their warehouse is huge,

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you could drive all the way around and you
wouldn't know what it was.

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You need two things to be
an aquarium collector in Hawaii.

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It's a pulse and 50 bucks.

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They're coming from all over
the place to take our fish.

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You know, when you get
a handful of people

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trying to shut down a four
billion dollar industry,

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they're going to mount,
uh, some response,

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and they have done so.

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Here we go to Rene Umberger's
point of view video,

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and this is the attack.

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He grabs the regulator,
rips it off.

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There's the attack again,
he rips the regulator

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right out of her mouth.

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The regulator dangles freely.

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If she hadn't found it,
she would have drowned.

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Or she could've rushed
to the surface,

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embolized, and died.

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Violence shows the aquarium trade's
willingness to risk anything for money.

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<i>You are listening
to Ecotopia on KZFR.</i>

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<i>Our guest tonight is
Robert Wintner, Snorkel Bob.</i>

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<i>He's an activist fighting
the loss of tropical fish</i>

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<i>and the destruction
of the coral reefs.</i>

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<i>Every year we open the eyes</i>

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<i>of thousands upon thousands
more people to what's going on.</i>

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<i>These guys can go out
and empty any given reef,</i>

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<i>and it's legal.
That can't be right!</i>

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<i>But it's...
It's what's happening.</i>

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At any given moment,

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there are 27 million
reef wildlife individuals

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in the aquarium pipeline.

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The pipeline begins at the point
of capture in a net...

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and it ends when the fish goes
belly up in the home aquarium.

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And demand comes
from the home hobbyist,

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that's how the system works.

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It's like cut flowers.

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But this is marine wildlife.

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The effect on reefs
worldwide is devastating.

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This is a Hawaii treasure.

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This is Hawaii culture.

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It's not livestock...
and they're stealing it.

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The consensus is our reefs are
nothing like they used to be.

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I've seen species that were
available for sale before,

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but are no longer available
because they are gone, just gone.

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Still kind of sad to realize

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the fish you own now was
actually once living happily

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in a massive ocean, and is now
living in a box of water.

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<i>99% of these critters die
within a year of capture,</i>

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<i>and they're dying
and being replaced.</i>

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<i>That's a dark hobby.</i>

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The aquarium campaign didn't
really begin in a moment.

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We identified
threats to reef health.

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The first was gill nets.

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They're also known
as walls of death.

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They kill monk seals
and turtles,

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both are endangered species.

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On Maui, we recruited
a very loved Kapuna there,

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Kimokeo Kapahulehua,

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and put him in an outrigger
canoe, and he's paddling along,

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and then we go underwater
in a gill net,

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and it's trapping
a turtle who's dying.

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<i>"Tell DAR
to stop gill nets now."</i>

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And we ran that statewide,
it was very effective.

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And, uh, that year,

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gill nets were banned
on the island of Maui.

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The rest of Hawaii
has regulations that are mostly,

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uh, padding and fluff,
they're not very effective.

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We worked to stop the gill net

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for over harvesting
what they should not harvest.

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We had a system
in Hawaiian management,

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when to catch, how to catch,

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with what you're going
to catch it for.

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And we went by the season.

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We would never harvest
everything all at once,

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so we do not ever over fish.

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<i>The Supreme Court
of Hawaii ruled</i>

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<i>that this aquarium trade must
defer to the Hawaiian culture,</i>

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<i>also known as the host culture,
you cannot slap it in the face.</i>

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<i>Well, obviously it's been
slapped in the face</i>

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<i>time and time again
for the last 200 years.</i>

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This is hard to read,
I'm going to try.

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"Miloli'i, last fishing
village in Hawaii Nei."

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You know,
here you have an industry

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where they're not taking,

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they're making money
out of the tourists

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to come on a boat,
take them diving.

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There would be more...
More logic, yeah,

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to have the fish stay there

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and come to Hawaii
and go look at it.

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But no take my fish and...

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You know, a...
And put them in aquarium up in,

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in New York City or Tennessee
or whatever, you know,

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that's not their home.

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When I look at my<i> kapunas,</i>

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they didn't have science,
but they had a common sense.

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Yeah? How much you take,
when to go,

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they know all the moons
coming up, they're reading...

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I mean, I look at my<i> tutu</i> men,
they was great, awes... awesome.

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Never worry about
fish going deplete.

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Kona and Miloli'i
is considered the Gold Coast

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for collecting aquarium fish.

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It is the most pristine coast
in the state of Hawaii.

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We got this piece of property
from my grandfather,

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who got it from his grandmother

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back in the early days
of the Kingdom of Hawaii.

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It gave them inspiration
and it gave them hope.

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Our grandfather would never
agree on something like this.

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I always stood
on the grounds of...

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Of being a cultural
practitioner.

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Our families down here,
we live on a system of balance

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where we take only what we need
to feed our families.

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Be careful,
everybody reach out together.

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I know you guys not paddlers,

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but no lean all
on one side, everybody.

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- Oh!
- -Oh, what happened?

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I remember my dad
going to meetings in Kona.

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He realized there are
a lot of collectors

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that were coming to our island
and collecting,

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and he didn't agree with that.

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He lobbied,
worked through the state,

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he met the governor
to do something about this.

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Some of our own native people
are hired by them to collect,

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and it's... it's not<i> pono,</i>
you know, it's not right,

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because they knew growing up
that they survived off the fish,

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and whenever they have said
they've brainwashed them,

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I feel it's not true.

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It's overfishing
by these people.

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You know, the state did not do a good job
to manage them properly.

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This... the only industry I know

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that can go 365 days a year

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and take as much as they want.

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That's not right.
That's not<i> pono.</i>

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Fish are able
to sing to one another.

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They are able to develop
complex social structures.

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They develop
cultural traditions.

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They can even talk
to one another underwater.

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<i>Most people don't know
this kind of thing about fish.</i>

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- Jonathan, how are you?
- Jonathan Balcombe is a biologist

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with a PhD in ethology,

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which is the study
of animal behavior.

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His book is<i> What a Fish Knows:</i>

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<i>The Inner Lives
of Our Underwater Cousins.</i>

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- Jonathan, welcome to Take Two.
- Thanks for having me, A.

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Alright. So, what are some of the common
misconceptions we have about fish?

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That they're primitive. They're,
in fact, highly evolved,

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they've been around
for 450 million years,

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which is about 450 times
as long as we've been around.

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It's often thought that
animals are just instinctual.

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I... I think the best response
to that is to show

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that they're not, is the flexibility
of animal behavior,

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the fact that they will behave differently
in different settings,

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the fact that they may have,
uh, may be in a certain state,

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they may be hungry or in pain,

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and it will change
the way they'll behave

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in an otherwise
the same situation.

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The problem with thinking
that it's all instinct

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is it's sort of a way
to diminish the animal

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as just a stimulus
response machine.

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Given that fishes have
not just minds

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but also emotions,
we know they have experiences.

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Uh, they can experience pain,
they can experience pleasure.

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They have wants, needs, desires.

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They have feelings,
they're individuals.

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This is something
that scientists

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had not really been
giving much thought to

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because we've had such
a dim view of these creatures.

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One of the challenges of any
aspect of studying the inner life,

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the conscious world
of another species,

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is they're not just going
to tell you how they're feeling,

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so we kind of have
to be creative

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and observant and surmise.

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People who live near a reef,

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who get in the water on a regular basis,
will tell you

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they can see a fish and then see them again
and then see them again,

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and the same thing happens

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as if you see
the same person at the mall.

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Uh, recognition, familiarity,
friendship.

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And I was out there
once with my dive buddy,

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and I did
a double take to my side

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because there was somebody
who was coming up. And I looked,

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and it was
a yellow-margin moray, you know.

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Got a picture.
He was schooling up with us.

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We saw him several more times.

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I nicknamed him Kukla.

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He was a little long
in the tooth,

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didn't have all his teeth.

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And I estimate Kukla
at about 27, 28 years old.

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Just the easiest going guy.

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I could be swimming along
and Kukla would come out,

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and every time I'd come up
for another close up,

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and he, he likes it,
he gives me poses.

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He's... he's just
a wonderful friend.

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Many fish,
such as butterflyfish,

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live on a coral patch
that is, you know,

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more or less the size of a room.

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A male and a female will bond.

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They maintain the coral,

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they actually go around together
and work together

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00:13:11.154 --> 00:13:14.452
to just pick off the algae
that's growing on the coral,

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and then they eat
the little coral polyps and,

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00:13:17.193 --> 00:13:18.423
you know, that's their home.

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And they will mate for life.

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The natural lifespan of fish
can be years or even decades.

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But unfortunately, the sad fact
is that in captivity,

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some fish live
only a few days or a few weeks.

213
00:13:51.524 --> 00:13:55.097
<i>Your initial question was what's
the condition of reefs worldwide?</i>

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00:13:55.132 --> 00:13:57.869
<i>And there's so many layers
and so many connections</i>

215
00:13:57.904 --> 00:14:01.103
<i>that it's hard to tell where
one stops and the next starts.</i>

216
00:14:02.073 --> 00:14:05.371
<i>In Third World countries,
the trade makes a case</i>

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00:14:05.406 --> 00:14:08.176
<i>that they're providing
livelihood for people</i>

218
00:14:08.211 --> 00:14:10.607
<i>who wouldn't be able
to make money in any other way.</i>

219
00:14:12.050 --> 00:14:14.248
<i>In a world famous reef area</i>

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<i>known for ornate, intricate
little critters,</i>

221
00:14:17.484 --> 00:14:20.353
<i>they still use cyanide.</i>

222
00:14:20.388 --> 00:14:23.356
<i>Cyanide is highly toxic.</i>

223
00:14:23.391 --> 00:14:27.624
<i>This is a chemical
that stops oxygen</i>

224
00:14:27.659 --> 00:14:30.264
<i>from being able
to reach the brain.</i>

225
00:14:33.005 --> 00:14:36.633
<i>They swim down
with an ounce vial of cyanide,</i>

226
00:14:36.668 --> 00:14:40.208
<i>open the vial,
and it'll stun the fish.</i>

227
00:14:44.013 --> 00:14:46.973
<i>They can't tell if they're dead or not,
they put them all in a bucket.</i>

228
00:14:47.382 --> 00:14:49.052
<i>The ones that come to,</i>

229
00:14:49.087 --> 00:14:50.691
<i>get shipped out
for the aquarium trade.</i>

230
00:14:52.486 --> 00:14:55.355
<i>The ones that don't
come to, go back over.</i>

231
00:14:56.721 --> 00:15:00.228
We estimate that probably 90%,

232
00:15:00.263 --> 00:15:04.397
and that's a lot,
90% of the wild caught fish

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00:15:04.432 --> 00:15:06.663
that are imported to the US

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were caught with cyanide.

235
00:15:09.206 --> 00:15:11.536
Cyanide is killing the animals,

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00:15:11.571 --> 00:15:13.307
also killing the reef.

237
00:15:13.342 --> 00:15:15.408
So then, that's home,
that's where they procreate,

238
00:15:15.443 --> 00:15:16.706
that's where they feed.

239
00:15:16.741 --> 00:15:18.950
So, once you've
killed the coral,

240
00:15:18.985 --> 00:15:21.315
you've killed
the entire ecosystem

241
00:15:21.350 --> 00:15:22.481
that depends on the coral.

