WEBVTT FILE

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Downloaded from
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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<i>Copy. Got an armed robbery
going down right now.</i>

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<i>10-4.</i>

5
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I came in, and there's
an aggravated robbery.

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I was taking a break
and eating dinner,

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and I got up from my dinner
and went to go help.

8
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I saw him, and, er, well, fuck,
I gotta go towards him.

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He said, "Don't fuck with me.
I got a gun".

10
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And he took off to the right.

11
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I saw someone running
to the back of the field.

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Our headlights were right
with him as he was running.

13
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And the cops come
from all directions.

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We didn't know
what street he was on.

15
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I was jumping fences,
looking for him.

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Five-nine, Five-ten...

17
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Got a male, 5'9".

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Dark pants and a white unbuttoned shirt
that was kind of flapping.

19
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I could see somebody
underneath the truck.

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And I begin yelling to the person
to freeze, don't move, City Police.

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We pulled him out right away
and handcuffed him to the back.

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Then had him in the back seat
of the car.

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And had a couple witnesses
come up, take a look.

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So, I looked inside,
he looked back at me,

25
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and I said, "Yeah, that's him".

26
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And that was... that was it.

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<i>26-year-old Wanda Lopez was working alone
behind the counter,</i>

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<i>and while on the phone to a police
dispatcher, she was stabbed to death.</i>

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Wanda was beautiful.

30
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We were young childhood friends
in the neighbourhood.

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She was a wonderful girl.
Very happy, bubbly.

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That was Wanda.

33
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That night, I told her
as soon as I get off of work,

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I was gonna drive over to see
her at Diamond Shamrock.

35
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And as I approached the door,
it was bloody.

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And when I saw that door bloody,
I knew...

37
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my childhood friend had passed.

38
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This precious young lady

39
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had so much.

40
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And that was just totally taken
away from her.

41
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I recognised him.

42
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It turned out to be a subject that
I had dealt with in the past.

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Carlos DeLuna.

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He looked at me and he said...

45
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"You ain't got nothing on me.

46
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I'm gonna beat this one
like I beat the last one".

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It wasn't natural
the way he was talking.

48
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He kept repeating, "I know who did it,
so let me go. I'll tell you who did it".

49
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"Let me go, let me go,
let me go".

50
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Again and again.
The same thing over and over.

51
00:04:47.118 --> 00:04:48.650
But none of it made sense.

52
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Corpus Christi.

53
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Texas.

54
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It's a lot more civilised now
than it ever was before.

55
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This strip in between the Nueces
and the Rio Grande was

56
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kind of a legal no-man's land
for a long time.

57
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Little skirmishes back and forth
for years.

58
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Battles with the Mexican army.

59
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Cattle and horse wrestling.

60
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Texans would go into Mexico
and steal cattle.

61
00:06:07.764 --> 00:06:09.896
The Mexicans would come up here
and steal cattle.

62
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This is a really,
really dangerous place to live.

63
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It was a very violent place.

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But eventually, the thin veneer
of civilisation...

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improved things.

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Law and order and, uh,
punishment.

67
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Back then, Corpus was kind of
a strange town.

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In the '70s and the '80s.

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All kinds of crazy shit.

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God no.

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It's the Wild West.

72
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My anger was that...

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that it was a very dangerous place
to work, and she was by herself.

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Then, you still have a lot of
old-school, uh, people, you know,

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don't give a shit,
and they were... Or...

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Or if it involves somebody of
colour, they don't give a shit.

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That's one less Mexican,
you know?

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That's the way it was back then.

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<i>The customer noticed him outside drinking
a beer earlier</i>

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<i>and noticed that he also
had a knife.</i>

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<i>He became suspicious and told
Wanda to call the police.</i>

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<i>She was on the phone to police when
the suspect pulled out a knife.</i>

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We may never know why Wanda
Lopez was stabbed that night...

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The first job in television
out of college.

85
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First chance to be a reporter,
a news reporter on air.

86
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I was as green as could be, and so it was
a huge learning experience for me as well

87
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to be part of it
and to sit through this

88
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because, again, it was nothing
I'd ever done before.

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This was my second home
away from the newspaper.

90
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This is where I spent all my time unless
I was at the office writing the stories.

91
00:08:25.566 --> 00:08:29.266
The Carlos DeLuna trial was a big deal
because it was a capital murder case.

92
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This was a bad
situation from the word "go".

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Carlos DeLuna, he was facing
the death penalty.

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I mean, you just can't get
any worse than that.

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At the time, it was pretty wild.

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The DA was pretty aggressive
and rewarded aggressiveness.

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I wanted to try everything
in sight.

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So I thought,
"I'm getting in on this".

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Wanda Lopez.

100
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Oh...

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Brings back...
a lot of mixed feelings.

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A lot of mixed feelings.

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"Stab wound one penetrates
the 5th intercostal space

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in the left chest cavity

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and goes almost completely through
the lower lobe of the left lung".

106
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"Stab wound two is just at
the lower level of the breasts".

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"As a result of the two
stab wounds,

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there is approximately two litres of blood
in the left chest cavity".

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We asked him about the situation, and then,
the more we looked into it,

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that was not his manner of...

111
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committing crimes.

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He just was not the type to go
and pull a knife on somebody and

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stab 'em to death.

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And, of course,
he came up with a story.

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He told the fella that drove him
to the police station

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he didn't do it, but he knew who
did. That he would help 'em out.

117
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And, uh, when he got to the police
station and they tried to question him,

118
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he shut up.

119
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So what's your reaction to that?

120
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That he was having a panic
attack and running his mouth.

121
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And how common was that?

122
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Pretty common.

123
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Ever been scared before?

124
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He was apprehensive, he...
was concerned.

125
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I would think, deep down inside,
he was scared.

126
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Carlos was always running
around in the streets.

127
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My brother Carlos DeLuna, he was
out there doing spray paint,

128
00:11:03.193 --> 00:11:04.223
drinking.

129
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Started to hang around
with the wrong crowd.

130
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I know he got arrested
for several things.

131
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Little penny stuff, you know.

132
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Misdemeanours, I guess.

133
00:11:22.207 --> 00:11:23.880
I was young, you know.
I was in my 20s.

134
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I was living in Dallas, and I...
I got a call from my mum,

135
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and she told me what happened.

136
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And I said it's another joke, you know?
He's always getting into something.

137
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And then the next day he's out
walking around, you know?

138
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I really didn't wanna have
anything to do with him.

139
00:11:42.368 --> 00:11:43.808
He did a lot of bad things
to me.

140
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He stole my truck and he wrecked
it, and other things that he did.

141
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Taking my mother's money out of
the pocket...

142
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and so on.

143
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I mean, I would try to talk to
him, get sense to him, but I mean,

144
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you can only say so much.

145
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He would never, never open up.

146
00:12:05.824 --> 00:12:08.353
You know, it's hard for me
to say this, but...

147
00:12:10.695 --> 00:12:12.456
I really didn't care
at that time.

148
00:12:22.976 --> 00:12:27.240
Every morning, Carlos
would come down this tunnel

149
00:12:28.614 --> 00:12:32.278
and they had these little
windows for us to video him.

150
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We would just watch him walk,
this long perp walk.

151
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Same little swagger
down the hall.

152
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It was our ritual
before the trial began.

153
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You go to war with the army you got,
not the one you'd like to have.

154
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As true for them
as it was for me.

155
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From my standpoint,
here we have a case

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in which the only evidence
is eyewitness evidence.

157
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That's the worst evidence
in the world.

158
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Would you state your name
for the jury, please.

159
00:13:28.969 --> 00:13:32.405
Kevan Baker. I am a witness.

160
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:35.778
Mr Baker, I want to take you
back to the night of February 4.

161
00:13:35.813 --> 00:13:37.681
What kind of vehicle
were you driving?

162
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I was driving a '67 Mercury
Cougar.

163
00:13:40.649 --> 00:13:42.480
- Was that your car?
- Yes, sir.

164
00:13:42.515 --> 00:13:44.950
Can you tell the jury
what you did?

165
00:13:44.986 --> 00:13:46.352
I got out, unlocked my gas cap.

166
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Schiwetz wouldn't sit behind
his desk asking the questions.

167
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He was up, he was moving
and he was passionate.

168
00:13:54.964 --> 00:13:57.061
He captivated this whole
courtroom.

169
00:13:57.096 --> 00:13:58.736
What happened then, Mr Baker?

170
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He was just jerking her
as hard as he could.

171
00:14:01.507 --> 00:14:03.807
And then he ran to the east.

172
00:14:03.842 --> 00:14:06.471
Right past the Arsuaga couple.

173
00:14:06.506 --> 00:14:08.976
Which is when
he turned and looked at us,

174
00:14:09.012 --> 00:14:12.213
seeing him and being able
to identify him.

175
00:14:12.248 --> 00:14:15.686
Steve Schiwetz was very
effective. Very effective.

176
00:14:15.721 --> 00:14:18.054
Um, but he had a lot
to work with.

177
00:14:19.321 --> 00:14:22.125
Were you on duty at approximately
8:00, 8:30 that night?

178
00:14:22.161 --> 00:14:23.488
Yes.

179
00:14:24.423 --> 00:14:26.359
Spotted somebody under
a pickup truck.

180
00:14:27.527 --> 00:14:30.267
When they pulled him
out from under the truck,

181
00:14:30.302 --> 00:14:35.405
they found a wad of bills in his
front pants pocket totalling $149,

182
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.369
which was about the amount of money
that was taken from the cash register

183
00:14:39.404 --> 00:14:41.143
in the robbery of
the service station.

184
00:14:46.680 --> 00:14:50.548
And what made it
even worse, they had the audio.

185
00:14:58.223 --> 00:14:59.995
It was just horrible.

186
00:15:00.031 --> 00:15:01.695
<i>- Where is he at now?
- He's right here.</i>

187
00:15:01.730 --> 00:15:04.079
The biggest thing that happened
was the playing of the tape,

188
00:15:04.103 --> 00:15:09.567
which was just chilling
and so sad and so compelling.

189
00:15:09.602 --> 00:15:13.575
There was not a cough,
there was not a rustle of paper.

190
00:15:13.610 --> 00:15:15.342
Everyone was rapt.

191
00:15:18.444 --> 00:15:20.884
The impact was shocking to them.

192
00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.220
They're not used to hearing
stuff like that.

193
00:15:29.989 --> 00:15:34.090
The 911 call establishes that there's
absolutely no reason

194
00:15:34.126 --> 00:15:35.927
for him to kill her.

195
00:15:35.963 --> 00:15:38.923
According to the tape, she was complying.
She was handing over the money.

196
00:15:39.901 --> 00:15:43.205
She just says, "You can have it all",
and then he kills her.

197
00:15:44.602 --> 00:15:46.737
But there's a lot of questions,

198
00:15:46.772 --> 00:15:49.310
because, you know, if you keep
looking at the evidence...

