1
00:00:01,380 --> 00:00:04,763
[dramatic music begins]

2
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000
Downloaded from
YTS.MX

3
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

4
00:00:16,602 --> 00:00:20,296
[dramatic music continues]

5
00:00:38,348 --> 00:00:39,970
- [Reporter #1]
Of Lucan himself,

6
00:00:39,970 --> 00:00:42,318
nothing has been seen since
his children's nanny was found

7
00:00:42,318 --> 00:00:44,113
battered to death
here in the basement

8
00:00:44,113 --> 00:00:46,011
of the family home in Belgravia.

9
00:00:46,011 --> 00:00:47,495
Exhaustive police searches

10
00:00:47,495 --> 00:00:49,877
of the South Coast
produced no clue.

11
00:00:54,951 --> 00:00:56,608
- [Reporter #2] A massive
manhunt is underway

12
00:00:56,608 --> 00:00:58,368
for the location
of John Bingham,

13
00:00:58,368 --> 00:01:00,784
Seventh Earl of Lucan
who has disappeared

14
00:01:00,784 --> 00:01:02,648
and is suspected of murder.

15
00:01:02,648 --> 00:01:06,135
Anyone with information is
urged to contact police.

16
00:01:06,135 --> 00:01:09,759
[dramatic music continues]

17
00:01:15,385 --> 00:01:18,802
Bludgeoned to death at
46 Lower Belgrave Street.

18
00:01:20,563 --> 00:01:23,393
The Lucan family's
29-year-old nanny.

19
00:01:32,333 --> 00:01:37,338
- She is the primary victim and
yet we don't talk about her.

20
00:01:38,650 --> 00:01:40,307
What we are really
interested in, say the press,

21
00:01:40,307 --> 00:01:44,587
is the glamorous story of
Lord Lucan and Veronica Lucan,

22
00:01:44,587 --> 00:01:47,210
and that is immensely tragic.

23
00:01:49,557 --> 00:01:53,182
- The murder that saw her
lose her life has been defined

24
00:01:53,182 --> 00:01:57,220
in terms that don't
even namecheck her.

25
00:01:57,220 --> 00:01:59,395
She's referred to
retrospectively in the press

26
00:01:59,395 --> 00:02:01,328
as Little Miss Nobody.

27
00:02:01,328 --> 00:02:03,123
Well everybody is a somebody.

28
00:02:08,128 --> 00:02:10,509
- And she was always
well turned out,

29
00:02:10,509 --> 00:02:13,719
very quiet girl just like
the rest of us really.

30
00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:15,480
Very sad 'cause you
don't want someone

31
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,896
you went to school with
to be murdered, do you?

32
00:02:17,896 --> 00:02:20,243
It's just in the wrong
place at the wrong time.

33
00:02:21,865 --> 00:02:23,488
- I feel guilty even now.

34
00:02:27,595 --> 00:02:31,634
I feel guilty because
of a young baby going

35
00:02:31,634 --> 00:02:33,739
to grow without his mommy.

36
00:02:39,228 --> 00:02:42,334
- The victim in this
case did have a name.

37
00:02:42,334 --> 00:02:44,509
That name was Sandra Rivett.

38
00:02:47,063 --> 00:02:50,273
[dramatic music fades]

39
00:02:56,003 --> 00:02:57,418
- The Lucan case.

40
00:02:57,418 --> 00:02:59,489
I can't remember a time
when I didn't know about it.

41
00:03:03,183 --> 00:03:05,909
It's something that so many
people have grown up with

42
00:03:05,909 --> 00:03:09,119
just in the collective
consciousness somehow.

43
00:03:11,191 --> 00:03:13,227
People used to tell jokes.

44
00:03:15,574 --> 00:03:18,646
It's almost like
he was a character

45
00:03:18,646 --> 00:03:20,683
rather than a person.

46
00:03:20,683 --> 00:03:24,583
I probably came across his
name more commonly like

47
00:03:24,583 --> 00:03:27,655
that than I did for
what he'd actually done.

48
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,971
- I joined the police in 1981

49
00:03:32,971 --> 00:03:35,870
and he was the suspect in
a murder investigation.

50
00:03:35,870 --> 00:03:37,872
There would be times when
I can remember friends

51
00:03:37,872 --> 00:03:39,391
and we were joking
about something

52
00:03:39,391 --> 00:03:42,152
and I said, "Maybe Lord Lucan's
gonna appear in a minute."

53
00:03:44,672 --> 00:03:48,331
- It has so many of the elements
that make murder so very,

54
00:03:48,331 --> 00:03:51,645
very interesting and the
fact that it happened in

55
00:03:51,645 --> 00:03:53,647
that incongruous setting of

56
00:03:53,647 --> 00:03:57,098
that beautiful tall
white House in Belgravia

57
00:03:57,098 --> 00:04:00,170
and it's an unsolved mystery
because Lord Lucan disappeared.

58
00:04:00,170 --> 00:04:02,725
So it's one of
the great stories.

59
00:04:05,693 --> 00:04:09,973
- I've heard a lot of
stories about Lord Lucan,

60
00:04:09,973 --> 00:04:14,184
but I know very, very
little about Veronica Lucan

61
00:04:14,184 --> 00:04:17,636
and I didn't know Sandra
Rivett's name until I came

62
00:04:17,636 --> 00:04:21,468
to do this project, which
is alarming, isn't it?

63
00:04:25,713 --> 00:04:29,890
- This period of the 10 weeks
when Sandra Rivett was nanny

64
00:04:29,890 --> 00:04:32,962
to the Lucan children
is an unknown really.

65
00:04:32,962 --> 00:04:35,378
I believe she had a very good

66
00:04:35,378 --> 00:04:37,000
relationship with the children.

67
00:04:40,383 --> 00:04:44,318
There is no reason to disbelieve
that she was happy there.

68
00:04:46,355 --> 00:04:49,323
She brought a cat to the
house as well actually.

69
00:04:49,323 --> 00:04:51,670
So that was quite a sweet sort

70
00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:54,259
of domestic thing
to do if you like.

71
00:04:54,259 --> 00:04:57,262
And it does seem
like it was happy,

72
00:04:57,262 --> 00:05:00,576
it does seem like it
worked for all parties.

73
00:05:00,576 --> 00:05:03,372
[gentle music]

74
00:05:04,614 --> 00:05:06,789
- She always wanted to
go back to Australia.

75
00:05:06,789 --> 00:05:08,308
She talked about
it a lot actually.

76
00:05:08,308 --> 00:05:10,655
She'd spent a lot of
her childhood there

77
00:05:10,655 --> 00:05:14,624
and she just missed it terribly
and she wanted to go back.

78
00:05:15,798 --> 00:05:17,593
She missed the weather,
she missed the life.

79
00:05:21,286 --> 00:05:24,082
[dramatic music]

80
00:05:26,429 --> 00:05:28,569
My name's Mary Mackenzie

81
00:05:28,569 --> 00:05:31,572
and I went to school with
Sandra when I lived in Caterham

82
00:05:33,402 --> 00:05:34,782
my friends rang me up

83
00:05:34,782 --> 00:05:37,267
and told me that Sandra
had been murdered.

84
00:05:38,545 --> 00:05:42,618
Well I was shocked, hard
to believe really and sad

85
00:05:42,618 --> 00:05:43,998
'cause she's got two boys.

86
00:05:43,998 --> 00:05:45,137
Sad for her children.

87
00:05:46,863 --> 00:05:48,727
They're more interested
in him, weren't they?

88
00:05:48,727 --> 00:05:49,797
Than they were her.

89
00:05:51,385 --> 00:05:52,662
They seem to just put her as

90
00:05:52,662 --> 00:05:54,457
an afterthought
really I thought.