242
00:15:23.750 --> 00:15:26.056
<i>They use dynamite
to the same effect.</i>

243
00:15:26.091 --> 00:15:28.190
<i>-They'll drop a blasting cap on a reef...</i>

244
00:15:28.225 --> 00:15:31.523
<i>it'll explode,
obviously it blows up the reef.</i>

245
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:34.427
<i>It kills many fish.</i>

246
00:15:34.462 --> 00:15:37.298
<i>Uh, many fish don't die,
they're just stunned.</i>

247
00:15:37.333 --> 00:15:39.971
<i>What are the long term
effects of this?</i>

248
00:15:40.006 --> 00:15:43.535
<i>-As violent as dynamite is...</i>

249
00:15:43.570 --> 00:15:44.701
<i>cyanide is worse.</i>

250
00:15:46.037 --> 00:15:50.344
<i>Cyanide, if it doesn't kill,
causes liver function compromise</i>

251
00:15:50.379 --> 00:15:53.149
<i>in both person or fish.</i>

252
00:15:53.184 --> 00:15:56.581
<i>Most collectors in those areas</i>

253
00:15:56.616 --> 00:15:58.649
<i>that use cyanide
have yellow eyes,</i>

254
00:15:58.684 --> 00:15:59.991
<i>they're jaundiced.</i>

255
00:16:44.367 --> 00:16:46.532
<i>How bad is the state of Hawaii?</i>

256
00:16:46.567 --> 00:16:48.435
<i>As a steward,</i>

257
00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:52.703
<i>Hawaii does not allow
cyanide or dynamite.</i>

258
00:16:52.738 --> 00:16:54.342
<i>The aquarium collectors,</i>

259
00:16:54.377 --> 00:16:57.609
<i>they use what are called
tickle sticks.</i>

260
00:16:57.644 --> 00:17:00.744
In our swimming out there, we
started seeing aquarium collectors,

261
00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:02.427
we thought, "What's wrong
with this picture?"

262
00:17:02.451 --> 00:17:04.682
You know, seeing
how they do their job.

263
00:17:05.850 --> 00:17:07.784
<i>They'd come
into the finger coral,</i>

264
00:17:07.819 --> 00:17:10.721
<i>it is primary habitat
for several species,</i>

265
00:17:10.756 --> 00:17:12.690
<i>including the yellow tang.</i>

266
00:17:12.725 --> 00:17:15.264
<i>They use
a billy club or a stick,</i>

267
00:17:15.299 --> 00:17:17.398
<i>and they tap it or smash it,</i>

268
00:17:17.433 --> 00:17:19.268
<i>herding all the fish
into a big net.</i>

269
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.205
So I took some pictures of it.

270
00:17:24.308 --> 00:17:25.604
<i>Paul risked his life</i>

271
00:17:25.639 --> 00:17:27.474
<i>to go out and take pictures</i>

272
00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:30.081
<i>of the people who are
destroying our reefs</i>

273
00:17:30.116 --> 00:17:31.610
<i>and collecting aquarium fish.</i>

274
00:17:34.813 --> 00:17:36.483
I wasn't bashful, I would wait

275
00:17:36.518 --> 00:17:38.617
for the aquarium poachers
to come up and say,

276
00:17:38.652 --> 00:17:41.587
"Hey, I had a camera and I... I think
you might be breaking the law."

277
00:17:41.622 --> 00:17:43.534
I just kept doing that,
and some of the collectors

278
00:17:43.558 --> 00:17:45.723
quit coming into the bay,
some didn't.

279
00:17:46.693 --> 00:17:49.133
Then, they reach into that net

280
00:17:49.861 --> 00:17:53.203
and grasp the fish by hand.

281
00:17:53.238 --> 00:17:55.304
That's traumatic.

282
00:17:55.339 --> 00:17:59.473
On real exotic fish
from greater depths,

283
00:18:00.410 --> 00:18:02.542
they take a hypodermic syringe.

284
00:18:02.577 --> 00:18:06.117
<i>Instead of raising them
slowly to the surface,</i>

285
00:18:06.152 --> 00:18:09.153
<i>they bring them up quickly,
because they're anxious</i>

286
00:18:09.188 --> 00:18:12.189
<i>to get the fish
to market before they die.</i>

287
00:18:12.224 --> 00:18:13.718
<i>And they use a needle</i>

288
00:18:13.753 --> 00:18:16.853
<i>to puncture the animals'
swim bladder.</i>

289
00:18:16.888 --> 00:18:19.658
Getting rid
of the air inside them.

290
00:18:20.760 --> 00:18:22.870
And I don't need to tell you
but I will, it's traumatic.

291
00:18:22.894 --> 00:18:25.334
Once they get the fish
up to the boat,

292
00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:27.831
they may... there may be
spines on the fish,

293
00:18:27.866 --> 00:18:32.143
and they will actually
trim those spines using,

294
00:18:32.178 --> 00:18:34.145
you know, scissors
and this sort of thing,

295
00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:37.412
which really is like
cutting off someone's finger.

296
00:18:37.447 --> 00:18:39.447
And why do they do that?
Because they're sharp,

297
00:18:39.482 --> 00:18:41.548
and they want to put them
in a plastic bag,

298
00:18:41.583 --> 00:18:43.550
and if it puncture
that plastic bag

299
00:18:43.585 --> 00:18:45.321
with its dorsal spikes,

300
00:18:45.356 --> 00:18:46.894
he dies and they
don't get their money.

301
00:18:46.918 --> 00:18:50.458
And then what?
Out in the open air,

302
00:18:50.493 --> 00:18:51.855
it can't breathe.

303
00:18:51.890 --> 00:18:54.759
Fish need to be in water
in order to breathe.

304
00:18:54.794 --> 00:18:58.367
Can you imagine
the level of stress?

305
00:18:58.402 --> 00:19:00.732
Then they put the fish
in the cooler, trauma,

306
00:19:01.867 --> 00:19:04.505
for the bumpy ride,
trauma, back to the dock,

307
00:19:04.540 --> 00:19:06.705
then into a truck, trauma.

308
00:19:06.740 --> 00:19:09.576
They ship the fish
in a small bag of water,

309
00:19:10.579 --> 00:19:14.482
and if the fish goes
shee-shee or number two,

310
00:19:14.517 --> 00:19:15.879
it fouls the water,

311
00:19:15.914 --> 00:19:18.552
and a much greater chance
of the fish dying.

312
00:19:18.587 --> 00:19:22.358
If they starve them, then it's
less chance of that happening.

313
00:19:23.295 --> 00:19:25.306
You can actually see
these yellow tangs shipping out,

314
00:19:25.330 --> 00:19:26.725
and their ribs are sticking out.

315
00:19:30.401 --> 00:19:32.566
The campaign to ban
the aquarium trade

316
00:19:32.601 --> 00:19:36.273
succeeded when the 2010
Maui County Council

317
00:19:36.308 --> 00:19:37.835
banned animal cruelty.

318
00:19:39.971 --> 00:19:44.413
The collectors and dealers
left Maui for Kona

319
00:19:44.448 --> 00:19:47.845
for a life of unencumbered
reef exploitation.

320
00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:56.887
When I was younger,
what I did have was two fish.

321
00:19:56.922 --> 00:20:00.825
And, um, I had one fish
initially who we called "Fish,"

322
00:20:00.860 --> 00:20:03.465
and another fish
who we called "Chips."

323
00:20:04.600 --> 00:20:06.369
In our case, we didn't know

324
00:20:06.404 --> 00:20:08.866
the types of water treatment
that the fish required,

325
00:20:08.901 --> 00:20:12.408
didn't know, um, that
overfeeding them can kill them,

326
00:20:12.443 --> 00:20:14.542
didn't know that different
toxins can kill them.

327
00:20:14.577 --> 00:20:17.776
And so, like a lot of people,
we were vastly underprepared,

328
00:20:17.811 --> 00:20:20.416
and so the fish ultimately died

329
00:20:20.451 --> 00:20:24.013
as a result of, um,
our lack of basic understanding

330
00:20:24.048 --> 00:20:25.916
of what fish need to survive.

331
00:20:25.951 --> 00:20:28.952
I was always into fish
when I was a kid.

332
00:20:28.987 --> 00:20:31.295
Started off with, uh,
just a fish bowl

333
00:20:31.330 --> 00:20:32.758
that I was breeding guppies in,

334
00:20:32.793 --> 00:20:34.727
and then I moved up
to a bigger tank.

335
00:20:34.762 --> 00:20:39.699
I've worked in private, like,
aquarium maintenance companies.

336
00:20:39.734 --> 00:20:43.307
I've seen accidents
from general negligence.

337
00:20:43.342 --> 00:20:45.969
Every fish
in the entire system was dead.

338
00:20:46.004 --> 00:20:49.379
Well, that was
easily 100, 150 fish.

339
00:20:49.414 --> 00:20:52.613
You get people that have tanks
on a big, huge wall that,

340
00:20:52.648 --> 00:20:55.286
you know, they want it to be
pretty, they want the live reefs,

341
00:20:55.321 --> 00:20:58.619
and they want certain colors
as opposed to even a species.

342
00:20:58.654 --> 00:21:00.434
They just say,
"Well, I want a blue and a red

343
00:21:00.458 --> 00:21:02.524
and an orange fish."

344
00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:06.429
Never mind those fish
wouldn't actually be found

345
00:21:06.464 --> 00:21:08.596
anywhere near
each other on a reef.

346
00:21:08.631 --> 00:21:10.961
And they're probably going
to end up killing each other,

347
00:21:10.996 --> 00:21:14.668
hurting each other, or not being
able to live in that community.

348
00:21:14.703 --> 00:21:17.407
And they just... end up dying,

349
00:21:17.442 --> 00:21:18.474
and they buy more.

350
00:21:19.777 --> 00:21:22.379
We've been keeping fishes
in tanks for a long time.

351
00:21:24.042 --> 00:21:26.680
And it presents some quandaries.

352
00:21:28.486 --> 00:21:29.760
On the one hand,
it's a great way

353
00:21:29.784 --> 00:21:31.685
to look at them up close

354
00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:33.840
and see the beauty of them,
see how they move around.

355
00:21:36.758 --> 00:21:39.825
You can see aspects
of their behavior

356
00:21:39.860 --> 00:21:42.696
and learn things from them
by watching them in captivity.

357
00:21:42.731 --> 00:21:45.435
But there is that side of it,
the captivity aspect.

358
00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:47.734
The fact is you are taking away

359
00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:49.967
perhaps their most
precious possession,

360
00:21:50.002 --> 00:21:51.100
which is their freedom.

361
00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:58.382
A recent PETA investigation
of a national pet store chain

362
00:21:58.417 --> 00:22:00.813
uncovered egregious
cruelty to animals.

363
00:22:00.848 --> 00:22:05.356
We found that dozens of fish
per day were dead on arrival.

364
00:22:05.391 --> 00:22:09.525
I think pet stores
see fish and other animals

365
00:22:09.560 --> 00:22:12.858
as mere commodities
who they mass produce

366
00:22:12.893 --> 00:22:15.597
in order to sell
and turn a profit.

367
00:22:15.632 --> 00:22:17.500
Any time you receive
an order of fish

368
00:22:17.535 --> 00:22:19.469
while working
at a fish store, pet store,

369
00:22:19.504 --> 00:22:21.471
it's not uncommon at all

370
00:22:21.506 --> 00:22:23.572
for there to be dead fish
in that shipment.

371
00:22:31.483 --> 00:22:33.780
<i>So, they skim the surf
on Waikiki Beach.</i>

372
00:22:33.815 --> 00:22:36.750
<i>Our cameraman is running
alongside in a canoe.</i>

373
00:22:36.785 --> 00:22:39.265
<i>In Hawaii, the moon hangs so low
that lovers lean against it.</i>

374
00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:42.690
Aquarium collection
began in Hawaii

375
00:22:42.725 --> 00:22:45.693
when the jets could start
coming, and it was like 1970.

