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[soft music playing]
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Downloaded from
YTS.MX
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[woman] Have you ever heard
of Hillsong Church?
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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Yes, I do know
Hillsong Church.
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Hillsong is an evangelical
musical big church.
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I've heard of it,
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I think mainly
through Justin Bieber.
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It was the first church
that I actually went to
in New York City.
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I went every single Sunday.
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I know it's a very large
international community
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I know it's a very large
international community
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that's reaching
the far corners of the world
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to kind of spread the gospel.
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Come on, let's have
some praise tonight.
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[intense music playing]
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[reporter] Hillsong has grown
into one of the most
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influential mega churches
in the world.
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{\an8}They're huge now.
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{\an8}They're huge,
especially in America.
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I'm a really big fan
of the music.
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[Elle] They've had
over three billion views
on YouTube.
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They are very much
of themselves
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their own brand.
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their own brand.
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{\an8}They're global.
They're great at Instagram.
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[man] I mean,
Carl Lentz is the superstar.
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Sheep desperately
need a shepherd.
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Hillsong is
the celebrity church, right?
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{\an8}[reporter] Celebrity attendees
from Justin Bieber,
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{\an8}to Vanessa Hudgens,
to Chris Pratt.
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The music is unbelievable.
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You've got famous people
attending the church.
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It's like a rock show.
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[reporter] Leading the way
is the church's founder
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and Senior Pastor
Brian Houston.
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and Senior Pastor
Brian Houston.
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Hillsong was able to somehow
influence its way
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into some of the most
powerful circles ever.
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[Brian] Well, what an honor
to be standing
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in the White House
in the Cabinet Room.
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[soft dramatic music playing]
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{\an8}[producer] Were you surprised
when it all kind of
came crashing down?
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{\an8}It was a huge fall from grace.
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[reporter] Carl Lentz
is working on damage control.
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Nothing about Hillsong
surprises me.
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[reporter] Hillsong
appeared to be succeeding,
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building a global brand
before a dramatic unraveling.
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building a global brand
before a dramatic unraveling.
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{\an8}I swear by the Almighty God.
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{\an8}This is gonna be...
Gonna get ugly for all of us.
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[intense music playing]
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[vocalizing]
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{\an8}[upbeat music playing]
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[siren wailing]
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[siren wailing]
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[Brando] You could arrive
an hour before service
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and there would be a line
starting to form
around the block.
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We would always be
greeting people,
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{\an8}probably carrying trays
with snacks and things.
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[Brando] There was already
that excitement and buzz.
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So doors would be open.
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{\an8}You would come in
big posters saying,
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{\an8}"Welcome home. You belong.
Come as you are."
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[Richard] The first thing
you see is a welcome team.
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[Brando] They're usually
the nicest people.
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[Brando] They're usually
the nicest people.
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{\an8}You know,
"Richard, you're amazing.
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{\an8}We're so happy
to have you here.
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We can see great things
for your future.
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You know, we really love you."
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They really make you
feel welcome,
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make you feel wanted,
and make you feel good.
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[Neomi] Everyone's wearing
what they want.
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There is diversity on stage
and among the people
in the pews.
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Hillsong is a safe space
for them.
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I could be whoever I wanted.
People didn't care.
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I could be whoever I wanted.
People didn't care.
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This was gonna be a place
where I could call my home.
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I need a minute.
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That... It hurts to look back
because I was so into it.
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I was so embedded in it.
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I wanted to believe it.
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[Richard] They make you feel
so good.
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And before you know it,
you know, you...
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You're right in it
and you're committed.
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You're right in it
and you're committed.
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But unfortunately,
there's something
more sinister
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under the surface I found.
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I am...
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When I left,
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I genuinely believed
I was the problem.
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I'm sorry.
I'm kind of getting emotional.
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The beliefs
that they put in you go deep.
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They really get in your head.
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[Neomi] Now that I look back
I'm like damn
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like they're trying
to manipulate you
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into receiving
and accepting the abuse
that they're causing.
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It was traumatic,
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and it could've taken my life
if I stayed a minute longer.
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[dramatic music playing]
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[dramatic music playing]
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[birds chirping]
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My name is Tanya Levin,
and I spent my teenage years
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in the church called
Hills Christian Life Centre,
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which is the church
that became Hillsong.
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Frank Houston,
who had previously been
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the superintendent
of the Assemblies of God
in New Zealand,
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moved here in the late '70s.
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And a couple of years later
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his son Brian
and his wife Bobbie
came here, too.
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Frank had started
Sydney Christian Life Centre
in the center of Sydney
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Frank had started
Sydney Christian Life Centre
in the center of Sydney
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that he was quite
the hell fire
and brimstone preacher.
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[Frank] The world is in
for a tremendous shock.
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Jesus is gonna come suddenly.
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[Tanya] So it was all very
old school in the beginning.
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Eventually, they branched out
and Frank started another one
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{\an8}in the Hills area,
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{\an8}and he put his son
in charge of it.
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It was a really warm
community, family environment.
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There were like 300 people
when we started there
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There were like 300 people
when we started there
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and it was in
an old warehouse
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and somewhere in those
late '80s,
things really changed.
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♪ So let us dance
And praise the Lord, whoa ♪
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♪ Let us dance
And praise the Lord ♪
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Brian really wanted
to start expanding,
but we're just, you know,
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a small little
suburban church,
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we don't know
how to really reach people.
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So Brian went on a trip
to the States...
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{\an8}and made friends with a guy
called Casey Treat.
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{\an8}and made friends with a guy
called Casey Treat.
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{\an8}You can prosper in your soul.
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{\an8}You can rise above
those negatives.
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The product, that those of us
who know we are good down,
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then we are his children.
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I'm an Australian-born
journalist.
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{\an8}I've written a book
on the neo-charismatic
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{\an8}Pentecostal movement
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and I've written a lot
about Hillsong
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in its various iterations
around the world.
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The Pentecostal movement
started in Kansas
and California
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at the start
of the 20th century.
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It was people who wanted
to speak in tongues,
as was foretold in the Bible.
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It was people who wanted
to speak in tongues,
as was foretold in the Bible.
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And then in the '60s,
it was born again,
if you will,
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by a musician,
one of the founding members
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of what became
the Righteous Brothers.
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It was disaffected new ages
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who had been
at the Summer of Love
in Haight-Ashbury.
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Some people call them,
you know, hippie Jesus.
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It was about bringing
the music at the time
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and merging with religion
and saying, you know,
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it's okay to do this,
which was really quite radical
at the time.
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[man] Jim and Tammy,
air date 1086-13.
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[man] Jim and Tammy,
air date 1086-13.
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[announcer]
The PTL Television Network
presents Jim and Tammy.
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[singers] ♪ Praise the Lord ♪
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♪ See the things
That he has done ♪
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[Elle] The third wave,
which really got going in
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the '70s,
and certainly the '80s
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was much more global
and it was much more
corporate.
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It was about taking
these movements
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and making them very branded
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and understanding that church
can be done in a new way,
a modern way,
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something that people like
and enjoy.
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something that people like
and enjoy.
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So Brian realized
this is how you do it.
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{\an8}So it was all about the music
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and taking the global aspects
that the world was going in
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and putting that into church
and making people
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feel a part
of something bigger
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and understanding
it was about giving consumers
what they want.
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You know,
the customer is always right.
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While traveling
the United States,
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Brian Houston learned how
to get money out of people,
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so that they could build
the kingdom.
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So one of the ideas
of the Pentecostal movement
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So one of the ideas
of the Pentecostal movement
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is that there's
a special messenger
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{\an8}and this messenger
has been anointed by God
to bring the message,
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and some of that message
then is prosperity.
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As surely as I'm speaking
by the Spirit of God
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that is a word
for a person right now,
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that is God
penetrating your heart.
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It's burning
on the inside of you.
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And you need to make
a vow of faith
of a $1,000.
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"Oh, Bob,
couldn't you say $25,000?" No.
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Prosperity gospel
is when you accept Jesus.
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Prosperity gospel
is when you accept Jesus.
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You should be
expecting blessing
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in terms of financial
prosperity.
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You will be blessed
and you will invite
others over
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after you played,
and they will be blessed, too.
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You want it,
you're gonna get it.
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{\an8}Health, wealth, success.
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{\an8}But I'm here
to tell you tonight
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{\an8}you have chance
to raise your income.
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{\an8}Praise God.
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Brian was going,
"Wow, you can really do that?"
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I'm gonna have
some of that for me.
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And he came back with,
you know, um,
stars in his eyes.
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And he came back with,
you know, um,
stars in his eyes.
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That was where
the real change happened.
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And the church that I see
is a church of influence.
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It's a church so large in size
that the city and nation
cannot ignore it.
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[Tanya] Brian Houston released
this mission statement
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and it was titled,
"The church that I see."
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He talked about wanting
a church that filled stadiums
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and influenced cities
and was spread
around the globe.
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It's a church
growing so quickly,
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It's a church
growing so quickly,
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that buildings struggle
to contain the increase.
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The church that I see
is a church so committed
to the raising, the training,
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and empowering
of a leadership generation
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that all its ministries
are consumed with this goal.
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[dramatic music playing]
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Brian Houston was very clever
at packaging
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what his father had done
in terms of planting churches
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and being a part
of the Pentecostal movement,
but really modernizing them.
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and being a part
of the Pentecostal movement,
but really modernizing them.
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[soft music playing]
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And understanding
that it's just about,
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you know, getting more people
in the door.
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It really got going
in the early '90s
with Hillsong Worship.
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That was when they really hit
on the music angle
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and how popular that would be
and started spreading it
around Sydney and Australia.
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[man] Our fastest selling
praise and worship album is,
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God is in the House
another live recording
from Hillsong Australia.
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[Elle] Growing up in Sydney
where Hillsong started,
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I did have a friend
who invited me
to a Hillsong evening,
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which was a stadium
spectacular.
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My parents
were a bit skeptical
about letting me go,
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but this is part of the appeal
of Hillsong
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is that, well,
there are worse things
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a 15-year-old daughter can be
doing on a Saturday night.
238
00:11:17,867 --> 00:11:19,900
So they let me go
and I experienced it.
239
00:11:19,967 --> 00:11:21,567
I didn't really think
a lot at the time,
240
00:11:21,567 --> 00:11:23,567
but I saw Hillsong
come to prominence
241
00:11:23,567 --> 00:11:26,867
and realized
that I'd experience it
without really knowing.
242
00:11:26,867 --> 00:11:30,000
They had a former child star,
Darlene Zschech.
243
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:30,266
They had a former child star,
Darlene Zschech.
244
00:11:30,266 --> 00:11:31,000
That with our God,
all things are possible.
245
00:11:33,767 --> 00:11:37,567
Who helped bring
about Hillsong Worship music.
246
00:11:37,567 --> 00:11:39,266
-[upbeat music playing]
-[Darlene] Come on.
247
00:11:40,567 --> 00:11:42,400
♪ Yeah, yeah ♪
248
00:11:42,467 --> 00:11:46,066
She was very much tuned
into the musical culture
of the time
249
00:11:46,066 --> 00:11:49,567
and made good music
and Hillsong
started producing that.
250
00:11:49,567 --> 00:11:53,767
♪ Shout to the Lord
All the earth ♪
251
00:11:53,767 --> 00:11:56,066
♪ Let us sing ♪
252
00:11:56,066 --> 00:12:00,000
♪ Power and majesty,
Praise to the King ♪
253
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,000
♪ Power and majesty,
Praise to the King ♪
254
00:12:02,066 --> 00:12:05,166
Hillsong was originally
the name of the band
255
00:12:05,166 --> 00:12:07,467
and then the band,
and the music became so big
256
00:12:07,467 --> 00:12:10,667
that the church
changed its name to Hillsong.
257
00:12:10,667 --> 00:12:13,700
♪ Your love is so good ♪
258
00:12:13,767 --> 00:12:16,166
♪ Jesus ♪
259
00:12:16,166 --> 00:12:19,667
Hillsong started
producing it well
and exporting it overseas
260
00:12:19,667 --> 00:12:21,367
and the brand really took off
from there.
261
00:12:21,367 --> 00:12:24,400
[dramatic music playing]
262
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,567
[Kelsey] I grew up going
to a very big mega church.
263
00:12:35,567 --> 00:12:39,000
{\an8}I reported a story
for The FADER in 2018
on Hillsong.
264
00:12:40,967 --> 00:12:43,166
I have no idea
how much of an impact
265
00:12:43,166 --> 00:12:47,700
they had on
American evangelicalism
or even my own childhood.
266
00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:49,467
But I started looking into it
267
00:12:49,467 --> 00:12:50,767
and suddenly
all of these songs
268
00:12:50,767 --> 00:12:52,300
that I had heard
my whole life,
269
00:12:52,367 --> 00:12:54,667
I realized were written by
Hillsong in the first place.
270
00:12:54,667 --> 00:12:57,367
Their songs are better
than everyone else's
271
00:12:57,367 --> 00:13:00,000
and they can kind of
infiltrate into other churches
by having good music.
272
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,000
and they can kind of
infiltrate into other churches
by having good music.
273
00:13:01,767 --> 00:13:03,900
♪ Spirit lead me ♪
274
00:13:03,967 --> 00:13:08,000
♪ When my trust
Is without borders ♪
275
00:13:08,066 --> 00:13:12,066
♪ Let me walk
Upon the waters ♪
276
00:13:12,066 --> 00:13:16,300
♪ Wherever you would
Call me ♪
277
00:13:17,266 --> 00:13:18,300
♪ Take me deeper... ♪
278
00:13:18,367 --> 00:13:21,000
What Hillsong did
was kind of marry
279
00:13:21,066 --> 00:13:24,000
the music that they wanted
to sing in church,
280
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,300
the themes,
with contemporary music,
281
00:13:27,367 --> 00:13:30,000
so early Hillsong music,
the 2000s
sounds like 2000s pop.
282
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,000
so early Hillsong music,
the 2000s
sounds like 2000s pop.
283
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:33,367
Today's Hillsong music
sounds like Coldplay.
284
00:13:33,367 --> 00:13:37,200
♪ That's around the dawning ♪
285
00:13:37,266 --> 00:13:39,900
♪ It's cold ♪
286
00:13:39,967 --> 00:13:43,100
[Kelsey] The goal of Hillsong
is to stay current.
287
00:13:43,166 --> 00:13:46,667
It's making music
that you know
people will like,
288
00:13:46,667 --> 00:13:51,567
and instead of refurbishing
your grandma's old hymns,
it's something new and shiny.
289
00:13:51,567 --> 00:13:54,367
[singer] ♪ No more shall
They... ♪
290
00:13:54,367 --> 00:13:55,700
[Kelsey] These kind
of swells of emotion
291
00:13:55,767 --> 00:14:00,000
and huge momentous
chord progressions.
292
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:00,100
and huge momentous
chord progressions.
293
00:14:00,166 --> 00:14:01,000
[singer] ♪ I'm so tired ♪
294
00:14:04,066 --> 00:14:06,567
[Kelsey] It's made
to make you feel something.
295
00:14:06,567 --> 00:14:11,266
They want you to feel
the presence of God
within you.
296
00:14:11,266 --> 00:14:16,467
But it's easy to mistake
emotional manipulation
for a movement of God, right?
297
00:14:16,467 --> 00:14:19,600
Are you crying
because the Lord is staging
298
00:14:19,667 --> 00:14:21,166
some kind of intervention
in your life
299
00:14:21,166 --> 00:14:24,400
or are you crying
because the chord structure
is built to make you cry?
300
00:14:24,467 --> 00:14:26,567
[cheering]
301
00:14:30,266 --> 00:14:31,000
♪ You call me out
Upon the waters ♪
302
00:14:35,166 --> 00:14:38,667
♪ The great unknown ♪
303
00:14:38,667 --> 00:14:41,867
♪ Where feet may fail ♪
304
00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:47,600
So if you go to Hillsong
any week,
305
00:14:47,667 --> 00:14:49,467
there are songs that even
if you went every week
306
00:14:49,467 --> 00:14:51,400
you would have never heard
because they're new.
307
00:14:51,467 --> 00:14:54,100
They're being tested
live on the audience
308
00:14:54,166 --> 00:14:56,066
every Sunday,
which is kind of funny, right?
309
00:14:56,066 --> 00:14:58,000
You say like
you're going to worship.
310
00:14:58,066 --> 00:15:00,000
You're going to, like,
experience your faith.
311
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:00,166
You're going to, like,
experience your faith.
312
00:15:00,166 --> 00:15:01,000
Your once a week practice.
313
00:15:01,967 --> 00:15:04,867
And unbeknownst to you,
the people on stage
314
00:15:04,867 --> 00:15:07,767
who are leading you
in this like emotional worship
315
00:15:07,767 --> 00:15:10,800
are testing their new products
on you, right?
316
00:15:10,867 --> 00:15:13,367
It's kind of a weird dynamic.