91
00:05:55,976 --> 00:05:57,805
- [Reporter #2] The family's
nanny killed in a murder

92
00:05:57,805 --> 00:05:59,048
most horrid.

93
00:05:59,048 --> 00:06:00,636
But the question on
everyone's lips is

94
00:06:00,636 --> 00:06:02,292
where is Lord Lucan?

95
00:06:02,292 --> 00:06:03,259
Did he do it?

96
00:06:03,259 --> 00:06:05,365
If not, why has he disappeared

97
00:06:05,365 --> 00:06:07,125
and where could he be?

98
00:06:09,783 --> 00:06:12,268
- There's an article in which
it says it was an ugly real

99
00:06:12,268 --> 00:06:14,339
life performance of
upstairs, downstairs.

100
00:06:14,339 --> 00:06:15,616
And they then say,

101
00:06:15,616 --> 00:06:19,171
and she was firmly kept
in her place downstairs

102
00:06:19,171 --> 00:06:21,346
where she was slaughtered.

103
00:06:21,346 --> 00:06:24,694
[dramatic music continues]

104
00:06:25,902 --> 00:06:29,250
So it is leaning into
the class narrative.

105
00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:32,978
I mean by what parameters
are individuals judged.

106
00:06:32,978 --> 00:06:35,187
The Lucans were somebody

107
00:06:35,187 --> 00:06:40,227
and in relation to them,
Sandra, she was erased.

108
00:06:40,779 --> 00:06:41,228
She was erased.

109
00:06:48,891 --> 00:06:51,687
[peaceful music]

110
00:06:55,242 --> 00:07:00,281
- Lord Lucan had a
certain status in life

111
00:07:01,006 --> 00:07:02,870
and it was that status

112
00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:05,528
that protected him really.

113
00:07:05,528 --> 00:07:07,910
And we might think that
things have changed,

114
00:07:07,910 --> 00:07:09,877
but if we look
through history now,

115
00:07:09,877 --> 00:07:12,915
we've got our cultural
royalty now rather

116
00:07:12,915 --> 00:07:15,055
than our actual aristocracy.

117
00:07:15,055 --> 00:07:19,646
People like Oscar Pistorius
who are in these elevated

118
00:07:19,646 --> 00:07:24,582
and privileged positions
and they killed partners.

119
00:07:25,893 --> 00:07:30,484
And yet in those cases,
even given what we know now,

120
00:07:31,761 --> 00:07:35,489
we still focused
on their narrative

121
00:07:35,489 --> 00:07:38,872
using their charisma to excuse

122
00:07:38,872 --> 00:07:41,495
and justify what
they might have done.

123
00:07:41,495 --> 00:07:44,429
So things haven't
changed that much.

124
00:07:49,054 --> 00:07:51,850
[peaceful music]

125
00:07:55,613 --> 00:07:57,994
- I got a call from
a junior officer,

126
00:07:57,994 --> 00:07:59,893
like many officers in London

127
00:07:59,893 --> 00:08:02,723
that night would've
heard the gossip.

128
00:08:02,723 --> 00:08:05,588
I think I'm right in saying
I was probably the youngest

129
00:08:05,588 --> 00:08:07,694
reporter on the staff
of the Evening Standard.

130
00:08:07,694 --> 00:08:11,283
I'd only just taken
over on the crime desk.

131
00:08:11,283 --> 00:08:14,286
It was a very different
time in the 70s.

132
00:08:14,286 --> 00:08:17,013
The police and the press,
particularly in London,

133
00:08:17,013 --> 00:08:20,051
were very much in
each other's pockets.

134
00:08:20,051 --> 00:08:22,363
There was also quite
a lot of money passed

135
00:08:22,363 --> 00:08:25,746
and changed hands between
reporters and police officers.

136
00:08:25,746 --> 00:08:28,715
In return for a good story,
a return for a good tip.

137
00:08:29,992 --> 00:08:32,442
As a young crime reporter,
I asked a colleague,

138
00:08:32,442 --> 00:08:33,823
"How do you get a policeman

139
00:08:33,823 --> 00:08:37,413
"to accept money in
return for a story?"

140
00:08:37,413 --> 00:08:42,280
And I was told, "Well any copper
in Britain will be happily

141
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,385
"accept a bottle of scotch."

142
00:08:44,385 --> 00:08:46,871
And after a while you
say, I found this new way

143
00:08:46,871 --> 00:08:50,012
of putting a bottle of scotch
in a brown paper envelope.

144
00:08:50,012 --> 00:08:51,461
It's called cash.

145
00:08:51,461 --> 00:08:55,293
And I found that little
method of recruiting contacts

146
00:08:55,293 --> 00:08:57,157
to be quite powerful

147
00:08:57,157 --> 00:09:00,056
and in fact that was one
of the ways I heard about

148
00:09:00,056 --> 00:09:03,197
that night was someone
that I had recently treated

149
00:09:03,197 --> 00:09:05,924
to a paper envelope drink.

150
00:09:05,924 --> 00:09:08,064
Looking back on
it, it was wrong,

151
00:09:08,064 --> 00:09:12,206
it was corrupt and I probably
shouldn't be talking about it,

152
00:09:12,206 --> 00:09:14,968
but it happened in every
Fleet Street newspaper

153
00:09:14,968 --> 00:09:17,004
and in every police station.

154
00:09:17,004 --> 00:09:19,697
[bell tolls]
[dramatic music]

155
00:09:22,596 --> 00:09:24,564
- In terms of notifying
police of the murder,

156
00:09:24,564 --> 00:09:27,705
it was actually the landlord
of the Plumber's Arms.

157
00:09:27,705 --> 00:09:31,156
It was quite quiet that
evening when Lady Lucan came

158
00:09:31,156 --> 00:09:34,297
through the door covered
in blood being hysterical

159
00:09:34,297 --> 00:09:36,092
and almost fainting
in front of them.

160
00:09:36,092 --> 00:09:38,163
It would've been
a difficult scene.

161
00:09:38,163 --> 00:09:40,752
You know some people may have
thought, is this a windup?

162
00:09:40,752 --> 00:09:42,789
She initially said her
nanny had been killed.

163
00:09:42,789 --> 00:09:44,998
She said she'd been
attacked by her husband.

164
00:09:44,998 --> 00:09:48,070
At that point the
publican decided the
best thing they could

165
00:09:48,070 --> 00:09:50,486
do was to try and calm
her as best they could

166
00:09:50,486 --> 00:09:51,694
and inform the police.

167
00:09:53,351 --> 00:09:56,078
- I had a very good
contact with Roy Ranson,

168
00:09:56,078 --> 00:09:58,563
the senior
investigating officer,

169
00:09:58,563 --> 00:10:01,739
and I met him there
that night at the scene.

170
00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:06,433
It was already quite chaotic.

171
00:10:06,433 --> 00:10:10,402
There was one or two
policemen on the door.

172
00:10:10,402 --> 00:10:12,888
The forensic scientist
I think had arrived.

173
00:10:12,888 --> 00:10:14,096
There was an ambulance,

174
00:10:14,096 --> 00:10:16,408
there was people
looking out windows at

175
00:10:16,408 --> 00:10:19,515
what on earth was going
on in the road outside.

176
00:10:19,515 --> 00:10:24,209
It was a very posh part of
Belgravia and a very posh road.

177
00:10:24,209 --> 00:10:27,212
You didn't expect to
see something like that.

178
00:10:27,212 --> 00:10:30,906
As I was about to join
some of my other colleagues

179
00:10:30,906 --> 00:10:34,564
and photographers moving away
down the street a little way,

180
00:10:34,564 --> 00:10:37,188
I literally got
the wink from Roy.