376
00:22:46.828 --> 00:22:48.399
So collection started early

377
00:22:48.434 --> 00:22:50.027
and mostly on Oahu.

378
00:22:50.062 --> 00:22:53.162
There was already
people feeling, a long time ago,

379
00:22:53.197 --> 00:22:56.869
"This might not be okay," sort of
from an ethical-moral foundation,

380
00:22:56.904 --> 00:22:58.871
not... no science data
on how much,

381
00:22:58.906 --> 00:23:00.620
what would be sustainable
harvest or anything.

382
00:23:00.644 --> 00:23:02.446
And many people over the years

383
00:23:02.481 --> 00:23:05.042
have been asking the state
to do that environmental review,

384
00:23:05.077 --> 00:23:08.386
in addition to phasing out
or ending the industry.

385
00:23:09.785 --> 00:23:11.059
<i>They've never
basically assessed,</i>

386
00:23:11.083 --> 00:23:13.083
<i>"Is there an effect on the reef?</i>

387
00:23:13.118 --> 00:23:15.855
<i>Is there an effect
on the fish populations?"</i>

388
00:23:15.890 --> 00:23:18.154
<i>At that point,
people who were thinking,</i>

389
00:23:18.189 --> 00:23:20.761
<i>"We need to look into this,"
sued the state.</i>

390
00:23:22.193 --> 00:23:24.666
<i>So the environmental review part</i>

391
00:23:24.701 --> 00:23:26.635
<i>ended up being
litigated in court.</i>

392
00:23:35.811 --> 00:23:36.811
Okay.

393
00:23:39.045 --> 00:23:40.045
Alrighty.

394
00:23:40.915 --> 00:23:42.882
My name was given from my dad

395
00:23:42.917 --> 00:23:45.654
after one of his favorite
grandfathers,

396
00:23:45.689 --> 00:23:47.216
who was named Kaimi.

397
00:23:47.251 --> 00:23:50.692
And it's a family name
and the name means "seeker."

398
00:23:50.727 --> 00:23:53.992
I'm a fifth generation
native Hawaiian.

399
00:23:54.027 --> 00:23:56.093
I've been a plaintiff
with my dad

400
00:23:56.128 --> 00:23:59.668
in regards to, uh, lawsuit.

401
00:23:59.703 --> 00:24:02.638
Families and different
organizations are suing

402
00:24:02.673 --> 00:24:04.607
the Department of Land
and Natural Resources

403
00:24:04.642 --> 00:24:06.136
to stop, um,

404
00:24:06.171 --> 00:24:09.007
aquarium fish collection
in the state of Hawaii.

405
00:24:11.242 --> 00:24:14.848
I was asked to do
some research for a lawsuit.

406
00:24:14.883 --> 00:24:18.852
One, is it possible
that the f... these fish

407
00:24:18.887 --> 00:24:20.854
are important to the coral reef?

408
00:24:20.889 --> 00:24:23.120
And two, that
they've been diminished

409
00:24:23.155 --> 00:24:26.189
by removing aquarium fish?

410
00:24:26.224 --> 00:24:27.806
And it took many,
many years, you know,

411
00:24:27.830 --> 00:24:29.962
went all the way
up through the court.

412
00:24:29.997 --> 00:24:33.801
It was easy to show that it's highly
likely that it could impact the reef.

413
00:24:34.903 --> 00:24:37.574
There was also a subtle side
message, it's kind of scary

414
00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:40.874
but I think really important.
We make this assumption,

415
00:24:40.909 --> 00:24:42.513
as people and scientists,

416
00:24:42.548 --> 00:24:44.680
that because
organisms reproduce,

417
00:24:44.715 --> 00:24:47.749
if their numbers get really low,
we can bring them back.

418
00:24:47.784 --> 00:24:50.213
If we stop doing whatever we're
doing, they will come back.

419
00:24:50.248 --> 00:24:52.556
But that doesn't always
turn out to be the case,

420
00:24:52.591 --> 00:24:54.822
because if we let
this go too far,

421
00:24:54.857 --> 00:24:57.187
it's possible that
they will not come back.

422
00:25:04.064 --> 00:25:08.638
<i>This is Mind Over Matters
on KEXP Seattle 90.3 FM.</i>

423
00:25:08.673 --> 00:25:11.168
<i>My guest this morning
is Robert Wintner.</i>

424
00:25:11.203 --> 00:25:13.775
<i>What is the importance
of ocean reefs?</i>

425
00:25:14.745 --> 00:25:18.912
<i>It's one of the great mysteries
and treasures of planet Earth.</i>

426
00:25:19.915 --> 00:25:22.982
<i>90% of all creatures
in the ocean</i>

427
00:25:23.017 --> 00:25:26.216
<i>spend their infancy on a reef,</i>

428
00:25:26.251 --> 00:25:28.658
<i>where they have plenty of cover.</i>

429
00:25:28.693 --> 00:25:31.254
<i>Reefs are in peril
all over the world.</i>

430
00:25:31.289 --> 00:25:36.831
<i>We have seen reefs in French
Polynesia vanish in 15 months,</i>

431
00:25:36.866 --> 00:25:38.195
<i>turned to rubble and sand.</i>

432
00:25:40.936 --> 00:25:45.268
<i>There's balance
between habitat and species,</i>

433
00:25:46.172 --> 00:25:49.074
<i>and to pull the fish,</i>

434
00:25:49.109 --> 00:25:52.946
<i>these beautiful, bright
colored fish off the reefs</i>

435
00:25:52.981 --> 00:25:57.214
<i>by the millions
for an amusement industry</i>

436
00:25:57.249 --> 00:26:00.316
<i>is obscene, immoral,
and should stop.</i>

437
00:26:00.351 --> 00:26:04.628
<i>It should be illegal, and that's what we're
in the process of seeking.</i>

438
00:26:11.131 --> 00:26:13.901
<i>Pono</i> is who you're with.
Are you with God?

439
00:26:13.936 --> 00:26:16.167
Are you with the ocean? Yeah?

440
00:26:16.202 --> 00:26:17.202
You make<i> pono.</i>

441
00:26:18.404 --> 00:26:21.678
We get a... we get fish gods
out there checking you out.

442
00:26:21.713 --> 00:26:23.845
So you don't go out there
and<i> hana 'ino,</i>

443
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:25.242
you know, make wrong.

444
00:26:26.212 --> 00:26:27.376
<i>Malama.</i>

445
00:26:27.411 --> 00:26:29.719
That's the key, take care.

446
00:26:32.185 --> 00:26:36.055
Whilst, to some extent, humans,
as the caretakers of the planet

447
00:26:36.090 --> 00:26:39.795
and the planet's most intrepid
travelers and explorers,

448
00:26:39.830 --> 00:26:43.865
uh, we have an interest in saving the seas
for our own benefit.

449
00:26:43.900 --> 00:26:45.900
I think it's much
more important,

450
00:26:45.935 --> 00:26:48.936
uh, for the millions
of species whose lives

451
00:26:48.971 --> 00:26:50.905
and existence
very much depend on it.

452
00:26:53.074 --> 00:26:54.777
To humans, it's the sea,

453
00:26:54.812 --> 00:26:57.879
but to marine life,
it's where they live.

454
00:26:59.949 --> 00:27:02.213
Coral reefs are like rainforest,

455
00:27:02.248 --> 00:27:04.347
because they have
high abundance of life

456
00:27:04.382 --> 00:27:06.987
and high biodiversity.

457
00:27:07.022 --> 00:27:09.154
Are the fish important
to the reef?

458
00:27:09.189 --> 00:27:12.828
Surely, and the reef
is important to the fish.

459
00:27:12.863 --> 00:27:16.128
71% of the earth is
presently covered with ocean.

460
00:27:18.737 --> 00:27:21.364
Carbon dioxide is
absorbed by algae

461
00:27:21.399 --> 00:27:23.036
that live inside the coral.

462
00:27:23.071 --> 00:27:26.336
When they make sugar,
they also produce oxygen.

463
00:27:26.371 --> 00:27:28.239
And since the ocean is so vast,

464
00:27:28.274 --> 00:27:31.011
they're creating the huge
percentage of the oxygen.

465
00:27:32.982 --> 00:27:35.356
A lot of the fish that are collected
for the aquarium trade

466
00:27:35.380 --> 00:27:36.786
eat those algae.

467
00:27:37.756 --> 00:27:39.316
We can think of them
as lawn mowers.

468
00:27:39.351 --> 00:27:42.660
They're like little
salad eaters all day long.

469
00:27:43.993 --> 00:27:46.224
By eating algae,
the fish prevent it

470
00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:49.733
from growing all over the coral
and blocking the sunlight.

471
00:27:50.934 --> 00:27:53.132
If the fish aren't there,

472
00:27:53.167 --> 00:27:57.103
then the coral will die.

473
00:27:57.138 --> 00:27:59.974
This leads to a loss
of biodiversity,

474
00:28:00.009 --> 00:28:02.174
and new coral cannot settle.

475
00:28:02.209 --> 00:28:06.079
So we basically have lost
the coral reef ecosystem.

476
00:28:07.852 --> 00:28:12.888
<i>One of the greatest problems
faced by coral reef fish</i>

477
00:28:12.923 --> 00:28:16.287
<i>is that the corals are becoming
increasingly stressed.</i>

478
00:28:30.809 --> 00:28:33.909
<i>These problems
don't exist independently</i>

479
00:28:33.944 --> 00:28:36.879
<i>in their own vacuum,
they're additive.</i>

480
00:28:36.914 --> 00:28:42.445
<i>If we have coral bleaching and we have
over collection for the aquarium trade,</i>

481
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:46.053
<i>and they are working
to create havoc,</i>

482
00:28:46.088 --> 00:28:47.989
<i>that is extremely problematic.</i>

483
00:28:51.225 --> 00:28:55.260
<i>Coral is also valued by humans.</i>

484
00:28:55.295 --> 00:28:58.329
<i>Adventurers risk their lives
diving to great depths</i>

485
00:28:58.364 --> 00:29:01.200
<i>for coral off the shores
of Maui.</i>

486
00:29:01.235 --> 00:29:03.466
<i>Maui is one of the few
places in the world</i>

487
00:29:03.501 --> 00:29:05.468
<i>where black coral is found,</i>

488
00:29:05.503 --> 00:29:08.009
<i>and it comes glistening
up from the depths</i>

489
00:29:08.044 --> 00:29:10.979
<i>like a gnarled freak
miniature tree.</i>

490
00:29:11.014 --> 00:29:13.278
<i>But so firmly rooted is it
that it has to be hacked</i>

491
00:29:13.313 --> 00:29:16.050
<i>from the seabed,
sometimes with a sword.</i>

492
00:29:16.085 --> 00:29:19.449
<i>This is death, yet paradoxically,
it resembles living beauty,</i>

493
00:29:19.484 --> 00:29:22.254
<i>for soon it will be made
into delicate jewelry</i>

494
00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:24.289
<i>for discerning women
the world over.</i>

495
00:29:29.560 --> 00:29:32.231
<i>So when you see
coral jewelry, think,</i>

496
00:29:32.266 --> 00:29:33.804
<i>"Where did that come from?"</i>

497
00:29:38.371 --> 00:29:40.239
<i>The coral that
is used in jewelry</i>

498
00:29:40.274 --> 00:29:42.945
<i>is principally deep water coral.</i>

499
00:29:43.849 --> 00:29:47.411
<i>And it is in nature
even extremely rare.</i>

500
00:29:47.446 --> 00:29:51.085
<i>And people value it
because of that rarity.</i>

501
00:29:56.620 --> 00:29:58.323
The reefs are challenged.