199
00:15:50.813 --> 00:15:54.711
The blood. If he stabbed her and
he's right there next to her,

200
00:15:55.785 --> 00:15:57.817
why is there nothing
on his clothing?

201
00:15:57.853 --> 00:16:00.621
DeLuna's pulling her head down
like that and he's backing out.

202
00:16:00.657 --> 00:16:05.425
He's not gonna get any blood on his shoes,
pants or anywhere else.

203
00:16:07.128 --> 00:16:11.497
So, I'd have liked to have had it,
but, I mean, kind have been overkill.

204
00:16:25.984 --> 00:16:27.546
<i>Here was contention</i>

205
00:16:27.581 --> 00:16:29.920
<i>that DeLuna would not testify
in his own defence</i>

206
00:16:29.956 --> 00:16:32.252
<i>because of his previous
criminal record.</i>

207
00:16:32.288 --> 00:16:35.486
Ninety-nine times
out of a hundred,

208
00:16:35.522 --> 00:16:39.496
you never put your client
on the stand. Never.

209
00:16:39.531 --> 00:16:43.100
The problem was, he wanted to tell the jury
he didn't do it.

210
00:16:44.229 --> 00:16:47.737
And my approach was simply
see what he's go to say

211
00:16:47.772 --> 00:16:49.733
and then find the holes in it

212
00:16:50.575 --> 00:16:52.109
which was kind of easy.

213
00:16:56.612 --> 00:16:58.686
[Boudrie reporting <i>Once on the stand,</i>
<i>DeLuna told the court</i>

214
00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:01.251
<i>that on February 4,
the day of the murder,</i>

215
00:17:01.286 --> 00:17:04.451
<i>he was going to meet a girl
named Mary Ann Perales.</i>

216
00:17:04.486 --> 00:17:07.784
So I sent a detective
out, "Go find Perales".

217
00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:09.786
She did.

218
00:17:14.159 --> 00:17:20.169
His alibi witness, she testified
that, well, no, that didn't happen

219
00:17:20.205 --> 00:17:23.206
because at the time,
I was seven months pregnant

220
00:17:23.241 --> 00:17:25.872
and I was attending
a baby shower held in my honour.

221
00:17:25.907 --> 00:17:27.241
So I wasn't there.

222
00:17:27.276 --> 00:17:30.008
His only explanation
for what really happened

223
00:17:30.043 --> 00:17:31.478
was clearly a lie.

224
00:17:32.346 --> 00:17:34.178
You're trying to defend
somebody,

225
00:17:34.213 --> 00:17:38.254
and they're giving you this information
that's, uh... that doesn't pan out.

226
00:17:39.691 --> 00:17:41.059
Where did this come from?

227
00:17:41.927 --> 00:17:43.754
You want to wring
somebody's neck.

228
00:17:46.966 --> 00:17:50.794
That is when he changed tune...

229
00:17:52.364 --> 00:17:54.600
and admitted to being there.

230
00:17:57.374 --> 00:17:59.944
He said that he was
across the street,

231
00:17:59.979 --> 00:18:02.080
he could see inside
the service station...

232
00:18:03.080 --> 00:18:06.576
and he saw a man attacking
the attendant.

233
00:18:06.611 --> 00:18:08.845
And instead of reporting it,
he fled.

234
00:18:09.721 --> 00:18:11.687
"I was there. I lied,

235
00:18:11.722 --> 00:18:16.760
but it was only because I saw who did
do it, and I was afraid to say".

236
00:18:16.796 --> 00:18:19.163
So he finally tells his lawyers

237
00:18:20.294 --> 00:18:22.933
the name of the guy
that he claims did the murder.

238
00:18:22.968 --> 00:18:25.631
He gave us the name
Carlos Hernandez.

239
00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:31.142
<i>DeLuna pointed the finger at a friend,
Carlos Hernandez.</i>

240
00:18:31.177 --> 00:18:33.443
DeLuna said that he had met
this Carlos Hernandez

241
00:18:33.478 --> 00:18:36.741
while they were both incarcerated
at the Nueces County Jail.

242
00:18:38.113 --> 00:18:40.680
We got every Carlos Hernandez

243
00:18:40.716 --> 00:18:43.236
that had been arrested in Corpus
Christi in the last ten years,

244
00:18:44.683 --> 00:18:50.158
we put every one of 'em in a line-up,
and he said, "No, that's not the guy".

245
00:18:50.193 --> 00:18:52.326
And none of those guys
were the guy.

246
00:18:52.361 --> 00:18:54.757
And then the prosecution
bring detectives on

247
00:18:54.792 --> 00:18:57.328
to say that Carlos Hernandez
did not exist.

248
00:18:57.363 --> 00:18:59.369
This guy just does not exist.

249
00:18:59.404 --> 00:19:02.105
"We tried to give you the
benefit of the doubt, Carlos.

250
00:19:02.140 --> 00:19:05.137
We tried to find this guy
you say was there.

251
00:19:05.172 --> 00:19:07.211
We could not find him".

252
00:19:13.146 --> 00:19:16.187
Yeah. He's making up another lie
because he got caught the first time

253
00:19:16.854 --> 00:19:18.684
and he didn't exist.

254
00:19:22.260 --> 00:19:25.295
There's nothing to corroborate
what he's saying.

255
00:19:26.396 --> 00:19:30.597
He's just picking this out,
a fictitious person.

256
00:19:36.776 --> 00:19:37.934
Carlos Hernandez.

257
00:19:39.311 --> 00:19:42.009
Who the hell is Carlos
Hernandez? I'm trying to...

258
00:19:42.044 --> 00:19:43.544
I'm trying to remember.

259
00:19:44.783 --> 00:19:45.909
I'm trying to remember.

260
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:48.912
Corpus Christi's small.

261
00:19:50.316 --> 00:19:52.883
I-I don't know the guy.

262
00:19:56.091 --> 00:19:57.459
It was hard to believe.

263
00:20:00.999 --> 00:20:02.761
Carlos Hernandez was a phantom.

264
00:20:12.672 --> 00:20:14.542
I was just waiting to hear it.

265
00:20:15.443 --> 00:20:19.211
And sure enough,
the verdict is "guilty".

266
00:20:19.246 --> 00:20:20.911
He's guilty of murder.

267
00:20:23.084 --> 00:20:27.656
So, in a capital murder case, you're
sentenced either to life in prison

268
00:20:27.691 --> 00:20:29.352
or death.

269
00:20:29.387 --> 00:20:32.760
There's a very limited number of
crimes for which you can be executed.

270
00:20:32.795 --> 00:20:37.727
Basically, in Texas, it's murdering
somebody during a robbery,

271
00:20:37.762 --> 00:20:41.034
or during a rape,
during a kidnapping,

272
00:20:41.070 --> 00:20:45.639
and he committed a murder while he was
involved in robbing a gas station.

273
00:20:47.171 --> 00:20:52.277
If we feel... or if I feel... that
they're gonna find you guilty of this

274
00:20:52.313 --> 00:20:54.210
and sentence you to death,

275
00:20:54.245 --> 00:20:58.918
it's better to go ahead, if they're
offering you life, take it.

276
00:20:58.954 --> 00:21:04.394
I offered him life in prison, and
with the possibility of parole.

277
00:21:06.363 --> 00:21:09.564
So, our client, steadfast no.

278
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:12.600
"Why should I go to prison
for something I didn't do?

279
00:21:12.635 --> 00:21:16.406
I don't want to plead guilty
because I am not guilty."

280
00:21:18.540 --> 00:21:22.544
The same jury must decide...

281
00:21:23.476 --> 00:21:26.249
whether to kill Carlos DeLuna

282
00:21:26.285 --> 00:21:29.386
or whether to let him
stay in prison for life.

283
00:21:29.421 --> 00:21:32.553
And once again, the prosecution
did a phenomenal job

284
00:21:32.589 --> 00:21:35.158
when they were abe to bring up
the past instances

285
00:21:35.193 --> 00:21:37.361
with him having run-ins
with women.

286
00:21:42.367 --> 00:21:44.167
Would he be a continuing threat
to society?

287
00:21:45.169 --> 00:21:47.065
Would he commit further acts
of violence?

288
00:21:47.100 --> 00:21:50.735
"Predator" is all I remember
Steve Schiwetz saying.

289
00:21:50.770 --> 00:21:54.145
"He is a predator.
He will do this again.

290
00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:56.842
He will harm again.
He will kill again."

291
00:21:58.878 --> 00:22:02.247
It's this train
that's headed in that direction,

292
00:22:02.282 --> 00:22:05.851
and it's not going anywhere but
straight forward towards conviction.

293
00:22:07.992 --> 00:22:11.259
<i>And the jury convicted DeLuna and gave him
the death penalty.</i>

294
00:22:11.295 --> 00:22:14.360
It hurts.
I hate the death penalty.

295
00:22:14.396 --> 00:22:17.767
It has no place in our society.

296
00:22:17.803 --> 00:22:18.803
He was guilty.

297
00:22:19.938 --> 00:22:22.032
Yeah. You guys did
a good job. You convinced me.

298
00:22:23.336 --> 00:22:26.173
You know, we were all kind of
caught up in this.

299
00:22:26.208 --> 00:22:28.772
Being very new and naive,

300
00:22:28.808 --> 00:22:30.842
you're not jaded enough
to really know

301
00:22:30.877 --> 00:22:33.249
that there's not always
two sides to a story.

302
00:22:33.284 --> 00:22:35.012
Sometimes there's three,
four or five,

303
00:22:36.220 --> 00:22:38.356
so I didn't know what I was
in store for.

304
00:22:41.256 --> 00:22:42.624
And, you know,

305
00:22:43.591 --> 00:22:45.792
there's actually, this story
never rests.

306
00:22:47.564 --> 00:22:50.632
I mean, this is too big,
you know what I mean?

307
00:22:52.702 --> 00:22:55.835
Every town's got dirty...
dirty laundry, you know?

308
00:23:15.654 --> 00:23:17.659
I never did come to the trial.

309
00:23:18.760 --> 00:23:22.400
I just read paper clippings
and stuff like that.

310
00:23:22.435 --> 00:23:24.435
I thought it was gonna be...
He was gonna get out.

311
00:23:25.667 --> 00:23:28.571
But it didn't work out like that.
It really was the real thing.

312
00:23:30.309 --> 00:23:33.213
People came up to me and says, "I
can't believe your brother did that."

313
00:23:33.237 --> 00:23:35.908
And I said, "Well, I don't think
my brother did that."

314
00:23:36.946 --> 00:23:37.946
You know?

315
00:23:38.610 --> 00:23:41.111
I knew something was not right.

316
00:23:43.050 --> 00:23:46.919
But at the end of the day,
you know, he was my brother.