181
00:10:37,188 --> 00:10:41,641
I slipped across to him and
talked to him on that doorstep

182
00:10:41,641 --> 00:10:45,299
and he said there was a body,
that it wasn't Lady Lucan,

183
00:10:45,299 --> 00:10:47,163
that Lady Lucan
and had been hurt

184
00:10:47,163 --> 00:10:50,788
and that he was really
interested in finding out

185
00:10:50,788 --> 00:10:52,962
where Lord Lucan was.

186
00:10:52,962 --> 00:10:55,482
[bell tolls]
[dramatic music]

187
00:10:57,449 --> 00:11:00,211
- When you read the account
provided by Roy Ranson

188
00:11:00,211 --> 00:11:01,937
and others, it was
obviously a lot

189
00:11:01,937 --> 00:11:03,524
of officers had
entered the premises,

190
00:11:03,524 --> 00:11:06,217
which would not happen now,

191
00:11:06,217 --> 00:11:08,771
the scene would have been
contained very quickly,

192
00:11:08,771 --> 00:11:12,602
but back in 1974 it was a
different time, a different era

193
00:11:12,602 --> 00:11:14,397
and things weren't
necessarily dealt with

194
00:11:14,397 --> 00:11:16,572
as you would've wanted
them to at the time.

195
00:11:18,056 --> 00:11:21,404
- Roy Ranson hadn't had any
chance to talk to Lady Lucan.

196
00:11:21,404 --> 00:11:25,788
As we were talking, we were
gravitating together almost

197
00:11:25,788 --> 00:11:27,031
to the top of the stairs

198
00:11:27,031 --> 00:11:30,482
and I got one look
down into the basement.

199
00:11:33,623 --> 00:11:35,729
It had police lights down there.

200
00:11:35,729 --> 00:11:38,456
There were police officers who
were walking through the pool

201
00:11:38,456 --> 00:11:41,666
of blood and tramping
it up the stairs

202
00:11:41,666 --> 00:11:44,324
and it was just general mayhem.

203
00:11:45,774 --> 00:11:49,709
In the bottom of the stairs
on the floor was the sack

204
00:11:49,709 --> 00:11:53,057
and Sandra Rivett's
body was in that sack

205
00:11:53,057 --> 00:11:55,887
and she was doubled up.

206
00:11:55,887 --> 00:12:00,064
She'd been put in
head and feet first.

207
00:12:00,064 --> 00:12:04,965
It was a very large
American canvas mail sack,

208
00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:09,590
and as far as I know, they
have never been able to find

209
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:13,249
where that sack came from
and why Lucan had it.

210
00:12:13,249 --> 00:12:14,941
We know why he took
it to the house.

211
00:12:14,941 --> 00:12:17,150
It was to get rid of the body.

212
00:12:17,150 --> 00:12:18,599
So the only thing you could see

213
00:12:18,599 --> 00:12:21,568
of Sandra was very undignified.

214
00:12:21,568 --> 00:12:25,158
She had tights and white
pants on and that was it.

215
00:12:28,506 --> 00:12:31,992
- The officers recovered
a length of lead piping

216
00:12:31,992 --> 00:12:33,925
and it had been
wrapped with tape.

217
00:12:33,925 --> 00:12:37,377
It was likely that that
was the item that was used

218
00:12:37,377 --> 00:12:41,346
to attack not only Sandra
Rivett but also Lady Lucan.

219
00:12:41,346 --> 00:12:43,866
We know that Lady
Lucan's hair fibres were

220
00:12:43,866 --> 00:12:45,247
found on that item.

221
00:12:47,007 --> 00:12:49,078
One of the things to bear
in mind is in this day

222
00:12:49,078 --> 00:12:51,943
and age, if you had a a
weapon like that recovered,

223
00:12:51,943 --> 00:12:54,843
there would probably be
that much more information

224
00:12:54,843 --> 00:12:56,845
that could be gleaned that
you were more than likely

225
00:12:56,845 --> 00:12:58,950
to get DNA off of the weapon.

226
00:12:58,950 --> 00:13:01,401
But back then what they
would mainly be looking

227
00:13:01,401 --> 00:13:04,611
for will be the fibres,
blood and whether

228
00:13:04,611 --> 00:13:07,925
or not there were any
traces of fingerprints.

229
00:13:10,479 --> 00:13:13,275
[dramatic music]

230
00:13:16,623 --> 00:13:19,971
Roy Ranson was the chief
superintendent at the time.

231
00:13:19,971 --> 00:13:21,697
I tried to put
myself in his shoes

232
00:13:21,697 --> 00:13:23,803
and think, so what
would I do next?

233
00:13:23,803 --> 00:13:26,046
Well, we know that some
of his staff were going

234
00:13:26,046 --> 00:13:28,911
to be doing the initial
work at the scene in terms

235
00:13:28,911 --> 00:13:32,535
of exhibits, forensication,
house to house inquiries.

236
00:13:32,535 --> 00:13:35,366
He would've been thinking,
how am I going to identify

237
00:13:35,366 --> 00:13:37,299
how many suspects
were involved in it?

238
00:13:38,783 --> 00:13:42,131
- The person who attacked
her attacked her brutally

239
00:13:42,131 --> 00:13:45,203
and with an extreme
amount of force,

240
00:13:45,203 --> 00:13:48,206
the force was from
a blunt weapon

241
00:13:48,206 --> 00:13:52,038
and all of it was
directed towards her head

242
00:13:52,038 --> 00:13:55,524
and face, which means
that they were determined

243
00:13:55,524 --> 00:13:58,838
to do the most damage possible.

244
00:14:02,634 --> 00:14:05,637
This was a rage-fueled attack

245
00:14:05,637 --> 00:14:09,434
and it wasn't just one
blow or a couple of blows.

246
00:14:09,434 --> 00:14:14,405
This was a lot of
blows to Sandra's head.

247
00:14:14,405 --> 00:14:16,234
- The number one question

248
00:14:16,234 --> 00:14:18,616
that next morning
would've been, who died?

249
00:14:18,616 --> 00:14:19,617
Who was murdered?

250
00:14:19,617 --> 00:14:21,205
And where's Lord Lucan?

251
00:14:21,205 --> 00:14:25,692
I can remember that being a
very fierce topic of debate

252
00:14:25,692 --> 00:14:28,453
where he could possibly be,
where he might be hiding.

253
00:14:31,940 --> 00:14:33,493
Had he done it?

254
00:14:35,012 --> 00:14:37,946
Sandra's identity and details

255
00:14:37,946 --> 00:14:41,052
such as they were would've
come out the next day.

256
00:14:42,295 --> 00:14:44,642
- The police knowledge
of the victim in terms

257
00:14:44,642 --> 00:14:48,025
of victimology was
that she was the nanny

258
00:14:48,025 --> 00:14:49,647
to the three children.

259
00:14:49,647 --> 00:14:52,167
She had only been
working at that address

260
00:14:52,167 --> 00:14:54,031
for about three months.

261
00:14:54,031 --> 00:14:56,274
She only started in August.

262
00:14:56,274 --> 00:14:58,828
It would've become apparent
that the relationship

263
00:14:58,828 --> 00:15:02,349
between Lady Lucan and
Sandra Rivett was healthy.

264
00:15:02,349 --> 00:15:03,178
It was good.

265
00:15:04,593 --> 00:15:08,355
- Sandra Rivett was almost
certainly murdered in error.

266
00:15:08,355 --> 00:15:11,048
The intended victim
had been Lady Lucan.

267
00:15:11,048 --> 00:15:14,534
This appalling set
of circumstances

268
00:15:14,534 --> 00:15:18,572
whereby Sandra, who should
have been on her night off,

269
00:15:18,572 --> 00:15:23,025
descended into the dark
basement of this tall house

270
00:15:23,025 --> 00:15:24,440
to make some tea

271
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,547
and in the dark was
mistaken for Veronica Lucan.