317
00:15:14,767 --> 00:15:16,767
[Tanya] Music's a really huge
department,
318
00:15:16,767 --> 00:15:21,266
because it's so critical
to the hypnosis.
319
00:15:21,266 --> 00:15:23,367
The music
is completely weaponized
320
00:15:23,367 --> 00:15:27,667
for whatever
the church's needs are,
as well as financial,
321
00:15:27,667 --> 00:15:29,266
which is the aim of the game,
322
00:15:29,266 --> 00:15:30,000
is to get the money
out of the people.
323
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,000
is to get the money
out of the people.
324
00:15:31,066 --> 00:15:34,567
Hillsong has done a great job
of monetizing the music.
325
00:15:34,567 --> 00:15:38,367
It's been a tremendous revenue
source for the ministry.
326
00:15:38,367 --> 00:15:41,000
[female reporter]
Young people are drawn
to Hillsong's music.
327
00:15:41,066 --> 00:15:43,166
The church has its own
record label
328
00:15:43,166 --> 00:15:46,100
that sold 16 million albums
worldwide
329
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:48,500
and earns $100 million a year.
330
00:15:48,567 --> 00:15:51,367
It's a mammoth
amount of money.
331
00:15:51,367 --> 00:15:54,367
[soft dramatic music playing]
332
00:15:58,467 --> 00:16:00,000
[Tanya] And, you know,
it's just about growth.
333
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,000
[Tanya] And, you know,
it's just about growth.
334
00:16:01,166 --> 00:16:02,600
It's about expansion.
335
00:16:05,266 --> 00:16:10,700
They very much
wanna spread their tentacles
as far as they can.
336
00:16:10,767 --> 00:16:15,467
Brian always said,
"Without a vision,
the people perish."
337
00:16:15,467 --> 00:16:19,767
He had global expansion,
intentions upfront,
338
00:16:19,767 --> 00:16:22,767
explicit intentions
to take over the world
with his church.
339
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:27,000
[suspenseful music playing]
340
00:16:27,867 --> 00:16:31,600
Hillsong is an incredibly
successful organization.
341
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,000
{\an8}You know, they have massive
influence around the world.
342
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,700
And I can elaborate on that
if you want.
343
00:16:42,266 --> 00:16:47,667
I kind of categorized them
into six Cs.
344
00:16:47,667 --> 00:16:49,166
One, they're a Church.
345
00:16:49,166 --> 00:16:51,767
[Brian] Proverbs 4,
verse 25 says,
346
00:16:51,767 --> 00:16:53,400
"Let your eyes
look straight ahead."
347
00:16:53,467 --> 00:16:55,500
[Bruce] Then they have
the concerts.
348
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:58,567
Then CDs.
349
00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:02,900
{\an8}I would say music but I needed
to keep my alliterations.
350
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,600
They have
a leadership college.
351
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,900
Cinema, which would be
the movie and other media.
352
00:17:10,967 --> 00:17:11,900
Then they have
their conferences.
353
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:19,266
From an organizational
and marketing
354
00:17:19,266 --> 00:17:21,100
and communication standpoint,
brilliant.
355
00:17:21,166 --> 00:17:24,567
You know, listen to my music
on a Sunday.
356
00:17:24,567 --> 00:17:25,867
Come to our church.
357
00:17:25,867 --> 00:17:26,151
You like the church,
come to our conference.
358
00:17:26,151 --> 00:17:27,000
You like the church,
come to our conference.
359
00:17:27,467 --> 00:17:29,600
And they definitely feed
on each other.
360
00:17:29,667 --> 00:17:31,066
[Brian] This is a conference.
361
00:17:31,066 --> 00:17:32,667
So conference
is a conference,
362
00:17:32,667 --> 00:17:33,700
but I've always
felt like it was...
363
00:17:33,767 --> 00:17:34,800
It's a movement.
364
00:17:34,867 --> 00:17:36,467
{\an8}So I went
to the Hillsong conference
365
00:17:36,467 --> 00:17:37,867
{\an8}in Sydney, Australia.
366
00:17:37,867 --> 00:17:41,166
{\an8}And, you know,
that ticket was 500 bucks.
367
00:17:41,166 --> 00:17:43,767
And then I bought
a bunch of stuff, you know?
368
00:17:43,767 --> 00:17:46,400
So I probably spent
$1,000 plus tithing.
369
00:17:46,467 --> 00:17:49,867
Yeah, people have
just been so willing
to just keep on giving.
370
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,151
{\an8}You can go
and see Hillsong United
in a stadium tour.
371
00:17:56,151 --> 00:17:56,300
{\an8}You can go
and see Hillsong United
in a stadium tour.
372
00:17:56,367 --> 00:17:57,000
It's the same arena
that Taylor Swift plays
when she comes to town, right?
373
00:17:59,567 --> 00:18:02,767
It's a huge experience,
and it's a high
production value,
374
00:18:02,767 --> 00:18:05,000
and ticket sales
are really high
375
00:18:05,066 --> 00:18:06,100
and you can make
a lot of money there.
376
00:18:07,066 --> 00:18:09,000
[Craig] It's a
money-making machine.
377
00:18:09,066 --> 00:18:13,300
It has one purpose,
to get hold of as much
as your money as they can.
378
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:17,600
[Kelsey] Hillsong
consistently says,
379
00:18:17,667 --> 00:18:19,400
"We're not a business,
we're a church."
380
00:18:19,467 --> 00:18:23,266
But they behave exactly like
a big Fortune 500 company.
381
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:27,000
{\an8}In terms
of the business model,
382
00:18:28,367 --> 00:18:31,767
{\an8}it's treating people
as consumers.
383
00:18:34,367 --> 00:18:35,667
It's like a sales funnel,
384
00:18:35,667 --> 00:18:38,266
{\an8}where you want to get
the most amount of people
385
00:18:38,266 --> 00:18:40,567
{\an8}in the doors
at the top of the funnel,
386
00:18:40,567 --> 00:18:43,266
'cause inevitably that'll lead
to more conversions
387
00:18:43,266 --> 00:18:46,266
or more donations,
however you measure success
within your church.
388
00:18:49,967 --> 00:18:52,500
Hillsong is much more
about selling you things.
389
00:18:52,567 --> 00:18:56,151
{\an8}They sell you CDs,
obviously, first and foremost.
390
00:18:56,151 --> 00:18:56,900
{\an8}They sell you CDs,
obviously, first and foremost.
391
00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,967
They sell you
self-help courses.
392
00:18:59,967 --> 00:19:01,266
They sell you books.
393
00:19:01,266 --> 00:19:05,266
They sell you inspiration
to live in this world,
394
00:19:05,266 --> 00:19:07,000
and they're obviously
very good at it.
395
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:14,667
Brian realized that
it's all about the products
that you're creating,
396
00:19:14,667 --> 00:19:16,000
and it's all about the brand.
397
00:19:16,066 --> 00:19:18,500
He's a spiritual entrepreneur.
398
00:19:18,567 --> 00:19:23,467
He's, you know,
effectively the CEO
of a spiritual company.
399
00:19:24,767 --> 00:19:26,151
The rub is,
is it okay for us to use...
400
00:19:26,151 --> 00:19:27,000
The rub is,
is it okay for us to use...
401
00:19:29,367 --> 00:19:32,767
God as a way to profit?
402
00:19:32,767 --> 00:19:34,767
I don't have the answer,
403
00:19:34,767 --> 00:19:36,400
but we're not supposed
to make consumers,
404
00:19:36,467 --> 00:19:38,266
we're supposed
to make disciples.
405
00:19:38,266 --> 00:19:40,300
[cheering]
406
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:49,000
[soft music playing]
407
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,867
Brian Houston had his sights
on expanding globally.
408
00:19:55,867 --> 00:19:56,151
By the end of the 2000s,
409
00:19:56,151 --> 00:19:57,000
By the end of the 2000s,
410
00:19:57,467 --> 00:20:00,367
they really wanted to get
into the US market.
411
00:20:00,367 --> 00:20:03,000
So by 2010,
they made that move.
412
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,767
[Brian] We are
a visionary church
and I love it.
413
00:20:07,767 --> 00:20:09,300
And many people here,
you love it.
414
00:20:09,367 --> 00:20:11,567
But not everybody loves it.
415
00:20:11,567 --> 00:20:14,767
Your dream is gonna threaten
some people.
416
00:20:14,767 --> 00:20:16,767
And I really
genuinely believe
417
00:20:16,767 --> 00:20:18,500
the Holy Spirit
put it in my heart
418
00:20:18,567 --> 00:20:20,867
that the day would come
when he would give me
419
00:20:20,867 --> 00:20:25,567
and give us, Hillsong Church,
influence in America.
420
00:20:25,567 --> 00:20:26,151
And I just couldn't see
how that could happen.
421
00:20:26,151 --> 00:20:27,000
And I just couldn't see
how that could happen.
422
00:20:27,266 --> 00:20:29,200
I felt like a speck.
423
00:20:29,266 --> 00:20:32,300
This is a country
of over 300 million people.
424
00:20:32,367 --> 00:20:33,800
But I've learned
to trust God.
425
00:20:41,867 --> 00:20:44,767
[female reporter]
One wildly popular
megachurch from Australia
426
00:20:44,767 --> 00:20:47,100
is making its mark
here in the United States.
427
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:49,100
[upbeat music playing]
428
00:20:51,667 --> 00:20:55,467
[Hannah] In New York,
you had, you know,
the backdrop of the city
429
00:20:55,467 --> 00:20:56,151
and you were also able
to rent big venues
and have the services there.
430
00:20:56,151 --> 00:20:57,000
and you were also able
to rent big venues
and have the services there.
431
00:21:01,467 --> 00:21:04,467
{\an8}Hillsong's main venue
in New York City
as a concert venue
432
00:21:04,467 --> 00:21:05,867
in Manhattan, Irving Plaza.
433
00:21:07,266 --> 00:21:08,900
{\an8}My name is Janice Lagata.
434
00:21:08,967 --> 00:21:12,567
{\an8}I was a member of Hillsong NYC
for seven years, I think.
435
00:21:12,567 --> 00:21:16,367
{\an8}And this is where
we first had church.
436
00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:19,800
On Saturday night,
there'd be a concert.
437
00:21:19,867 --> 00:21:22,800
So on Sunday morning,
it was just basically
coming in early,
438
00:21:22,867 --> 00:21:26,066
turning this bar,
this nightclub into a church.
439
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,767
There would be a long line
going that way,
440
00:21:29,767 --> 00:21:32,967
at least,
till the end of the block
and usually wrapping around.
441
00:21:32,967 --> 00:21:35,867
And so having
that kind of line there
442
00:21:35,867 --> 00:21:38,400
and, you know,
at a venue like this,
443
00:21:38,467 --> 00:21:40,100
it looks like
it's something cool.
444
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:42,767
It's New York
and everybody wants to be
445
00:21:42,767 --> 00:21:43,900
a part of whatever
is going on.
446
00:21:43,967 --> 00:21:45,000
So a lot of people...
447
00:21:45,066 --> 00:21:46,367
I mean,
just the curiosity, yeah.
448
00:21:46,367 --> 00:21:47,300
It definitely worked.
449
00:21:51,667 --> 00:21:53,266
You know,
it's very interesting
450
00:21:53,266 --> 00:21:55,000
when people talk about,
you know,
451
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,151
planting a church
in the middle
of New York City.
452
00:21:56,151 --> 00:21:57,000
planting a church
in the middle
of New York City.
453
00:21:57,567 --> 00:22:00,166
Literally, a very small
Christian population.
454
00:22:00,767 --> 00:22:02,667
So why?
455
00:22:02,667 --> 00:22:05,066
Well, there may not be
many Christians,
456
00:22:05,066 --> 00:22:06,667
but there's certainly
plenty of sinners.
457
00:22:06,667 --> 00:22:08,367
[upbeat music playing]
458
00:22:11,166 --> 00:22:12,867
[sirens wailing]
459
00:22:12,867 --> 00:22:16,600
{\an8}They find people
who are looking for answers,
460
00:22:16,667 --> 00:22:18,867
{\an8}looking for...
Having personal struggles
461
00:22:18,867 --> 00:22:22,967
and sought those people out
and recruited them.
462
00:22:22,967 --> 00:22:25,667
So what happens is,
to the non-Christian
463
00:22:25,667 --> 00:22:26,151
or the fringe Christian,
if you will,
464
00:22:26,151 --> 00:22:27,000
or the fringe Christian,
if you will,
465
00:22:27,867 --> 00:22:30,500
the non-believer
who gets dragged to church
466
00:22:30,567 --> 00:22:33,800
by his or her friend
to listen to this music
467
00:22:33,867 --> 00:22:36,166
and then this wonderful
motivational speech,
468
00:22:36,166 --> 00:22:38,467
they're like,
"Oh, this is Christianity.
This is easy.
469
00:22:43,266 --> 00:22:44,133
This is...
470
00:22:44,133 --> 00:22:46,166
You know,
this is cool church,
471
00:22:46,166 --> 00:22:50,166
where we all gather together
as a community
472
00:22:50,166 --> 00:22:52,300
to where you'll have to deal
with your sin
473
00:22:52,367 --> 00:22:54,166
because no one
really ask about it."
474
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,000
That sounds good
to young people.
475
00:23:00,667 --> 00:23:03,200
[woman] Hillsong have
good worship music.
476
00:23:03,266 --> 00:23:06,367
I think it's really
approachable.
477
00:23:06,367 --> 00:23:09,700
Like it's not
very in your face,
like hymns and songs.
478
00:23:09,767 --> 00:23:11,300
Like it's very easy
to get into.
479
00:23:11,367 --> 00:23:14,667
I used to go to Hillsong.
I went to Hillsong
for about a year.
480
00:23:14,667 --> 00:23:16,000
And it was like...
481
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,600
I wasn't
that connected spiritually,
482
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,100
but I sort of went into it,
like, "Okay, it's like
a really dope TED Talk,"
483
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:23,400
and I would cry
every single time,
484
00:23:23,467 --> 00:23:25,467
but it was a really
life-changing experience.
485
00:23:25,467 --> 00:23:26,151
I actually used to go
to some of their events
when I was younger
486
00:23:26,151 --> 00:23:27,000
I actually used to go
to some of their events
when I was younger
487
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,700
and going through
my life crisis.
488
00:23:31,767 --> 00:23:33,800
It's very emotional,
I feel like,
489
00:23:33,867 --> 00:23:36,000
for a lot of people,
and that really like...
490
00:23:36,066 --> 00:23:38,266
Even if you're just kind of
there and unsure of things...
491
00:23:38,266 --> 00:23:39,800
Which I was young.
492
00:23:39,867 --> 00:23:42,367
I was looking for, you know,
community and stuff like that.
493
00:23:42,367 --> 00:23:46,400
It can be really like
addicting in the best sense
of the word.
494
00:23:48,867 --> 00:23:52,700
[Brando] Hillsong at the time
that they were starting
the New York plant,
495
00:23:52,767 --> 00:23:56,151
{\an8}I knew Hillsong itself
was like anti-homosexual,
496
00:23:56,151 --> 00:23:57,000
{\an8}I knew Hillsong itself
was like anti-homosexual,
497
00:23:57,667 --> 00:24:00,266
the no sex before marriage,
all those things.
498
00:24:00,266 --> 00:24:02,300
I knew that they were
that still,
499
00:24:02,367 --> 00:24:04,700
but it was always
about purpose.
500
00:24:04,767 --> 00:24:07,467
It was always about
trying to fulfill your dreams
501
00:24:07,467 --> 00:24:10,667
and getting people
of my age group,
502
00:24:10,667 --> 00:24:13,667
which was early 20s,
early mid-20s,
503
00:24:13,667 --> 00:24:16,200
to serve one another,
serve your community.
504
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:20,000
That right there was exactly
what I needed
505
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,667
for social interaction
was to be at a church,
506
00:24:23,667 --> 00:24:25,266
a megachurch,
that's full of people
507
00:24:25,266 --> 00:24:26,151
and getting connected
that way.
508
00:24:26,151 --> 00:24:26,467
and getting connected
that way.
509
00:24:27,567 --> 00:24:30,867
Another thing that Hillsong
has done really well
510
00:24:30,867 --> 00:24:32,967
is what
I call nightclub rules.
511
00:24:32,967 --> 00:24:34,367
They're very good
at understanding
512
00:24:34,367 --> 00:24:36,166
that to get young men
into a church,
513
00:24:36,166 --> 00:24:38,467
it's very handy to have
a lot of young women.
514
00:24:38,467 --> 00:24:42,567
They're very good in saying,
"Hey, this is church
done our way.
515
00:24:42,567 --> 00:24:46,266
This is different to what your
grandmother's church is.
516
00:24:46,266 --> 00:24:47,700
You know,
if you don't like it,
that's cool,
517
00:24:47,767 --> 00:24:49,667
but just come along
and enjoy yourself."
518
00:24:49,667 --> 00:24:51,667
And that really worked out.