317
00:23:53.664 --> 00:23:56.896
It's not something
you just walk away from.

318
00:23:57.995 --> 00:24:00.702
At that point,
it was still a story.

319
00:24:02.134 --> 00:24:04.871
He wasn't so much a person to me
as he was a story.

320
00:24:06.407 --> 00:24:11.515
And I got the idea that I'd like
to talk to Carlos on death row.

321
00:24:13.049 --> 00:24:18.454
I, of course, had never been to, really,
a jail, let alone a prison, before

322
00:24:18.490 --> 00:24:22.090
or death row, so, to me,
you know, that was like,

323
00:24:22.125 --> 00:24:26.860
"This is a great follow-up to go talk
to him and see what he has to say."

324
00:24:31.336 --> 00:24:32.736
In the back of my mind,
you know,

325
00:24:34.139 --> 00:24:38.338
part of me was saying, "Maybe I can be
the one that he tells the truth to.

326
00:24:38.373 --> 00:24:39.642
He finally admits it."

327
00:24:53.151 --> 00:24:56.487
And I have to speak
through security glass,

328
00:24:56.522 --> 00:25:01.730
thinking that this is just bizarre
having this conversation with a killer.

329
00:25:03.035 --> 00:25:05.600
And I asked him, you know,
how things were going.

330
00:25:05.635 --> 00:25:07.736
Are they trying to find
Carlos Hernandez?

331
00:25:27.657 --> 00:25:30.159
I'm thinking he's doing
a snow job on me here.

332
00:25:30.194 --> 00:25:35.599
You know, that he's trying to get me,
um, to believe him and be sympathetic.

333
00:25:44.409 --> 00:25:46.638
He was just the
cold-blooded killer.

334
00:25:46.674 --> 00:25:48.678
He was not a human being to me.

335
00:25:50.077 --> 00:25:54.849
So, I'm kind of guarded, but he
started writing to me after that.

336
00:25:56.352 --> 00:26:01.122
And I thought that was weird,
and I was kind of creeped out.

337
00:26:01.158 --> 00:26:02.593
"Dear Karen...

338
00:26:04.730 --> 00:26:07.224
I was thinking I could tell you
a little bit about me."

339
00:26:08.865 --> 00:26:11.668
I didn't want to get in this
letter-writing thing with this killer,

340
00:26:12.930 --> 00:26:16.307
and I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna
have a death row pen pal",

341
00:26:16.342 --> 00:26:18.609
and I was very nervous
about that.

342
00:26:19.808 --> 00:26:22.479
"We are appealing to the Fifth
Circuit in New Orleans,

343
00:26:22.515 --> 00:26:25.143
and of course to
the United States Supreme Court.

344
00:26:26.652 --> 00:26:29.645
All day, all I've been doing is calling
my lawyers.

345
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:33.490
Take care, and you be careful, and
God bless you and your family.

346
00:26:33.525 --> 00:26:35.824
I hope that all your dreams
come true."

347
00:26:47.836 --> 00:26:50.267
An execution date had been set.

348
00:26:51.208 --> 00:26:53.105
The chances of...

349
00:26:54.207 --> 00:26:58.143
delaying the execution
were probably pretty good.

350
00:26:59.218 --> 00:27:01.482
I thought I had
a reasonable shot.

351
00:27:01.518 --> 00:27:03.181
The paperwork that I would file

352
00:27:03.216 --> 00:27:06.954
would be sufficient
to at least halt that process.

353
00:27:08.659 --> 00:27:14.396
In terms of an overall possibility
that Mr DeLuna never gets executed,

354
00:27:14.431 --> 00:27:17.093
there is a chance of success.

355
00:27:17.128 --> 00:27:19.703
I have some tools
in the tool kit.

356
00:27:20.804 --> 00:27:23.801
They can look
at the attorneys' activities.

357
00:27:23.836 --> 00:27:25.303
Did they meet the standards

358
00:27:25.338 --> 00:27:28.176
in a case where the ultimate
verdict was being rendered?

359
00:27:29.846 --> 00:27:31.877
You normally have to go
outside the record.

360
00:27:31.913 --> 00:27:33.553
You have to take a look
at other things.

361
00:27:34.781 --> 00:27:38.684
Something in your back pocket that
would really make a judge's head spin

362
00:27:38.719 --> 00:27:40.416
about the uncertainty of it.

363
00:27:44.927 --> 00:27:46.796
I was in the courthouse
every day. Every day.

364
00:27:48.262 --> 00:27:52.635
And if you wanted to know anything,
you had to talk to the little guy.

365
00:27:52.671 --> 00:27:55.333
I befriended the secretaries,
the janitors.

366
00:27:55.369 --> 00:27:59.542
I mean, you... you name it, I was
on a first-name basis with them.

367
00:27:59.577 --> 00:28:01.373
And they're the ones
that told me,

368
00:28:01.408 --> 00:28:04.275
"I think there's some more
photographs that they didn't show."

369
00:28:05.784 --> 00:28:07.823
I issued subpoenas, I got 'em,
and I looked at 'em,

370
00:28:07.847 --> 00:28:10.215
and then I saw these other ones.

371
00:28:13.455 --> 00:28:17.957
There was her blood, and the cops
were walking all over the evidence.

372
00:28:17.992 --> 00:28:20.225
I mean, they were contaminating
the scene.

373
00:28:21.531 --> 00:28:24.133
I was horrified. I mean...

374
00:28:24.168 --> 00:28:29.672
What happened was, when they found
Mr Luna under, I think, a car,

375
00:28:29.708 --> 00:28:31.841
they figured they had the guy.
It made sense.

376
00:28:33.075 --> 00:28:35.315
You know, we don't have to do
shit. This is an easy one.

377
00:28:36.646 --> 00:28:39.780
But there was blood all over
the place, so I did ask,

378
00:28:39.816 --> 00:28:42.016
well, why wasn't there
any blood on him?

379
00:28:43.182 --> 00:28:44.788
And nobody could answer
that question.

380
00:28:46.050 --> 00:28:49.991
I said, "Well, you know, there
had to have been something."

381
00:28:50.026 --> 00:28:52.892
I mean, all you have to do
is look at these pictures.

382
00:28:52.928 --> 00:28:54.796
There had to have been
blood everywhere.

383
00:28:54.832 --> 00:28:58.230
Either on him or on his shoes
or something.

384
00:29:01.737 --> 00:29:04.841
Now... she was stabbed twice...

385
00:29:06.778 --> 00:29:09.239
and there was a lot of bleeding
with both wounds

386
00:29:09.275 --> 00:29:14.510
'cause they were done
consecutively, one, two.

387
00:29:15.948 --> 00:29:18.847
The, uh, knife in the wound,

388
00:29:18.883 --> 00:29:22.254
that's going to allow the blood to
flow along the smooth knife edge.

389
00:29:23.956 --> 00:29:29.998
She's moving around, she's slipping
around in the blood she's losing.

390
00:29:31.936 --> 00:29:35.498
Well, I would think there
would be some blood on him.

391
00:29:36.808 --> 00:29:41.141
He certainly should have had
some blood on his shoes.

392
00:29:44.244 --> 00:29:46.409
So I went
to the defence attorneys.

393
00:29:46.444 --> 00:29:50.414
I showed it to them,
it was kind of like, um...

394
00:29:51.356 --> 00:29:53.219
There was no reaction.

395
00:29:57.093 --> 00:30:01.029
Uh, obviously,
there's, uh, more blood.

396
00:30:02.768 --> 00:30:04.564
And nobody wanted
to rock the boat.

397
00:30:04.600 --> 00:30:06.232
The case was closed.

398
00:30:07.867 --> 00:30:11.138
It's done, and it's over.

399
00:30:12.641 --> 00:30:14.372
You know, basically.

400
00:30:15.006 --> 00:30:17.774
Hindsight is just great.

401
00:30:17.810 --> 00:30:23.852
We love to just go back and blame everybody
that we possibly can.

402
00:30:23.887 --> 00:30:27.190
And in doing so,
we are doing the same thing

403
00:30:27.225 --> 00:30:32.896
that every person that goes to...
To prison... says the same thing.

404
00:30:32.931 --> 00:30:36.497
"My lawyer was lousy,
otherwise I wouldn't be here."

405
00:30:36.532 --> 00:30:41.702
We never look at ourselves, so if
they want to say I did a lousy job,

406
00:30:41.737 --> 00:30:43.832
they can say whatever they want.

407
00:30:43.867 --> 00:30:48.206
Well, I mean, if you see something
wrong being done to somebody,

408
00:30:48.241 --> 00:30:50.010
you'd better say something,
do something,

409
00:30:50.046 --> 00:30:52.614
even if it's not going
to help you politically.

410
00:30:52.649 --> 00:30:54.610
But they didn't want to hear it.

411
00:30:58.352 --> 00:31:00.655
I'm gonna have to tell you
I have no recollection

412
00:31:00.691 --> 00:31:01.931
these were ever shared with me.

413
00:31:03.562 --> 00:31:07.991
Would've been almost impossible for a
perpetrator to walk away from that

414
00:31:08.026 --> 00:31:13.464
without having some residual blood, either
on their clothing or on their body.

415
00:31:15.369 --> 00:31:18.139
I don't see how it could be
possible otherwise.

416
00:31:19.878 --> 00:31:22.539
I've never seen these before...
that I recall.

417
00:31:33.358 --> 00:31:37.620
"Karen, hey, I wish we could have honestly
met another way.

418
00:31:38.596 --> 00:31:40.964
Maybe if I had friends like you,

419
00:31:40.999 --> 00:31:43.694
maybe my life would have been
a whole lot different.

420
00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:45.100
Who knows?

421
00:31:46.034 --> 00:31:48.400
And when I ended up
on death roll"...

422
00:31:49.741 --> 00:31:50.966
- in...
- -Death what?

423
00:31:51.002 --> 00:31:53.570
Roll. R-O-L-L.

424
00:31:55.847 --> 00:31:58.709
He didn't even know he was
on death row.

425
00:31:58.744 --> 00:32:00.415
You know?

426
00:32:00.450 --> 00:32:04.180
And I think that was the first time,
when I got this card from him

427
00:32:04.215 --> 00:32:09.893
and as kind of freaked out as I was about
it, I started looking at this guy, going,

428
00:32:09.928 --> 00:32:12.858
"Man, he doesn't even know
he's on death row."

429
00:32:14.764 --> 00:32:17.033
He has virtually no education.

430
00:32:17.068 --> 00:32:21.972
He had no real shot at life
the way many of us have.

431
00:32:23.739 --> 00:32:26.739
I just, for the first time, began to
kind of look at him as a human being.

432
00:32:41.059 --> 00:32:43.961
Not so much doubting
the verdict, but wondering...

433
00:32:44.989 --> 00:32:46.128
thinking...

434
00:32:47.933 --> 00:32:50.000
you know, if you weren't born
in the barrios...