502
00:29:59.931 --> 00:30:02.866
This very valuable place,
the coral reef,

503
00:30:02.901 --> 00:30:05.033
is valuable for its food fish,

504
00:30:05.068 --> 00:30:09.103
for its beauty,
protection from storms,

505
00:30:09.138 --> 00:30:14.075
its spiritual value,
for its ecotourism value.

506
00:30:14.110 --> 00:30:16.539
The reef is part
of the reason people come here.

507
00:30:18.015 --> 00:30:21.379
<i>Reef based tourism generates</i>

508
00:30:21.414 --> 00:30:25.053
<i>800 million dollars
a year in Hawaii.</i>

509
00:30:39.465 --> 00:30:42.598
<i>We have, um, protected bay...</i>

510
00:30:42.633 --> 00:30:43.874
<i>Hanauma Bay.</i>

511
00:30:45.075 --> 00:30:47.174
<i>It shows that sharp contrast</i>

512
00:30:47.209 --> 00:30:50.078
<i>between what happens
when you protect an area</i>

513
00:30:50.113 --> 00:30:53.246
<i>and when you let
full scale extraction occur.</i>

514
00:30:55.151 --> 00:30:59.054
Aquarium fish removal
is a form of exploitation.

515
00:30:59.089 --> 00:31:01.287
I see tourists come
and they go in the water,

516
00:31:01.322 --> 00:31:05.654
and if I'm in the places that I swim
that I know are degraded reefs,

517
00:31:05.689 --> 00:31:09.328
it makes me sad because I feel like
they're not going to get to see

518
00:31:09.363 --> 00:31:12.133
what really they were imagining.

519
00:31:42.561 --> 00:31:44.462
In my limited
scientific knowledge,

520
00:31:44.497 --> 00:31:46.673
I always figured that the bigger
the fish, the bigger the brain,

521
00:31:46.697 --> 00:31:50.072
which means a fish like, say, a
shark, that's why they're so amazing,

522
00:31:50.107 --> 00:31:51.986
they hunt in packs, they know
exactly what they're doing.

523
00:31:52.010 --> 00:31:55.374
So a fish, like, say, a minnow,
it has intellectual depth?

524
00:31:55.409 --> 00:31:57.211
Sure. Take the frillfin goby,

525
00:31:57.246 --> 00:31:59.444
they live in the intertidal
zones, so they...

526
00:31:59.479 --> 00:32:02.579
They can hop around
between tide pools at low tide.

527
00:32:02.614 --> 00:32:05.021
They memorize the topography

528
00:32:05.056 --> 00:32:07.056
of this tide pool zone
at high tide,

529
00:32:07.091 --> 00:32:10.719
so they can translate
that aerial view at high tide

530
00:32:10.754 --> 00:32:13.062
into a horizontal view
at low tide.

531
00:32:13.097 --> 00:32:15.691
It's what's called
mental mapping.

532
00:32:15.726 --> 00:32:17.528
And they can remember it
40 days later.

533
00:32:17.563 --> 00:32:19.332
And it's a very
small fish with probably

534
00:32:19.367 --> 00:32:20.432
quite a small brain.

535
00:32:21.568 --> 00:32:24.403
They have not just biology
but they have biographies.

536
00:32:24.438 --> 00:32:26.372
They're unique, each one.

537
00:32:28.211 --> 00:32:30.013
The more
I've learned about fish,

538
00:32:30.048 --> 00:32:33.247
the more I've learned just
how really amazing they are.

539
00:32:33.282 --> 00:32:37.185
The cognitive abilities of fish
in many ways match or exceed

540
00:32:37.220 --> 00:32:39.649
those of so called higher
order vertebrates,

541
00:32:39.684 --> 00:32:42.223
even some non-human primates.

542
00:32:42.258 --> 00:32:44.357
There's individual
personalities.

543
00:32:44.392 --> 00:32:46.524
I've seen fish that will let you

544
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.625
pet them like a dog
and feed them by hand,

545
00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:50.594
and everything
that they're doing

546
00:32:50.629 --> 00:32:53.036
and every behavior
they're exhibiting

547
00:32:53.071 --> 00:32:54.708
would make you think
that they're loving you

548
00:32:54.732 --> 00:32:56.369
and bonding with you
like a dog would.

549
00:33:00.738 --> 00:33:04.311
In Hawaii, we've had campaigns

550
00:33:04.346 --> 00:33:06.478
in the three areas
of government,

551
00:33:06.513 --> 00:33:10.152
executive,
legislative and judicial,

552
00:33:10.187 --> 00:33:13.749
and in every, uh,
segment of the campaign,

553
00:33:13.784 --> 00:33:16.686
the aquarium trade
want to shout us down,

554
00:33:16.721 --> 00:33:18.105
and they say,
"It's not true, it's not true.

555
00:33:18.129 --> 00:33:19.392
This is not devastating."

556
00:33:19.427 --> 00:33:21.130
And so I refer to this crowd

557
00:33:21.165 --> 00:33:23.396
as the torch
and pitchfork crowd.

558
00:33:23.431 --> 00:33:26.102
We see the aquarium trade,
pardon me, as bad guys,

559
00:33:26.137 --> 00:33:27.631
and... and we want to stop them.

560
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:39.148
<i>No more starvation,
no more fin cutting.</i>

561
00:33:39.183 --> 00:33:41.678
<i>No more hypodermic
puncture is allowed.</i>

562
00:33:44.287 --> 00:33:47.486
And the president
of the Kona Aquarium Association

563
00:33:47.521 --> 00:33:49.191
in a public hearing said,

564
00:33:49.226 --> 00:33:52.062
"Snorkel Bob," that's me,

565
00:33:52.097 --> 00:33:55.065
"is an ecoterrorist."
And when I saw that, I laughed,

566
00:33:55.100 --> 00:33:57.760
because I have sent
some incendiary emails.

567
00:33:57.795 --> 00:34:00.070
But ecoterrorist seems
a bit of a stretch.

568
00:34:01.469 --> 00:34:05.339
Bill 318 asks the basic
business questions.

569
00:34:05.374 --> 00:34:08.474
Who owns the reef wildlife
on Big Island reefs?

570
00:34:08.509 --> 00:34:12.478
Is it really inventory?
Is that inventory unlimited?

571
00:34:12.513 --> 00:34:17.153
The Snorkel Bob Foundation cannot
campaign politically in an election.

572
00:34:17.188 --> 00:34:20.519
We also can't be involved
in any political lobbying.

573
00:34:20.554 --> 00:34:24.094
When I lobby, most of the time,
I lobby as an individual.

574
00:34:24.129 --> 00:34:26.228
The aquarium trade has no data

575
00:34:26.263 --> 00:34:29.396
on environmental impact
or Hawaiian cultural impact.

576
00:34:29.431 --> 00:34:31.728
For these reasons and many more,
this county council

577
00:34:31.763 --> 00:34:34.335
urged the governor
and legislature last year...

578
00:34:34.370 --> 00:34:36.480
- I'll have to ask you... -...to
ban the aquarium trade statewide.

579
00:34:36.504 --> 00:34:38.834
I trust this council will be
consistent in its values

580
00:34:38.869 --> 00:34:41.606
and economic assessment,
passing Bill 318.

581
00:34:41.641 --> 00:34:43.542
- Sorry for the overtime.
- Okay, thank you.

582
00:34:43.577 --> 00:34:45.313
This is a contact sport.

583
00:34:45.348 --> 00:34:46.809
Uh, we think
we're making headway.

584
00:34:46.844 --> 00:34:48.624
There is no greater
gratification in the world

585
00:34:48.648 --> 00:34:51.484
than a win. We think we have
some significant wins

586
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.717
right now, uh, within reach.

587
00:34:53.752 --> 00:34:55.719
And so, we're going
at it every way we can.

588
00:35:31.229 --> 00:35:33.526
<i>The Cuba trip
was a real eye opener.</i>

589
00:35:34.925 --> 00:35:37.431
<i>I'd seen footage</i>
<i>on</i> Jardines de la Reina,

590
00:35:37.466 --> 00:35:39.367
<i>the gardens of the Queen,</i>

591
00:35:39.402 --> 00:35:40.863
<i>and it just looked remarkable.</i>

592
00:35:41.899 --> 00:35:44.339
<i>It's about 1,000 acres...</i>

593
00:35:45.408 --> 00:35:49.806
<i>70 miles south
of the Cuban coast.</i>

594
00:35:49.841 --> 00:35:52.545
<i>Say what you will
about Fidel Castro,</i>

595
00:35:52.580 --> 00:35:55.581
<i>one day he said,
"Stop taking sharks."</i>

596
00:35:55.616 --> 00:35:57.924
<i>When I was there, I said,
"How can you take your sharks?</i>

597
00:35:57.948 --> 00:36:01.191
<i>You're so far from Asia.
That's who wants sharks."</i>

598
00:36:01.226 --> 00:36:03.259
<i>The fella
who ran the resort said,</i>

599
00:36:03.294 --> 00:36:04.934
<i>"Well, sharks were
our protein staple.</i>

600
00:36:05.824 --> 00:36:07.164
<i>We ate them all."</i>

601
00:36:13.238 --> 00:36:17.339
<i>Jardines de la Reina</i> was
gang raped and left for dead.

602
00:36:17.374 --> 00:36:18.571
It was a dead zone.

603
00:36:19.740 --> 00:36:22.509
Within two or three years,
and the ocean is resilient,

604
00:36:22.544 --> 00:36:24.577
this is what gives us hope,

605
00:36:24.612 --> 00:36:27.481
every reef should
have the capacity

606
00:36:27.516 --> 00:36:30.352
to support about 20 sharks.

607
00:36:30.387 --> 00:36:33.685
In a very short time, the sharks came back
to<i> Jardines.</i>

608
00:36:35.689 --> 00:36:37.557
That first dive,

609
00:36:37.592 --> 00:36:39.295
we went out to the site...

610
00:36:40.628 --> 00:36:43.530
and our dive leader,
Miguel, said, "Okay,

611
00:36:43.565 --> 00:36:44.894
this is a very special spot,

612
00:36:44.929 --> 00:36:46.566
not too many sharks."

613
00:36:54.378 --> 00:36:56.576
We're water dogs,
we know the drill.

614
00:36:56.611 --> 00:36:59.612
And we saw a dorsal fin...
Here's the surface, dorsal fin.

615
00:37:01.044 --> 00:37:04.782
The obvious first glance
is sharks everywhere.

616
00:37:08.854 --> 00:37:11.888
Miguel says, "It's okay.
Do not hesitate.

617
00:37:11.923 --> 00:37:15.496
Get in, go down."
It was like...

618
00:37:15.531 --> 00:37:17.465
and we go, "Came that far."

619
00:37:17.500 --> 00:37:21.337
And we roll back
and... and went down.

620
00:37:25.541 --> 00:37:27.508
You descend into a garden

621
00:37:28.511 --> 00:37:33.382
that is so abundant, so diverse.

622
00:37:33.417 --> 00:37:36.715
You forget about the sharks
until they start circling you.

623
00:37:38.983 --> 00:37:42.556
They follow you, it's like
your... your house animals.