519
00:24:55,767 --> 00:24:56,151
[Ben] It goes back
to demographics.
It goes back to marketing.
520
00:24:56,151 --> 00:24:57,000
[Ben] It goes back
to demographics.
It goes back to marketing.
521
00:25:00,166 --> 00:25:02,700
It goes back
to a well-thought-out
business plan.
522
00:25:07,567 --> 00:25:12,367
The people
that the system benefits
really, really get rewarded.
523
00:25:12,367 --> 00:25:16,467
You know,
if you're a charismatic
and outgoing person who's...
524
00:25:16,467 --> 00:25:18,500
You know, who can really bring
the crowds in
525
00:25:18,567 --> 00:25:20,066
and get the money
out of people.
526
00:25:20,066 --> 00:25:22,467
You're gonna be
very successful in Hillsong,
527
00:25:22,467 --> 00:25:25,700
and that's what happened
in the case with Carl Lentz.
528
00:25:25,767 --> 00:25:26,151
{\an8}We're pretty confident
you've never met a pastor
like Carl Lentz.
529
00:25:26,151 --> 00:25:27,000
{\an8}We're pretty confident
you've never met a pastor
like Carl Lentz.
530
00:25:29,166 --> 00:25:30,500
{\an8}GMA cover story, Carl Lentz.
531
00:25:30,567 --> 00:25:32,100
-[reporter 1] Carl Lentz.
-[reporter 2] Carl Lentz.
532
00:25:32,166 --> 00:25:33,767
{\an8}-Can I get an amen?
-Amen.
533
00:25:33,767 --> 00:25:36,266
{\an8}-Please welcome...
-[woman] Pastor Carl Lentz.
534
00:25:36,266 --> 00:25:38,266
[cheers and applause]
535
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,000
{\an8}My name is Carl Lentz.
536
00:25:41,867 --> 00:25:44,200
{\an8}I pastor Hillsong
New York City.
537
00:25:46,266 --> 00:25:49,166
I'm from Virginia.
Not everybody
affiliated with us,
538
00:25:49,166 --> 00:25:51,100
you know,
Hillsong, is Australian.
539
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:54,767
[Elle] Carl Lentz
came out from America
540
00:25:54,767 --> 00:25:58,867
and trained
at Hillsong College
when he was younger.
541
00:25:58,867 --> 00:26:03,567
{\an8}Brian Houston had his sights
on global expansion
for 30 years now.
542
00:26:03,567 --> 00:26:05,667
And I think
when he saw Carl Lentz,
543
00:26:05,667 --> 00:26:07,367
he realized
he'd hit the jackpot.
544
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,138
{\an8}Carl does have this X factor.
545
00:26:10,138 --> 00:26:11,000
{\an8}Carl does have this X factor.
546
00:26:11,667 --> 00:26:13,867
I have gum
'cause I break rules.
547
00:26:13,867 --> 00:26:15,767
I'm not supposed to have gum
but I do it anyway.
548
00:26:15,767 --> 00:26:19,367
[Ben] He's in shape.
He's attractive.
549
00:26:19,367 --> 00:26:21,867
{\an8}I was showing my friend
a photo of Carl
550
00:26:21,867 --> 00:26:23,367
{\an8}when I first started
reporting on Hillsong
551
00:26:23,367 --> 00:26:25,467
{\an8}and she thought he was
from the Jersey Shore.
552
00:26:25,467 --> 00:26:28,467
I mean, he's clearly a man
who cares a lot about his body
553
00:26:28,467 --> 00:26:31,567
and his presentation
and his appearance.
554
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:34,767
He dresses well.
555
00:26:34,767 --> 00:26:39,000
He was always about
the tattoos,
the trendy stubble, jeans,
556
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,138
leather jacket,
that sort of thing,
557
00:26:40,138 --> 00:26:40,667
leather jacket,
that sort of thing,
558
00:26:40,667 --> 00:26:41,000
{\an8}and it shows a different way
of doing things
559
00:26:42,867 --> 00:26:47,400
{\an8}and it makes you feel that
your belief system is valid
in the modern world.
560
00:26:47,467 --> 00:26:49,266
But this is the way
you dress normally and--
561
00:26:49,266 --> 00:26:50,767
No, I normally have
a collar and robe.
562
00:26:50,767 --> 00:26:52,266
-You do? Uh-huh.
-No, I'm kidding.
563
00:26:52,266 --> 00:26:53,867
-This is it.
-[laughter]
564
00:26:53,867 --> 00:26:58,066
{\an8}He smiled a lot.
It was very, you know, smooth.
565
00:26:58,066 --> 00:27:00,767
[Craig] He was the face,
very good-looking guy.
566
00:27:00,767 --> 00:27:03,266
You know, he was
a very, very charming guy.
567
00:27:03,266 --> 00:27:05,567
Had beautiful wife,
beautiful children.
568
00:27:05,567 --> 00:27:07,166
It was just like,
wow, this...
569
00:27:07,166 --> 00:27:09,700
You know, this guy is...
He's really something.
570
00:27:09,767 --> 00:27:10,138
No, I'm not the same.
I don't think the same.
571
00:27:10,138 --> 00:27:11,000
No, I'm not the same.
I don't think the same.
572
00:27:11,266 --> 00:27:12,767
I don't talk the same.
And I don't know
573
00:27:12,767 --> 00:27:15,166
if greatness is in my future,
but I do know
574
00:27:15,166 --> 00:27:17,100
that I feel God's hand
on my life
575
00:27:17,166 --> 00:27:19,667
and I'm trying to find ways
to tell people about it.
576
00:27:21,467 --> 00:27:24,567
Carl is a very, very
charismatic person on stage.
577
00:27:24,567 --> 00:27:26,467
I mean, did you all
watch the royal wedding,
578
00:27:26,467 --> 00:27:28,000
a couple of months back?
Anybody?
579
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,200
I didn't either because we,
580
00:27:29,266 --> 00:27:31,166
in America, you know,
we have one king.
581
00:27:31,166 --> 00:27:32,767
His name is Jesus.
Carl, get over it.
582
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,166
{\an8}Sometimes it's like you're
acting a fool a little bit,
but it's totally fine.
583
00:27:37,166 --> 00:27:38,667
{\an8}Like it makes you feel
more comfortable
584
00:27:38,667 --> 00:27:40,100
when someone
is being goofy on stage
585
00:27:40,166 --> 00:27:41,000
or cool or suave
or whatever it is.
586
00:27:42,367 --> 00:27:44,467
He had a way
of like connecting
587
00:27:44,467 --> 00:27:47,000
and making people
in the audience feel at ease.
588
00:27:47,066 --> 00:27:53,800
He brought a very fresh,
charismatic, fiery energy.
589
00:27:53,867 --> 00:27:56,800
I can actually embrace
the teachings of Jesus.
590
00:27:56,867 --> 00:28:00,767
I can embrace his grace.
Where are you sitting at?
591
00:28:00,767 --> 00:28:03,567
Are you hand shaking yourself
in your sleeping roll?
592
00:28:03,567 --> 00:28:07,200
Carl clearly changed the way
593
00:28:07,266 --> 00:28:09,767
that many of us saw
how church could be done.
594
00:28:09,767 --> 00:28:10,138
{\an8}[female reporter]
And some New Yorkers
can't seem to get enough
595
00:28:10,138 --> 00:28:11,000
{\an8}[female reporter]
And some New Yorkers
can't seem to get enough
596
00:28:12,567 --> 00:28:15,266
{\an8}of their unlikely pastor.
597
00:28:15,266 --> 00:28:20,166
Carl Lentz, I mean,
he's drawing people in
to Hillsong New York.
598
00:28:20,166 --> 00:28:22,000
You should see that line
on a Sunday morning.
599
00:28:22,066 --> 00:28:25,700
So Hillsong East Coast
YouTube.
Subscribe if you haven't yet.
600
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:28,567
But let's face it,
601
00:28:28,567 --> 00:28:30,667
they're not coming there
for sound doctrine.
602
00:28:30,667 --> 00:28:32,567
They're not coming there
to be fed the Word.
603
00:28:32,567 --> 00:28:34,700
They're coming there
to see the cool Carl Lentz.
604
00:28:35,967 --> 00:28:37,667
Ain't it amazing
what God has done?
605
00:28:38,767 --> 00:28:40,138
And I have a feeling
that the best is yet to come.
606
00:28:40,138 --> 00:28:41,000
And I have a feeling
that the best is yet to come.
607
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,000
[woman] I don't like to say
like celebrity pastors,
608
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,100
but I do feel like there is
that kind of celebrity pastor
609
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:50,800
environment that
we're living in right now.
610
00:28:50,867 --> 00:28:52,367
But I found out about Carl
611
00:28:52,367 --> 00:28:55,600
and knew that I wanted
to attend this church
when I came to go to NYU.
612
00:28:55,667 --> 00:28:58,700
That guy was iconic.
It was the glasses.
613
00:28:58,767 --> 00:29:00,900
[laughs] Like he just
was like really...
614
00:29:00,967 --> 00:29:02,767
He was really confident,
but you can tell that
615
00:29:02,767 --> 00:29:04,567
it was coming from like
a super authentic place.
616
00:29:04,567 --> 00:29:07,900
Like he was someone
that was genuine and he...
617
00:29:07,967 --> 00:29:10,138
He'd been through [bleep]
but he had confidence
and he could get you engaged.
618
00:29:10,138 --> 00:29:11,000
He'd been through [bleep]
but he had confidence
and he could get you engaged.
619
00:29:12,767 --> 00:29:15,500
I mean, personally, yeah,
it was cool
when other pastors came,
620
00:29:15,567 --> 00:29:17,667
but when it was Carl,
I was like...
621
00:29:18,767 --> 00:29:21,767
"I'm glad I came
to the 7:00 p.m.," you know?
622
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,200
A few years ago,
I started an Instagram account
623
00:29:29,266 --> 00:29:34,166
showing megachurch pastors
wearing expensive sneakers.
624
00:29:35,767 --> 00:29:38,567
I noticed that there were
a whole slew of pastors
625
00:29:38,567 --> 00:29:40,138
and worship leaders
that were wearing
626
00:29:40,138 --> 00:29:40,166
and worship leaders
that were wearing
627
00:29:40,166 --> 00:29:41,000
the most expensive
streetwear out there,
628
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:44,800
Supreme, Off-White,
Jordan Collabs,
629
00:29:44,867 --> 00:29:49,066
Gucci, Louis Vuitton,
all these incredibly
expensive brands.
630
00:29:50,667 --> 00:29:53,266
And I called it
preachersnsneakers.
631
00:29:53,266 --> 00:29:55,767
It was not meant
to do anything
632
00:29:55,767 --> 00:29:59,300
{\an8}other than just to
make your friends laugh
for a second and move on.
633
00:29:59,367 --> 00:30:03,000
And then in four weeks,
I had 100,000 followers.
634
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,967
So I'm just
in the middle of this,
watching this account grow,
635
00:30:05,967 --> 00:30:09,066
not knowing
what I stepped into,
but knowing that there was
636
00:30:09,066 --> 00:30:10,138
something important happening
because people
were freaking out.
637
00:30:10,138 --> 00:30:11,000
something important happening
because people
were freaking out.
638
00:30:16,166 --> 00:30:18,500
I think that everybody
just had this
639
00:30:18,567 --> 00:30:20,800
thought in their mind, like,
"Hey, it seems like
640
00:30:20,867 --> 00:30:23,900
{\an8}these guys are getting rich
off of the gospel,"
641
00:30:23,967 --> 00:30:26,066
{\an8}or, "It seems like these guys
642
00:30:26,066 --> 00:30:28,900
{\an8}are just building
their own brand
643
00:30:28,967 --> 00:30:30,367
while also asking
for donations,"
644
00:30:30,367 --> 00:30:32,166
or, "Like it seems like
these guys are
645
00:30:32,166 --> 00:30:35,667
making serious cheddar
off of a role
646
00:30:35,667 --> 00:30:38,567
that is funded
by sacrificial donations
647
00:30:38,567 --> 00:30:40,138
of people that are trying
to further the kingdom."
648
00:30:40,138 --> 00:30:41,000
of people that are trying
to further the kingdom."
649
00:30:41,867 --> 00:30:45,567
And so the sneakers
were just the way into that.
650
00:30:47,567 --> 00:30:49,567
My first post
about Carl Lentz
651
00:30:49,567 --> 00:30:51,266
was a picture
from his Instagram
652
00:30:51,266 --> 00:30:55,600
where he's wearing some
Nike Air Fear of God sneakers,
653
00:30:55,667 --> 00:30:59,266
and the shoes, at the time,
were reselling for like $800.
654
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:03,266
{\an8}And then I posted
another picture of him
655
00:31:03,266 --> 00:31:06,867
wearing a Supreme
x Louis Vuitton hoodie.
656
00:31:06,867 --> 00:31:08,967
{\an8}And what do you do in this
conference, hanging out?
657
00:31:08,967 --> 00:31:10,138
{\an8}Yeah, we've been hanging.
658
00:31:10,138 --> 00:31:10,266
{\an8}Yeah, we've been hanging.
659
00:31:10,266 --> 00:31:11,000
{\an8}Wearing Supreme sweaters.
660
00:31:11,667 --> 00:31:14,600
{\an8}-Just wearing sweaters.
-Just living the dream.
661
00:31:14,667 --> 00:31:17,200
{\an8}-You've been living the dream,
honestly, right?
-We have been.
662
00:31:17,266 --> 00:31:19,266
That hoodie, at the time,
663
00:31:19,266 --> 00:31:21,467
I think was
on the resale market
664
00:31:21,467 --> 00:31:23,567
for like $10,000 or $15,000.
665
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:26,100
The prices were insane.
666
00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:30,700
I'm a big fan of my church.
667
00:31:30,767 --> 00:31:33,467
And even though it's got
like 10,000 members,
668
00:31:33,467 --> 00:31:35,467
they're transparent
about their money.
669
00:31:35,467 --> 00:31:39,000
And I think that should be
the minimum expectation
670
00:31:39,066 --> 00:31:40,138
of a church that's bringing in
$100 million a year.
671
00:31:40,138 --> 00:31:41,000
of a church that's bringing in
$100 million a year.
672
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,166
I'm pointing out the standard
and saying,
673
00:31:47,166 --> 00:31:49,767
"Collectively,
are we all okay with this?
674
00:31:49,767 --> 00:31:52,867
As Christians specifically,
are we..."
675
00:31:52,867 --> 00:31:54,500
Maybe this is the best way
to do church.
676
00:31:54,567 --> 00:31:57,467
Like maybe this
is the best way
to treat our pastors,
677
00:31:57,467 --> 00:32:00,100
by showering them with gifts
and private jets
678
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:03,266
and courtside seats
and all that kind of stuff.
679
00:32:03,266 --> 00:32:09,667
But have you ever...
questioned if it actually is
the best way?
680
00:32:09,667 --> 00:32:10,138
{\an8}And people would
get mad at me for that.
681
00:32:10,138 --> 00:32:11,000
{\an8}And people would
get mad at me for that.
682
00:32:18,266 --> 00:32:19,667
"So I'm sure
that all the money
683
00:32:19,667 --> 00:32:21,767
that you're profiting
from assassinating pastors
684
00:32:21,767 --> 00:32:25,367
and Christian leaders
is all being tithed to God,
huh, Ben?
685
00:32:25,367 --> 00:32:27,266
I'm sure that God
isn't watching
686
00:32:27,266 --> 00:32:31,166
or keeping record of your
angelic Lucifer-like actions
and healing words."
687
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:38,100
There was one guy,
he wanted to fight me
688
00:32:38,166 --> 00:32:40,138
over the fact that I had
posted about Brian Houston
689
00:32:40,138 --> 00:32:41,000
over the fact that I had
posted about Brian Houston
690
00:32:41,667 --> 00:32:44,066
wearing a pair
of $500 Gucci sneaks
691
00:32:44,066 --> 00:32:45,467
on his own TV show.
692
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:51,166
{\an8}I think it was a good picture
about the loyalty
693
00:32:51,166 --> 00:32:55,367
that some of the people
that go to Hillsong
694
00:32:55,367 --> 00:32:59,867
displayed to the team
or to the people
that were at the top.
695
00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:05,467
Carl reached out to me
through a mutual friend.
696
00:33:05,467 --> 00:33:08,767
He basically indicated like,
"Hey, Carl will be open
to talking with you."
697
00:33:08,767 --> 00:33:10,138
I ran this account anonymously
for two years.
698
00:33:10,138 --> 00:33:10,767
I ran this account anonymously
for two years.
699
00:33:10,767 --> 00:33:11,000
Most people
didn't know who I was.
700
00:33:12,667 --> 00:33:15,266
Every news agency
is calling me,
trying to figure out who I am.
701
00:33:15,266 --> 00:33:16,667
The New York Times
is saying like,
702
00:33:16,667 --> 00:33:18,266
"Hey, you know, we're
the newspaper of records.