435
00:32:51.903 --> 00:32:53.630
would this still have happened
to you?

436
00:32:58.038 --> 00:32:59.735
Mom had to raise seven.

437
00:33:01.643 --> 00:33:03.046
By herself.

438
00:33:04.347 --> 00:33:06.159
I guess everybody judged us
because how we lived, you know?

439
00:33:06.183 --> 00:33:09.184
Didn't have any money
and we lived in the projects.

440
00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:12.352
All this wasn't here.
It was all fields.

441
00:33:16.727 --> 00:33:19.161
Then they built the new part.

442
00:33:20.326 --> 00:33:24.001
Turn back over here.
Used to be a lot of bars and...

443
00:33:24.935 --> 00:33:26.762
nightclubs all around
this whole area.

444
00:33:28.667 --> 00:33:31.640
You know? They did a lot
of killings here in this...

445
00:33:34.073 --> 00:33:35.672
this area right here.

446
00:33:36.580 --> 00:33:37.740
Lot of killings.

447
00:33:41.316 --> 00:33:44.650
Me and Carlos used to play
around this whole area.

448
00:33:54.127 --> 00:33:55.928
It was a bad neighbourhood.

449
00:33:55.964 --> 00:34:00.103
This was a... Back then, this was a good
place for the kids to come and fistfight.

450
00:34:01.906 --> 00:34:03.733
I used to stand up here,
just watch it.

451
00:34:04.843 --> 00:34:06.403
And there were no places
you can run.

452
00:34:07.040 --> 00:34:08.774
Mama and daddy ain't gonna
help you.

453
00:34:12.111 --> 00:34:14.688
In my experience as a criminal
lawyer and seeing all these guys

454
00:34:14.712 --> 00:34:17.483
who were charged
with capital murder offences,

455
00:34:17.518 --> 00:34:19.638
they got court-appointed
lawyers, nobody gave a shit.

456
00:34:21.252 --> 00:34:25.757
All these... these poor people,
they were all getting found guilty,

457
00:34:25.792 --> 00:34:30.727
they were all going to death row,
and nobody represented them.

458
00:34:31.900 --> 00:34:33.400
It's all about money.

459
00:34:34.638 --> 00:34:36.073
Yeah.

460
00:34:45.478 --> 00:34:49.215
This was our football field.
Me and Carlos...

461
00:34:49.250 --> 00:34:51.586
I was always the gunslinger.

462
00:34:51.621 --> 00:34:52.650
Quarterback.

463
00:34:54.687 --> 00:34:57.291
You know, I mean,
back then you could actually...

464
00:34:57.327 --> 00:35:00.459
Back then you can actually...
It was full of kids.

465
00:35:00.494 --> 00:35:03.299
And you could hear
all the mothers around 6:00,

466
00:35:03.334 --> 00:35:06.829
"Manuel! Carlos!" Everybody's
names, all the kids' names.

467
00:35:08.005 --> 00:35:09.601
I can't believe that
I'm back here.

468
00:35:10.974 --> 00:35:13.176
Still looks the same.
That was our room right there.

469
00:35:14.712 --> 00:35:15.739
Right there was our room.

470
00:35:17.113 --> 00:35:19.710
And where that air conditioner
where's my mom lived at.

471
00:35:23.584 --> 00:35:26.783
Those were our
baby brothers and sisters.

472
00:35:28.518 --> 00:35:31.188
And, uh, this one?

473
00:35:31.223 --> 00:35:33.491
We took it at a carnival.

474
00:35:33.527 --> 00:35:38.230
It was Manuel and Carlos
when they were small.

475
00:35:38.266 --> 00:35:39.831
We were always taking care
of them.

476
00:35:39.867 --> 00:35:43.005
We were like their babysitters all the time
because my mom worked,

477
00:35:43.041 --> 00:35:46.006
and we babysat for them
and kept them.

478
00:35:46.041 --> 00:35:47.408
'Cause we were older siblings.

479
00:35:48.714 --> 00:35:52.149
And doing things, you know,
that normal kids do.

480
00:35:53.249 --> 00:35:56.153
We played and had our
twin bicycles and...

481
00:35:58.056 --> 00:36:00.157
Carlos was always a sweet kid.

482
00:36:01.927 --> 00:36:03.285
He was my little brother...

483
00:36:04.595 --> 00:36:05.624
you know?

484
00:36:08.525 --> 00:36:10.893
Carlos fell in this trap...

485
00:36:12.868 --> 00:36:14.204
and I blame...

486
00:36:16.507 --> 00:36:19.539
that we didn't have the education
to be able to help him out.

487
00:36:20.478 --> 00:36:22.473
We didn't have the power or...

488
00:36:22.508 --> 00:36:24.577
We didn't understand
how to handle it.

489
00:36:30.153 --> 00:36:32.189
It was a stacked deck.

490
00:36:35.191 --> 00:36:37.352
If you're poor and
you have no money

491
00:36:37.387 --> 00:36:43.162
and-and can't get yourself a lawyer who
really gives a shit about your case,

492
00:36:43.197 --> 00:36:45.895
you know, you're gonna die.

493
00:36:51.606 --> 00:36:53.643
<i>The Supreme Court is saying</i>

494
00:36:53.678 --> 00:36:57.346
<i>that if justice is going to be
served, it must be sue and swift.</i>

495
00:36:59.977 --> 00:37:04.716
The justice system
always defaults to certainty.

496
00:37:06.153 --> 00:37:08.417
Mr DeLuna had a trial.

497
00:37:08.452 --> 00:37:10.623
Mr DeLuna had lawyers.

498
00:37:12.596 --> 00:37:16.563
Mr DeLuna had a jury of his
peers that decided against him.

499
00:37:17.331 --> 00:37:19.269
So when you get that far along,

500
00:37:20.232 --> 00:37:22.431
and a court of criminal
appeals has said,

501
00:37:22.467 --> 00:37:24.538
"Hey, this trial is fair",

502
00:37:25.704 --> 00:37:28.245
the default position is
they have certainty on this.

503
00:37:30.014 --> 00:37:32.314
<i>The court is ordering
lower courts to grant a stay</i>

504
00:37:32.349 --> 00:37:35.681
<i>only if the appeal
has "substantial merit".</i>

505
00:37:38.949 --> 00:37:41.324
"Karen, I haven't been
a bad person all my life.

506
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:46.092
How I regret my past lifestyle.
I really do.

507
00:37:46.127 --> 00:37:50.499
If only you would have gotten to know me,
you would have wondered after a while,

508
00:37:50.534 --> 00:37:53.963
"Is this the same Carlos DeLuna
people are talking about?"

509
00:37:53.998 --> 00:37:57.967
I leave you for now.
Thinking of you. Carlos DeLuna."

510
00:38:00.477 --> 00:38:03.879
Now I was able to see not just
the cold-blooded killer,

511
00:38:03.914 --> 00:38:05.348
but a very lost person...

512
00:38:07.151 --> 00:38:13.717
lonely, and, you know, just a lost soul
who still said "I did not do this".

513
00:38:13.752 --> 00:38:19.322
And their desire for just
human kindness.

514
00:38:23.361 --> 00:38:27.131
I went back with a successive federal writ
of habeas corpus.

515
00:38:27.167 --> 00:38:29.069
It was denied.

516
00:38:29.104 --> 00:38:32.768
I think the certificate of appealability of
the Fifth Circuit was denied,

517
00:38:32.803 --> 00:38:34.540
and then the petition
for certiorari

518
00:38:34.576 --> 00:38:37.409
of the United States
Supreme Court was denied,

519
00:38:37.445 --> 00:38:40.683
and that was the end
of the game.

520
00:38:40.718 --> 00:38:41.747
It was over.

521
00:38:42.213 --> 00:38:43.518
And, uh,

522
00:38:44.684 --> 00:38:47.922
Mr DeLuna, uh,
had his execution date.

523
00:38:53.359 --> 00:38:54.793
"Karen...

524
00:38:55.933 --> 00:38:57.499
I am scared to die.

525
00:38:59.097 --> 00:39:02.933
I haven't been up to even trying
to prepare myself for this.

526
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:06.343
And if I have to die this way,

527
00:39:07.307 --> 00:39:08.941
I'll never forget you.

528
00:39:08.977 --> 00:39:12.349
I do believe in life after death,
and maybe we'll meet up there.

529
00:39:13.784 --> 00:39:15.077
Take care."

530
00:39:19.352 --> 00:39:22.392
Back then, the state of Texas held
their executions at midnight.

531
00:39:24.294 --> 00:39:30.398
They usually would transfer the defendant
from death row over to the walls unit,

532
00:39:30.433 --> 00:39:33.128
which is where the death chamber
is located.

533
00:39:35.371 --> 00:39:37.935
It's just a pale,
baby blue room.

534
00:39:39.373 --> 00:39:43.138
Laying on a gurney, the lethal
injection part will begin.

535
00:39:46.911 --> 00:39:48.946
I have been in my office at...

536
00:39:50.954 --> 00:39:56.052
11:30 at night with a bottle of
scotch waiting for a phone call...

537
00:39:57.327 --> 00:39:59.462
from the Clerk of
the Supreme Court,

538
00:40:00.060 --> 00:40:01.090
It is...

539
00:40:04.033 --> 00:40:07.762
the most helpless feeling, 'cause
about that time, all of the optimism

540
00:40:07.797 --> 00:40:10.165
is completely sucked out of you.

541
00:40:16.909 --> 00:40:21.517
At about 10:50 p.m.,
the phone rings,

542
00:40:22.616 --> 00:40:26.021
and it was the Texas Department
of Corrections.

543
00:40:26.056 --> 00:40:29.558
And I just kind of froze.

544
00:40:29.593 --> 00:40:33.223
Like, what are they calling me
for at 10:50 at night?

545
00:40:33.259 --> 00:40:38.935
And, um, they asked if I would
accept a call from Carlos DeLuna,

546
00:40:38.970 --> 00:40:40.195
and I said, "Yes, yes."

547
00:40:41.438 --> 00:40:43.440
His voice came on, and he said,
"Karen...

548
00:40:45.243 --> 00:40:46.683
they're gonna execute me,
Karen."

549
00:40:47.672 --> 00:40:51.414
I said, "Carlos, is there anything that you
really want to tell me?

550
00:40:51.449 --> 00:40:53.712
Is there anything
you need to get off your chest?"

551
00:40:53.747 --> 00:40:55.582
He knew what I was getting at,
and he said,

552
00:40:55.617 --> 00:40:59.453
"Karen, I didn't do
what they said I did.

553
00:40:59.488 --> 00:41:02.151
They're gonna execute
an innocent man.

554
00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:08.465
I'm scared, but I know
I'm gonna go to heaven."

555
00:41:09.866 --> 00:41:10.896
And...