272
00:15:28,755 --> 00:15:31,137
- I think it's quite
quickly forgotten

273
00:15:31,137 --> 00:15:35,037
that while Sandra is the
victim of this piece,

274
00:15:35,037 --> 00:15:37,350
she's the young woman
who lost her life,

275
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:40,215
inexplicably and horribly.

276
00:15:40,215 --> 00:15:43,459
There is another victim
and that's Veronica.

277
00:15:43,459 --> 00:15:47,325
[sombre music]

278
00:15:49,258 --> 00:15:51,605
- I have some sympathy
with Lady Lucan

279
00:15:51,605 --> 00:15:56,438
because I think she did have
mentally challenging issues.

280
00:15:57,784 --> 00:16:01,753
Lord Lucan wasn't a particularly
caring husband to her

281
00:16:01,753 --> 00:16:03,238
and I don't think that

282
00:16:03,238 --> 00:16:06,413
after they got married he
even liked her for long,

283
00:16:06,413 --> 00:16:08,036
from everything that I've heard.

284
00:16:09,934 --> 00:16:14,559
- Towards the end of 1972,
Veronica turns to one

285
00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:16,837
of Lord Lucan's relatives

286
00:16:16,837 --> 00:16:19,185
and describes how
she's been feeling

287
00:16:19,185 --> 00:16:22,153
and she says she
could no longer cope.

288
00:16:24,259 --> 00:16:27,779
She describes how alone
and unhappy she felt.

289
00:16:29,471 --> 00:16:33,233
She spoke of her
husband's mental cruelty

290
00:16:33,233 --> 00:16:37,168
and she hinted at sexual
and physical abuse.

291
00:16:39,377 --> 00:16:40,965
- We have to bear in mind

292
00:16:40,965 --> 00:16:43,347
that the accidental player in
this narrative is Veronica.

293
00:16:43,347 --> 00:16:45,038
She's the person who survived

294
00:16:45,038 --> 00:16:47,454
and who later gave
her testimony, wrote
a book, et cetera.

295
00:16:47,454 --> 00:16:51,010
So we have to treat what
she says with caution,

296
00:16:53,805 --> 00:16:57,671
but certainly she is
very clear about aspects

297
00:16:57,671 --> 00:17:00,191
of their marriage that are
shocking to read about.

298
00:17:00,191 --> 00:17:03,056
You know, the cane that was
in his cupboard that he used

299
00:17:03,056 --> 00:17:04,264
to beat sense into her,

300
00:17:06,956 --> 00:17:09,718
beating out the nonsense
before they had intercourse.

301
00:17:09,718 --> 00:17:11,789
This happened more than once.

302
00:17:13,998 --> 00:17:17,829
- There were
accusations of abuse

303
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:19,176
and control

304
00:17:19,176 --> 00:17:22,903
and stalking, which
are the three classic,

305
00:17:22,903 --> 00:17:27,149
classic risk-markers that
we would expect to see

306
00:17:27,149 --> 00:17:30,359
and I don't think I was
surprised to see them,

307
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,259
but I was surprised
that they were

308
00:17:33,259 --> 00:17:35,226
actually pretty well known,

309
00:17:35,226 --> 00:17:38,712
but nobody seemed to think they
were particularly relevant.

310
00:17:38,712 --> 00:17:41,370
[sombre music continues]

311
00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:43,476
- Lord Lucan and
starts telling people

312
00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:47,583
that Veronica's behaving
oddly, suggesting

313
00:17:47,583 --> 00:17:52,278
that she's mad, making out
that she's harmed herself

314
00:17:52,278 --> 00:17:54,418
by throwing herself
down the stairs.

315
00:17:54,418 --> 00:17:56,558
He says all kinds of
things that starts

316
00:17:56,558 --> 00:18:01,528
to build a very negative picture
of her with other people.

317
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,394
His motives for doing
that feel very devaluing.

318
00:18:05,394 --> 00:18:08,259
It's like, "I've had enough
of this particular person

319
00:18:08,259 --> 00:18:10,779
"and I want them
gone out of my life

320
00:18:10,779 --> 00:18:14,576
"and I will tell whatever story
I need to get what I want."

321
00:18:15,715 --> 00:18:17,682
- The press knew within a day

322
00:18:17,682 --> 00:18:20,133
or two that some
of the basic story

323
00:18:20,133 --> 00:18:23,412
that Lord Lucan wasn't
living at the family home,

324
00:18:23,412 --> 00:18:26,174
that there had
been disagreements

325
00:18:26,174 --> 00:18:28,072
about the custody
of the children.

326
00:18:29,763 --> 00:18:31,696
There were several
custody battles

327
00:18:31,696 --> 00:18:36,287
and Roy showed me the details
of the one that really sank

328
00:18:36,287 --> 00:18:37,806
Lord Lucan in the end.

329
00:18:39,118 --> 00:18:42,776
Veronica reveals that Lord
Lucan had made her dress

330
00:18:42,776 --> 00:18:46,125
in a rubber exercise
suit so that she was hot

331
00:18:46,125 --> 00:18:48,955
and sweaty when they
went to bed together.

332
00:18:48,955 --> 00:18:52,476
He had no clue that
she'd ever used

333
00:18:52,476 --> 00:18:54,788
that information in public.

334
00:18:54,788 --> 00:18:58,516
So when Lord Lucan is sitting
there in the custody hearing

335
00:18:58,516 --> 00:19:02,175
and he has his aged mother,
Caitlin, the Doja Countess

336
00:19:02,175 --> 00:19:04,004
of Lucan at his side

337
00:19:04,004 --> 00:19:07,422
and suddenly out of the blue
Veronica starts revealing

338
00:19:07,422 --> 00:19:12,427
the secrets of their bedroom
sex games and his kinkiness.

339
00:19:14,222 --> 00:19:17,086
He had been so embarrassed
that he hadn't been able

340
00:19:17,086 --> 00:19:20,918
to look at or talk to his
mother for weeks afterwards.

341
00:19:20,918 --> 00:19:23,092
He didn't expect that
to ever come out.

342
00:19:24,404 --> 00:19:26,026
I personally think

343
00:19:26,026 --> 00:19:29,375
that was the moment when Lord
Lucan decided she had to die.

344
00:19:32,999 --> 00:19:37,072
- It's in the official
record that he,

345
00:19:37,072 --> 00:19:40,179
I say manipulated
her in her words,

346
00:19:40,179 --> 00:19:42,526
to go and get
psychiatric treatment.

347
00:19:42,526 --> 00:19:45,977
He told her that
she was going crazy.

348
00:19:45,977 --> 00:19:49,498
He told her that she needed
drugs to keep her stable.

349
00:19:51,914 --> 00:19:56,125
- Veronica Lucan must
have been a lonely person

350
00:19:56,125 --> 00:20:01,027
and Sandra must have filled
a hole in her emotional

351
00:20:01,027 --> 00:20:03,512
and you know, social life.

352
00:20:03,512 --> 00:20:05,894
So they probably
were getting on okay,

353
00:20:05,894 --> 00:20:08,137
they were getting on well
enough for the children

354
00:20:08,137 --> 00:20:09,518
to really like her.

355
00:20:09,518 --> 00:20:13,212
They told their dad that
she was a very nice nanny

356
00:20:13,212 --> 00:20:16,042
and that everything
seemed to be going fine.

357
00:20:16,042 --> 00:20:19,045
[gentle piano music]

358
00:20:20,702 --> 00:20:24,326
- Sandra Elanor Hensby was born

359
00:20:24,326 --> 00:20:27,674
on the 16th of September, 1945.

360
00:20:27,674 --> 00:20:31,437
Her parents were
Eunice and Albert

361
00:20:31,437 --> 00:20:35,234
and she had three sisters,
two older, one younger.

362
00:20:36,959 --> 00:20:39,479
According to her school
report, she was bright

363
00:20:39,479 --> 00:20:41,343
but not academic.