703
00:33:18,266 --> 00:33:20,100
This would be a good time
for you to reveal
your identity,"
704
00:33:20,166 --> 00:33:21,567
and I passed.
705
00:33:21,567 --> 00:33:23,767
The Today show asked me
to come on and I passed.
706
00:33:23,767 --> 00:33:29,000
But I'll never forget this
when Carl and I
got on the phone,
707
00:33:29,066 --> 00:33:32,000
the first thing
that he said to me was like,
708
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,467
"So who am I talking with,
man?"
709
00:33:33,467 --> 00:33:35,066
I mean,
let's level with each other."
710
00:33:35,066 --> 00:33:37,166
I just said, "My name is Ben."
711
00:33:38,467 --> 00:33:39,467
And so he got my name.
712
00:33:39,467 --> 00:33:40,138
I somehow trusted him
713
00:33:40,138 --> 00:33:41,000
I somehow trusted him
714
00:33:43,767 --> 00:33:47,266
from the first moment we spoke
and I think that's...
715
00:33:47,266 --> 00:33:50,667
I guess,
that's just like a testament
to how good he is with people.
716
00:33:52,967 --> 00:33:54,567
So we had a real conversation
on the phone.
717
00:33:54,567 --> 00:33:56,100
He texted me a few times.
718
00:33:56,166 --> 00:33:58,900
He kind of like
went back and forth
719
00:33:58,967 --> 00:34:01,900
between like, "Hey, I disagree
with what you're doing.
720
00:34:01,967 --> 00:34:06,400
Basically,
like it's an unfair spotlight
to put on people,"
721
00:34:06,467 --> 00:34:09,867
and I thought that was fair,
722
00:34:09,867 --> 00:34:10,138
but at the same time,
he leveled with me.
723
00:34:10,138 --> 00:34:11,000
but at the same time,
he leveled with me.
724
00:34:12,166 --> 00:34:14,400
He was like, "Hey, I get it.
I get the question.
725
00:34:14,467 --> 00:34:17,367
I get, you know,
why people are upset.
I've been asked this before.
726
00:34:17,367 --> 00:34:19,266
Like I've been asked
worst things.
That kind of thing.
727
00:34:19,266 --> 00:34:22,066
Now, it's like anything,
728
00:34:22,066 --> 00:34:25,266
when you humanize somebody,
it makes it a little harder
729
00:34:25,266 --> 00:34:28,767
to treat them the same way
as you were before online.
730
00:34:28,767 --> 00:34:31,600
As a guy that feels things,
like I...
731
00:34:31,667 --> 00:34:33,000
That made me more
conflicted about it.
732
00:34:34,967 --> 00:34:38,000
[mellow music playing]
733
00:34:38,066 --> 00:34:40,138
{\an8}In the early days,
being a stage manager,
734
00:34:40,138 --> 00:34:41,000
{\an8}In the early days,
being a stage manager,
735
00:34:42,266 --> 00:34:45,567
{\an8}I was one of the people
he just saw all the time.
736
00:34:45,567 --> 00:34:48,200
So we just kind of clicked
and... I don't know.
737
00:34:48,266 --> 00:34:50,500
There's something about
when he shook my hand.
738
00:34:50,567 --> 00:34:53,367
The way he looks at you,
I was like, "Oh, okay.
739
00:34:53,367 --> 00:34:54,667
Like I'd follow this guy
anywhere."
740
00:34:54,667 --> 00:34:58,266
Like he just seems so,
so genuine.
741
00:34:59,567 --> 00:35:02,100
There are just some people
who just have that thing
742
00:35:02,166 --> 00:35:05,467
where they can just connect
with people really well,
and he's got that.
743
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:10,138
I think people
can get into preaching
for the right reasons
744
00:35:10,138 --> 00:35:10,700
I think people
can get into preaching
for the right reasons
745
00:35:10,767 --> 00:35:11,000
and with the best
of intentions.
746
00:35:12,367 --> 00:35:15,367
But getting the fame
and getting the attention,
747
00:35:15,367 --> 00:35:18,100
as a species, like we are not
good with power.
748
00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:19,367
You can keep your new normal.
749
00:35:19,367 --> 00:35:21,166
I'm going after
supernatural revival.
750
00:35:21,166 --> 00:35:24,400
I'm not gonna stop my own
growth until I get there.
751
00:35:24,467 --> 00:35:26,166
Like power corrupts.
752
00:35:26,166 --> 00:35:28,100
I will not slow down.
753
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:31,567
[upbeat music playing]
754
00:35:36,967 --> 00:35:38,767
[Tanya] Carl Lentz
was a very young man
755
00:35:38,767 --> 00:35:41,266
{\an8}when he studied
at Bible college.
756
00:35:41,266 --> 00:35:43,567
{\an8}I believe he was 21 years old.
757
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,767
You know, he was very quickly
brought into this system
758
00:35:48,767 --> 00:35:52,600
because Brian Houston
can profile people so well
759
00:35:52,667 --> 00:35:57,867
and can tell, you know,
who's gonna play the game
and who's gonna resist it.
760
00:35:57,867 --> 00:35:59,727
{\an8}Carl was able to break
into these fears
761
00:35:59,727 --> 00:36:00,000
{\an8}Carl was able to break
into these fears
762
00:36:01,166 --> 00:36:05,467
{\an8}that would have never
welcomed Brian Houston
763
00:36:05,467 --> 00:36:08,767
or any other '90s preacher.
764
00:36:08,767 --> 00:36:11,667
Brian Houston
saw that charisma
765
00:36:12,567 --> 00:36:14,467
and just chose
that path for him.
766
00:36:14,467 --> 00:36:16,166
Forget about
going after the loss.
767
00:36:16,166 --> 00:36:18,900
We got trouble
loving the fact.
768
00:36:18,967 --> 00:36:21,100
Brian took a liking
to him straight away.
769
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:22,600
He could see his potential.
770
00:36:22,667 --> 00:36:26,266
Brian was like
salivating over him
in the early interviews.
771
00:36:26,266 --> 00:36:27,500
Well, he hit the jackpot
772
00:36:27,567 --> 00:36:29,000
for someone
with so much charisma
773
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:29,727
and so much appeal, who was
willing to work so hard
774
00:36:29,727 --> 00:36:30,000
and so much appeal, who was
willing to work so hard
775
00:36:31,967 --> 00:36:33,700
and putting the hours in,
you know,
776
00:36:33,767 --> 00:36:38,967
really sacrifice his life
and become somebody else
for Hillsong.
777
00:36:41,567 --> 00:36:44,266
Early on, I knew there
was this guy who was,
778
00:36:44,266 --> 00:36:48,066
{\an8}you know, a charismatic leader
of this church.
779
00:36:48,066 --> 00:36:50,667
{\an8}I don't think I would have
been able to put a name to him
780
00:36:50,667 --> 00:36:56,000
{\an8}until his very oddly
close relationship
with Justin Bieber.
781
00:36:56,066 --> 00:36:57,967
{\an8}-That's why we are okay.
-I just wanna
love people more.
782
00:36:57,967 --> 00:36:59,727
{\an8}I just wanna love Carl more.
783
00:36:59,727 --> 00:36:59,867
{\an8}I just wanna love Carl more.
784
00:36:59,867 --> 00:37:00,000
You're doing a good job
with that.
785
00:37:01,266 --> 00:37:02,467
-I'm so--
-You're the man.
786
00:37:03,567 --> 00:37:05,867
So for a few years,
Justin Bieber
787
00:37:05,867 --> 00:37:13,567
was very visibly in the news
for having some like
kind of TMZ-type moments.
788
00:37:13,567 --> 00:37:17,700
{\an8}All right. The first case
this afternoon
is Justin Bieber.
789
00:37:17,767 --> 00:37:19,667
What'd you say? [bleep]
790
00:37:19,667 --> 00:37:20,867
Get the [bleep] out of here.
791
00:37:20,867 --> 00:37:25,367
So his career was starting
to be defined by those antics.
792
00:37:25,367 --> 00:37:28,367
And Carl tried to get him
to work on himself,
793
00:37:28,367 --> 00:37:29,727
{\an8}work on his faith,
that kind of thing.
794
00:37:29,727 --> 00:37:29,767
{\an8}work on his faith,
that kind of thing.
795
00:37:29,767 --> 00:37:30,000
{\an8}My faith grows every day.
796
00:37:31,467 --> 00:37:34,266
Carl ended up
famously baptizing him
797
00:37:34,266 --> 00:37:37,767
and Tyson Chandler,
who's an NBA player,
in his bathtub.
798
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:40,166
It was awesome.
It was a cool...
799
00:37:40,166 --> 00:37:41,266
It's a cool memory
for all of us.
800
00:37:42,967 --> 00:37:44,300
[Ben] If you're hanging out
with Bieber,
801
00:37:44,367 --> 00:37:46,200
all mainstream media
is gonna pay attention.
802
00:37:46,266 --> 00:37:50,166
Like who is this ripped dude
that Bieber is hanging out
with on the beach?
803
00:37:50,166 --> 00:37:52,000
{\an8}He mainstreamed
the church even more.
804
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,066
{\an8}It wasn't just
this Australian startup
805
00:37:55,066 --> 00:37:56,600
{\an8}that's popular
for its music anymore.
806
00:37:56,667 --> 00:37:58,000
It was Justin Bieber's church.
807
00:37:58,867 --> 00:37:59,727
They got write-ups
in GQ magazine,
808
00:37:59,727 --> 00:38:00,000
They got write-ups
in GQ magazine,
809
00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:04,367
in music magazines,
810
00:38:05,467 --> 00:38:07,066
in all sorts
of popular press.
811
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:11,467
I mean, getting that
crossover is huge.
812
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,567
{\an8}That would have, you know,
increased the numbers,
813
00:38:16,767 --> 00:38:19,367
increased their
social media followers,
814
00:38:19,367 --> 00:38:21,667
all the things
that ultimately they want
815
00:38:21,667 --> 00:38:25,266
to transform society
into their vision.
816
00:38:25,266 --> 00:38:28,266
[dramatic music playing]
817
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,500
{\an8}Celebrities love Hillsong.
818
00:38:31,567 --> 00:38:33,867
{\an8}Selena Gomez
used to be a congregant.
819
00:38:33,867 --> 00:38:35,400
-You went to Hillsong?
-Yes.
820
00:38:35,467 --> 00:38:36,667
Our friend Carl Lentz,
who we love--
821
00:38:36,667 --> 00:38:38,300
-Yes. We loved him.
-I was just texting him.
822
00:38:38,367 --> 00:38:39,867
-Yes.
-[Hannah] Kevin Durant.
823
00:38:39,867 --> 00:38:41,467
[Brando] The Jackman family,
824
00:38:41,467 --> 00:38:44,867
Bono, Lenny Kravitz.
825
00:38:44,867 --> 00:38:47,600
{\an8}These are the people
that I've run into at Irving.
826
00:38:47,667 --> 00:38:50,867
[Ben] Kendall Jenner
was pretty involved.
827
00:38:50,867 --> 00:38:52,800
Carl's church
was that famous group.
828
00:38:52,867 --> 00:38:55,800
All the famous people.
That was really his church.
829
00:38:55,867 --> 00:38:58,667
There's just this
obvious culture at Hillsong
830
00:38:58,667 --> 00:38:59,727
of celebrity worship.
831
00:38:59,727 --> 00:39:00,000
of celebrity worship.
832
00:39:01,266 --> 00:39:04,467
[Craig] Again,
that's the marketing ploy.
833
00:39:04,467 --> 00:39:07,166
When that word gets around,
it's kind of like
a restaurant.
834
00:39:07,166 --> 00:39:09,100
{\an8}"Oh, you know... you know,
835
00:39:09,166 --> 00:39:11,000
{\an8}somebody famous
came in last night."
836
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,300
{\an8}Then you'll see... Now with
social media especially,
837
00:39:13,367 --> 00:39:15,100
{\an8}you'll see more people
in that restaurant
838
00:39:15,100 --> 00:39:16,567
{\an8}the next night
than you've ever seen before
839
00:39:16,567 --> 00:39:18,567
because a celebrity
was there the night before.
840
00:39:18,567 --> 00:39:21,967
Hillsong is the same way.
"Oh, I might see
Justin Bieber."
841
00:39:21,967 --> 00:39:26,567
I did know that Justin Bieber
goes to a Hillsong Church.
It's exciting.
842
00:39:26,567 --> 00:39:28,367
It's like nice
to see celebrities
843
00:39:28,367 --> 00:39:29,727
that go to a church
that I also attend.
844
00:39:29,727 --> 00:39:30,000
that go to a church
that I also attend.
845
00:39:32,467 --> 00:39:36,000
[Hannah] Hillsong was catering
to the celebrities
very consciously
846
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,367
and I think the celebrities
were receptive.
847
00:39:38,367 --> 00:39:40,700
Hillsong comes along
and offers this place
848
00:39:40,767 --> 00:39:44,367
where you can be religious
but not stuffy.
849
00:39:44,367 --> 00:39:48,266
There's this idea of like,
you know, "Oh,
you've got a sex tape?
850
00:39:48,266 --> 00:39:50,600
Cool. You love Jesus?
851
00:39:50,667 --> 00:39:52,166
Even better."
Like, you know, there...
852
00:39:52,166 --> 00:39:56,467
There's this malleable thing
about Hillsong.
853
00:39:56,467 --> 00:39:58,867
On the other side,
you've got Hillsong
854
00:39:58,867 --> 00:39:59,727
which is looking for a way
to be in the media.
855
00:39:59,727 --> 00:40:00,000
which is looking for a way
to be in the media.
856
00:40:03,467 --> 00:40:06,500
Celebrity does that
reliably every time, right?
857
00:40:06,567 --> 00:40:09,567
It's been called
the Church of the Stars
for its celebrity following.
858
00:40:09,567 --> 00:40:12,367
{\an8}The goal of our church
is from the nameless
to the famous.
859
00:40:12,367 --> 00:40:14,500
{\an8}Our church should have
celebrities, we believe,
860
00:40:14,567 --> 00:40:15,700
{\an8}'cause we're trying
to reach everybody.
861
00:40:15,767 --> 00:40:17,667
{\an8}That's one of our goals.
862
00:40:17,667 --> 00:40:21,767
Was it a lucky coincidence
that Bieber got involved
with Hillsong?
863
00:40:21,767 --> 00:40:25,867
I'm gonna have to be
a bit of a cynic,
864
00:40:25,867 --> 00:40:28,500
given that I feel very sure
865
00:40:28,567 --> 00:40:29,727
that it was part
of the Hillsong strategy
to attract celebrities
866
00:40:29,727 --> 00:40:30,000
that it was part
of the Hillsong strategy
to attract celebrities
867
00:40:32,867 --> 00:40:36,867
and to make them
sort of front and center
of their branding.
868
00:40:36,867 --> 00:40:39,367
[Tanya]
I mean, I think it benefited
both of them, didn't it?
869
00:40:39,367 --> 00:40:41,567
{\an8}Bieber was like, you know,
870
00:40:41,567 --> 00:40:43,900
{\an8}leaving monkeys behind
in other countries
871
00:40:43,967 --> 00:40:47,400
{\an8}and pissing in bucket...
Mop buckets and stuff.
872
00:40:47,467 --> 00:40:48,867
And, you know,
the bad boy thing
873
00:40:48,867 --> 00:40:51,100
for Justin Bieber
was wearing thin.
874
00:40:51,166 --> 00:40:54,667
He needed to look like he'd
had this great time of faith
875
00:40:54,667 --> 00:40:58,100
and, well,
he's turning over a new leaf.
876
00:40:58,166 --> 00:40:59,727
So they really worked out
well for each other
at exactly the right moment.
877
00:40:59,727 --> 00:41:00,000
So they really worked out
well for each other
at exactly the right moment.
878
00:41:02,867 --> 00:41:04,967
Is it possible
they just ran into each other
879
00:41:04,967 --> 00:41:07,100
on the same day?
Yes. I'm not...
880
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:11,567
I think it's far more likely
that Carl Lentz
881
00:41:11,567 --> 00:41:13,467
saw an opportunity
in Justin Bieber and took it.
882
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:20,200
When people have
the aura of celebrity
reflected on them,
883
00:41:20,266 --> 00:41:22,767
you're suddenly very
attractive to lots of women.
884
00:41:22,767 --> 00:41:24,533
[Hannah]
Yeah, he looks like a hunk.
885
00:41:24,533 --> 00:41:27,767
There's photos of him walking
around with Justin Bieber
where Justin Bieber looks bad.
886
00:41:27,767 --> 00:41:29,727
To me, that is inherently
duplicitous or hypocritical,
887
00:41:29,727 --> 00:41:30,000
To me, that is inherently
duplicitous or hypocritical,
888
00:41:32,867 --> 00:41:35,867
whether it's the desire
to be close to fame
889
00:41:35,867 --> 00:41:42,166
or other very much
earthly desires.