556
00:41:13.936 --> 00:41:18.134
What do you say to a man that's gonna die
in less than two hours?

557
00:41:22.876 --> 00:41:25.141
I got a telephone call
from Carlos...

558
00:41:26.610 --> 00:41:28.485
and we talked.

559
00:41:29.453 --> 00:41:31.519
I asked him, "Can I ask you
a question?"

560
00:41:31.554 --> 00:41:34.183
And he goes, "Yes."
I said, "Did you do it?"

561
00:41:35.756 --> 00:41:37.921
He goes, "No, Manuel,
Carlos Hernandez."

562
00:41:37.956 --> 00:41:40.530
And I asked him,
"Who is Carlos Hernandez?"

563
00:41:41.527 --> 00:41:43.532
He said, "You know
who Carlos Hernandez is."

564
00:41:43.568 --> 00:41:45.568
I said, "I don't know who Carlos
Hernandez is."

565
00:41:46.601 --> 00:41:48.802
Somebody came on the phone
and said, "Wrap it up."

566
00:41:50.003 --> 00:41:53.376
You know, afterwards, I told
Carlos that I loved him...

567
00:41:53.411 --> 00:41:55.512
and that, you know...

568
00:41:57.744 --> 00:42:00.110
I knew he was gonna die
at midnight,

569
00:42:01.319 --> 00:42:03.199
and I said, "Man, I'm gonna lose
my brother."

570
00:42:03.922 --> 00:42:05.621
But you know...

571
00:42:07.687 --> 00:42:09.757
Him being strapped, injected...

572
00:42:11.523 --> 00:42:15.598
it's... something that I don't
think anybody wants to see.

573
00:42:16.731 --> 00:42:19.261
But I just wanted to do it
so he could see me and...

574
00:42:20.567 --> 00:42:25.036
knew that I was there for him.

575
00:42:26.411 --> 00:42:29.139
You know, and the helplessness
of that...

576
00:42:30.581 --> 00:42:34.082
Knowing that, you know,
he really truly may be innocent

577
00:42:34.117 --> 00:42:38.047
and there's absolutely not a damn
thing anybody can do to stop this.

578
00:42:38.082 --> 00:42:40.453
You know, Texas was just
bound and determined

579
00:42:40.488 --> 00:42:42.284
they were gonna kill this guy.

580
00:42:45.756 --> 00:42:51.433
He needed somebody to believe in him and
someone to be kind of a friend to him.

581
00:42:51.469 --> 00:42:53.596
And I think I wasn't
a very good friend

582
00:42:53.632 --> 00:42:57.272
because I didn't believe him for the
longest time. I didn't believe him.

583
00:42:57.307 --> 00:42:59.542
Even though I saw him change.

584
00:42:59.577 --> 00:43:04.306
There was a caring human being
in Carlos DeLuna.

585
00:43:07.111 --> 00:43:10.184
And so it made me question
everything.

586
00:43:10.219 --> 00:43:13.348
My whole value system and belief
system about the death penalty, but...

587
00:43:14.856 --> 00:43:18.221
A lot of lessons that, um, I've
learned through all of this.

588
00:43:19.858 --> 00:43:26.598
About how we treat fellow human
beings and how we categorise them

589
00:43:26.633 --> 00:43:29.232
and so easily throw them away.

590
00:43:33.810 --> 00:43:37.946
It forever changed my life
having met Carlos DeLuna.

591
00:44:21.853 --> 00:44:24.419
This... the phantom...

592
00:44:25.591 --> 00:44:28.390
it is the truth.

593
00:44:30.499 --> 00:44:32.130
Things that were hidden...

594
00:44:33.502 --> 00:44:35.903
or didn't get discovered before.

595
00:44:38.236 --> 00:44:40.677
So that's what we really mean
by "phantom".

596
00:44:48.346 --> 00:44:52.187
In the late '90s,
I did a series of studies

597
00:44:52.222 --> 00:44:54.119
of capital cases.

598
00:44:55.953 --> 00:44:57.936
<i>More people are executed in Texas
than anywhere else.</i>

599
00:44:57.960 --> 00:44:59.827
<i>A new study
by Columbia University</i>

600
00:44:59.863 --> 00:45:02.526
<i>finds rampant problems
within the court system.</i>

601
00:45:02.561 --> 00:45:06.796
It is very difficult to overturn a
capital judgment on that basis.

602
00:45:06.831 --> 00:45:11.004
You not only have to show that the lawyer
behaved incredibly incompetently...

603
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:13.809
Sleeping, on drugs, drinking,
whatever else it is...

604
00:45:13.844 --> 00:45:16.644
You also have to show five,
ten years after the fact

605
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:18.054
that if you'd had
a better lawyer,

606
00:45:18.078 --> 00:45:20.483
the outcome would probably
have been different.

607
00:45:20.518 --> 00:45:22.083
[reporter
<i>Governor Bush maintains</i>

608
00:45:22.118 --> 00:45:25.180
<i>no innocent people have been
put to death under his watch.</i>

609
00:45:25.215 --> 00:45:27.350
And I believe every case
has been...

610
00:45:28.592 --> 00:45:30.363
we've adequately answered
innocence and guilt,

611
00:45:30.387 --> 00:45:32.325
and everybody's had full access
to the courts.

612
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:35.865
That led us to say, "Well, let's go look
and see if there's a case

613
00:45:35.900 --> 00:45:38.999
where it looks like there was
a miscarriage of justice."

614
00:45:40.131 --> 00:45:43.502
I had a student, and he wrote up
a little memo for me

615
00:45:43.537 --> 00:45:47.502
and said, "Hey, I think this is a
good case for you to go look at."

616
00:45:48.609 --> 00:45:50.121
And the first thing
my colleague said

617
00:45:50.145 --> 00:45:53.313
was that, "This
some-other-dude-named-Carlos case?

618
00:45:53.348 --> 00:45:56.713
That's the worst possible case. I
wouldn't spend any time on it."

619
00:45:56.748 --> 00:46:01.587
Because he thought that what the
defendant was saying was so unlikely

620
00:46:01.623 --> 00:46:03.452
that it had to be made up.

621
00:46:04.661 --> 00:46:07.863
But we found another case
in Corpus Christi.

622
00:46:09.495 --> 00:46:14.463
So I did hire an investigator to go to
Corpus Christi and look at that case.

623
00:46:15.773 --> 00:46:19.775
But I said, "Look, if you have
an hour to yourself

624
00:46:19.810 --> 00:46:22.076
where you don't have something
you need to do,

625
00:46:22.111 --> 00:46:27.080
just go look and see if you
can find a Carlos Hernandez."

626
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:59.409
I get a phone call from him,
and he says to me,

627
00:47:00.683 --> 00:47:04.447
"Look, I found a record
on Carlos Hernandez."

628
00:47:10.895 --> 00:47:15.161
"He looks just like
the man they executed here."

629
00:47:16.930 --> 00:47:19.869
My god. This is the real thing.

630
00:47:21.470 --> 00:47:22.564
Carlos DeLuna...

631
00:47:23.703 --> 00:47:25.138
Carlos Hernandez.

632
00:47:31.447 --> 00:47:34.917
We wanted to learn everything we
could about this Carlos Hernandez.

633
00:47:37.653 --> 00:47:41.089
Wanda Lopez, Carlos DeLuna...

634
00:47:41.124 --> 00:47:44.058
All of these people lived in
close proximity to each other

635
00:47:44.759 --> 00:47:48.623
and an entire story unfolded.

636
00:48:02.875 --> 00:48:04.408
My name is Margie Tapia.

637
00:48:06.682 --> 00:48:08.412
His name was Carlos Hernandez.

638
00:48:11.385 --> 00:48:15.485
I used to sit outside and watch
this cute guy go by every day.

639
00:48:16.827 --> 00:48:18.620
And I was like,
'Okay, who is this guy?'

640
00:48:19.596 --> 00:48:21.727
I was a teenager.

641
00:48:21.763 --> 00:48:22.965
I liked good-looking boys.

642
00:48:24.635 --> 00:48:27.736
But come to find out, he wasn't a
good-looking boy. He was a man.

643
00:48:27.771 --> 00:48:30.038
He would go,
"Why you not in school?"

644
00:48:30.074 --> 00:48:33.239
I'm like, "'Cause I'm pregnant.
I can't go to school."

645
00:48:33.274 --> 00:48:36.545
He's like, "Huh." He goes,
"What's your mom's name?"

646
00:48:36.580 --> 00:48:38.277
And I said, "Her name is Janie."

647
00:48:39.210 --> 00:48:40.450
He used to do a lot of things

648
00:48:42.045 --> 00:48:47.682
and people wouldn't say nothing
because, er, they were afraid to.

649
00:48:48.923 --> 00:48:51.455
You just looked at him wrong,
and that's it.

650
00:48:53.297 --> 00:48:55.030
That's it.

651
00:48:55.726 --> 00:48:58.330
We dated for a while, and...

652
00:48:59.163 --> 00:49:00.970
I started living with him.

653
00:49:08.310 --> 00:49:12.410
Like, yeah, but I just look
at the house and I get scared.

654
00:49:13.817 --> 00:49:15.314
That house is a nightmare
for me.

655
00:49:17.954 --> 00:49:19.634
Everything that went inside
that room...

656
00:49:21.152 --> 00:49:22.387
He used to lock me in there.

657
00:49:23.989 --> 00:49:25.489
It was a regular thing.

658
00:49:26.123 --> 00:49:27.557
He would get home...

659
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:32.427
and then he would start
beating me and start raping me.

660
00:49:32.462 --> 00:49:35.499
It didn't take much for him
to snap.

661
00:49:37.333 --> 00:49:39.140
It would be him, me, the baby...

662
00:49:40.609 --> 00:49:43.738
and the pillows, of course,
then the knife under the pillow.

663
00:49:45.248 --> 00:49:48.050
And he would be talking to it
just like if it was a person.

664
00:49:49.217 --> 00:49:52.120
So I finally had a conversation
with my, er, sister,

665
00:49:53.756 --> 00:49:57.624
and I told her, you know, he's beating me.
I don't... I can't leave.

666
00:49:57.659 --> 00:49:59.259
I need to get out.

667
00:50:00.698 --> 00:50:02.590
She goes,
"He was sweet sometimes.

668
00:50:02.625 --> 00:50:05.100
I know that.
You've told me that many times."

669
00:50:05.997 --> 00:50:08.004
I said, "But he was
a monster too."

670
00:50:13.671 --> 00:50:17.046
My sister helped me grab
the baby's things, and I left.

671
00:50:18.074 --> 00:50:20.577
I was like, "I'm never gonna
come back again."

672
00:50:21.652 --> 00:50:23.118
And I left the neighbourhood.

673
00:50:28.691 --> 00:50:30.490
So, from there,

674
00:50:30.526 --> 00:50:35.691
the next step was to track Carlos
Hernandez's criminal record.