624
00:37:43.790 --> 00:37:46.362
An... and I would say,
by day three,

625
00:37:46.397 --> 00:37:48.661
the sharks would come by
and they'd just, you know,

626
00:37:48.696 --> 00:37:51.334
knock a strobe arm
or bump us with a dorsal.

627
00:37:51.369 --> 00:37:52.808
That's a check,
that's what sharks do,

628
00:37:52.832 --> 00:37:53.974
they want to see
if you're still alive

629
00:37:53.998 --> 00:37:55.668
or if you are risk free.

630
00:38:00.708 --> 00:38:04.611
<i>100% host of apex predators.</i>

631
00:38:07.979 --> 00:38:10.485
<i>100% coral cover.</i>

632
00:38:12.522 --> 00:38:15.919
<i>And optimal biodiversity,
as Neptune intended.</i>

633
00:38:24.864 --> 00:38:27.733
<i>Cuba is now in the lead position</i>

634
00:38:27.768 --> 00:38:31.803
<i>on reef rejuvenation
in the world.</i>

635
00:38:34.940 --> 00:38:37.006
<i>No place else on earth has this.</i>

636
00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:35.405
<i>Unfortunately...</i>

637
00:39:36.573 --> 00:39:38.573
<i>they're taking
their sharks again.</i>

638
00:39:38.608 --> 00:39:40.905
<i>China is a close
affiliate with Cuba</i>

639
00:39:40.940 --> 00:39:42.808
<i>and they're demanding sharks,</i>

640
00:39:42.843 --> 00:39:45.679
<i>and Cuba is now
taking sharks again.</i>

641
00:39:45.714 --> 00:39:48.011
<i>This is a nonstop campaign.</i>

642
00:40:05.129 --> 00:40:09.538
<i>Jardines de la Reina</i>
and all the pure reefs of Cuba

643
00:40:09.573 --> 00:40:11.540
have one flaw,

644
00:40:11.575 --> 00:40:12.937
lionfish.

645
00:40:14.974 --> 00:40:17.172
They've come that far south.

646
00:40:20.144 --> 00:40:23.849
<i>Lionfish are
a perfect microcosm.</i>

647
00:40:23.884 --> 00:40:26.687
<i>Uh, the before
and the after that can happen</i>

648
00:40:26.722 --> 00:40:30.119
<i>when you take nature
past the tipping point.</i>

649
00:40:31.628 --> 00:40:33.155
<i>They're so voracious,</i>

650
00:40:33.190 --> 00:40:35.795
<i>they're very difficult
to keep in an aquarium,</i>

651
00:40:35.830 --> 00:40:37.797
<i>and anything else
that's in that aquarium,</i>

652
00:40:37.832 --> 00:40:39.161
<i>the lionfish will gobble up.</i>

653
00:40:40.197 --> 00:40:42.505
<i>And they get pretty big,
they can get up to,</i>

654
00:40:42.540 --> 00:40:44.738
<i>you know, 12, 14 inches.</i>

655
00:40:44.773 --> 00:40:46.971
<i>And because the pet owner
doesn't have the heart</i>

656
00:40:47.006 --> 00:40:48.907
<i>to kill them, they're released.</i>

657
00:40:50.075 --> 00:40:52.581
<i>Where lionfish are natural,</i>

658
00:40:52.616 --> 00:40:55.078
<i>the predators
keep them in balance.</i>

659
00:40:56.114 --> 00:40:59.148
<i>The lionfish did
not swim to the Atlantic...</i>

660
00:41:00.283 --> 00:41:02.987
<i>they didn't go there
voluntarily.</i>

661
00:41:03.022 --> 00:41:05.088
<i>It all comes down
to the greater subject</i>

662
00:41:05.123 --> 00:41:08.564
<i>of wildlife trafficking
for the pet trade.</i>

663
00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:12.469
<i>A lionfish will eat all the fry
of the other species.</i>

664
00:41:13.604 --> 00:41:18.706
<i>And lionfish spread all over
the South Atlantic seaboard.</i>

665
00:41:18.741 --> 00:41:21.203
Lionfish outnumber
all other species

666
00:41:21.238 --> 00:41:22.644
in the Atlantic and Caribbean,

667
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:24.206
they've shown remarkable
adaptation

668
00:41:24.241 --> 00:41:26.813
to depth and temperature range.

669
00:41:26.848 --> 00:41:31.785
It is the biggest marine
catastrophe in the modern era.

670
00:41:31.820 --> 00:41:35.525
What we've seen is
reaction among humans,

671
00:41:35.560 --> 00:41:38.187
where they have now
lionfish rodeos.

672
00:41:38.222 --> 00:41:41.124
And it's a way to vent
their frustration

673
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.962
on a scapegoat species,

674
00:41:43.997 --> 00:41:45.799
the evil lionfish.

675
00:41:49.739 --> 00:41:51.211
And they go out,
and they spear lionfish,

676
00:41:51.235 --> 00:41:52.839
and they weigh them,
and they, "Ha, ha!

677
00:41:52.874 --> 00:41:54.742
We're getting
the nasty little bastards."

678
00:41:59.012 --> 00:42:00.946
As if that's
a solution. It's not.

679
00:42:02.114 --> 00:42:04.213
<i>Trafficking for the pet trade,</i>

680
00:42:04.248 --> 00:42:06.919
<i>it's bad for the source,
uh, habitat,</i>

681
00:42:06.954 --> 00:42:09.185
<i>it's bad
for the destination habitat.</i>

682
00:42:11.024 --> 00:42:12.892
<i>The lionfish
are not at fault here.</i>

683
00:42:12.927 --> 00:42:15.224
<i>Home hobbyists released them</i>

684
00:42:15.259 --> 00:42:17.864
<i>because they didn't want
to flush them.</i>

685
00:42:59.369 --> 00:43:02.876
We are very conscious
of a lot of the land animals

686
00:43:02.911 --> 00:43:04.911
that are endangered in Hawaii,

687
00:43:04.946 --> 00:43:08.244
and what we see
happening on land

688
00:43:08.279 --> 00:43:10.851
is happening underwater as well,

689
00:43:10.886 --> 00:43:13.216
and may be much worse.

690
00:43:13.251 --> 00:43:15.053
When it comes
to what's under the water,

691
00:43:15.088 --> 00:43:17.286
we have allowed
that for 50 years.

692
00:43:17.321 --> 00:43:21.092
It's not seeing, right? Every day
you're not looking into the forest

693
00:43:21.127 --> 00:43:23.061
and seeing the birds.

694
00:43:23.096 --> 00:43:24.832
You have to actually
get in the water

695
00:43:24.867 --> 00:43:25.965
to see what's going on.

696
00:43:29.971 --> 00:43:32.202
Humans don't pay
that much attention

697
00:43:32.237 --> 00:43:33.874
to what happens underwater.

698
00:43:36.010 --> 00:43:39.110
Fish don't scream out loud
the way that mammals do.

699
00:43:56.767 --> 00:44:00.868
We have a very dynamic,
core group,

700
00:44:00.903 --> 00:44:05.334
uh, reef community people
here in Hawaii

701
00:44:05.369 --> 00:44:07.336
who are dedicated from the heart

702
00:44:07.371 --> 00:44:10.812
because they... they hate
what they see happening.

703
00:44:12.145 --> 00:44:13.914
Uh, and they want this to stop.

704
00:44:15.148 --> 00:44:17.115
The thing that turtles have
going for them

705
00:44:17.150 --> 00:44:19.348
is everybody loves the turtles.

706
00:44:20.725 --> 00:44:22.692
People relate to turtles.

707
00:44:22.727 --> 00:44:24.694
I relate to fish, sometimes
I can't understand

708
00:44:24.729 --> 00:44:26.234
why more people don't relate
to fish the way I do.

709
00:44:26.258 --> 00:44:28.698
I think they're so cute.

710
00:44:28.733 --> 00:44:32.427
In Hawaii, turtles are still
legally, federally protected.

711
00:44:35.102 --> 00:44:38.939
Every species of coral in Hawaii

712
00:44:38.974 --> 00:44:41.403
is protected
by state regulation.

713
00:44:41.438 --> 00:44:43.174
It is<i> kapu,</i>

714
00:44:43.209 --> 00:44:45.880
you cannot take
one piece of substrate

715
00:44:45.915 --> 00:44:47.112
from the ocean floor.

716
00:44:48.511 --> 00:44:51.479
For the reef species,

717
00:44:51.514 --> 00:44:53.954
zero protection, zero.

718
00:44:53.989 --> 00:44:57.386
There was just a... a story about
people trying to sell green sand

719
00:44:57.421 --> 00:44:59.861
from Hawaii on eBay,
and it had to be removed,

720
00:44:59.896 --> 00:45:02.325
you cannot sell sand,
you cannot sell rocks,

721
00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:05.427
live rock from the water,
you can't sell coral.

722
00:45:05.462 --> 00:45:08.771
So, there's basically
only one type of organism

723
00:45:08.806 --> 00:45:12.500
that can come off this reef
for sale with no limits,

724
00:45:12.535 --> 00:45:15.404
and that's the small, juvenile,
beautiful aquarium fish.

725
00:45:19.850 --> 00:45:23.280
Fishes have been
literally and figuratively

726
00:45:23.315 --> 00:45:26.019
below the surface of our
thinking and our consciousness.

727
00:45:26.054 --> 00:45:29.121
They live in another realm.
We've been alienated from them,

728
00:45:29.156 --> 00:45:31.992
and I think why we're emerging
from this now, finally,

729
00:45:32.027 --> 00:45:34.170
is that we have the technologies,
we have scuba gear,

730
00:45:34.194 --> 00:45:37.426
we have underwater photography,
and you can watch YouTube videos

731
00:45:37.461 --> 00:45:41.133
of fishes doing stuff that would've been
thought fantasy just a generation ago.

732
00:45:41.168 --> 00:45:43.168
So, because they're not like us,

733
00:45:43.203 --> 00:45:46.039
we don't think that
they're anywhere near us.

734
00:45:46.074 --> 00:45:48.371
That's right,
I think the less human like

735
00:45:48.406 --> 00:45:53.079
a species is, we're going
to be less able to relate.

736
00:45:54.412 --> 00:45:57.314
So what's the science,
then, behind this idea

737
00:45:57.349 --> 00:45:59.217
that fish are more
than just mindless,

738
00:45:59.252 --> 00:46:01.285
uh, swimming/feeding machines?

739
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:03.023
It's a science
that really surprised me,

740
00:46:03.058 --> 00:46:06.125
it was like, "Wow!"
They... they have thoughts,

741
00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:07.995
they plan, they use tools,

742
00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:10.965
they... they play,
they fall for optical illusions.

743
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:14.529
They have sex lives, they have
interesting social lives.

744
00:46:14.564 --> 00:46:17.301
So it's really quite
an explosion of information

745
00:46:17.336 --> 00:46:19.435
that we now have
coming out about fishes.

746
00:46:19.470 --> 00:46:22.086
They are already a lot more interesting
than my daily life, actually,

747
00:46:22.110 --> 00:46:23.516
all the things you
just mentioned, that's...

748
00:46:23.540 --> 00:46:25.474
That's more than I do
in a single day.

749
00:46:25.509 --> 00:46:27.575
So, give us some examples.

750
00:46:27.610 --> 00:46:30.347
These little species of fish
called cleaner wrasses,

751
00:46:30.382 --> 00:46:32.547
they're small,
maybe two, three inches long.

752
00:46:32.582 --> 00:46:35.000
They're attractive, they advertise
they're open for business.

753
00:46:35.024 --> 00:46:37.387
And business is
to remove parasites

754
00:46:37.422 --> 00:46:39.290
from so called client fishes.