890
00:41:49,867 --> 00:41:50,667
{\an8}Mmm-hmm.
891
00:41:50,667 --> 00:41:53,700
{\an8}[producer speaking]
892
00:41:54,867 --> 00:41:56,100
{\an8}-[Joe] There's the preacher.
-[man] Yeah.
893
00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:57,367
[Joe] Whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa.
894
00:41:57,367 --> 00:41:58,667
What's going on
with his [bleep] shorts?
895
00:41:58,667 --> 00:41:59,727
No! Any guy
who's showing [bleep] groove,
896
00:41:59,727 --> 00:42:00,000
No! Any guy
who's showing [bleep] groove,
897
00:42:02,100 --> 00:42:04,000
you're doing that 'cause
you're trying to get laid.
898
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,166
Jesus does not want you
dressing like that.
899
00:42:06,166 --> 00:42:12,667
The motivation seems
to have been to use celebrity,
900
00:42:12,667 --> 00:42:17,000
use glamor to amass
a following,
901
00:42:17,066 --> 00:42:22,100
to amass power, to amass fame.
902
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:26,000
Someone like Carl Lentz,
who has these goals in mind
903
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,727
and saw an opportunity
to bring Bieber onboard,
904
00:42:29,727 --> 00:42:30,000
and saw an opportunity
to bring Bieber onboard,
905
00:42:32,767 --> 00:42:36,967
this may be a jump
that's unfair to Carl Lentz,
906
00:42:36,967 --> 00:42:39,900
but it's absolutely
the scientology strategy.
907
00:42:39,967 --> 00:42:41,800
If you wanna raise
your profile
908
00:42:41,867 --> 00:42:44,200
and get eyes on you,
you get a celebrity and,
909
00:42:44,266 --> 00:42:48,266
you know, that's sort of,
you know, 101 stuff.
910
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,500
[Ben] I mean, this guy
is seemingly friends
with all of these people.
911
00:42:54,567 --> 00:42:59,727
And so it's impressive that
he was able to build
a network like that.
912
00:42:59,727 --> 00:43:00,000
And so it's impressive that
he was able to build
a network like that.
913
00:43:00,066 --> 00:43:03,000
And it's
an influential network.
914
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,867
It's like this person
was able to somehow
influence his way
915
00:43:06,867 --> 00:43:08,767
into some of the most
powerful circles ever
916
00:43:08,767 --> 00:43:13,567
as a guy that
represents the gospel,
teaches the gospel.
917
00:43:13,567 --> 00:43:15,567
But then at the same time,
for a lot of people,
918
00:43:15,567 --> 00:43:18,600
it looks like
it was just a tool
919
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:21,200
to build his own
personal network.
920
00:43:21,266 --> 00:43:22,900
[dramatic music playing]
921
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,166
My name is Dale Smith
and I did security
for Hillsong.
922
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:30,000
I grew up Southern Baptist.
923
00:43:32,367 --> 00:43:35,767
{\an8}I've been to several churches,
so that's what I expected.
924
00:43:35,767 --> 00:43:38,867
[organ music playing]
925
00:43:41,967 --> 00:43:44,767
I do recall
the very first day,
I looked at my partner.
926
00:43:44,767 --> 00:43:46,467
I'm like, "Are we sure
this is a church?"
927
00:43:47,967 --> 00:43:49,667
Your venue in New York
928
00:43:49,667 --> 00:43:53,000
{\an8}has thousands, not hundreds,
like thousands, weekly.
929
00:43:54,266 --> 00:43:55,100
You're with rock stars.
930
00:43:55,166 --> 00:43:56,867
You're with athletes.
931
00:43:56,867 --> 00:43:59,567
And you have VIPs coming in
who get special treatment.
932
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,166
[man] Stars and athletes
and stuff like that.
933
00:44:03,166 --> 00:44:04,400
And you did see...
And there was sort of
934
00:44:04,467 --> 00:44:06,166
like a tiered system
when you were there.
935
00:44:06,166 --> 00:44:08,567
Like, you know,
they sat like in the front.
936
00:44:08,567 --> 00:44:11,266
It was sort of like being in
a, you know, Jewish synagogue.
937
00:44:11,266 --> 00:44:12,767
It's like if you pay,
you sat in the front
938
00:44:12,767 --> 00:44:15,367
and, you know,
if you didn't pay,
you sat in the back.
939
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,667
{\an8}The reserved seating
just got progressively
940
00:44:19,667 --> 00:44:21,567
{\an8}more and more
and just more intense.
941
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,600
When I first started serving,
I accidentally sat a visitor
942
00:44:26,667 --> 00:44:29,727
that was coming in
to participate in church
in the VIP section.
943
00:44:29,727 --> 00:44:30,000
that was coming in
to participate in church
in the VIP section.
944
00:44:30,767 --> 00:44:34,367
And one of the folks
that was a leader
945
00:44:34,367 --> 00:44:36,900
pulled me off to the corner
and scolds me for it
946
00:44:36,967 --> 00:44:41,867
and told me that we don't put
normal people
in the VIP section.
947
00:44:41,867 --> 00:44:44,066
I would always wonder
where would Jesus sit
if he was here?
948
00:44:44,066 --> 00:44:46,667
Would he be allowed
in the green room
and the VIP seats?
949
00:44:46,667 --> 00:44:48,166
You know, it's just...
What are we doing here?
950
00:44:49,166 --> 00:44:50,700
{\an8}[man] Thank you guys
for waiting.
951
00:44:50,767 --> 00:44:53,200
{\an8}We didn't expect
to be at capacity already.
952
00:44:53,266 --> 00:44:54,867
That is how
Christianity is then.
953
00:44:54,867 --> 00:44:57,767
We're all looking
to figure out
what caste we're in.
954
00:44:57,767 --> 00:44:59,727
It's like if you have this
idea of VIP, this needs...
955
00:44:59,727 --> 00:45:00,000
It's like if you have this
idea of VIP, this needs...
956
00:45:00,166 --> 00:45:02,200
These Christians need
to have special treatment.
957
00:45:02,266 --> 00:45:03,367
It's tiered.
958
00:45:03,367 --> 00:45:04,467
I mean, it's classes.
959
00:45:05,667 --> 00:45:08,767
They have banners
that say welcome home
960
00:45:08,767 --> 00:45:10,800
and you belong,
come as you are,
961
00:45:10,867 --> 00:45:14,867
{\an8}but there's terms
and conditions to my welcome.
962
00:45:14,867 --> 00:45:19,166
Doesn't feel like a church.
It feels like a business
or a concert.
963
00:45:19,166 --> 00:45:21,467
And, particularly,
when Pastor Carl came down.
964
00:45:21,467 --> 00:45:23,900
[dramatic music playing]
965
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:29,467
So on a day when Pastor Carl
will come down from New York
966
00:45:29,467 --> 00:45:29,727
and preach at the service,
come in using a limo.
967
00:45:29,727 --> 00:45:30,000
and preach at the service,
come in using a limo.
968
00:45:32,266 --> 00:45:35,266
Excitement everywhere.
Much like the president's
coming to town.
969
00:45:36,767 --> 00:45:39,367
-[woman] Hi.
Welcome to the palace.
-[Carl] Good to be here.
970
00:45:39,367 --> 00:45:43,600
All the volunteers
were on high alert.
High alert.
971
00:45:43,667 --> 00:45:45,867
Typically, his advance man
security would come.
972
00:45:45,867 --> 00:45:47,367
We'd walk around the venue,
973
00:45:47,367 --> 00:45:49,100
give them
the lay of the land.
974
00:45:49,166 --> 00:45:52,767
Once he hit that stage,
pure rock star.
975
00:45:52,767 --> 00:45:57,667
I pray that in your life
you are not missing
a move of God.
976
00:45:57,667 --> 00:45:59,727
He will bless your life,
he will magnify your voice,
977
00:45:59,727 --> 00:46:00,000
He will bless your life,
he will magnify your voice,
978
00:46:01,166 --> 00:46:03,500
and He will give you ground
you have not asked.
979
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,867
The second he was off,
he's right into the car
and off to the next venue.
980
00:46:12,266 --> 00:46:14,066
You know, as security,
you don't draw judgments.
981
00:46:14,066 --> 00:46:17,166
I'm there to protect
the venue and everybody.
982
00:46:17,166 --> 00:46:22,100
But I am not familiar
with that type of relationship
983
00:46:22,166 --> 00:46:24,100
between a preacher
and the congregation.
984
00:46:24,166 --> 00:46:25,767
Any church
I've been involved with,
985
00:46:25,767 --> 00:46:29,200
I can walk in
my pastor's office.
986
00:46:29,266 --> 00:46:29,727
Their door is certainly open,
especially after a sermon,
987
00:46:29,727 --> 00:46:30,000
Their door is certainly open,
especially after a sermon,
988
00:46:32,066 --> 00:46:35,500
and that just didn't happen
when Pastor Carl was there.
989
00:46:38,266 --> 00:46:41,967
[woman] Is Carl the next
Brian Houston,
the next Joel Osteen?
990
00:46:41,967 --> 00:46:44,467
{\an8}Could well be.
Carl, obviously, you know,
991
00:46:44,467 --> 00:46:46,166
{\an8}he's a magnetic,
attractive guy.
992
00:46:46,166 --> 00:46:47,567
{\an8}I mean, his tattoos
are a problem but--
993
00:46:47,567 --> 00:46:48,967
{\an8}You don't like the tattoos?
994
00:46:48,967 --> 00:46:51,166
{\an8}Uh, they're okay.
They're okay.
995
00:46:51,166 --> 00:46:52,667
{\an8}Yeah. Great.
996
00:46:52,667 --> 00:46:54,800
{\an8}Thanks, Bobby,
for bringing that up.
997
00:46:54,867 --> 00:46:57,166
It was like...
There was a separation.
998
00:46:57,166 --> 00:46:59,727
It was like you didn't think
of Hillsong Church
and Brian Houston anymore.
999
00:46:59,727 --> 00:47:00,000
It was like you didn't think
of Hillsong Church
and Brian Houston anymore.
1000
00:47:01,467 --> 00:47:04,266
You thought of Hillsong Church
and Carl Lentz.
1001
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,200
The Hillsong Band
is what got him here.
1002
00:47:07,266 --> 00:47:09,700
But then Carl became bigger
than what Hillsong was.
1003
00:47:09,767 --> 00:47:12,166
[beeping]
1004
00:47:12,166 --> 00:47:14,467
Carl made himself
untouchable.
1005
00:47:14,467 --> 00:47:16,500
There have been
pastors that have...
1006
00:47:17,967 --> 00:47:20,967
{\an8}begun to outshine the boss.
1007
00:47:20,967 --> 00:47:24,700
{\an8}And I think
that's what happened
in the case with Carl Lentz.
1008
00:47:26,367 --> 00:47:29,727
It was always like,
"Be careful, man."
1009
00:47:29,727 --> 00:47:30,000
It was always like,
"Be careful, man."
1010
00:47:30,066 --> 00:47:32,767
Because the only thing
everyone likes more than
1011
00:47:32,767 --> 00:47:35,900
a rising star
is a falling star, right?
1012
00:47:37,567 --> 00:47:39,467
Eventually, the stardom's
gonna catch up with you.
1013
00:47:44,667 --> 00:47:46,467
[Craig] Carl Lentz,
I mean, think about it.
1014
00:47:46,467 --> 00:47:50,400
He's one of the top
revenue streams
in the organization.
1015
00:47:50,467 --> 00:47:52,200
If you got any reason
to be grateful,
1016
00:47:52,266 --> 00:47:53,767
why don't you give Jesus
a shout of praise,
1017
00:47:53,767 --> 00:47:56,200
you just stir it up
a little bit tonight.
1018
00:47:56,266 --> 00:48:00,800
{\an8}His franchise location
is pulling down
probably more than
1019
00:48:00,867 --> 00:48:03,967
{\an8}any other franchise location
in the world.
1020
00:48:05,066 --> 00:48:07,166
Carl Lentz is the superstar.
1021
00:48:09,967 --> 00:48:11,867
This is the kingdom
1022
00:48:11,867 --> 00:48:13,794
that Carl Lentz
wants to be a part of.
1023
00:48:13,794 --> 00:48:14,000
that Carl Lentz
wants to be a part of.
1024
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,767
{\an8}Wherever Jesus went,
there were absolute
throngs of people
1025
00:48:18,767 --> 00:48:20,033
{\an8}trying to get to him.
1026
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:27,000
He craved that
sort of notoriety,
that sort of celebrity.
1027
00:48:27,066 --> 00:48:32,300
Every university felt it.
Every club felt it.
Every prison felt it.
1028
00:48:32,367 --> 00:48:34,200
Every place of people
will love it.
1029
00:48:36,467 --> 00:48:39,100
{\an8}I think that narcissism
and control
1030
00:48:39,166 --> 00:48:43,567
{\an8}does not have a place
in a pastor position.
1031
00:48:43,567 --> 00:48:43,794
He should probably
be a comedian,
1032
00:48:43,794 --> 00:48:44,000
He should probably
be a comedian,
1033
00:48:45,066 --> 00:48:46,700
maybe even a public speaker.
1034
00:48:46,767 --> 00:48:49,200
But the pastor
is supposed to serve.
1035
00:48:49,266 --> 00:48:51,667
A pastor
is supposed to protect.
1036
00:48:51,667 --> 00:48:53,066
A pastor is supposed to love.
1037
00:48:53,066 --> 00:48:56,200
A pastor is not
seeking his own attention
1038
00:48:56,266 --> 00:48:59,500
and his own titles and...
1039
00:49:00,567 --> 00:49:01,767
You name it.
1040
00:49:05,567 --> 00:49:08,266
Judging from
the godlike behavior
1041
00:49:08,266 --> 00:49:09,500
that I witnessed,
1042
00:49:09,567 --> 00:49:11,967
100% percent, I do.
1043
00:49:13,667 --> 00:49:13,794
Carl is definitely
a narcissist.
1044
00:49:13,794 --> 00:49:14,000
Carl is definitely
a narcissist.
1045
00:49:15,567 --> 00:49:17,200
{\an8}I think you have to be
a narcissist
1046
00:49:17,266 --> 00:49:20,100
{\an8}to succeed
with any megachurch.
1047
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:24,500
{\an8}The Lord is my shepherd
and I lack nothing.
1048
00:49:24,567 --> 00:49:28,066
He is so full of himself
with arrogance.
1049
00:49:28,066 --> 00:49:30,166
And that's a big problem,
you know,
1050
00:49:30,166 --> 00:49:31,567
because he's the founder
1051
00:49:31,567 --> 00:49:33,967
of this very dangerous,
charismatic movement
1052
00:49:33,967 --> 00:49:36,266
that young people
are really attracted to.
1053
00:49:36,266 --> 00:49:38,066
The worst culture gets,
1054
00:49:38,066 --> 00:49:39,900
the better it is for us,
1055
00:49:39,967 --> 00:49:41,400
because people are...
1056
00:49:41,467 --> 00:49:43,794
They're not buying
what culture is selling
1057
00:49:43,794 --> 00:49:44,000
They're not buying
what culture is selling
1058
00:49:45,066 --> 00:49:46,266
like they used to.
1059
00:49:46,266 --> 00:49:47,867
People are looking
for real answers.
1060
00:49:49,867 --> 00:49:51,767
[Brando]
They bring you in with culture
1061
00:49:51,767 --> 00:49:54,166
{\an8}and so getting it in
with music
1062
00:49:54,166 --> 00:49:56,367
{\an8}and our age group,
our clothes,
1063
00:49:56,367 --> 00:49:58,367
I mean,
everyone started dressing
1064
00:49:58,367 --> 00:50:00,400
the exact same way
as Carl Lentz.
1065
00:50:05,867 --> 00:50:06,867
It is a very great word.
1066
00:50:06,867 --> 00:50:08,367
Idolizing is the perfect word
1067
00:50:08,367 --> 00:50:10,667
because Carl Lentz
became a cult leader
1068
00:50:10,667 --> 00:50:12,000
to a bunch of people like me
1069
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,500
that ended up
trying to follow
1070
00:50:13,567 --> 00:50:13,794
into this thing of,
1071
00:50:13,794 --> 00:50:14,000
into this thing of,
1072
00:50:14,967 --> 00:50:17,000
"I want to be big
and powerful and cool
1073
00:50:17,066 --> 00:50:19,367
and have people wanna be
on fire for something
1074
00:50:19,367 --> 00:50:20,800
and lead people."
1075
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:26,066
Yes. Oh, yeah.
1076
00:50:31,066 --> 00:50:32,967
{\an8}A cult is when I tell you
what to think
1077
00:50:32,967 --> 00:50:34,300
{\an8}and if you think
any different,
1078
00:50:34,367 --> 00:50:35,300
{\an8}-you're gone.
-Hmm.