675
00:50:37.062 --> 00:50:38.232
It was a mile long,

676
00:50:39.801 --> 00:50:43.466
a lot of it having to do with both robbery
of convenience stores

677
00:50:43.501 --> 00:50:46.273
and violence against women
with a knife.

678
00:50:47.545 --> 00:50:50.046
Right here is the knife,

679
00:50:50.778 --> 00:50:53.209
um, that is the murder weapon

680
00:50:53.245 --> 00:50:55.477
and that the perpetrator
dropped.

681
00:50:55.512 --> 00:50:57.981
Um, it's a lock-blade
Buck knife.

682
00:50:58.017 --> 00:51:04.054
This is exactly the kind of knife that
Carlos Hernandez was arrested with

683
00:51:04.089 --> 00:51:05.854
on multiple occasions

684
00:51:05.889 --> 00:51:10.358
down to the colour of the gold
trim and the brown handle.

685
00:51:10.393 --> 00:51:13.135
He was arrested 20, 30 times,

686
00:51:13.170 --> 00:51:15.602
and on a majority of those
occasions, he had a knife,

687
00:51:15.637 --> 00:51:18.357
and this is what the knife looked like.
We've got pictures of it.

688
00:51:20.804 --> 00:51:26.508
He had this total belief
that he would not be caught.

689
00:51:26.544 --> 00:51:30.152
He was street smart,
and he was feared.

690
00:51:31.585 --> 00:51:36.591
He was able to have this power over people
in his neighbourhood.

691
00:51:50.770 --> 00:51:54.737
And I have heard that
phrase "snitches get stitches."

692
00:51:57.273 --> 00:51:58.774
Curly hair, scary.

693
00:51:59.681 --> 00:52:01.681
Bloodshot eyes all the time.

694
00:52:01.716 --> 00:52:03.080
Scary angry.

695
00:52:03.116 --> 00:52:04.483
Scary.

696
00:52:06.253 --> 00:52:11.293
I lost my mama when I was 12, and the
girlfriend my daddy brought home,

697
00:52:11.328 --> 00:52:15.164
I was jealous, and I thought
I'd go and do my own thing.

698
00:52:17.033 --> 00:52:19.135
And it just didn't
turn out right.

699
00:52:22.372 --> 00:52:27.275
And so that's what winded me
homeless and without a job.

700
00:52:28.275 --> 00:52:31.273
That's when I winded up
at Carlos's apartment,

701
00:52:31.308 --> 00:52:32.709
and I stayed with him.

702
00:52:36.114 --> 00:52:41.349
He was having trouble sleeping, and
he just had to tell me something,

703
00:52:41.384 --> 00:52:42.851
get it off his chest.

704
00:52:44.024 --> 00:52:45.788
Um...

705
00:52:45.823 --> 00:52:49.396
he said he had done something
bad, something wrong.

706
00:52:50.061 --> 00:52:51.266
And, um...

707
00:52:52.769 --> 00:52:54.269
it's just not right.

708
00:52:55.767 --> 00:52:59.868
He said he, uh,
picked up this girl in a van...

709
00:53:00.977 --> 00:53:03.777
and once he had sex with her,
he...

710
00:53:03.812 --> 00:53:05.280
he strangled her.

711
00:53:06.481 --> 00:53:10.186
That's what he told me.
Until her eyes rolled back.

712
00:53:12.955 --> 00:53:14.388
Then he also said that, um...

713
00:53:15.487 --> 00:53:18.454
he flipped her over
on her stomach...

714
00:53:18.490 --> 00:53:20.889
and carved an "X" on her back.

715
00:53:22.900 --> 00:53:24.662
From shoulder blade to buttock.

716
00:53:28.536 --> 00:53:31.537
Who? Who can do that?
Just a demon would do that.

717
00:53:46.489 --> 00:53:50.852
So it was sort of still
an age if you caught a guy

718
00:53:50.888 --> 00:53:54.088
killing children or something
like that, they'd,

719
00:53:54.123 --> 00:53:57.731
you know, put a rope around
his neck and tie him to a tree

720
00:53:57.767 --> 00:54:01.237
and get the double-barrelled shotgun,
and that would end that case.

721
00:54:02.101 --> 00:54:04.868
This is where the van
was parked,

722
00:54:04.904 --> 00:54:09.707
and so I just got my camera out
and started taking pictures.

723
00:54:19.255 --> 00:54:22.618
The subject was found
dead in her van

724
00:54:22.653 --> 00:54:25.856
in a vacant lot
in Corpus Christi.

725
00:54:25.891 --> 00:54:32.667
She has a large "X" scratched...
More scratched than cut...

726
00:54:32.702 --> 00:54:34.369
On her back.

727
00:54:35.667 --> 00:54:38.271
When you were involved
in a case like that,

728
00:54:38.307 --> 00:54:42.240
you can't help but look
for a motive.

729
00:54:42.276 --> 00:54:44.742
What kind of a murder was this?

730
00:54:50.517 --> 00:54:54.785
She was named Dahlia Sauceda.

731
00:54:56.052 --> 00:55:01.862
Carlos Hernandez's underwear
are found next to the victim.

732
00:55:01.897 --> 00:55:05.961
He was known to have been jealous of
this woman and to be angry at her.

733
00:55:07.165 --> 00:55:10.806
He was immediately a suspect
in that crime,

734
00:55:10.841 --> 00:55:14.343
but they're also checking out these
other young men that she's been with.

735
00:55:16.113 --> 00:55:19.348
And the police charge
Jesse Garza.

736
00:55:20.279 --> 00:55:21.878
Wind up in the police station.

737
00:55:22.851 --> 00:55:24.749
I have no idea what's going on.

738
00:55:26.023 --> 00:55:28.819
Until I hear that somebody
did lose their life

739
00:55:29.552 --> 00:55:31.723
and I'm being charged for it.

740
00:55:36.628 --> 00:55:39.098
My father inherited this case.

741
00:55:39.133 --> 00:55:40.902
My dad was looking at it

742
00:55:40.937 --> 00:55:44.338
and saw that the physical evidence didn't
match what the State's theory was,

743
00:55:44.373 --> 00:55:45.947
and when that happens
there's a problem.

744
00:55:45.971 --> 00:55:49.070
So, he's thinking, "I don't
think my client did this."

745
00:55:51.048 --> 00:55:53.382
The big piece of physical
evidence

746
00:55:53.417 --> 00:55:55.613
that was so important
in this case was a beer can,

747
00:55:55.649 --> 00:55:58.213
and once they finally ran
fingerprints on it,

748
00:55:58.248 --> 00:56:02.284
the fingerprint came back to
Carlos Hernandez, not Jesse Garza.

749
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:05.322
The police had the wrong guy, and they knew
who the right guy is.

750
00:56:05.357 --> 00:56:06.593
It was Carlos Hernandez.

751
00:56:07.560 --> 00:56:11.265
And he is never convicted
for this crime.

752
00:56:11.300 --> 00:56:14.128
For some reason,
they release him.

753
00:56:17.035 --> 00:56:19.405
In this case, I found that
there was no justification.

754
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:21.442
I found that Carlos
did not do this.

755
00:56:21.477 --> 00:56:24.006
In my opinion at the time,
he did not do this.

756
00:56:26.109 --> 00:56:29.143
Law enforcement knew that he was
already a murderer.

757
00:56:30.486 --> 00:56:32.224
They knew that he had killed
Dahlia Sauceda,

758
00:56:32.248 --> 00:56:34.786
and this was four years
before Wanda Lopez was killed.

759
00:56:36.894 --> 00:56:40.358
Months later, the very people who were
part of the arrest and knew all about him

760
00:56:40.393 --> 00:56:43.464
denied that he even existed.

761
00:56:43.500 --> 00:56:47.194
Accused of the same crime
in the same court

762
00:56:47.229 --> 00:56:50.436
in front of the same attorneys
using the same weapon.

763
00:56:50.472 --> 00:56:54.135
So, I mean,
he had to be on the radar.

764
00:57:11.993 --> 00:57:14.958
There's a fellow named Carlos Hernandez
who existed...

765
00:57:16.065 --> 00:57:17.730
and he was a bad guy too.

766
00:57:18.427 --> 00:57:19.468
But...

767
00:57:21.032 --> 00:57:23.670
how am I going to hear about it
if nobody tells me?

768
00:57:26.503 --> 00:57:31.876
I didn't even hear about your Carlos
Hernandez until ten, 20 years later.

769
00:57:32.943 --> 00:57:35.848
Liebman came up with this stuff
about, "Well,

770
00:57:35.883 --> 00:57:41.051
Botary, your other lawyer
in the case, he knew about it."

771
00:57:41.087 --> 00:57:43.857
And I'm like, "Really? He never
told me anything about it."

772
00:57:43.892 --> 00:57:47.526
And I... That's when I got in touch
with Ken Botary a few year...

773
00:57:47.561 --> 00:57:49.993
That was just a few years ago.
And...

774
00:57:50.931 --> 00:57:51.994
What did he say?

775
00:57:52.029 --> 00:57:53.869
He didn't remember much
of anything about it.

776
00:57:55.238 --> 00:57:58.302
And so when his name comes up
in the Wanda Lopez trial,

777
00:57:58.337 --> 00:57:59.772
what do you think?

778
00:58:01.073 --> 00:58:04.513
I... I think it's something that
needs to be looked at and, uh,

779
00:58:05.179 --> 00:58:06.482
and questioned.

780
00:58:07.850 --> 00:58:11.885
And I think that... I best recall
I told Steve it's not a phantom.

781
00:58:11.921 --> 00:58:15.920
This is a real person. This person
came up during a trial of mine,

782
00:58:17.060 --> 00:58:18.700
and I think Steve and I
talked about it.

783
00:58:19.591 --> 00:58:21.258
But Steve wasn't too concerned
about it

784
00:58:21.293 --> 00:58:24.626
because he was convinced that he
had the right person in his trial.

785
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:32.300
And he said "Hernandez"
at the time.

786
00:58:32.336 --> 00:58:35.269
It didn't occur to me that we
were talking about the same guy.

787
00:58:38.781 --> 00:58:42.944
Ken Botary allowed the other
prosecutor to tell the jury

788
00:58:42.979 --> 00:58:45.983
that Carlos Hernandez
was a phantom.

789
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:53.020
We continued the investigation,

790
00:58:53.056 --> 00:58:57.225
and we found a woman
named Dina Ybañez.

791
01:00:37.161 --> 01:00:39.261
He was telling everybody
that he did it.

792
01:00:40.362 --> 01:00:42.242
That some other guy
was taking the rap for him.

793
01:00:43.803 --> 01:00:48.006
They were friends. Him and that other
guy, Carlos DeLuna, they were friends.

794
01:00:48.838 --> 01:00:52.714
So... he said he's taking
the fall.