364
00:20:41,343 --> 00:20:45,761
She left school at age 14,
which was not that unusual then.

365
00:20:47,107 --> 00:20:50,214
And then went out to work,
which is what women did

366
00:20:50,214 --> 00:20:51,974
before they got married.

367
00:20:51,974 --> 00:20:55,771
First she trained
to be a hairdresser,
but then she moved on

368
00:20:55,771 --> 00:20:57,635
and became a secretary.

369
00:20:58,809 --> 00:21:00,707
- Sandra lived in
the flats near me,

370
00:21:01,915 --> 00:21:04,573
we were all teenagers
starting out on life

371
00:21:04,573 --> 00:21:05,988
and enjoying meeting people

372
00:21:05,988 --> 00:21:08,508
and looking forward
to, well, deciding

373
00:21:08,508 --> 00:21:10,717
what you're gonna do
the rest of your life.

374
00:21:12,132 --> 00:21:14,618
I took Sandra on one occasion

375
00:21:14,618 --> 00:21:17,690
to a dance in the
barracks next door to us

376
00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:19,692
where the army was.

377
00:21:19,692 --> 00:21:22,073
It was always very nice, danced

378
00:21:22,073 --> 00:21:23,972
and met all the people there.

379
00:21:25,042 --> 00:21:27,562
I was 20 when I met my husband,

380
00:21:27,562 --> 00:21:28,977
I was at a dance at the barracks

381
00:21:28,977 --> 00:21:32,049
and he got me to pull
out the raffle tickets

382
00:21:32,049 --> 00:21:33,361
and then he asked me out

383
00:21:33,361 --> 00:21:34,810
and then we went out
together for a while

384
00:21:34,810 --> 00:21:37,641
and then we decided to get
married and that was it.

385
00:21:37,641 --> 00:21:42,024
- In 1963 when she was 17, 18,

386
00:21:42,024 --> 00:21:44,303
Sandra had mental health issues

387
00:21:44,303 --> 00:21:47,685
and she did spend a bit
of time in a hospital.

388
00:21:47,685 --> 00:21:50,378
That was after a
very bad breakup,

389
00:21:50,378 --> 00:21:51,931
which I suppose is possible.

390
00:21:51,931 --> 00:21:55,383
You know girls are very
susceptible at that age,

391
00:21:55,383 --> 00:21:59,145
but that seems to
have resolved itself.

392
00:21:59,145 --> 00:22:01,837
But it was significant
in another way

393
00:22:01,837 --> 00:22:06,221
in that she met a guy there
slightly older who was working

394
00:22:06,221 --> 00:22:08,430
as a builder at the hospital

395
00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:12,572
and they fell for each
other, young love,

396
00:22:12,572 --> 00:22:16,990
and when she was discharged,

397
00:22:16,990 --> 00:22:19,717
they carried on
seeing each other

398
00:22:19,717 --> 00:22:22,030
and announced their engagement.

399
00:22:23,169 --> 00:22:26,275
- Very soon after
Sandra becomes pregnant

400
00:22:26,275 --> 00:22:28,795
and she wants to get
married to this guy

401
00:22:28,795 --> 00:22:32,972
and he gets cold feet
and starts to withdraw

402
00:22:32,972 --> 00:22:34,594
and tells her, "You know what,

403
00:22:34,594 --> 00:22:35,837
"I'm not gonna go
ahead with this."

404
00:22:35,837 --> 00:22:38,149
And this leaves
Sandra heartbroken

405
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:42,257
and on top of that, she's
also pregnant at a time

406
00:22:42,257 --> 00:22:46,434
where single women pregnant,

407
00:22:46,434 --> 00:22:48,850
unable to look for support,

408
00:22:48,850 --> 00:22:50,886
would've left her
in a very isolated

409
00:22:50,886 --> 00:22:52,992
and tricky position.

410
00:22:52,992 --> 00:22:55,512
[sombre music]

411
00:22:56,513 --> 00:22:57,376
[laughs]

412
00:22:57,376 --> 00:22:59,378
- Contraceptive options.

413
00:23:01,138 --> 00:23:04,037
Really the only way

414
00:23:04,037 --> 00:23:09,077
of not getting pregnant
was to not have sex.

415
00:23:09,664 --> 00:23:11,907
[sombre music]

416
00:23:13,599 --> 00:23:16,187
- If girls had carried
anything like condoms

417
00:23:16,187 --> 00:23:20,053
in the 60s, they would've
been classed as loose women.

418
00:23:20,053 --> 00:23:23,263
It was a different world then
you had to be more aware.

419
00:23:25,887 --> 00:23:29,580
- The contraceptive pill
is not legalised until 1961

420
00:23:29,580 --> 00:23:33,239
and it's certainly not
available to anyone initially.

421
00:23:33,239 --> 00:23:35,275
Wait for it, you
have to be married

422
00:23:35,275 --> 00:23:38,555
and with one child to get
the contraceptive pill

423
00:23:38,555 --> 00:23:39,832
in the early 1960s.

424
00:23:40,936 --> 00:23:45,113
- Abortion wasn't
legal until 1967,

425
00:23:45,113 --> 00:23:46,908
she was either gonna
become a single mother

426
00:23:46,908 --> 00:23:49,704
or she would do what a
lot of young women did,

427
00:23:49,704 --> 00:23:51,775
which was give the
baby up for adoption

428
00:23:51,775 --> 00:23:54,225
and that is what
she prepared to do.

429
00:23:55,226 --> 00:23:56,814
But then her parents stepped in

430
00:23:56,814 --> 00:23:58,644
and said that they
would bring him up

431
00:23:58,644 --> 00:24:00,818
and the baby believed

432
00:24:00,818 --> 00:24:04,408
that Sandra was his older
sister, which was quite common.

433
00:24:08,136 --> 00:24:12,312
So moving on three
years, we are in 1967,

434
00:24:12,312 --> 00:24:17,352
Sandra was having a relationship
with a local estate agent

435
00:24:18,664 --> 00:24:20,286
and he was married so it
didn't have a lot of future,

436
00:24:20,286 --> 00:24:23,082
unluckily got pregnant again.

437
00:24:23,082 --> 00:24:25,774
So she went down to her
older sister Theresa,

438
00:24:25,774 --> 00:24:27,189
who lived in Portsmouth

439
00:24:27,189 --> 00:24:29,329
and this time she didn't
really have a lot of choice

440
00:24:29,329 --> 00:24:31,400
but to give the baby
up for adoption.

441
00:24:33,817 --> 00:24:35,197
- That's quite
standard to move away

442
00:24:35,197 --> 00:24:37,268
when you're pregnant,
you don't wanna be seen,

443
00:24:37,268 --> 00:24:39,478
don't wanna bring the
family's name down

444
00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:44,068
and she gives birth when
she's dating the man

445
00:24:44,068 --> 00:24:46,899
who becomes her
husband, Roger Rivett.

446
00:24:46,899 --> 00:24:49,280
The baby, they don't
keep, for whatever reason,

447
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,869
they decide they
can't manage the child

448
00:24:51,869 --> 00:24:54,009
who is subsequently
given up for adoption.

449
00:24:56,322 --> 00:24:57,841
- When I was
researching the book,

450
00:24:57,841 --> 00:25:00,844
I found the adoption
letter for the baby.

451
00:25:02,397 --> 00:25:05,331
I'm pleased to tell you we
have a baby son for you.

452
00:25:06,574 --> 00:25:08,472
- [Tessa] He was born
on February the fourth

453
00:25:08,472 --> 00:25:11,544
and weighs seven
pounds, eight ounces.

454
00:25:11,544 --> 00:25:14,305
- His mother is a
single girl, age 21.