1079
00:50:35,367 --> 00:50:36,367
{\an8}That's a cult.
1080
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,500
{\an8}We preach the opposite.
1081
00:50:38,567 --> 00:50:41,200
Actually, you should go home
and question what I preach.
1082
00:50:41,266 --> 00:50:42,767
You should look it up
in your own Bible.
1083
00:50:45,166 --> 00:50:51,100
{\an8}Is creating a brand
or an idol out of a pastor
1084
00:50:51,166 --> 00:50:52,567
{\an8}or preacher problematic?
1085
00:50:52,567 --> 00:50:53,767
I think so.
1086
00:50:57,667 --> 00:51:00,367
And if the church's
whole thing
1087
00:51:00,367 --> 00:51:03,100
is based on
that one guy or girl,
1088
00:51:03,166 --> 00:51:06,200
one really impressive,
1089
00:51:06,266 --> 00:51:10,967
attractive, entertaining,
talented person
1090
00:51:11,567 --> 00:51:13,100
that is doing great
1091
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:13,794
but is one misstep away
1092
00:51:13,794 --> 00:51:14,000
but is one misstep away
1093
00:51:14,867 --> 00:51:17,100
from literally imploding
the entire thing,
1094
00:51:17,166 --> 00:51:19,166
your ministry is now eroded.
1095
00:51:19,166 --> 00:51:22,266
It's built on sand
in a lot of ways.
1096
00:51:26,767 --> 00:51:29,000
Hillsong
has tremendous leaders
1097
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,400
in so many different churches.
1098
00:51:30,467 --> 00:51:34,100
{\an8}Of course that's led
to a lot of celebrity.
1099
00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:37,367
But at the core of it,
at the heart of it,
1100
00:51:37,367 --> 00:51:39,867
is a church that I believe
1101
00:51:39,867 --> 00:51:42,300
is genuinely a work of God.
1102
00:51:42,367 --> 00:51:43,794
It helps people
to believe that
1103
00:51:43,794 --> 00:51:44,000
It helps people
to believe that
1104
00:51:44,266 --> 00:51:46,600
there is a God who loves them
and cares for them
1105
00:51:46,667 --> 00:51:49,000
and has a plan
for their lives.
1106
00:51:50,767 --> 00:51:52,767
But fame, popularity,
1107
00:51:52,767 --> 00:51:54,667
we've always had
to deal with that
1108
00:51:54,667 --> 00:51:57,200
as pastors become well-known,
1109
00:51:57,266 --> 00:52:00,567
you know, the old cliche is
1110
00:52:00,567 --> 00:52:02,200
you have to watch out
for the girls,
1111
00:52:02,266 --> 00:52:03,567
the gold, and the glory.
1112
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,400
[Carl]
Lord, keep my heart pure.
1113
00:52:10,467 --> 00:52:12,266
Keep my thoughts pure.
1114
00:52:12,266 --> 00:52:13,794
Any areas of my life
that's stuck,
1115
00:52:13,794 --> 00:52:14,000
Any areas of my life
that's stuck,
1116
00:52:14,367 --> 00:52:15,367
that's creeped in, Lord,
1117
00:52:15,367 --> 00:52:17,967
please help me keep
these hands clean.
1118
00:52:18,900 --> 00:52:22,200
♪ You can run on
For a long time ♪
1119
00:52:22,266 --> 00:52:25,400
♪ Run on for a long time ♪
1120
00:52:25,467 --> 00:52:28,567
♪ Sooner or later
God will cut you down ♪
1121
00:52:28,567 --> 00:52:32,467
♪ Sooner or later
God will cut you down ♪
1122
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,200
[Ranin] Carl has a lot
of blood on his hands,
1123
00:52:41,266 --> 00:52:42,600
you know,
let's put it that way,
1124
00:52:42,667 --> 00:52:43,794
that he needs to clean.
1125
00:52:43,794 --> 00:52:44,000
that he needs to clean.
1126
00:52:58,367 --> 00:53:02,166
[Sammy] We are at our
old stomping grounds,
1127
00:53:02,166 --> 00:53:04,266
Frank W. Cox High School.
1128
00:53:04,266 --> 00:53:07,767
And this is where Carl Lentz
went to high school.
1129
00:53:07,767 --> 00:53:09,767
That's where I went
to high school,
1130
00:53:09,767 --> 00:53:11,000
a few years apart.
1131
00:53:15,467 --> 00:53:16,700
-Speaking of the devil--
-[Sammy] Yeah.
1132
00:53:16,767 --> 00:53:17,631
[Jaclyn] I mean,
right now, Wave Church.
1133
00:53:17,631 --> 00:53:18,000
[Jaclyn] I mean,
right now, Wave Church.
1134
00:53:21,867 --> 00:53:22,700
[Sammy] Yes.
1135
00:53:22,767 --> 00:53:24,367
Where it all began.
1136
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:26,567
I'm Jaclyn,
1137
00:53:26,567 --> 00:53:30,800
{\an8}and I went to Wave Church
for 17 years,
1138
00:53:30,867 --> 00:53:34,467
{\an8}so from the time
I was 17 till 34.
1139
00:53:34,467 --> 00:53:36,467
I'm Sammy.
1140
00:53:36,467 --> 00:53:41,200
I attended Wave Church
for about eight years
1141
00:53:41,266 --> 00:53:44,800
and interned under Carl Lentz,
1142
00:53:44,867 --> 00:53:47,631
who was the pastor
of the Young Adults Ministry
1143
00:53:47,631 --> 00:53:47,700
who was the pastor
of the Young Adults Ministry
1144
00:53:47,767 --> 00:53:48,000
before Hillsong.
1145
00:53:51,867 --> 00:53:53,867
[Jaclyn] My kids still wave
to the church when we go by.
1146
00:53:53,867 --> 00:53:55,367
-[Sammy] Really?
-[Jaclyn] Yeah.
1147
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:58,367
How are they about that?
1148
00:53:58,367 --> 00:54:01,166
They didn't understand, like,
1149
00:54:01,166 --> 00:54:04,166
why we left their friends,
you know?
1150
00:54:04,166 --> 00:54:06,100
And that was
the hardest part for us too,
1151
00:54:06,166 --> 00:54:07,700
was just leaving behind
friendships.
1152
00:54:07,767 --> 00:54:09,467
I basically just
had to explain like,
1153
00:54:09,467 --> 00:54:13,100
"Well, you know,
Mommy didn't understand
1154
00:54:13,166 --> 00:54:14,467
that the way I was being led
1155
00:54:14,467 --> 00:54:16,100
was not the way
God wanted us to be led."
1156
00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:26,767
Wave Church is a
non-denominational church
1157
00:54:26,767 --> 00:54:28,066
in Virginia Beach.
1158
00:54:28,066 --> 00:54:31,000
Anything that's not faith
is sin.
1159
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,033
And with that--
1160
00:54:32,066 --> 00:54:35,467
Steve Kelly is the senior
pastor at Wave Church.
1161
00:54:35,467 --> 00:54:37,567
So the Bible said, if you're
gonna come to the God,
1162
00:54:37,567 --> 00:54:39,500
you're gonna come believing
that He is.
1163
00:54:39,567 --> 00:54:43,467
Steve Kelly
is an Australian citizen,
1164
00:54:43,467 --> 00:54:47,266
works at Hillsong Church
for about a decade
1165
00:54:47,266 --> 00:54:47,631
and then moved
to Virginia Beach
1166
00:54:47,631 --> 00:54:48,000
and then moved
to Virginia Beach
1167
00:54:48,867 --> 00:54:50,467
to pastor this church.
1168
00:54:50,467 --> 00:54:53,200
That was in 2001.
1169
00:55:00,700 --> 00:55:02,567
I loved the people there.
1170
00:55:02,567 --> 00:55:04,967
I thought that
it was very deep.
1171
00:55:04,967 --> 00:55:06,367
You know, I thought it was...
1172
00:55:06,367 --> 00:55:07,567
it was not super surface-y.
1173
00:55:07,567 --> 00:55:10,867
And I left every week
feeling,
1174
00:55:10,867 --> 00:55:12,867
like, hopeful.
1175
00:55:12,867 --> 00:55:16,266
You can have hope
without faith,
1176
00:55:16,266 --> 00:55:17,631
but you cannot have faith
without hope.
1177
00:55:17,631 --> 00:55:18,000
but you cannot have faith
without hope.
1178
00:55:19,567 --> 00:55:22,367
Eventually,
this couple was introduced
1179
00:55:22,367 --> 00:55:25,667
and it was Carl Lentz
and his beautiful wife Laura.
1180
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,100
{\an8}We went to the same
high school.
1181
00:55:30,166 --> 00:55:31,667
He was three years older
than me
1182
00:55:31,667 --> 00:55:32,967
and he knew my older sister.
1183
00:55:32,967 --> 00:55:36,867
So I only knew a little bit
about him from my friends.
1184
00:55:36,867 --> 00:55:41,166
But he did have a reputation.
1185
00:55:41,166 --> 00:55:43,500
When I first met him at Wave,
1186
00:55:43,567 --> 00:55:46,166
he was like, "You have
a sister, an older sister?"
1187
00:55:46,166 --> 00:55:47,367
And I was like, "Yeah."
1188
00:55:47,367 --> 00:55:47,631
And he was like,
"Is she really pretty?"
1189
00:55:47,631 --> 00:55:48,000
And he was like,
"Is she really pretty?"
1190
00:55:49,266 --> 00:55:50,767
And I was like,
"Yeah, she's pretty."
1191
00:55:50,767 --> 00:55:54,500
And he was like, "Yeah.
I think I remember her."
1192
00:55:54,567 --> 00:55:57,000
That kind of rubbed me
strangely.
1193
00:55:57,066 --> 00:55:59,967
Like that's how you...
that's how you know me now.
1194
00:55:59,967 --> 00:56:02,467
You know, I had only heard
about his history,
1195
00:56:02,467 --> 00:56:06,100
but he was a spectacular
basketball player
1196
00:56:06,100 --> 00:56:07,166
from what I hear.
1197
00:56:07,166 --> 00:56:10,500
And he went to Cox
and NC State after that.
1198
00:56:10,567 --> 00:56:12,867
And his own words were,
he was a player.
1199
00:56:12,867 --> 00:56:14,066
He used to tell us that
1200
00:56:14,066 --> 00:56:15,767
he was a little open
with his past
1201
00:56:15,767 --> 00:56:17,367
and, you know,
he let us know that
1202
00:56:17,367 --> 00:56:17,631
he had a life before Laura.
1203
00:56:17,631 --> 00:56:18,000
he had a life before Laura.
1204
00:56:19,667 --> 00:56:24,600
But he did end up at Hillsong
Bible College in Australia
1205
00:56:24,667 --> 00:56:26,867
and that's where
he met Laura.
1206
00:56:26,867 --> 00:56:28,400
When you go
to Hillsong College,
1207
00:56:28,467 --> 00:56:29,967
it's because you probably
wanna be a pastor.
1208
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,800
He was definitely valuable.
1209
00:56:40,867 --> 00:56:44,567
More young adults started
to be attracted
1210
00:56:44,567 --> 00:56:47,631
to his presence at the church.
1211
00:56:47,631 --> 00:56:48,000
to his presence at the church.
1212
00:56:54,100 --> 00:56:57,000
When they came, it was like
a shiny new penny.
1213
00:56:57,066 --> 00:56:58,200
You know,
they were both attractive.
1214
00:56:58,266 --> 00:57:00,066
Their relationship
was attractive,
1215
00:57:00,066 --> 00:57:02,767
and they became
our young adults pastors.
1216
00:57:02,767 --> 00:57:04,567
[crowd cheering]
1217
00:57:04,567 --> 00:57:05,867
How are you doing?
Don't sit down.
1218
00:57:05,867 --> 00:57:07,567
You're crazy.
We just started.
1219
00:57:08,567 --> 00:57:10,166
Everything changed after that.
1220
00:57:11,700 --> 00:57:14,467
When Carl came,
it was definitely
1221
00:57:14,467 --> 00:57:17,631
a different atmosphere,
culture, community.
1222
00:57:17,631 --> 00:57:17,667
a different atmosphere,
culture, community.
1223
00:57:17,667 --> 00:57:18,000
The pastoral role definitely
1224
00:57:20,066 --> 00:57:22,800
was a completely
different vibe.
1225
00:57:22,867 --> 00:57:25,000
What you're doing tonight
is saying,
1226
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:26,867
"Jesus, I'm walking out
of what was
1227
00:57:26,867 --> 00:57:28,500
into what is about to be."
1228
00:57:28,567 --> 00:57:34,000
I started to definitely notice
1229
00:57:34,066 --> 00:57:35,767
a little bit of control.
1230
00:57:35,767 --> 00:57:38,600
My dad told me something
pretty brilliant,
1231
00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:40,300
you can look it up.
It's true now.
1232
00:57:40,367 --> 00:57:44,300
I think over 90%
of a young woman's identity
1233
00:57:44,367 --> 00:57:46,600
comes from the words
of her father.
1234
00:57:46,667 --> 00:57:47,631
And my dad said, "You got
to get a hold of your girl
1235
00:57:47,631 --> 00:57:48,000
And my dad said, "You got
to get a hold of your girl
1236
00:57:49,166 --> 00:57:51,100
before everybody else.
1237
00:57:51,166 --> 00:57:52,567
You got to tell her
who she is."
1238
00:57:59,567 --> 00:58:02,266
The previous pastor was...
1239
00:58:02,266 --> 00:58:04,800
way more gentle
and compassionate
1240
00:58:04,867 --> 00:58:09,266
and understanding around
relationship dynamics.
1241
00:58:09,266 --> 00:58:12,500
So I did notice
there was a major contrast.
1242
00:58:13,700 --> 00:58:17,631
There was a lot
of dating rules.
1243
00:58:17,631 --> 00:58:18,000
There was a lot
of dating rules.
1244
00:58:18,667 --> 00:58:20,367
You know,
being in a relationship,
1245
00:58:20,367 --> 00:58:23,467
there was a whole lot
of restrictions around it.
1246
00:58:23,467 --> 00:58:25,467
I'll give you a few.
1247
00:58:25,467 --> 00:58:26,967
I think it was,
"You date for a whole year
1248
00:58:26,967 --> 00:58:28,767
before you have
your first kiss
1249
00:58:28,767 --> 00:58:31,400
and then you don't say
I love you until you propose."
1250
00:58:33,166 --> 00:58:34,367
[Sammy] He smiled a lot.
1251
00:58:34,367 --> 00:58:36,667
It was very,
you know, smooth.
1252
00:58:36,667 --> 00:58:38,266
He was easy to get along to
1253
00:58:38,266 --> 00:58:41,066
as long as you did
what you were told.
1254
00:58:41,066 --> 00:58:45,500
I do remember feeling like
we were put in our place.
1255
00:58:45,567 --> 00:58:47,631
And, you know, this is...
1256
00:58:47,631 --> 00:58:47,767
And, you know, this is...
1257
00:58:47,767 --> 00:58:48,000
this is what you do
if you serve as a woman.
1258
00:58:50,867 --> 00:58:53,000
These are the ways you behave
1259
00:58:53,066 --> 00:58:55,266
and this is the way you dress.
1260
00:58:55,266 --> 00:58:58,066
It did feel very strict.
1261
00:58:58,066 --> 00:59:01,667
There's no little bit of sex
and a little bit of purity.
1262
00:59:01,667 --> 00:59:03,867
We gotta really live
what we believe in.
1263
00:59:03,867 --> 00:59:06,667
I did feel like in general,
1264
00:59:06,667 --> 00:59:11,400
purity just came up a lot
in preaching by Carl.
1265
00:59:11,467 --> 00:59:13,867
And yeah, it was just
basically just like,
1266
00:59:13,867 --> 00:59:16,700
"You basically are gonna have
us in your business, lady."
1267
00:59:16,767 --> 00:59:17,631
You can't have
a little bit of you,
1268
00:59:17,631 --> 00:59:18,000
You can't have
a little bit of you,
1269
00:59:18,767 --> 00:59:20,700
a little bit of me
and a little bit of Jesus.
1270
00:59:20,767 --> 00:59:22,600
This is not a cocktail.
1271
00:59:22,667 --> 00:59:25,166
But now, again,
as an older adult...
1272
00:59:25,166 --> 00:59:27,400
I hate to say
I'm an older adult, but I do.
1273
00:59:27,467 --> 00:59:28,967
I look at it
and I'm like, "Wow.
1274
00:59:28,967 --> 00:59:32,900
If he was so concerned
with these things,
1275
00:59:32,967 --> 00:59:35,166
like, there must be
an underlying root."
1276
00:59:36,367 --> 00:59:38,066
And I know it's kind of
random to talk about purity.
1277
00:59:38,066 --> 00:59:41,000
Normally, we leave this
to the high schoolers.
1278
00:59:41,066 --> 00:59:43,400
Guess what? It still matters
when you run in churches.