795
01:00:55.246 --> 01:00:59.050
Rumours, family, friends...
He killed Wanda Lopez.

796
01:01:03.389 --> 01:01:07.421
When we were investigating this crime,
everybody knew.

797
01:01:08.529 --> 01:01:10.391
Carlos Hernandez talked
about it...

798
01:01:11.568 --> 01:01:13.999
people in the neighbourhood
had seen things.

799
01:01:19.972 --> 01:01:23.105
All I heard was him talking
to Javier, and he was bragging,

800
01:01:23.140 --> 01:01:25.439
telling Javier that
he had hurt somebody,

801
01:01:25.474 --> 01:01:27.913
and at the same time,
he was playing with his knife.

802
01:01:27.948 --> 01:01:31.516
<i>Well, he was bragging to Javier,
my uncle, that</i>

803
01:01:31.552 --> 01:01:33.183
that he had hurt somebody.

804
01:01:34.425 --> 01:01:37.022
And, well, Javier didn't
believe it, you know.

805
01:01:39.390 --> 01:01:40.729
Somebody that he had hurt?

806
01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:44.260
Yes. A girl by the name
of Wanda.

807
01:01:48.969 --> 01:01:50.970
They lie about things
they have done,

808
01:01:51.968 --> 01:01:54.039
and they lie about things
they haven't done.

809
01:01:55.610 --> 01:01:58.076
He never confessed. He bragged.

810
01:01:59.209 --> 01:02:02.113
Carlos Hernandez created
this thing in his mind about

811
01:02:02.148 --> 01:02:05.116
"Oh, I'm such a badass",
bragging about this to people.

812
01:02:06.553 --> 01:02:10.558
If you look at that Carlos
Hernandez's criminal history,

813
01:02:10.593 --> 01:02:13.126
he has a history of
violence too,

814
01:02:13.162 --> 01:02:16.424
but it's against people that he has
some kind of vendetta against.

815
01:02:16.459 --> 01:02:19.493
He has a personal animosity
or grudge against them.

816
01:02:20.535 --> 01:02:22.265
He didn't know this woman
at all.

817
01:02:32.916 --> 01:02:36.381
There was this one time that
I can recall and I remember

818
01:02:36.417 --> 01:02:40.415
that me and Priscilla and my sister
Cindy were sitting on the porch.

819
01:02:41.687 --> 01:02:46.355
We overheard Carlos Hernandez
telling Javier...

820
01:02:47.328 --> 01:02:48.328
<i>that...</i>

821
01:02:49.358 --> 01:02:52.493
that he was gonna go see Wanda
at the store.

822
01:02:53.269 --> 01:02:54.803
At Diamond Shamrock.

823
01:02:56.305 --> 01:02:59.368
Carlos Hernandez would always say,
"I'm gonna go see my friend Wanda."

824
01:03:19.589 --> 01:03:22.496
We knew that there
were police tapes

825
01:03:22.531 --> 01:03:24.030
of everything that happened.

826
01:03:25.666 --> 01:03:28.134
There's a 40, 45-minute manhunt,

827
01:03:28.170 --> 01:03:31.807
all of this with police traffic
back and forth on the radio.

828
01:03:33.207 --> 01:03:37.208
And all they presented at trial
is Wanda Lopez's call.

829
01:03:37.244 --> 01:03:38.804
<i>All right,
we'll get someone over there.</i>

830
01:03:44.150 --> 01:03:46.383
We keep asking,
"Where are the other tapes?"

831
01:03:46.418 --> 01:03:50.425
"Oh, we taped over because
we didn't want to waste tape,

832
01:03:50.460 --> 01:03:51.958
so we just tape over things."

833
01:03:51.993 --> 01:03:55.927
So, we knew who the dispatcher
that night was.

834
01:03:55.963 --> 01:03:58.460
When we tracked him down
in Los Angeles,

835
01:03:58.495 --> 01:04:04.400
it turned out that he had
pirated a copy of the tape,

836
01:04:05.801 --> 01:04:11.407
and we were able to play
the entire 45-minute manhunt...

837
01:04:13.144 --> 01:04:15.983
starting with
Wanda Lopez's call.

838
01:04:20.184 --> 01:04:22.186
We can track minute by minute

839
01:04:22.221 --> 01:04:24.888
when the phone calls
from the Arsuagas come in,

840
01:04:24.923 --> 01:04:27.225
when men were seen running.

841
01:04:33.035 --> 01:04:36.603
Carlos Hernandez
was walking with my brother.

842
01:04:36.638 --> 01:04:37.758
They got to the gas station.

843
01:04:39.508 --> 01:04:42.777
My brother went in there for one
reason, and that was to buy something.

844
01:04:42.812 --> 01:04:44.407
Afterwards, go to Stella's.

845
01:04:45.875 --> 01:04:49.877
There was a call that came in about
8:00 in the evening from Wanda.

846
01:04:49.912 --> 01:04:53.647
You've got somebody outside who
doesn't look right with a knife.

847
01:05:01.231 --> 01:05:03.076
If I would see something like that,
I would get shocked.

848
01:05:03.100 --> 01:05:05.901
I would get scared, I would run.
I would say, "What the hell?"

849
01:05:10.072 --> 01:05:12.168
Things look
super different right now,

850
01:05:12.203 --> 01:05:15.669
but we were going
past the store...

851
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:18.608
He was running.

852
01:05:18.644 --> 01:05:23.283
Dark pants and a white unbuttoned
shirt that was kind of flapping.

853
01:05:26.884 --> 01:05:30.590
And I looked up, and I saw him trying
to pull her into the back room,

854
01:05:30.625 --> 01:05:32.460
and I walked towards him.

855
01:05:32.495 --> 01:05:35.256
I heard it on the radio, and I got up
from my dinner and went to look.

856
01:05:36.698 --> 01:05:38.630
And he took off to the right.

857
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:42.971
You've got police
officers all around the area.

858
01:05:44.808 --> 01:05:48.609
They're giving descriptions of what
they think could be potential suspects.

859
01:05:48.644 --> 01:05:49.644
<i>Hispanic male...</i>

860
01:05:52.815 --> 01:05:54.709
One is talking about
a flannel shirt,

861
01:05:54.744 --> 01:05:58.285
the other's talking about
a long-sleeve T-shirt untucked.

862
01:06:06.125 --> 01:06:09.026
Maybe wavy or
a little bit curly.

863
01:06:09.062 --> 01:06:10.592
I then start to make
the judgment

864
01:06:10.628 --> 01:06:13.129
that we may be talking about
more than one person here.

865
01:06:19.042 --> 01:06:21.075
I'm watching<i> Jaws,</i>
you know, in my living room.

866
01:06:22.708 --> 01:06:27.040
Hear a lot of ruckus outside, trying
to figure out what's going on,

867
01:06:27.075 --> 01:06:30.816
and I ran over to the window, and
I see one person actually running

868
01:06:30.852 --> 01:06:32.686
and ducking underneath the van.

869
01:06:32.721 --> 01:06:34.284
And then about 30 seconds later,

870
01:06:34.320 --> 01:06:37.653
I seen another person
running down the street.

871
01:06:37.689 --> 01:06:40.249
I could tell you maybe they were
Hispanic, and that was about it.

872
01:06:42.725 --> 01:06:46.330
We hear one of
the officers on foot describe

873
01:06:46.365 --> 01:06:52.568
someone jumping over a fence
at a nursing home.

874
01:07:09.686 --> 01:07:12.620
Next thing you know,
I see police officers,

875
01:07:12.655 --> 01:07:14.988
so it's kind of freaking me out
a little bit.

876
01:07:21.571 --> 01:07:24.104
And the police, who had all been
chasing Carlos Hernandez,

877
01:07:24.140 --> 01:07:28.203
all give up on him
and come and find Carlos DeLuna.

878
01:07:28.238 --> 01:07:29.803
<i>Yeah, I'm clear.</i>

879
01:07:33.247 --> 01:07:36.750
Okay, we got the guy.
This manhunt is now over.

880
01:07:39.021 --> 01:07:40.782
It was night-time, it was dark,

881
01:07:40.817 --> 01:07:43.552
and you've got someone sitting
in the back of a police car.

882
01:07:43.587 --> 01:07:45.726
You're only seeing
the top half of their body.

883
01:07:45.761 --> 01:07:48.393
I basically said that was him.

884
01:07:48.428 --> 01:07:52.166
And even though when I stood
there looking at him,

885
01:07:52.201 --> 01:07:55.434
I tried to visualise his clothes
and what he had on,

886
01:07:55.470 --> 01:07:59.673
well, when he was in the cop
car, he didn't have a shirt on.

887
01:07:59.708 --> 01:08:01.740
And so... I never said...

888
01:08:01.776 --> 01:08:05.072
I probably should've asked, "Where's
his shirt?" or, "What colour was it?"

889
01:08:05.108 --> 01:08:06.543
But I didn't.

890
01:08:07.811 --> 01:08:10.083
I picked the person
that I thought that it was.

891
01:08:10.118 --> 01:08:13.088
It was, like,
I am not a hundred per cent.

892
01:08:15.188 --> 01:08:18.488
The call is from
the police department,

893
01:08:18.524 --> 01:08:21.057
and they're wanting me
to come down to the store.

894
01:08:21.092 --> 01:08:22.856
There's been an incident.

895
01:08:24.033 --> 01:08:27.134
I remember seeing Wanda
on the stretcher,

896
01:08:27.169 --> 01:08:29.768
and they had a gentleman
in the back of the car,

897
01:08:29.804 --> 01:08:33.871
so when I came in the store, the area
behind the counter was still in...

898
01:08:33.906 --> 01:08:35.473
still in disarray.

899
01:08:36.908 --> 01:08:39.548
And I'm looking around, and they
say it's a robbery, and... and...

900
01:08:40.443 --> 01:08:43.648
And the money's there.
There was money on the floor

901
01:08:43.683 --> 01:08:46.880
there was money on the merchandise that was
behind the counter.

902
01:08:47.723 --> 01:08:49.522
This doesn't make sense.

903
01:08:49.557 --> 01:08:52.853
They said, "Okay, we got the
guy, and that's it. We're done."

904
01:08:53.961 --> 01:08:55.761
They didn't care about
anything else.

905
01:08:55.796 --> 01:09:00.465
They just wanted to close the report,
wash their hands of it and be done.

906
01:09:01.930 --> 01:09:05.140
They left and said they had
the guy, and that was it.

907
01:09:06.609 --> 01:09:07.635
Just like that.

908
01:09:07.671 --> 01:09:10.508
And then the location
was turned over to us.

909
01:09:10.543 --> 01:09:13.907
Just doesn't make any sense.
I didn't understand it.

910
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:20.221
They had the guy.
It made sense.

911
01:09:21.856 --> 01:09:24.885
The investigation just stopped
almost that night, it seemed like.