455
00:25:14,305 --> 00:25:16,342
She already has one little boy

456
00:25:16,342 --> 00:25:19,345
who at the moment is being
cared for by her parents

457
00:25:19,345 --> 00:25:21,278
and she feels she
cannot possibly

458
00:25:21,278 --> 00:25:24,592
bring the baby up
properly herself.

459
00:25:24,592 --> 00:25:26,766
- The baby's father
is a man she's known

460
00:25:26,766 --> 00:25:28,285
for quite a long time.

461
00:25:28,285 --> 00:25:31,288
Unfortunately while his wife
had a period in hospital,

462
00:25:31,288 --> 00:25:33,462
she visited his home on
a number of occasions

463
00:25:33,462 --> 00:25:34,947
to help in the house.

464
00:25:34,947 --> 00:25:37,708
Intercourse occurred
and she became pregnant.

465
00:25:38,985 --> 00:25:40,849
- She did not want to
break his marriage,

466
00:25:40,849 --> 00:25:42,886
so came away from the area.

467
00:25:44,404 --> 00:25:46,821
God, that tells a
tale, doesn't it?

468
00:25:46,821 --> 00:25:49,478
[sombre music continues]

469
00:25:49,478 --> 00:25:51,550
I think it's pretty sad, really.

470
00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:53,103
She was very attractive

471
00:25:53,103 --> 00:25:56,624
and it sounds like she was quite
susceptible and she was 21.

472
00:25:56,624 --> 00:26:00,662
It's not very old and it sounds
like the bloke might have

473
00:26:00,662 --> 00:26:03,976
thought his lucky day had come

474
00:26:03,976 --> 00:26:05,633
when his wife was in hospital.

475
00:26:07,807 --> 00:26:12,605
- Sandra had very few
life choices when it came

476
00:26:12,605 --> 00:26:14,780
to how she lived her life.

477
00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:17,196
But at the same
time, I get the sense

478
00:26:17,196 --> 00:26:21,856
that Sandra was a very carefree,

479
00:26:21,856 --> 00:26:23,651
energetic kind of human being.

480
00:26:23,651 --> 00:26:25,998
So she was almost ahead
of her time in the way

481
00:26:25,998 --> 00:26:27,586
that she was living.

482
00:26:28,725 --> 00:26:31,728
- Her sister Teresa
subsequently says,

483
00:26:31,728 --> 00:26:34,109
"My sister said
she loved children

484
00:26:34,109 --> 00:26:36,111
:but she wasn't cut
out to have them."

485
00:26:36,111 --> 00:26:37,630
Theresa is trying

486
00:26:37,630 --> 00:26:41,634
to justify why her sister didn't
bring up her own children,

487
00:26:41,634 --> 00:26:43,187
but she doesn't need to

488
00:26:43,187 --> 00:26:45,362
because we know in
that decade, in the 60s

489
00:26:45,362 --> 00:26:48,883
and the 70s, the
majority of girls

490
00:26:48,883 --> 00:26:52,507
who had children out of
wedlock could not keep them.

491
00:26:55,579 --> 00:26:58,202
We were the highest year

492
00:26:58,202 --> 00:27:02,103
for adoption rates in
Britain in the 60s.

493
00:27:02,103 --> 00:27:03,932
1968,

494
00:27:03,932 --> 00:27:08,109
24,000 babies adopted.

495
00:27:08,109 --> 00:27:12,285
That is how many girls
were trying their luck.

496
00:27:12,285 --> 00:27:16,738
Didn't know how to say no, fell
the wrong side of the gamble

497
00:27:16,738 --> 00:27:19,327
and had a baby that
was illegitimate.

498
00:27:19,327 --> 00:27:22,295
[babies crying]

499
00:27:22,295 --> 00:27:25,782
- She married Roger
Rivett when she was 22.

500
00:27:25,782 --> 00:27:29,130
They got married in a
registry office in Croydon.

501
00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:31,442
He was away at sea
a lot of the time.

502
00:27:31,442 --> 00:27:33,513
Apparently he got
suspicious when she used

503
00:27:33,513 --> 00:27:35,723
to write regularly and then
the letters became a bit

504
00:27:35,723 --> 00:27:37,345
less frequent.

505
00:27:37,345 --> 00:27:38,760
- He's in the Navy.

506
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,589
I mean she's quite lonely
I think when he's away,

507
00:27:40,589 --> 00:27:42,212
but she's always working.

508
00:27:42,212 --> 00:27:45,249
- In 1969, Roger
came back to England.

509
00:27:45,249 --> 00:27:49,184
I think the marriage
probably got back on track.

510
00:27:49,184 --> 00:27:51,877
Sandra was actually
working at an orphanage.

511
00:27:51,877 --> 00:27:53,395
She started as a cleaner,

512
00:27:53,395 --> 00:27:55,881
but I think she
got more involved

513
00:27:55,881 --> 00:27:58,090
with working with the children.

514
00:27:58,090 --> 00:28:01,507
But then we go to 1973

515
00:28:01,507 --> 00:28:04,475
and Roger went
back to sea again.

516
00:28:04,475 --> 00:28:08,238
We had that pattern of letters
becoming less frequent.

517
00:28:08,238 --> 00:28:11,241
And then the final,
the sort of climax

518
00:28:11,241 --> 00:28:13,933
came in May of 1974.

519
00:28:13,933 --> 00:28:16,556
They had a huge row and he left.

520
00:28:16,556 --> 00:28:17,488
That was the end.

521
00:28:18,697 --> 00:28:20,008
- We know that when the
marriage breaks down,

522
00:28:20,008 --> 00:28:21,769
she moves up to London.

523
00:28:21,769 --> 00:28:24,219
[sombre music continues]

524
00:28:25,496 --> 00:28:27,878
- She seemed to experience
a new lease of life

525
00:28:27,878 --> 00:28:30,363
after separating from
Roger, she was going out,

526
00:28:30,363 --> 00:28:32,952
she was engaging with friends,
she was having a good time

527
00:28:32,952 --> 00:28:36,784
and she puts her name
down for domestic service.

528
00:28:36,784 --> 00:28:40,132
She has one job that's
fairly short-lived

529
00:28:40,132 --> 00:28:43,031
and then her next job
is with the Lucans.

530
00:28:43,998 --> 00:28:46,759
[suspenseful music]

531
00:28:50,107 --> 00:28:54,008
- That was sort of paralleled
almost by the dislocation

532
00:28:54,008 --> 00:28:57,494
and breakdown of
Veronica's marriage

533
00:28:57,494 --> 00:29:00,152
and I think that's one of
the reasons why the girls,

534
00:29:00,152 --> 00:29:01,670
the women hit it off.

535
00:29:01,670 --> 00:29:03,776
And actually Veronica says
herself, these were happy times.

536
00:29:03,776 --> 00:29:05,226
They laughed a lot together.

537
00:29:06,641 --> 00:29:10,127
- She was employed to be a
nanny to the three children

538
00:29:10,127 --> 00:29:14,200
of the Lucan marriage,
Francis, George and Camilla.

539
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,031
The wage was 25 pounds a week,

540
00:29:17,031 --> 00:29:20,172
which even in modern
money isn't very much,

541
00:29:20,172 --> 00:29:21,863
but of course she
had accommodation.

542
00:29:21,863 --> 00:29:26,005
She was living in a
house in Belgravia,

543
00:29:26,005 --> 00:29:29,250
a really very lovely house.

544
00:29:29,250 --> 00:29:33,426
She hadn't even unpacked all
her things when she died.

545
00:29:35,014 --> 00:29:37,568
[tense music]

546
00:29:48,752 --> 00:29:51,651
- Veronica was a fairly
challenging employer,

547
00:29:51,651 --> 00:29:55,103
but nonetheless Sandra
knows how to please people,

548
00:29:55,103 --> 00:29:57,796
it's one of the things that
makes Sandra so appealing,

549
00:29:57,796 --> 00:29:59,314
so attractive.