755
00:46:39.325 --> 00:46:42.227
More than 100 species will
line up to wait their turn

756
00:46:42.262 --> 00:46:44.493
on the reef to be serviced.

757
00:46:44.528 --> 00:46:47.936
The cleaner fishes
will pluck off sea lice

758
00:46:47.971 --> 00:46:50.268
and other parasites
from their skin.

759
00:46:50.303 --> 00:46:52.281
The cleaners, of course,
get food from doing this,

760
00:46:52.305 --> 00:46:53.876
and they will clean
hundreds a day.

761
00:46:53.911 --> 00:46:56.241
And the clients get
a spa treatment

762
00:46:56.276 --> 00:46:59.376
- and a parasite removal service.

763
00:46:59.411 --> 00:47:02.511
The... the favorite food of cleaners
is actually the mucus layer,

764
00:47:02.546 --> 00:47:04.887
they'll nip off
a little moat of that mucus,

765
00:47:04.922 --> 00:47:06.889
and it causes usually
the client to jolt.

766
00:47:08.189 --> 00:47:10.255
Other clients are watching
these interactions,

767
00:47:10.290 --> 00:47:12.026
and they're forming
long term accounts

768
00:47:12.061 --> 00:47:14.897
of the quality of service
that these cleaners do.

769
00:47:14.932 --> 00:47:16.492
So cleaners will do a better job

770
00:47:16.527 --> 00:47:18.076
if there's more clients
in the queue,

771
00:47:18.100 --> 00:47:20.100
their eBay ratings
are more at stake.

772
00:47:20.135 --> 00:47:21.629
They will do, uh, caresses,

773
00:47:21.664 --> 00:47:24.236
they will rapidly flutter
their pectoral fins

774
00:47:24.271 --> 00:47:26.139
against the bodies
of their clients.

775
00:47:45.424 --> 00:47:49.162
The Big Island has come up
with a pseudo solution

776
00:47:49.197 --> 00:47:52.297
to try and deal with the issue
of aquarium collecting.

777
00:47:52.332 --> 00:47:55.597
And, uh, over the course
of ten years of negotiations,

778
00:47:55.632 --> 00:47:58.303
this group of people
came up with a compromise.

779
00:47:58.338 --> 00:48:01.438
Uh, Hawaii Department
of Land and Natural Resources

780
00:48:01.473 --> 00:48:03.308
came out with a White List.

781
00:48:03.343 --> 00:48:06.245
A White List as... a Black List
is what you can't do,

782
00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:08.082
it's the species you can't take.

783
00:48:08.117 --> 00:48:11.019
A White List is species
that are approved for removal.

784
00:48:12.583 --> 00:48:15.650
<i>Well, it turns out
that the species on the list</i>

785
00:48:15.685 --> 00:48:20.457
<i>represent, I don't know, 99%
of what the trade already takes.</i>

786
00:48:20.492 --> 00:48:23.064
Uh, so the department spent
a lot of time and money,

787
00:48:23.099 --> 00:48:25.594
uh, developing a list of species

788
00:48:25.629 --> 00:48:29.103
the aquarium trade can take.

789
00:48:29.138 --> 00:48:32.502
So this... this White List
that is supposed to, uh,

790
00:48:32.537 --> 00:48:37.210
you know, be this new protective
rule, it is... is bogus, it's a sham.

791
00:48:37.245 --> 00:48:39.509
The Director of Natural
Resources sat down

792
00:48:39.544 --> 00:48:41.412
with a group
of aquarium collectors,

793
00:48:41.447 --> 00:48:44.547
and they compiled
all the species they needed

794
00:48:44.582 --> 00:48:48.518
to maintain 99%
of their revenue stream.

795
00:49:21.322 --> 00:49:23.487
The Abercrombie administration,

796
00:49:23.522 --> 00:49:24.719
they signed the White List.

797
00:49:25.788 --> 00:49:28.492
Bottom line is,
it's not enforceable.

798
00:49:28.527 --> 00:49:31.066
So who knows what's really
going to be leaving our reefs.

799
00:49:32.102 --> 00:49:35.037
Those 40 species will still
be taken in unlimited numbers,

800
00:49:35.072 --> 00:49:36.731
so we're still in trouble.

801
00:49:44.378 --> 00:49:46.741
Among the interviews I did,
the guy said,

802
00:49:46.776 --> 00:49:48.545
"Do fish have souls?"

803
00:49:48.580 --> 00:49:52.516
I said, "Let me
rephrase the question.

804
00:49:52.551 --> 00:49:56.355
Is this fish a friend
of mine? Yes!"

805
00:49:59.756 --> 00:50:02.229
Anita and I went to Tahiti.

806
00:50:02.264 --> 00:50:05.100
We found a...
A longhorn cowfish...

807
00:50:05.135 --> 00:50:07.102
that we nicknamed Cowboy.

808
00:50:07.137 --> 00:50:09.038
We were so excited
when we saw him,

809
00:50:09.073 --> 00:50:11.139
they're named
for their longhorns,

810
00:50:11.174 --> 00:50:14.142
he has a beautiful fantail.
He was extraordinary.

811
00:50:14.177 --> 00:50:16.705
He was in shallow water,
eight to ten feet,

812
00:50:16.740 --> 00:50:19.774
and we visited him probably
two or three times a day.

813
00:50:19.809 --> 00:50:23.250
On each visit,
he just became more engaging.

814
00:50:23.285 --> 00:50:25.417
Uh, and again,
it's an example of,

815
00:50:25.452 --> 00:50:27.023
uh, familiarity and friendship.

816
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:36.065
Okay, now, I promise
this will be my last fish story.

817
00:50:37.266 --> 00:50:39.101
It's a turtle story.

818
00:50:39.136 --> 00:50:41.664
We were over
at Red Hill, Pu'u Ola'i.

819
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:43.567
The current was coming up,

820
00:50:43.602 --> 00:50:46.603
and coming head on was,

821
00:50:46.638 --> 00:50:50.343
uh, a Hawaiian green
sea turtle, or<i> honu.</i>

822
00:50:50.378 --> 00:50:53.775
And I started to veer one way,
and she veered the same way.

823
00:50:53.810 --> 00:50:56.184
I veered the opposite,
she veered the opposite.

824
00:50:56.219 --> 00:50:58.120
And I thought,
"Is this a game of chicken?"

825
00:50:59.123 --> 00:51:02.784
She's a big gal, she was
in the 350, 400 pound range.

826
00:51:02.819 --> 00:51:05.127
And we were coming head on.

827
00:51:06.889 --> 00:51:09.494
We got almost
to the point of contact,

828
00:51:10.398 --> 00:51:12.563
and I sucked it up
and twisted this way,

829
00:51:12.598 --> 00:51:16.369
she twisted that way,
and we passed.

830
00:51:16.404 --> 00:51:19.372
I dropped down only, like,
eight, ten feet to the bottom,

831
00:51:19.407 --> 00:51:21.539
uh, to get a shot
of another fish there.

832
00:51:22.674 --> 00:51:24.476
And I felt this...

833
00:51:25.908 --> 00:51:28.447
on my back, on my tank.

834
00:51:28.482 --> 00:51:30.878
And I was
pretty sure who it was.

835
00:51:30.913 --> 00:51:32.682
And I rolled over...

836
00:51:32.717 --> 00:51:33.717
and there she was.

837
00:51:35.291 --> 00:51:37.522
I'm pretty sure she wanted
to mate.

838
00:51:37.557 --> 00:51:40.756
And I don't say that...
I mean, of course I'm facetious,

839
00:51:40.791 --> 00:51:43.363
but, uh, you know, there are
natural attractions here,

840
00:51:43.398 --> 00:51:46.795
I had the hard shell,
the wrinkly neck.

841
00:51:46.830 --> 00:51:50.832
And it was... she just looked at me
so longingly, and I got the shot.

842
00:51:50.867 --> 00:51:53.340
And it really captures
her essence and her love,

843
00:51:53.375 --> 00:51:55.573
regardless of her motives.
And I love her right back.

844
00:51:55.608 --> 00:51:58.906
And I said, "It's fun to speculate on the,
uh, the offspring,

845
00:51:58.941 --> 00:52:03.317
you know, such wit, such verve,
such flippers."

846
00:52:26.408 --> 00:52:28.540
<i>Everybody making money on this,</i>

847
00:52:28.575 --> 00:52:32.643
<i>everybody walking all over
these reefs to collect fish...</i>

848
00:52:33.844 --> 00:52:36.515
<i>these are people who
would convert nature to money.</i>

849
00:52:42.391 --> 00:52:46.195
We actually had a bill last year
that passed the Legislature

850
00:52:46.230 --> 00:52:48.824
to end the commercial capture

851
00:52:48.859 --> 00:52:51.827
of wildlife
for aquarium purposes.

852
00:52:53.501 --> 00:52:55.270
<i>Welcome, Robert Wintner.</i>

853
00:52:55.305 --> 00:52:57.833
<i>We last had him on this show
in February,</i>

854
00:52:57.868 --> 00:53:01.738
<i>when he told us about
Hawaii's Bill SB1240.</i>

855
00:53:01.773 --> 00:53:05.478
<i>We've urged listeners
to phone or email legislators</i>

856
00:53:05.513 --> 00:53:09.746
<i>and the Governor urging
the passage of this bill.</i>

857
00:53:09.781 --> 00:53:12.617
<i>It's been no walk
in the basil, believe me.</i>

858
00:53:12.652 --> 00:53:15.488
<i>And we've been
at this for 11 years.</i>

859
00:53:15.523 --> 00:53:17.985
<i>When SB1240 started
to gain traction,</i>

860
00:53:18.020 --> 00:53:20.526
<i>we started
to really fight our way</i>

861
00:53:20.561 --> 00:53:22.528
<i>through the House
and the Senate.</i>

862
00:53:22.563 --> 00:53:25.663
<i>We experienced a growing
groundswell of support,</i>

863
00:53:25.698 --> 00:53:27.830
<i>and now this is huge.</i>

864
00:53:27.865 --> 00:53:33.902
<i>SB1240 will stop state
issued aquarium permits.</i>

865
00:53:33.937 --> 00:53:37.411
<i>The current collectors
will be grandfathered in.</i>

866
00:53:37.446 --> 00:53:38.973
And it was actually
a great solution,

867
00:53:39.008 --> 00:53:40.909
because it didn't
negatively impact

868
00:53:40.944 --> 00:53:43.384
the current
commercial collectors

869
00:53:43.419 --> 00:53:45.683
who might feed their families.

870
00:53:45.718 --> 00:53:47.421
<i>I just want to clarify.</i>

871
00:53:47.456 --> 00:53:50.457
<i>Something will happen
this week, right?</i>

872
00:53:51.724 --> 00:53:54.362
<i>I have to tell you, I feel good.</i>

873
00:54:02.064 --> 00:54:05.901
There has been much conversation
about Senate Bill 1240

874
00:54:05.936 --> 00:54:07.804
relating to aquatic life.

875
00:54:07.839 --> 00:54:10.444
Uh, in the final analysis,

876
00:54:10.479 --> 00:54:13.282
I did decide to,
uh, veto that measure.

877
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:19.387
The Department of Land and Natural
Resources opposed the bill.

878
00:54:19.422 --> 00:54:22.720
The agency claimed
that the removal

879
00:54:22.755 --> 00:54:27.054
of over a million animals
a year has no effect.

880
00:54:27.089 --> 00:54:30.464
It wasn't the perfect solution
from a conservation perspective,

881
00:54:30.499 --> 00:54:33.698
but it was pretty darn close,
and it was a good compromise.