1279
01:00:03,567 --> 01:00:05,100
[Doreen]
I was at Wave for a few years
1280
01:00:05,166 --> 01:00:06,867
{\an8}before Carl left.
1281
01:00:08,667 --> 01:00:11,367
{\an8}The impression
I always have of him,
1282
01:00:11,367 --> 01:00:13,967
I remember I would go
to leaders' meetings
1283
01:00:13,967 --> 01:00:17,631
and he would hammer
in our heads,
1284
01:00:17,631 --> 01:00:18,000
and he would hammer
in our heads,
1285
01:00:19,166 --> 01:00:22,767
"Do not have sex
before marriage."
1286
01:00:22,767 --> 01:00:25,367
He was aggressive about it.
1287
01:00:25,367 --> 01:00:27,867
Lord, keep my heart pure.
1288
01:00:27,867 --> 01:00:29,266
Keep my thoughts pure.
1289
01:00:29,266 --> 01:00:30,967
Any areas of my life
that's stuck,
1290
01:00:30,967 --> 01:00:31,867
that's creeped in, Lord,
1291
01:00:31,867 --> 01:00:33,967
please help me keep
these hands clean.
1292
01:00:33,967 --> 01:00:35,800
[Doreen]
All I could think was,
1293
01:00:35,867 --> 01:00:38,767
"Man, this guy probably had
a lot of sex before marriage."
1294
01:00:38,767 --> 01:00:40,567
I think it's this concept,
1295
01:00:40,567 --> 01:00:44,700
you know, the psychological
phenomena of therapists
1296
01:00:44,767 --> 01:00:46,767
who have all these issues
1297
01:00:46,767 --> 01:00:47,631
but instead of getting help
for their issues,
1298
01:00:47,631 --> 01:00:48,000
but instead of getting help
for their issues,
1299
01:00:49,467 --> 01:00:52,166
they're like,
"Hey, let me tell other people
1300
01:00:52,166 --> 01:00:53,367
they need to get help."
1301
01:00:53,367 --> 01:00:56,166
Because when you're
so vehemently
1302
01:00:56,166 --> 01:00:57,567
trying to get a point across,
1303
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,667
all you're doing
is not making your point.
1304
01:01:00,667 --> 01:01:02,867
All you're doing is like
pointing to yourself.
1305
01:01:07,867 --> 01:01:10,000
Hey, girl. Hi.
1306
01:01:12,467 --> 01:01:13,667
I appreciate you.
1307
01:01:13,667 --> 01:01:17,000
I'm glad I know you
1308
01:01:17,066 --> 01:01:17,631
and I just don't have
a lot of words
1309
01:01:17,631 --> 01:01:18,000
and I just don't have
a lot of words
1310
01:01:18,867 --> 01:01:19,900
or energy or anything.
1311
01:01:19,900 --> 01:01:21,667
I don't know which way
is up right now.
1312
01:01:21,667 --> 01:01:24,166
I can't sleep.
I'm struggling.
1313
01:01:24,166 --> 01:01:26,767
But if I'm within
10 miles of you,
1314
01:01:26,767 --> 01:01:28,667
I'll come and see you.
1315
01:01:28,667 --> 01:01:30,900
[Ranin] A lot of the time,
he will send me videos
1316
01:01:30,967 --> 01:01:33,767
speaking to the camera
because if he will text me,
1317
01:01:33,767 --> 01:01:35,000
I will not respond.
1318
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:36,900
So for him to create emotions,
1319
01:01:36,967 --> 01:01:39,367
he will send a video
so I can see his face.
1320
01:01:39,367 --> 01:01:41,900
Yeah. So I hit you...
1321
01:01:41,967 --> 01:01:43,166
um...
1322
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:45,567
can I get a moment?
1323
01:01:45,567 --> 01:01:46,667
It's a long video.
1324
01:01:46,667 --> 01:01:47,631
It is what it is.
1325
01:01:47,631 --> 01:01:48,000
It is what it is.
1326
01:01:48,667 --> 01:01:49,867
Appreciate you.
1327
01:01:49,867 --> 01:01:51,467
So I'll talk to you soon
for sure.
1328
01:01:52,467 --> 01:01:54,266
Bye.
1329
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,767
[Ranin] It started in May.
1330
01:02:05,767 --> 01:02:07,300
It was a Friday.
1331
01:02:07,367 --> 01:02:09,567
I was at the park
by my house.
1332
01:02:09,567 --> 01:02:14,300
I remember he was leaning
on the bench, stretching.
1333
01:02:14,367 --> 01:02:17,000
He was just looking at me.
1334
01:02:18,100 --> 01:02:19,767
You kind of feel like,
you know,
1335
01:02:19,767 --> 01:02:22,600
when a man like looks at you
different,
1336
01:02:22,667 --> 01:02:24,600
watching you
and there's like this energy
1337
01:02:24,667 --> 01:02:25,700
that is hard to explain.
1338
01:02:28,767 --> 01:02:30,400
He keeps staring.
1339
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:33,200
It was 6:00 almost
1340
01:02:33,266 --> 01:02:34,500
and the sun is about
to go down.
1341
01:02:34,567 --> 01:02:36,967
I was like, "Okay. I think
it's time for me to go."
1342
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:38,867
And he start walking with me.
1343
01:02:42,767 --> 01:02:44,767
So we were, like,
we had a nice chat.
1344
01:02:44,767 --> 01:02:46,567
He said to me,
"You're from the Middle East.
1345
01:02:46,567 --> 01:02:47,631
The most beautiful women
come from the Middle East."
1346
01:02:47,631 --> 01:02:48,000
The most beautiful women
come from the Middle East."
1347
01:02:49,066 --> 01:02:50,600
And then we kept walking
1348
01:02:50,667 --> 01:02:52,867
and he asked me
a bunch of questions.
1349
01:02:52,867 --> 01:02:54,166
I was like, "We just met
1350
01:02:54,166 --> 01:02:55,400
like, you know,
you need to chill."
1351
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,000
We walked towards at the end
of the... of the park
1352
01:02:58,066 --> 01:02:59,567
and I was like,
"Yeah, I'm gonna...
1353
01:02:59,567 --> 01:03:00,867
I'm gonna go this way,"
1354
01:03:00,867 --> 01:03:02,600
and he's like,
"Yeah, I'm gonna go that way."
1355
01:03:02,667 --> 01:03:04,567
And he grabbed his phone
and he said...
1356
01:03:04,567 --> 01:03:06,166
He asked me to write
my information,
1357
01:03:06,166 --> 01:03:08,266
but I wrote it on his note...
on his note section.
1358
01:03:11,166 --> 01:03:12,367
Um...
1359
01:03:12,367 --> 01:03:13,567
I felt really weird because
1360
01:03:13,567 --> 01:03:14,667
usually when guys ask me
for my number,
1361
01:03:14,667 --> 01:03:15,700
they don't put it
on their notes.
1362
01:03:17,667 --> 01:03:18,000
I said, "Can you send me
your last name
1363
01:03:19,066 --> 01:03:20,400
because I would, like,
to save you in the phone."
1364
01:03:20,467 --> 01:03:22,266
He said,
"Oh, you know...you know,
1365
01:03:22,266 --> 01:03:24,000
like, when people Google
people it's like...
1366
01:03:24,066 --> 01:03:25,200
It's not a good look.
1367
01:03:25,266 --> 01:03:26,266
It's better to get to know
the person
1368
01:03:26,266 --> 01:03:27,467
before you look them up."
1369
01:03:27,467 --> 01:03:29,567
I'm like, "That was the
weirdest answer I ever heard."
1370
01:03:30,467 --> 01:03:32,066
But I'm very picky
1371
01:03:32,066 --> 01:03:33,567
when it comes to who
I'm attracted to
1372
01:03:33,567 --> 01:03:35,166
and I know that
with this situation,
1373
01:03:35,166 --> 01:03:36,467
it was very different.
1374
01:03:36,467 --> 01:03:38,100
I did feel attracted to him.
1375
01:03:38,166 --> 01:03:39,767
And he said,
"I'll text you later.
1376
01:03:39,767 --> 01:03:42,200
If you're free we can...
we can have some tequila."
1377
01:03:42,266 --> 01:03:43,400
That's what he said.
1378
01:03:43,467 --> 01:03:44,767
And I was like,
"Okay. Sounds good."
1379
01:03:44,767 --> 01:03:46,800
So I walked home and I...
1380
01:03:46,867 --> 01:03:47,631
At this point, I had to, like,
look him up.
1381
01:03:47,631 --> 01:03:48,000
At this point, I had to, like,
look him up.
1382
01:03:52,667 --> 01:03:53,567
I was like, "Oh, my God.
1383
01:03:53,567 --> 01:03:54,734
I'm gonna find out
this person.
1384
01:03:54,767 --> 01:03:55,800
I mean, I'm not gonna
hang out with him tomorrow
1385
01:03:55,867 --> 01:03:56,867
if I don't know who he is.
1386
01:03:56,867 --> 01:03:59,467
So I went to... I went online
1387
01:03:59,467 --> 01:04:03,000
and I found this way
to, like, look up numbers
1388
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,500
and that can give you
everything about this person.
1389
01:04:05,567 --> 01:04:07,667
And when it did come up,
and I was like,
1390
01:04:07,667 --> 01:04:10,266
"Oh, my God.
I've seen this guy before."
1391
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:13,800
I've seen him
when I went to the church.
1392
01:04:13,867 --> 01:04:15,400
What do I want more?
1393
01:04:15,467 --> 01:04:17,631
Do I want this happy,
worldly, fleshly stuff
1394
01:04:17,631 --> 01:04:18,000
Do I want this happy,
worldly, fleshly stuff
1395
01:04:19,467 --> 01:04:22,667
or do I actually want more
of Jesus?
1396
01:04:22,667 --> 01:04:24,100
[Ranin]
When I was going through
a divorce,
1397
01:04:24,166 --> 01:04:25,867
my good friend took me there
1398
01:04:25,867 --> 01:04:27,900
because I was really depressed
and I was going through it.
1399
01:04:27,967 --> 01:04:29,367
Matthew Chapter Five.
1400
01:04:29,367 --> 01:04:31,900
Do we have anybody who's,
like, brand new to our church
1401
01:04:31,967 --> 01:04:33,200
to check this stuff out
1402
01:04:33,266 --> 01:04:34,500
and see that
it'll give you a way.
1403
01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:37,767
It was funny to me how, like,
I got to see this individual
1404
01:04:37,767 --> 01:04:40,667
or kind of know of him
years ago
1405
01:04:40,667 --> 01:04:41,767
and all of a sudden
1406
01:04:41,767 --> 01:04:43,500
he's in front of my face,
right?
1407
01:04:43,567 --> 01:04:45,000
He messaged me.
1408
01:04:45,066 --> 01:04:47,000
[phone beeps]
1409
01:04:47,066 --> 01:04:47,631
[Ranin] I said to him,
"Are you married?"
1410
01:04:47,631 --> 01:04:48,000
[Ranin] I said to him,
"Are you married?"
1411
01:04:48,767 --> 01:04:50,867
And he said, "Yes."
And I said, "For how long?"
1412
01:04:50,867 --> 01:04:52,767
He said, "For 17 years."
1413
01:04:52,767 --> 01:04:54,800
And, like,
at the end of the day,
1414
01:04:54,867 --> 01:04:58,166
we all end up falling
to a place
1415
01:04:58,166 --> 01:04:59,667
where we're attracted
to something,
1416
01:04:59,667 --> 01:05:02,567
and then,
you kind of play yourself
1417
01:05:02,567 --> 01:05:04,100
because, you know, you go...
1418
01:05:04,100 --> 01:05:06,567
You're walking into where
you shouldn't be walking.
1419
01:05:10,367 --> 01:05:13,400
When something is unreachable,
you want it more, right?
1420
01:05:15,100 --> 01:05:17,266
He end up coming to my house.
1421
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:20,900
I told him,
"Listen, you know,
I'm not judging you,
1422
01:05:20,967 --> 01:05:23,767
but I wanted to tell you
that I have looked you up
1423
01:05:23,767 --> 01:05:25,000
and I know who you are."
1424
01:05:27,767 --> 01:05:29,500
I just wanted to know, like,
1425
01:05:29,567 --> 01:05:31,367
there is anything wrong
with your relationship?
1426
01:05:31,367 --> 01:05:33,000
Why are you here?
1427
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,667
Like, why are you
in this position,
1428
01:05:34,667 --> 01:05:36,166
like, when you're sitting
in my house?
1429
01:05:36,166 --> 01:05:39,367
He was like, "I never have
done this before.
1430
01:05:39,367 --> 01:05:41,066
There's nothing wrong
in my relationship."
1431
01:05:41,066 --> 01:05:43,467
He's like,
"I know when I see someone
1432
01:05:43,467 --> 01:05:45,200
and like when I saw you,
1433
01:05:45,266 --> 01:05:47,631
like, you have everything
I want in a woman."
1434
01:05:47,631 --> 01:05:47,767
like, you have everything
I want in a woman."
1435
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,000
For me it's like very odd.
1436
01:05:52,100 --> 01:05:54,000
I feel attracted
to this individual.
1437
01:05:54,066 --> 01:05:56,367
Obviously,
this is a danger zone,
1438
01:05:56,367 --> 01:05:58,567
but then also ask yourself,
why will be me,
1439
01:05:58,567 --> 01:05:59,767
the girl that saw him
1440
01:05:59,767 --> 01:06:02,467
when I was broken in 2013.
1441
01:06:03,467 --> 01:06:06,266
Then years after,
the same person,
1442
01:06:06,266 --> 01:06:07,266
you see him at the park
1443
01:06:07,266 --> 01:06:09,066
like what is the coincidence
that happens?
1444
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:12,200
Because he keeps saying
a lot that
1445
01:06:12,266 --> 01:06:13,567
we're so similar me and him,
1446
01:06:13,567 --> 01:06:15,767
that we found each other
because we're both broken.
1447
01:06:15,767 --> 01:06:17,631
And there is sense in that
when he said it,
1448
01:06:17,631 --> 01:06:17,867
And there is sense in that
when he said it,
1449
01:06:17,867 --> 01:06:18,000
because
I'm a very big believer
1450
01:06:20,166 --> 01:06:23,166
that those coincidence
are made to happen,
1451
01:06:23,166 --> 01:06:26,500
like, I think
I did had a purpose here.
1452
01:06:27,467 --> 01:06:29,266
Something in me told me
like this is...
1453
01:06:29,266 --> 01:06:33,266
this is like such a huge
and strong connection.
1454
01:06:33,266 --> 01:06:35,467
We met on Friday, Saturday,
1455
01:06:35,467 --> 01:06:36,967
I saw him briefly at the park.
1456
01:06:36,967 --> 01:06:41,166
And then Sunday evening
when he came to my house.
1457
01:06:41,166 --> 01:06:43,367
That was the first time that
we actually got to, like...
1458
01:06:43,367 --> 01:06:44,900
We got to kiss.
1459
01:06:45,867 --> 01:06:47,631
Oh, hey, girl.
1460
01:06:47,631 --> 01:06:48,000
Oh, hey, girl.
1461
01:06:48,266 --> 01:06:50,000
Hi.
1462
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,400
Hey, girl, I'm just flipping
through my Bible
1463
01:06:53,467 --> 01:06:56,100
and it's incomplete
1464
01:06:56,166 --> 01:06:57,600
because
I'm in the Book of Numbers
1465
01:06:57,667 --> 01:06:59,166
and yours isn't in there.
1466
01:06:59,166 --> 01:07:00,867
Hey, girl.
1467
01:07:03,667 --> 01:07:05,266
[Doreen]
Yes, a number of times.
1468
01:07:05,266 --> 01:07:08,767
I had a friend who Carl tried
to sleep with her.
1469
01:07:08,767 --> 01:07:13,200
It was a very, very
known thing about Carl.
1470
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:16,967
I think people like him
1471
01:07:16,967 --> 01:07:17,631
are just very intuitive
1472
01:07:17,631 --> 01:07:18,000
are just very intuitive
1473
01:07:19,767 --> 01:07:22,500
of where they can go to prey,
1474
01:07:22,567 --> 01:07:23,867
P-R-E-Y.
1475
01:07:33,667 --> 01:07:36,000
My interactions with Carl
1476
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,266
quickly became negative
by, like, 19.
1477
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,667
Me and the guy
that I was dating,
1478
01:07:43,667 --> 01:07:48,400
{\an8}we'd been dating a year
at least and we...
1479
01:07:48,467 --> 01:07:49,867
{\an8}I don't wanna say
fell into sin
1480
01:07:49,867 --> 01:07:51,400
{\an8}because we made a decision
1481
01:07:51,467 --> 01:07:54,767
{\an8}to, you know,
have an intimate moment.
1482
01:07:54,767 --> 01:07:57,100
I mean, we both felt guilty
immediately after.