550
00:29:59,314 --> 00:30:03,215
- She was one of a long
procession of nannies.

551
00:30:05,355 --> 00:30:08,047
There was one that
only lasted four days.

552
00:30:08,047 --> 00:30:10,084
There was one that
lasted a bit longer.

553
00:30:10,084 --> 00:30:14,640
There were 6, 7, 8, I
don't know, it's not clear.

554
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,091
But anyway, she arrived

555
00:30:18,333 --> 00:30:20,853
and it seems to
have been a success.

556
00:30:24,443 --> 00:30:26,065
- Both Sandra

557
00:30:26,065 --> 00:30:31,070
and Veronica in their own lives
had psychological struggles.

558
00:30:32,209 --> 00:30:34,349
They'd had real challenges
and difficulties

559
00:30:34,349 --> 00:30:37,076
and they were trying

560
00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:39,976
to find their way
in their own lives

561
00:30:39,976 --> 00:30:43,151
and this is the point at
which they come together under

562
00:30:43,151 --> 00:30:48,122
Veronica's roof and they
make sense to one another.

563
00:30:50,469 --> 00:30:51,850
- What's interesting is noting

564
00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:53,921
how Sandra checked in
on Veronica when she

565
00:30:53,921 --> 00:30:55,267
wasn't working the weekends.

566
00:30:55,267 --> 00:30:58,857
She picked up on her
employer's vulnerability

567
00:30:58,857 --> 00:31:02,791
and Veronica felt able to share

568
00:31:02,791 --> 00:31:04,310
that vulnerability with Sandra.

569
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:06,209
There was a kinship.

570
00:31:06,209 --> 00:31:09,453
There clearly was a
feeling of mutual sympathy.

571
00:31:09,453 --> 00:31:12,629
They understood each
other's circumstances.

572
00:31:15,632 --> 00:31:19,084
[bright music]

573
00:31:19,084 --> 00:31:21,845
- Veronica Duncan as she was,

574
00:31:21,845 --> 00:31:24,330
was born in 1937.

575
00:31:25,435 --> 00:31:28,369
She had a younger
sister, Christina

576
00:31:28,369 --> 00:31:31,372
and her father was
an army officer

577
00:31:31,372 --> 00:31:33,374
who was killed when
she was quite young.

578
00:31:33,374 --> 00:31:36,446
He was killed in a car crash,
but her mother married again

579
00:31:36,446 --> 00:31:40,312
and they spent some of their
childhood in South Africa.

580
00:31:40,312 --> 00:31:44,005
- Her and her sister Christina
are sent to boarding school

581
00:31:44,005 --> 00:31:47,388
and I think this is
incredibly difficult

582
00:31:47,388 --> 00:31:49,804
for the very young Veronica.

583
00:31:49,804 --> 00:31:53,049
Her and her sister are bullied
for a number of reasons,

584
00:31:53,049 --> 00:31:57,398
which makes life for Veronica
incredibly difficult.

585
00:31:57,398 --> 00:32:01,091
And I think her mother
struggles with what to do,

586
00:32:01,091 --> 00:32:05,371
sends Veronica to a psychiatrist

587
00:32:05,371 --> 00:32:09,479
who labels her, a troubled child

588
00:32:09,479 --> 00:32:13,828
and I think that's where
some of her issues begin.

589
00:32:15,864 --> 00:32:19,144
- The family left
South Africa in 1949.

590
00:32:19,144 --> 00:32:21,180
They came back and
they lived quite near

591
00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:24,011
where Sandra was
born in Basingstoke.

592
00:32:24,011 --> 00:32:28,187
The stepfather ran a pub
called the Wheatsheaf.

593
00:32:28,187 --> 00:32:30,845
I can remember one of
the policemen talking

594
00:32:30,845 --> 00:32:31,915
to me about Veronica

595
00:32:31,915 --> 00:32:33,710
and he said, she always said,

596
00:32:33,710 --> 00:32:36,092
"I am a Countess of the realm."

597
00:32:36,092 --> 00:32:39,129
And he said she
grew up in a pub,

598
00:32:39,129 --> 00:32:40,337
but they were the daughters

599
00:32:40,337 --> 00:32:42,408
of an army officer
and what have you.

600
00:32:42,408 --> 00:32:46,033
She was very status aware,
Veronica, no question.

601
00:32:47,137 --> 00:32:49,174
- Veronica got
herself up to London.

602
00:32:49,174 --> 00:32:51,107
She tried her hand
at various jobs.

603
00:32:51,107 --> 00:32:52,039
She wasn't a sticker.

604
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:53,247
She left art college.

605
00:32:53,247 --> 00:32:54,213
She couldn't really
bear the idea

606
00:32:54,213 --> 00:32:56,250
of doing four years on a course.

607
00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:57,837
Now that again
doesn't surprise me.

608
00:32:57,837 --> 00:32:59,736
Nobody had long-term
really invested in her

609
00:32:59,736 --> 00:33:00,909
or spent time with her.

610
00:33:00,909 --> 00:33:02,118
She'd never lived
or been settled in

611
00:33:02,118 --> 00:33:03,498
one place for that long.

612
00:33:04,879 --> 00:33:07,399
- By now, Veronica is 25

613
00:33:07,399 --> 00:33:10,160
and very hard for
us to understand.

614
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,645
But that was then
getting to the point

615
00:33:12,645 --> 00:33:14,130
of why aren't you married?

616
00:33:14,130 --> 00:33:17,512
You know the shelf,
the dreaded shelf,

617
00:33:19,031 --> 00:33:22,034
I suppose the shelf
was when you were 30,

618
00:33:22,034 --> 00:33:25,831
but 25 is, you know,
the shelf is visible.

619
00:33:25,831 --> 00:33:27,419
One of the things
that was said was

620
00:33:27,419 --> 00:33:30,974
that Veronica had a complex
about being very, very small.

621
00:33:30,974 --> 00:33:32,113
She was, she was tiny.

622
00:33:32,113 --> 00:33:34,978
She was like a
China doll almost.

623
00:33:34,978 --> 00:33:39,569
And she thought that being small
was a sign of bad breeding.

624
00:33:40,673 --> 00:33:43,262
- Veronica absolutely
felt single.

625
00:33:43,262 --> 00:33:46,231
She tells us later in
her memoir, she admits,

626
00:33:46,231 --> 00:33:48,716
she says herself, "I cannot
stress the importance

627
00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:51,029
"of getting married for
my generation of women."

628
00:33:53,134 --> 00:33:54,894
Of course, a situation
for her, compounded

629
00:33:54,894 --> 00:33:56,896
by the fact her younger sister,

630
00:33:56,896 --> 00:34:00,693
she had a successful marriage
into the Shand Kydd dynasty

631
00:34:00,693 --> 00:34:02,178
and all the trappings of wealth

632
00:34:02,178 --> 00:34:04,283
and prestige that came with it.

633
00:34:04,283 --> 00:34:06,354
Poor old Veronica
wasn't quite so lucky.

634
00:34:06,354 --> 00:34:09,047
- Christina married
Bill Shand Kydd

635
00:34:09,047 --> 00:34:11,394
who was very
connected, connections

636
00:34:11,394 --> 00:34:14,776
to the late Princess
of Wales, Diana.

637
00:34:14,776 --> 00:34:16,123
A rich man,

638
00:34:16,123 --> 00:34:20,127
but that put Veronica
in an orbit if you like,

639
00:34:20,127 --> 00:34:22,474
because she could visit
Bill and Christina

640
00:34:22,474 --> 00:34:25,063
and there would've
been Bill's friends.

641
00:34:25,063 --> 00:34:28,652
[tense music]

642
00:34:30,896 --> 00:34:34,624
One of Bill Shand
Kydd's friends was

643
00:34:34,624 --> 00:34:38,248
the then John Bingham who
would become Lord Lucan.