882
00:54:35.636 --> 00:54:37.471
<i>We passed committee conference,</i>

883
00:54:37.506 --> 00:54:39.407
<i>and the guts
of the bill were intact,</i>

884
00:54:39.442 --> 00:54:41.541
<i>and everybody celebrated.</i>

885
00:54:41.576 --> 00:54:43.741
<i>SB1240 said, "On this issue,</i>

886
00:54:43.776 --> 00:54:46.480
<i>our beautiful reefs,
there is hope.</i>

887
00:54:46.515 --> 00:54:48.845
<i>We're going to make
a giant step forward."</i>

888
00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:52.552
<i>We had support from all
over Hawaii and America.</i>

889
00:54:52.587 --> 00:54:55.456
<i>We had nonprofit groups
jump on board,</i>

890
00:54:55.491 --> 00:54:58.085
<i>hundreds of thousands
of supporters,</i>

891
00:54:58.120 --> 00:54:59.691
<i>and he vetoed the bill.</i>

892
00:55:00.793 --> 00:55:02.628
We'll see what happens
moving forward.

893
00:55:02.663 --> 00:55:05.400
The hope is that this year
there might be another bill

894
00:55:05.435 --> 00:55:07.666
that can actually end
the industry.

895
00:55:09.637 --> 00:55:12.935
A lot of the collectors, uh,
really do care for the resource.

896
00:55:12.970 --> 00:55:14.640
They're not the enemy,

897
00:55:14.675 --> 00:55:17.973
and they know that
the resource itself is depleted.

898
00:55:18.008 --> 00:55:19.678
And yet,
from their perspectives,

899
00:55:19.713 --> 00:55:22.681
their livelihood
depends on collecting.

900
00:55:22.716 --> 00:55:25.079
We do recognize there'll be
some need for change,

901
00:55:25.114 --> 00:55:27.422
and there are times when,
like this case,

902
00:55:27.457 --> 00:55:28.698
it would mean
that people are out of work

903
00:55:28.722 --> 00:55:30.656
and people who love their jobs.

904
00:55:30.691 --> 00:55:33.494
They're all excellent divers.

905
00:55:33.529 --> 00:55:36.860
There's a couple options. One, which
means they don't collect fish anymore,

906
00:55:36.895 --> 00:55:40.369
is some sort of buyout, you know, at
least they'll be economically sound,

907
00:55:40.404 --> 00:55:42.140
because they... they
do make those arguments.

908
00:55:42.164 --> 00:55:44.637
This is a pretty big fishery,
so it'd cost some money.

909
00:55:44.672 --> 00:55:48.003
If you want to make big money, there's
commercial diving, tech diving.

910
00:55:48.038 --> 00:55:50.874
Try to figure out ways
to incentivize them

911
00:55:50.909 --> 00:55:52.843
having new careers
with scholarships.

912
00:55:52.878 --> 00:55:54.449
I mean,
these guys know the ocean.

913
00:55:54.484 --> 00:55:56.121
Let's have them become
marine biologists

914
00:55:56.145 --> 00:55:58.783
or marine research scientists,
or the one that I favor,

915
00:55:58.818 --> 00:56:01.654
is learn
how to aquaculture these fish.

916
00:56:03.955 --> 00:56:08.628
Today, the vast majority of freshwater fish
are aquacultured.

917
00:56:08.663 --> 00:56:11.961
There have been a number
of saltwater marine fish

918
00:56:11.996 --> 00:56:13.545
that are popular
in the aquarium trade,

919
00:56:13.569 --> 00:56:16.163
the clown fish are aquacultured.

920
00:56:16.198 --> 00:56:18.572
Let's make sure when we're
aquaculturing organisms

921
00:56:18.607 --> 00:56:21.069
that they're raised,
you know, with respect.

922
00:56:21.104 --> 00:56:23.940
I have noticed a change

923
00:56:23.975 --> 00:56:27.009
in some of the smaller f...
Smaller shops

924
00:56:27.044 --> 00:56:29.715
that are kind of moving
more towards sustainability.

925
00:56:29.750 --> 00:56:35.424
More and more species that I had seen in
the trade were coming up captive bred,

926
00:56:35.459 --> 00:56:38.427
and a lot of stores were using
that as kind of a selling point.

927
00:56:38.462 --> 00:56:40.924
So it... it's just becoming
more and more commonplace.

928
00:56:40.959 --> 00:56:43.828
So I figured, if they're
doing it with some species,

929
00:56:43.863 --> 00:56:45.434
they can do it
with the other species.

930
00:56:45.469 --> 00:56:46.809
And if they can't
figure out how to do it,

931
00:56:46.833 --> 00:56:48.866
then we shouldn't
have them in an aquarium.

932
00:56:52.003 --> 00:56:54.036
I don't think that
it's in the benefit

933
00:56:54.071 --> 00:56:57.204
of the individual members
of the species

934
00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:59.976
to breed them in captivity,

935
00:57:00.011 --> 00:57:03.012
to keep them
in barren tanks indefinitely,

936
00:57:03.047 --> 00:57:06.048
where their breeding schedules
and their feeding schedules

937
00:57:06.083 --> 00:57:09.689
are wholly artificially
reliant on humans,

938
00:57:09.724 --> 00:57:12.989
where they will live
their lives in captivity.

939
00:57:13.024 --> 00:57:14.562
I don't think that's
an existence

940
00:57:14.597 --> 00:57:16.597
that we necessarily
want to encourage.

941
00:57:16.632 --> 00:57:19.160
These are thinking,
feeling beings,

942
00:57:19.195 --> 00:57:22.504
and we have
a responsibility to make sure

943
00:57:22.539 --> 00:57:25.034
that their lives are lives
that are worth living.

944
00:57:47.663 --> 00:57:51.731
You are taking away perhaps
their most precious possession,

945
00:57:51.766 --> 00:57:52.831
which is their freedom.

946
00:58:04.141 --> 00:58:06.548
There's actually
some places in the world

947
00:58:06.583 --> 00:58:08.583
where they passed laws
making it illegal

948
00:58:08.618 --> 00:58:10.684
to keep a fish in a little bowl.

949
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:13.918
So it's been recognized
legislatively, based on science,

950
00:58:13.953 --> 00:58:16.052
that this is not a good
quality of life.

951
00:58:16.087 --> 00:58:18.923
Keeping fish in glass tanks

952
00:58:18.958 --> 00:58:22.058
says that humans are
the privileged observers

953
00:58:22.093 --> 00:58:24.698
and manipulators
of the wildlife,

954
00:58:24.733 --> 00:58:27.162
and fish are the framed objects

955
00:58:27.197 --> 00:58:30.000
who exist for human
gratification.

956
00:58:30.035 --> 00:58:33.707
So, rather than increase
public interest

957
00:58:33.742 --> 00:58:35.709
in wildlife conservation,

958
00:58:35.744 --> 00:58:40.582
aquariums embody the human,
uh, acquisitiveness

959
00:58:40.617 --> 00:58:44.245
that has led to so much habitat
destruction and species,

960
00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:46.753
uh, extinction over the years.

961
00:58:46.788 --> 00:58:50.889
It's sort of the forever argument
for or against zoos or aquaria,

962
00:58:50.924 --> 00:58:53.859
is that there are, yes,
some animals in captivity there,

963
00:58:53.894 --> 00:58:57.599
and we... we may say that's not
the optimal life for them,

964
00:58:57.634 --> 00:59:00.228
but because we're
such a powerful species,

965
00:59:00.263 --> 00:59:04.298
you know, because we dominate,
we really need to manage.

966
00:59:04.333 --> 00:59:06.905
If we can get people
connected to nature,

967
00:59:06.940 --> 00:59:09.677
you know, just foster
in them an ecological ethic.

968
00:59:11.307 --> 00:59:14.583
<i>We have never had
any of our fish</i>

969
00:59:14.618 --> 00:59:16.816
<i>displayed in any aquarium.</i>

970
00:59:16.851 --> 00:59:18.752
<i>It was left where it belongs.</i>

971
00:59:21.284 --> 00:59:24.285
I got two amazing,
beautiful clownfish.

972
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:25.594
If they're dead, I will cry.

973
00:59:25.629 --> 00:59:28.157
Oh, my God, they're perfect.

974
00:59:28.192 --> 00:59:31.798
My favorite way to go with,
uh, saltwater is captive bred.

975
00:59:31.833 --> 00:59:34.031
I know it can't always
be done, sadly.

976
00:59:34.066 --> 00:59:36.132
Most fish are wild caught.

977
00:59:37.003 --> 00:59:40.334
"Now, what's wrong with that?"
I mean, that's not sustainable.

978
00:59:40.369 --> 00:59:43.073
It's almost like there's
this unspoken acceptance

979
00:59:43.108 --> 00:59:44.712
that you're going
to lose animals.

980
00:59:44.747 --> 00:59:46.340
Blue tangs get one foot long.

981
00:59:46.375 --> 00:59:49.750
So, if you imagine a foot
swimming around,

982
00:59:49.785 --> 00:59:52.687
it's a big fish, it cannot
live in a ten gallon tank,

983
00:59:52.722 --> 00:59:54.029
it cannot live
in a 20 gallon tank,

984
00:59:54.053 --> 00:59:55.690
it can't live
in any of those tanks.

985
00:59:57.093 --> 01:00:00.321
We have a lot of rules about cruelty
towards our dogs, our cats.

986
01:00:00.356 --> 01:00:02.862
And what do we have
in place for these animals?

987
01:00:02.897 --> 01:00:05.700
You know, there's not enough
value placed on their lives.

988
01:00:05.735 --> 01:00:07.361
When you remove
a fish from the reef,

989
01:00:07.396 --> 01:00:10.903
there is a hole there for a while where
there used to be

990
01:00:10.938 --> 01:00:13.807
a fish that hung out
or that knew that area.

991
01:00:13.842 --> 01:00:15.974
So we... we're doing
something really weird,

992
01:00:16.009 --> 01:00:18.075
we're objectifying them, yeah,

993
01:00:18.110 --> 01:00:20.407
like they're
infinitely replaceable,

994
01:00:20.442 --> 01:00:22.409
and that they're just
some sort of object.

995
01:00:22.444 --> 01:00:26.281
We're not seeing them
as part of this neighborhood.

996
01:00:26.316 --> 01:00:27.854
It's not a product, you know,

997
01:00:27.889 --> 01:00:31.352
it is an organism
that has interactions,

998
01:00:31.387 --> 01:00:33.057
you know,
we could even say a family,

999
01:00:33.092 --> 01:00:34.421
it has descendants out there.

1000
01:00:37.294 --> 01:00:41.736
If we can get 25%
of home hobbyists to think,

1001
01:00:41.771 --> 01:00:44.299
I had no idea the damage
this was causing.

1002
01:00:44.334 --> 01:00:46.136
How these fish are caught.

1003
01:00:46.171 --> 01:00:49.436
The... the destruction
to habitat in the process,

1004
01:00:49.471 --> 01:00:53.077
the consequence
to herbivores not eating algae,

1005
01:00:53.112 --> 01:00:58.082
they would take up photography
or get a flat screen TV.