912
01:09:26.557 --> 01:09:30.792
They didn't do anything else. Why
didn't they interview more people?

913
01:09:32.034 --> 01:09:34.268
I wish I could've came forward
to do something.

914
01:09:34.303 --> 01:09:37.172
You know, to tell 'em something,
but I was too young.

915
01:09:37.972 --> 01:09:39.471
Really, to tell you the truth,

916
01:09:39.506 --> 01:09:42.573
the police officers never
even came over to the house.

917
01:09:42.608 --> 01:09:45.211
They figured the case was solved
because he was a bad guy

918
01:09:45.247 --> 01:09:47.309
and what was he doing
hiding under the car?

919
01:09:50.149 --> 01:09:52.284
Carlos Hernandez,

920
01:09:52.319 --> 01:09:54.255
he got away with it,
and they let him go.

921
01:09:55.817 --> 01:10:00.723
And, uh, Carlos Hernandez got away not
with one murder but several murders.

922
01:10:01.863 --> 01:10:03.462
I can't understand it.

923
01:10:04.661 --> 01:10:09.635
In between the 1970s
and the late 1990s,

924
01:10:09.671 --> 01:10:13.637
he's constantly in trouble, and
he's constantly getting let off.

925
01:10:15.308 --> 01:10:18.043
Every murder that this man committed,
he got away with it.

926
01:10:18.078 --> 01:10:19.578
Why did he get away with it?

927
01:10:19.613 --> 01:10:22.915
Why was other people getting
blamed for stuff that he did

928
01:10:22.950 --> 01:10:24.784
and they knew he did it?

929
01:10:24.819 --> 01:10:27.854
The thought that arose in our head was
a thought that was confirmed to us

930
01:10:27.889 --> 01:10:32.218
by criminal defence attorneys in town
and police officers whom we talked to

931
01:10:32.254 --> 01:10:36.990
which was that Carlos Hernandez was
a small-time police informant.

932
01:10:38.294 --> 01:10:39.795
Absolutely false.

933
01:10:41.096 --> 01:10:44.298
I don't think anybody could rely
on Carlos Hernandez's background

934
01:10:44.333 --> 01:10:46.472
or information.

935
01:10:46.508 --> 01:10:49.472
To my knowledge, he never
provided one bit of information,

936
01:10:49.508 --> 01:10:51.543
and I don't think he liked
the police.

937
01:10:52.510 --> 01:10:54.513
Yeah, he was obviously
an outlaw.

938
01:10:58.121 --> 01:11:00.918
He liked to have something
on everybody.

939
01:11:00.953 --> 01:11:05.425
He had something on his lawyer. He
had something on lots of people.

940
01:11:06.989 --> 01:11:10.625
He was somebody who was known to the
police, did favours for the police,

941
01:11:10.661 --> 01:11:12.960
and clearly they did some
favours for him.

942
01:11:30.386 --> 01:11:32.852
She was young,
and she had, you know,

943
01:11:32.887 --> 01:11:36.885
she had a lot of hope, she had a
future, she had a little girl, a baby.

944
01:11:39.394 --> 01:11:41.956
The little girl,
I saw her in years later and...

945
01:11:43.165 --> 01:11:45.432
she still had the pain
in her face.

946
01:11:47.902 --> 01:11:52.505
That little baby became a woman,
so, you know, time came and went.

947
01:12:00.949 --> 01:12:02.350
Carlos is right here.

948
01:12:05.518 --> 01:12:07.487
This is my brother Carlos,
right there.

949
01:12:13.226 --> 01:12:14.989
I'm doing my best, brother.

950
01:12:20.466 --> 01:12:21.906
I love you.
I know you can hear me.

951
01:12:23.532 --> 01:12:27.573
I love you, and I'm sorry for
everything that I did or.

952
01:12:30.610 --> 01:12:33.711
Like I said, I regret not being
there for him.

953
01:12:36.945 --> 01:12:38.948
And I'm sorry, you know,

954
01:12:38.983 --> 01:12:41.981
if I ever did anything to hurt
him or anything like that.

955
01:12:42.017 --> 01:12:43.977
I pray every day for forgiveness
and everything.

956
01:12:45.522 --> 01:12:49.122
Maybe I wasn't, you know, the
person that I was supposed to be.

957
01:12:50.264 --> 01:12:52.059
You know, it didn't work out
like that.

958
01:12:55.332 --> 01:12:58.472
The proper function of the law
is to establish the truth.

959
01:12:59.904 --> 01:13:03.103
And whatever the truth is, that's
what we really mean by justice.

960
01:13:04.244 --> 01:13:06.711
In this case, the truth
didn't come out.

961
01:13:08.117 --> 01:13:09.117
You know, Mexicans.

962
01:13:10.986 --> 01:13:14.147
Just terrible how they treated them. And
they didn't care. They didn't care.

963
01:13:15.987 --> 01:13:20.791
You know, if it was someone with money,
they would have done a really good job.

964
01:13:24.993 --> 01:13:26.863
I mean, that's the way
it seemed like.

965
01:13:27.630 --> 01:13:28.997
You know, the Hispanics...

966
01:13:30.270 --> 01:13:31.934
they treated them like shit.

967
01:13:33.303 --> 01:13:34.574
It was bad.

968
01:13:41.082 --> 01:13:44.782
Justice has not done as well as it
needs to be done in a lot of cases

969
01:13:45.681 --> 01:13:49.555
involving poor criminal
defendants,

970
01:13:49.590 --> 01:13:52.889
and also when the victim
is somebody who is poor

971
01:13:52.924 --> 01:13:55.595
and of no account to the police
and the prosecutors.

972
01:13:57.063 --> 01:14:00.393
That's why I'm against the death
penalty now because it's not fair.

973
01:14:00.428 --> 01:14:03.735
If it was fair, then maybe it
would be okay, but it's not fair.

974
01:14:05.139 --> 01:14:08.135
It's not a fair system.
I wish it were, but it's not.

975
01:14:10.207 --> 01:14:11.446
Nah.

976
01:14:14.676 --> 01:14:17.683
The justice system's about keeping people
from killing each other.

977
01:14:18.850 --> 01:14:21.921
Does it work perfectly?
Of course not. Nothing does.

978
01:14:21.957 --> 01:14:22.957
We're humans.

979
01:14:24.291 --> 01:14:25.823
The crooked timbre of humanity

980
01:14:27.161 --> 01:14:30.091
out of which nothing straight
can be made. Right?

981
01:14:33.402 --> 01:14:35.129
We'll let the world
be the judge.

982
01:14:39.707 --> 01:14:44.171
At the end, God's gonna see
and judge everyone.

983
01:15:02.131 --> 01:15:03.762
My name is Carroll Pickett.

984
01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:09.503
I was chaplain for the person
who was being executed,

985
01:15:09.539 --> 01:15:12.438
and I stayed with him
as long as they were there

986
01:15:12.473 --> 01:15:14.234
and walked him
into the death house.

987
01:15:16.676 --> 01:15:20.874
Carlos came in at 9:00
in the morning,

988
01:15:20.910 --> 01:15:22.913
and he... I stayed with him
all day.

989
01:15:24.186 --> 01:15:26.485
He said, "Well, I'd like
to write some letters",

990
01:15:26.521 --> 01:15:28.722
and he said,
"How am I gonna mail 'em?"

991
01:15:28.757 --> 01:15:32.359
If he mailed 'em at the prison,
they would be censored,

992
01:15:32.394 --> 01:15:33.923
so I told him
what we were gonna do

993
01:15:33.959 --> 01:15:37.730
is if he finished with 'em
before 11:30 at night,

994
01:15:37.766 --> 01:15:40.664
I'd put 'em in my pocket,
and I'll hold 'em in my pocket

995
01:15:40.700 --> 01:15:42.632
until this is over
one way or another.

996
01:15:42.667 --> 01:15:45.573
All of a sudden, he said,
he said,

997
01:15:45.608 --> 01:15:51.112
"I never had a... a father,
you know? My father died."

998
01:15:51.147 --> 01:15:55.509
He said, "I had a step-father who was a
drunk and he was horrible to all of us."

999
01:15:55.544 --> 01:15:59.950
And he said, "We're getting along so well.
Can I call you Daddy"?'

1000
01:16:01.189 --> 01:16:04.018
You know? I said,
"Yeah, that's all right."

1001
01:16:04.053 --> 01:16:06.627
"Daddy" is so much different
from "father".

1002
01:16:15.903 --> 01:16:21.675
10:00, the warden will say to me
from the death house door,

1003
01:16:21.710 --> 01:16:25.580
"It's time", and I will say,
"Are you ready to go?"

1004
01:16:27.581 --> 01:16:32.316
The executioner was
inside this wall,

1005
01:16:32.351 --> 01:16:33.984
uh, behind a pane.

1006
01:16:35.486 --> 01:16:39.253
And that was the sign to start
the first of three injections.

1007
01:16:40.726 --> 01:16:44.863
And that first injection was
supposed to put him to sleep.

1008
01:16:45.463 --> 01:16:47.767
Well, it didn't work.

1009
01:16:49.368 --> 01:16:54.771
He raised his head up and looked up at me
with those big brown eyes.

1010
01:16:54.806 --> 01:16:56.403
I don't know what he tried
to say.

1011
01:16:56.438 --> 01:16:59.342
He tried to say something,
but I don't know what it was.

1012
01:16:59.378 --> 01:17:00.648
I wish I knew.

1013
01:17:01.613 --> 01:17:04.485
And then he lay down,
put his head down,

1014
01:17:04.520 --> 01:17:09.382
and then the second injection
was started.

1015
01:17:10.456 --> 01:17:13.023
And it was supposed to...

1016
01:17:16.264 --> 01:17:18.732
paralyse his lungs.

1017
01:17:20.631 --> 01:17:22.164
And he raised up again.

1018
01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:25.800
I didn't know what was going on.
It... It's not working.

1019
01:17:25.835 --> 01:17:27.838
And then they gave him the...

1020
01:17:27.874 --> 01:17:31.371
The last injection
was to paralyse the heart.

1021
01:17:34.876 --> 01:17:36.750
It... It finally worked.

1022
01:17:37.747 --> 01:17:39.754
And I thought, you know,

1023
01:17:39.789 --> 01:17:45.759
here is one of the biggest
mistakes Texas has ever made.

1024
01:17:45.794 --> 01:17:47.959
He'd done some things
before that, he admitted to.

1025
01:17:49.362 --> 01:17:52.831
But he didn't do this one,
and they killed him anyway.

1026
01:17:52.866 --> 01:17:56.031
It's like, you know,
Texas likes to kill people

1027
01:17:56.067 --> 01:17:57.936
to show people
that killing people is wrong.

1028
01:17:59.141 --> 01:18:03.304
Well, sometimes they killed
innocent people.