1483
01:07:57,100 --> 01:07:58,266
We were so young
1484
01:07:58,266 --> 01:08:00,379
and we really did love
the Lord.
1485
01:08:00,379 --> 01:08:00,500
and we really did love
the Lord.
1486
01:08:00,567 --> 01:08:01,000
We really did.
1487
01:08:01,467 --> 01:08:03,100
And we loved each other too.
1488
01:08:07,266 --> 01:08:09,500
At the end of a service,
1489
01:08:09,567 --> 01:08:11,667
there's usually an invitation
1490
01:08:11,667 --> 01:08:14,700
to ask Jesus to come into
your life for the first time
1491
01:08:14,767 --> 01:08:18,066
or to return back
to your faith
1492
01:08:18,066 --> 01:08:19,467
if you've left it.
1493
01:08:19,467 --> 01:08:22,200
There's an invitation
to come out of your seat
1494
01:08:22,266 --> 01:08:23,767
and come down to the front.
1495
01:08:26,300 --> 01:08:28,467
My boyfriend raised his hand
1496
01:08:28,467 --> 01:08:29,800
at the end of the service
for the altar call.
1497
01:08:29,867 --> 01:08:30,379
And I'm like, "Crap."
1498
01:08:30,379 --> 01:08:31,000
And I'm like, "Crap."
1499
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:37,900
So I raised my hand
and we went forward together.
1500
01:08:38,767 --> 01:08:40,266
Then there's an invitation
1501
01:08:40,266 --> 01:08:42,667
to a room
that's a little quieter.
1502
01:08:44,300 --> 01:08:46,667
It was me and my boyfriend,
Carl Lentz.
1503
01:08:47,867 --> 01:08:52,200
No female was present
and Carl led the discussion.
1504
01:08:53,967 --> 01:08:56,266
So we shared that
we had slept together.
1505
01:08:56,266 --> 01:08:59,767
We were very forthcoming
about our sin.
1506
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:01,000
It was literally one time
1507
01:09:02,667 --> 01:09:06,100
and Carl asked,
"Did you use protection?"
1508
01:09:06,100 --> 01:09:08,400
And I interrupted, "Yes."
1509
01:09:08,467 --> 01:09:11,000
You know, like, of course
we use protection, you know.
1510
01:09:11,066 --> 01:09:13,700
And his next response was,
1511
01:09:14,567 --> 01:09:16,567
"Huh, well then
it was premeditated."
1512
01:09:20,767 --> 01:09:23,100
There's nothing good
that is gonna come out
1513
01:09:23,100 --> 01:09:25,367
of that conversation
with Carl
1514
01:09:25,367 --> 01:09:27,166
when you're admitting
your fault,
1515
01:09:27,166 --> 01:09:28,967
but I kind of expected
1516
01:09:28,967 --> 01:09:30,379
a different response from him,
1517
01:09:30,379 --> 01:09:30,467
a different response from him,
1518
01:09:30,467 --> 01:09:31,000
to be honest.
1519
01:09:34,367 --> 01:09:35,567
I just went from
1520
01:09:35,567 --> 01:09:39,200
sharing something so personal
with you,
1521
01:09:39,266 --> 01:09:40,567
and now my answer,
1522
01:09:40,567 --> 01:09:42,100
you're using it to shame me
and condemn me.
1523
01:09:47,900 --> 01:09:51,567
It went from listening
to then,
1524
01:09:51,567 --> 01:09:56,100
"You are off the worship team
for six months and choir,
1525
01:09:56,166 --> 01:09:58,967
you are off your team,"
what he was doing.
1526
01:09:58,967 --> 01:10:00,379
"We do not think
you guys should date.
1527
01:10:00,379 --> 01:10:01,000
"We do not think
you guys should date.
1528
01:10:01,767 --> 01:10:04,800
You should not text,
call for at least six months."
1529
01:10:08,700 --> 01:10:12,467
And, yeah, I mean,
it still chokes me up
1530
01:10:12,467 --> 01:10:16,266
because we could have
walked out of that meeting
1531
01:10:16,266 --> 01:10:19,066
and said, "F this place."
[laughs]
1532
01:10:19,066 --> 01:10:20,667
Baby, let's go somewhere else.
1533
01:10:20,667 --> 01:10:22,166
We can find another church.
1534
01:10:24,166 --> 01:10:26,867
But no, we walked out
of that service
1535
01:10:26,867 --> 01:10:30,166
and we were broken up.
1536
01:10:34,900 --> 01:10:36,900
We were conditioned.
1537
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,000
When you go to this church
1538
01:10:40,066 --> 01:10:42,667
and it's this prosperity,
success,
1539
01:10:42,667 --> 01:10:46,266
like this is
what we're chasing...
1540
01:10:49,066 --> 01:10:52,000
it doesn't seem controlling
1541
01:10:52,066 --> 01:10:55,400
to submit certain things.
1542
01:10:55,467 --> 01:10:58,367
So it's very easy,
is my point.
1543
01:10:58,367 --> 01:10:59,667
It's very easy.
1544
01:10:59,667 --> 01:11:00,379
It was very easy for me
to submit.
1545
01:11:00,379 --> 01:11:01,000
It was very easy for me
to submit.
1546
01:11:08,667 --> 01:11:10,266
[man] Can you give us
a timeline
1547
01:11:10,266 --> 01:11:12,567
of how long you and Carl
were together?
1548
01:11:12,567 --> 01:11:14,100
Five... It was five months.
1549
01:11:14,100 --> 01:11:16,400
So me and Carl were together
for like five months.
1550
01:11:18,700 --> 01:11:20,166
He kept coming to my house.
1551
01:11:20,166 --> 01:11:24,767
Then at some point,
he took off his necklace.
1552
01:11:24,767 --> 01:11:26,967
He was wearing
an eagle pendant,
1553
01:11:26,967 --> 01:11:30,100
and he gave me the pendant
and he started crying
1554
01:11:30,166 --> 01:11:30,379
and he said he feels
1555
01:11:30,379 --> 01:11:31,000
and he said he feels
1556
01:11:32,767 --> 01:11:34,867
something about him
not being vulnerable,
1557
01:11:34,867 --> 01:11:37,667
but being around me
make him feel vulnerable.
1558
01:11:37,667 --> 01:11:40,000
I mean, later on,
I realized it's bull [bleep]
1559
01:11:40,066 --> 01:11:41,667
people that went
to the church say
1560
01:11:41,667 --> 01:11:43,166
he cries all the time
on stage.
1561
01:11:43,166 --> 01:11:44,700
I remember sitting there
tears on my eyes.
1562
01:11:44,767 --> 01:11:46,166
I don't know why I'm so weepy.
1563
01:11:46,166 --> 01:11:47,667
I love people.
1564
01:11:50,100 --> 01:11:52,867
{\an8}If you're wondering about
emotionally unstable,
absolutely.
1565
01:11:52,867 --> 01:11:55,467
{\an8}-This is fake.
-[laughing]
1566
01:11:55,467 --> 01:11:57,367
{\an8}It's all for show.
1567
01:12:00,166 --> 01:12:00,379
[Ranin] I got to know him
1568
01:12:00,379 --> 01:12:01,000
[Ranin] I got to know him
1569
01:12:01,767 --> 01:12:04,400
more than I think
anybody else got to know him.
1570
01:12:04,467 --> 01:12:06,100
And I think...
1571
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:09,066
he was the main...
1572
01:12:09,066 --> 01:12:10,767
He was the character
of his own show
1573
01:12:10,767 --> 01:12:12,000
and then I was a...
1574
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,567
I was just an add-on,
you know?
1575
01:12:15,700 --> 01:12:19,467
He always wanted to feel
like he's somebody.
1576
01:12:20,967 --> 01:12:22,567
You know,
I never have been part
1577
01:12:22,567 --> 01:12:24,867
of the Christian culture
like that.
1578
01:12:24,867 --> 01:12:27,667
I don't know what
he really does at the church.
1579
01:12:27,667 --> 01:12:30,379
All I know is that
his persona, his chaos,
1580
01:12:30,379 --> 01:12:31,000
All I know is that
his persona, his chaos,
1581
01:12:32,667 --> 01:12:33,867
brought chaos in to my life.
1582
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:37,667
Those who live according
to the flesh
1583
01:12:37,667 --> 01:12:41,467
have their mind set
on what the flesh desires.
1584
01:12:41,467 --> 01:12:44,367
The mind governed by the flesh
is death,
1585
01:12:44,367 --> 01:12:48,400
but the mind governed by
the spirit is life in peace.
1586
01:12:53,500 --> 01:12:55,166
[Jaclyn]
With that whole purity thing,
1587
01:12:55,166 --> 01:12:56,166
when you mess up,
1588
01:12:56,166 --> 01:12:57,867
it's not like there's no hope
1589
01:12:57,867 --> 01:12:59,200
because then there's...
1590
01:12:59,266 --> 01:13:00,379
But there's marriage.
1591
01:13:00,379 --> 01:13:01,000
But there's marriage.
1592
01:13:01,066 --> 01:13:02,767
So marriage
is the new shiny penny.
1593
01:13:04,500 --> 01:13:07,700
After Carl had
the conversation with us,
1594
01:13:07,767 --> 01:13:12,100
there wasn't really a lot of
closure for me and that guy.
1595
01:13:13,767 --> 01:13:15,467
Fast forward
to my first marriage,
1596
01:13:15,467 --> 01:13:17,867
which was only a year later.
1597
01:13:19,266 --> 01:13:23,900
That same broken,
immature girl is now married.
1598
01:13:25,467 --> 01:13:27,467
I married after being
with him for three months
1599
01:13:27,467 --> 01:13:30,266
because we had sex
and we were...
1600
01:13:30,266 --> 01:13:30,379
we were basically
gonna be asked
1601
01:13:30,379 --> 01:13:31,000
we were basically
gonna be asked
1602
01:13:32,166 --> 01:13:33,600
to break up or whatever.
1603
01:13:33,667 --> 01:13:34,867
And so we ran off
1604
01:13:34,867 --> 01:13:36,400
and went to the courthouse
and got married.
1605
01:13:36,467 --> 01:13:40,567
It was either me
coming forward again with,
1606
01:13:40,567 --> 01:13:42,066
"I had sex again,"
1607
01:13:42,066 --> 01:13:44,266
or coming back with husband.
1608
01:13:44,266 --> 01:13:46,900
That relationship
was definitely,
1609
01:13:46,967 --> 01:13:48,367
you know, difficult
1610
01:13:48,367 --> 01:13:52,200
for a 21-year-old
and a 23-year-old to handle
1611
01:13:52,266 --> 01:13:54,900
and we were married
about seven or eight years.
1612
01:13:54,967 --> 01:13:57,567
And, you know,
that ended very hard.
1613
01:13:57,567 --> 01:14:00,379
And, you know, that was...
that was very difficult.
1614
01:14:00,379 --> 01:14:01,000
And, you know, that was...
that was very difficult.
1615
01:14:04,467 --> 01:14:07,300
♪ We are lost ♪
1616
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:12,166
♪ Woo ♪
1617
01:14:12,166 --> 01:14:15,567
♪ Yeah ♪
1618
01:14:15,567 --> 01:14:18,900
♪ Hallelujah ♪
1619
01:14:21,367 --> 01:14:23,967
{\an8}I'm 41, been married
for 16 years
1620
01:14:23,967 --> 01:14:25,767
{\an8}and we were...
Yeah, thank you.
1621
01:14:25,767 --> 01:14:27,467
{\an8}Yeah, 16 years.
1622
01:14:27,467 --> 01:14:28,767
{\an8}It's incredible.
1623
01:14:28,767 --> 01:14:30,379
{\an8}Marriage is not easy,
it's just awesome.
1624
01:14:30,379 --> 01:14:30,867
{\an8}Marriage is not easy,
it's just awesome.
1625
01:14:34,767 --> 01:14:36,767
[Ranin]
Throughout the months that
we were seeing each other,
1626
01:14:36,767 --> 01:14:39,066
it got to the point
where I started to realize
1627
01:14:39,066 --> 01:14:41,266
he does things that
is always convenient for him.
1628
01:14:41,266 --> 01:14:44,066
He always gives a timeframe
when he can do things.
1629
01:14:44,066 --> 01:14:46,400
I fell into the...
A place where, like,
1630
01:14:46,467 --> 01:14:48,867
I will wanted to hang out,
you know, with him
1631
01:14:48,867 --> 01:14:50,867
and then he wouldn't be able
to do that.
1632
01:14:50,867 --> 01:14:52,367
And it's starting
to occur to me
1633
01:14:52,367 --> 01:14:54,867
that it's always
his way or no way.
1634
01:14:56,567 --> 01:14:59,166
It got to the point where
I will send him novels
1635
01:14:59,166 --> 01:15:00,379
of like, "Goodbye.
1636
01:15:00,379 --> 01:15:00,667
of like, "Goodbye.
1637
01:15:00,667 --> 01:15:01,000
I wish I never met you
on the park."
1638
01:15:02,066 --> 01:15:03,867
We used to argue a lot.
1639
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:07,200
And when I started
to pull back and say,
1640
01:15:07,266 --> 01:15:09,567
"I don't want this anymore,
leave me alone,"
1641
01:15:09,567 --> 01:15:11,266
he wants to know
that if he's...
1642
01:15:11,266 --> 01:15:12,767
If you're walking away
from him,
1643
01:15:12,767 --> 01:15:14,066
he's not gonna
let you walk away.
1644
01:15:14,066 --> 01:15:15,266
He needs to be the first one.
1645
01:15:15,266 --> 01:15:18,367
We have like an outlandishly
1646
01:15:18,367 --> 01:15:21,100
complex relationship
1647
01:15:21,100 --> 01:15:24,000
and nothing
has ever been normal.
1648
01:15:25,166 --> 01:15:26,266
[Ranin]
The more you say no to him,
1649
01:15:26,266 --> 01:15:28,100
the more he kept coming back.
1650
01:15:28,166 --> 01:15:29,967
[Carl] Here's my dilemma,
I miss you.
1651
01:15:29,967 --> 01:15:30,379
I was thinking about you,
1652
01:15:30,379 --> 01:15:31,000
I was thinking about you,
1653
01:15:31,367 --> 01:15:33,867
wondering
if you're okay today.
1654
01:15:33,867 --> 01:15:35,600
And didn't know
if I should text
1655
01:15:35,667 --> 01:15:39,166
or if it's worse for me
to check, not check.
1656
01:15:39,166 --> 01:15:41,667
So you're starting
to understand this person
1657
01:15:41,667 --> 01:15:44,367
cannot lose a battle.
1658
01:15:44,367 --> 01:15:46,467
If it's okay
from time to time
1659
01:15:46,467 --> 01:15:49,567
for me to let you know
I'm thinking about you
1660
01:15:49,567 --> 01:15:51,867
and hope you're okay,
I would like to.
1661
01:15:51,867 --> 01:15:54,867
I'm genuinely
asking you what's...
1662
01:15:54,867 --> 01:15:56,567
What do you want me to do?
1663
01:15:56,567 --> 01:15:59,767
Because if it's easier
for you just to move on
1664
01:15:59,767 --> 01:16:00,379
and me not say,
"Hey, how are you
1665
01:16:00,379 --> 01:16:01,000
and me not say,
"Hey, how are you
1666
01:16:01,467 --> 01:16:04,100
or how was your day
or I think about you,"
1667
01:16:04,166 --> 01:16:07,367
and let you know,
I won't do that.
1668
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:11,467
[Ranin] But then he said
something that triggered me.
1669
01:16:11,467 --> 01:16:13,367
He said, "You know,
at the end of the day,
1670
01:16:13,367 --> 01:16:15,900
I go to my family
and you go to nothing."
1671
01:16:17,967 --> 01:16:20,567
And I was like, "Wow,
that's a slap in the face."
1672
01:16:23,467 --> 01:16:24,567
I started to realize
1673
01:16:24,567 --> 01:16:26,867
there's things
that people say
1674
01:16:26,867 --> 01:16:29,100
that they feel
they have power over you.
1675
01:16:30,367 --> 01:16:30,379
It was the most toxic thing
I ever had to deal with.
1676
01:16:30,379 --> 01:16:31,000
It was the most toxic thing
I ever had to deal with.
1677
01:16:33,867 --> 01:16:35,867
It was really unhealthy.
1678
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,967
It just brought a lot of pain
into my life, you know,
1679
01:16:40,967 --> 01:16:42,266
because I always said,
1680
01:16:42,266 --> 01:16:44,300
"If I can go back
and never meet Carl, I would."
1681
01:16:44,367 --> 01:16:47,467
It's not like something that
I wanted to happen in my life.
1682
01:16:47,467 --> 01:16:49,300
It just happened.
1683
01:16:50,467 --> 01:16:53,667
So I'll talk to you
soon for sure.
1684
01:16:53,667 --> 01:16:56,266
Might knock on your door.
You never know.
1685
01:16:56,266 --> 01:16:57,367
Bye.