1006
01:00:58.117 --> 01:01:02.053
<i>You can have a... an underwater
experience from your laptop.</i>

1007
01:01:02.088 --> 01:01:03.857
<i>We have reef cams now.</i>

1008
01:01:03.892 --> 01:01:06.189
<i>They're down there
night and day,</i>

1009
01:01:06.224 --> 01:01:08.092
<i>and you don't have
to kill anything,</i>

1010
01:01:08.127 --> 01:01:10.226
<i>you don't have
to compromise habitat.</i>

1011
01:01:10.261 --> 01:01:12.899
<i>The reef cam gives you
the live action.</i>

1012
01:01:14.067 --> 01:01:16.804
The technology serves
a great purpose

1013
01:01:16.839 --> 01:01:19.466
and is really exciting
for what it will allow.

1014
01:01:19.501 --> 01:01:24.438
Augmented reality that can put
the user into the ocean.

1015
01:01:24.473 --> 01:01:26.440
Children and future generations,

1016
01:01:26.475 --> 01:01:29.410
they'll be able to improve
the lives of animals

1017
01:01:29.445 --> 01:01:31.720
that doesn't keep
them in captivity.

1018
01:01:49.773 --> 01:01:51.971
So there were advocates
who went forward,

1019
01:01:52.006 --> 01:01:54.941
they actually lost at the lower
and intermediate level,

1020
01:01:54.976 --> 01:01:57.845
but at the Hawaii
Supreme Court level, they won.

1021
01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:00.111
The Supreme Court
ruled in our favor

1022
01:02:00.146 --> 01:02:02.949
after battling five years.

1023
01:02:02.984 --> 01:02:04.984
The state agency in charge

1024
01:02:05.019 --> 01:02:07.481
of protecting
our public resources

1025
01:02:07.516 --> 01:02:11.056
has to stop allowing
commercial collection

1026
01:02:11.091 --> 01:02:14.092
until they go through the environmental
review process.

1027
01:02:14.127 --> 01:02:15.797
The state is not giving
any new permits,

1028
01:02:15.832 --> 01:02:18.261
there's about
231 active permits,

1029
01:02:18.296 --> 01:02:22.133
the majority of the permits
are in this coast of Kona.

1030
01:02:22.168 --> 01:02:24.971
They didn't stop
the current commercial license.

1031
01:02:25.006 --> 01:02:27.369
It's illegal,
but they have to enforce it.

1032
01:02:41.187 --> 01:02:43.022
<i>We're all connected to the canoe</i>

1033
01:02:43.057 --> 01:02:47.158
<i>because our ancestors came
from the south islands</i>

1034
01:02:47.193 --> 01:02:49.193
<i>or the Polynesian island
called Tahiti</i>

1035
01:02:49.228 --> 01:02:51.525
<i>or Marquesas, by canoe.</i>

1036
01:02:53.562 --> 01:02:55.903
<i>We're very,
very connected to the canoe</i>

1037
01:02:55.938 --> 01:02:59.038
<i>and connected to ocean
because of that reason.</i>

1038
01:03:03.407 --> 01:03:07.046
<i>I made this trip all the way up
the National Monument</i>

1039
01:03:07.081 --> 01:03:09.081
<i>of Papahanaumokuakea.</i>

1040
01:03:09.116 --> 01:03:12.953
<i>From Hawaii to Kure,
it's almost 1,600 miles.</i>

1041
01:03:14.319 --> 01:03:17.089
<i>We paddled day,
night, day, night.</i>

1042
01:03:20.622 --> 01:03:25.394
<i>Papahanaumokuakea goes about
1,200 miles to the northwest</i>

1043
01:03:25.429 --> 01:03:28.529
<i>of the northernmost part
of the Hawaiian Islands.</i>

1044
01:03:28.564 --> 01:03:30.201
<i>It's huge.</i>

1045
01:03:30.236 --> 01:03:33.006
I was driving on this road

1046
01:03:33.041 --> 01:03:35.536
right about here in 2007.

1047
01:03:35.571 --> 01:03:38.880
We got a call and said,
"It's a monument."

1048
01:03:38.915 --> 01:03:42.917
It was the northwestern Hawaiian
Islands Coral Reef Ecosystem Reserve.

1049
01:03:42.952 --> 01:03:45.051
If you think Papahanaumokuakea
is hard.

1050
01:03:45.086 --> 01:03:46.855
Papahanaumokuakea.

1051
01:03:46.890 --> 01:03:48.285
Papahanaumokuakea.

1052
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:50.617
It's a shining light
in marine protection.

1053
01:03:50.652 --> 01:03:54.093
I sit on something called
the Reserve Advisory Council.

1054
01:03:54.128 --> 01:03:56.623
We've got Hawaiians,
Hawaiian elders,

1055
01:03:56.658 --> 01:04:00.495
citizens at large,
conservation, uh, experts,

1056
01:04:00.530 --> 01:04:02.431
scientists,
I'm the education rep.

1057
01:04:04.171 --> 01:04:05.973
And there is no extraction.

1058
01:04:12.014 --> 01:04:15.213
<i>We really have
a preserved environment.</i>

1059
01:04:15.248 --> 01:04:17.512
<i>The biodiversity
up there is amazing.</i>

1060
01:04:17.547 --> 01:04:19.613
<i>The top predators
are the most abundant.</i>

1061
01:04:21.221 --> 01:04:23.320
<i>They've found
an incredibly high number</i>

1062
01:04:23.355 --> 01:04:27.995
<i>of endemic species, which is
a huge deal for scientists.</i>

1063
01:04:33.596 --> 01:04:35.530
<i>And we can apply
what we've learned</i>

1064
01:04:35.565 --> 01:04:37.037
<i>to the main Hawaiian islands,</i>

1065
01:04:37.072 --> 01:04:38.973
<i>which are fairly devastated.</i>

1066
01:04:42.077 --> 01:04:44.913
Since it's so well
protected and so remote,

1067
01:04:44.948 --> 01:04:50.413
it's probably one of the most healthy,
pristine, intact ecosystems.

1068
01:04:57.422 --> 01:05:01.061
It's a very important spiritual
place to the Hawaiians.

1069
01:05:03.131 --> 01:05:05.527
One of the lower islands,
Mokumanamana,

1070
01:05:05.562 --> 01:05:08.398
sits at 23.5 degrees latitude,

1071
01:05:08.433 --> 01:05:11.368
which is right
on the Tropic of Cancer.

1072
01:05:11.403 --> 01:05:14.272
Very interesting
archaeological sites.

1073
01:05:14.307 --> 01:05:16.307
We think it was like Stonehenge.

1074
01:05:16.342 --> 01:05:18.672
On the equinox,
in Hawaiian culture,

1075
01:05:18.707 --> 01:05:20.949
that is the jumping
off place of souls,

1076
01:05:20.984 --> 01:05:23.578
that's a very special place
north of that, they knew that.

1077
01:05:26.385 --> 01:05:31.124
If we can tie our heart
to the value of nature,

1078
01:05:31.159 --> 01:05:34.094
for Western people it'd be
sort of the sense of the sacred.

1079
01:05:42.302 --> 01:05:44.973
Let's not look
at that fish as money.

1080
01:05:45.008 --> 01:05:48.141
You know, some people may look at it
as a friend, we may look at it as kin.

1081
01:05:48.176 --> 01:05:51.309
We may look at it as a being
that has its own value,

1082
01:05:51.344 --> 01:05:54.180
you know, however
that was given to it,

1083
01:05:54.215 --> 01:05:56.314
just by the fact
we share the planet with it.

1084
01:06:04.192 --> 01:06:07.325
The chant talks about
asking permission.

1085
01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:10.999
It reflects upon the<i> po'e ka</i>
<i>lani,</i> the people of heaven,

1086
01:06:11.034 --> 01:06:13.694
the<i> po'e ka moana,</i>
the people of the ocean,

1087
01:06:13.729 --> 01:06:16.598
and the<i> po'e ka o 'aina,</i>
the people of the land.

1088
01:06:16.633 --> 01:06:18.270
They say to all of us,

1089
01:06:18.305 --> 01:06:21.702
"I give you my heaven,
my ocean and my land.

1090
01:06:21.737 --> 01:06:23.638
You care for it as I have done."

1091
01:06:28.810 --> 01:06:31.283
I know of a lot of culture
that's extinct now.

1092
01:06:32.748 --> 01:06:36.519
It's really important
that the people of all Hawaii

1093
01:06:36.554 --> 01:06:38.719
preserve the Hawaiian culture.

1094
01:06:38.754 --> 01:06:42.459
We can embrace the world
of who we are, what we are,

1095
01:06:42.494 --> 01:06:44.560
what we have done
and where we're going.

1096
01:06:44.595 --> 01:06:47.695
Live in my culture,
teaching every day,

1097
01:06:47.730 --> 01:06:49.730
will keep my culture and legacy.

1098
01:06:49.765 --> 01:06:53.536
The main Hawaiian islands
could be a national monument

1099
01:06:53.571 --> 01:06:55.670
like Papahanaumokuakea.

1100
01:06:56.673 --> 01:07:01.214
And working together
with all the agencies of NOA

1101
01:07:01.249 --> 01:07:03.381
and the State and the community.

1102
01:07:03.416 --> 01:07:08.188
We will definitely
gain a better life

1103
01:07:08.223 --> 01:07:09.651
for the marine species.

1104
01:07:16.627 --> 01:07:20.200
We need to protect
all these resources.

1105
01:07:20.235 --> 01:07:23.104
God put all of fish
in the ocean.

1106
01:07:23.139 --> 01:07:25.535
Before, when I was small,
they was all over.

1107
01:07:25.570 --> 01:07:28.241
No sense come to the ocean,
there's no fish.

1108
01:07:28.276 --> 01:07:30.540
This industry
that they allowed...

1109
01:07:32.148 --> 01:07:34.544
they need to put a stop to,
that's all I'm thinking.

1110
01:08:07.876 --> 01:08:10.481
The Supreme Court says
it's illegal.

1111
01:08:10.516 --> 01:08:13.319
We need the Department
of Land and Natural Resources

1112
01:08:13.354 --> 01:08:15.255
to implement,

1113
01:08:15.290 --> 01:08:17.686
and the State,
they don't really enforce well.

1114
01:08:20.460 --> 01:08:22.559
The reefs are dying

1115
01:08:22.594 --> 01:08:25.331
because of us as humans
not doing what is right.

1116
01:08:26.631 --> 01:08:30.666
Hawaiian people, they knew
how to maintain balance.

1117
01:08:50.226 --> 01:08:52.259
The representatives
are supposed to represent

1118
01:08:52.294 --> 01:08:55.592
the interests of the people,
not the other way around.

1119
01:08:57.365 --> 01:08:59.299
When they take from us,

1120
01:08:59.334 --> 01:09:02.665
they're taking
from our children's future.

1121
01:09:02.700 --> 01:09:04.700
And I'm calling
on the Hawaiian people

1122
01:09:04.735 --> 01:09:06.339
to get behind this also.

1123
01:09:09.212 --> 01:09:13.313
My bill for prohibiting, uh,
reef fish aquarium collecting,

1124
01:09:13.348 --> 01:09:14.776
it's going to be a fight.

1125
01:09:14.811 --> 01:09:18.483
The aquarium trade hired
big gun lobbying firms.

1126
01:09:18.518 --> 01:09:21.948
Our reefs are our public trust.

1127
01:09:21.983 --> 01:09:24.885
The fish in the ocean
are our public trust.

1128
01:09:25.888 --> 01:09:27.822
<i>It's time for this to stop.</i>

1129
01:09:27.857 --> 01:09:30.660
<i>And I think we have
a very good chance.</i>

1130
01:09:31.729 --> 01:09:33.597
<i>We speak for the fish.</i>

1131
01:09:33.632 --> 01:09:35.764
<i>And believe me,
the fish are talking.</i>