644
00:34:43,046 --> 00:34:46,187
John Bingham was beyond
her wildest dreams.

645
00:34:46,187 --> 00:34:48,914
She would've thought
he was a god.

646
00:34:48,914 --> 00:34:52,573
He was regarded as
extremely good looking.

647
00:34:52,573 --> 00:34:55,679
I mean, he was asked to
test for films and so on.

648
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:57,716
He was a catch, no question.

649
00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:00,960
And possibly she may have
thought a better catch

650
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,171
than Bill Shand Kydd, which I
think she might have enjoyed.

651
00:35:06,552 --> 00:35:11,039
- Lucan was considered
as a possible James Bond.

652
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:14,802
I mean, he was a handsome
man, he was very sporty.

653
00:35:14,802 --> 00:35:18,564
He raced powerboats and
he was really good at it.

654
00:35:20,877 --> 00:35:24,708
When you look at it, if I was
producing a James Bond movie

655
00:35:24,708 --> 00:35:26,538
and I needed a character,

656
00:35:26,538 --> 00:35:31,577
then a powerboat racing,
handsome, bobsleigh skiing,

657
00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:35,857
gambling aristocrat is
a pretty good choice.

658
00:35:36,858 --> 00:35:38,481
He would've been
a good James Bond.

659
00:35:40,621 --> 00:35:43,071
- It always reminds
me a little bit

660
00:35:43,071 --> 00:35:47,145
of when Diana met Prince
Charles, you know,

661
00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:49,906
and they seemed to
understand each other

662
00:35:49,906 --> 00:35:54,842
and he may have thought
this sweet young girl will

663
00:35:54,842 --> 00:35:57,293
be a nice docile wife.

664
00:35:57,293 --> 00:35:59,536
And she seemed to understand him

665
00:35:59,536 --> 00:36:02,021
and Lucan said to her,
you know, "I'm a gambler.

666
00:36:02,021 --> 00:36:03,782
I'm gonna, this is
my way of life."

667
00:36:03,782 --> 00:36:05,370
And she said to him,
"Oh no, that's fine.

668
00:36:05,370 --> 00:36:06,923
"That doesn't matter at all."

669
00:36:06,923 --> 00:36:10,444
[gentle piano music]

670
00:36:10,444 --> 00:36:13,964
- Lord Lucan operated
in a clandestine world,

671
00:36:13,964 --> 00:36:16,484
the Clermont Club, this
is a gambling fraternity.

672
00:36:16,484 --> 00:36:20,557
They're operating without
the standard norms of society

673
00:36:20,557 --> 00:36:23,181
and they are very
much a boys club.

674
00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:27,461
In an old school world
where class, status, wealth

675
00:36:27,461 --> 00:36:29,704
and title really
meant something,

676
00:36:29,704 --> 00:36:32,569
[gentle piano music continues]

677
00:36:33,984 --> 00:36:37,540
- By the time that they are
married, it becomes clear

678
00:36:37,540 --> 00:36:41,164
that Lord Lucan's friends
don't really think that much

679
00:36:41,164 --> 00:36:42,786
of Veronica.

680
00:36:42,786 --> 00:36:44,961
She's not one of their set.

681
00:36:44,961 --> 00:36:47,895
And I think this message
is reinforced when she goes

682
00:36:47,895 --> 00:36:51,588
to the Clermont Club
where she is made

683
00:36:51,588 --> 00:36:53,487
to sit on the widow's bench

684
00:36:53,487 --> 00:36:57,663
and he is at the
centre gambling,

685
00:36:57,663 --> 00:37:01,702
doing whatever he wants
to do as the man's man.

686
00:37:01,702 --> 00:37:05,568
[dramatic music]

687
00:37:05,568 --> 00:37:10,469
- Lord Lucan was living in
a quite a misogynistic time

688
00:37:10,469 --> 00:37:12,402
in history.

689
00:37:12,402 --> 00:37:15,267
He certainly thought he
was superior to women.

690
00:37:16,441 --> 00:37:20,514
He recognised that
Veronica was actually

691
00:37:20,514 --> 00:37:24,759
quite an intelligent,
witty, quick woman,

692
00:37:24,759 --> 00:37:26,382
and he said to her,

693
00:37:27,590 --> 00:37:29,626
there can only be one
captain of the ship.

694
00:37:29,626 --> 00:37:32,905
That's like,
"Whatever I say goes,

695
00:37:32,905 --> 00:37:34,769
" it doesn't matter if
you think you know better

696
00:37:34,769 --> 00:37:37,220
"or even if you
actually do know better.

697
00:37:37,220 --> 00:37:39,222
"I'm the captain of this ship."

698
00:37:41,328 --> 00:37:45,228
He started to
undermine Veronica,

699
00:37:45,228 --> 00:37:47,368
and one of the ways
that he started

700
00:37:47,368 --> 00:37:50,958
to undermine Veronica was to
question her mental health,

701
00:37:50,958 --> 00:37:53,409
her emotional stability.

702
00:37:53,409 --> 00:37:57,171
And this was something
that got a lot worse

703
00:37:57,171 --> 00:37:58,448
and worse over time.

704
00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:01,002
- The Lucans had three children.

705
00:38:01,002 --> 00:38:04,730
Francis was born
in 1964, George,

706
00:38:04,730 --> 00:38:07,802
so the heir, was born in 1967

707
00:38:07,802 --> 00:38:10,218
and Camilla was born in 1970

708
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,983
and there were questions
of postnatal depression.

709
00:38:18,606 --> 00:38:21,713
- Veronica was
known to rock back

710
00:38:21,713 --> 00:38:25,475
and forth from a very early age,

711
00:38:25,475 --> 00:38:29,341
and she was seen doing
this in the Clermont Club,

712
00:38:29,341 --> 00:38:32,551
and I think that
might have been a way

713
00:38:32,551 --> 00:38:36,486
of self-soothing whatever
she was experiencing,

714
00:38:36,486 --> 00:38:38,764
and I think it's just
one of those behaviours

715
00:38:38,764 --> 00:38:42,768
that she found helpful without
consciously being aware that

716
00:38:42,768 --> 00:38:44,045
that's what she was doing.

717
00:38:44,045 --> 00:38:46,738
It was something almost
very primal to her.

718
00:38:48,740 --> 00:38:51,467
- There were two
incidents in 1972.

719
00:38:51,467 --> 00:38:54,297
One was that the Lucans
were at the Clermont Club

720
00:38:54,297 --> 00:38:57,576
and Veronica threw a glass
of wine in a woman's face,

721
00:38:57,576 --> 00:39:01,166
which was like a thunderbolt.

722
00:39:03,375 --> 00:39:05,170
People had been sort of more

723
00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:08,587
and more saying, "Oh,
she's a nightmare."

724
00:39:08,587 --> 00:39:10,658
Which you can
interpret as you wish,

725
00:39:10,658 --> 00:39:12,004
but the fact is she
did throw a glass

726
00:39:12,004 --> 00:39:13,592
of wine in someone's face.

727
00:39:13,592 --> 00:39:16,595
You might be sympathetic to
her for doing it, but she did.

728
00:39:16,595 --> 00:39:21,013
And then the second thing was
that she sacked this nanny,

729
00:39:21,013 --> 00:39:23,015
the long-term nanny,

730
00:39:23,015 --> 00:39:25,673
and that seems to have been
the last straw for Lucan.

731
00:39:25,673 --> 00:39:29,643
[sombre music]

732
00:39:32,266 --> 00:39:34,061
- The family was
clearly in crisis.

733
00:39:34,061 --> 00:39:35,959
He moves out of
the marital home.

734
00:39:35,959 --> 00:39:39,584
Clermont Club is sold, his
gambling's out of control.

735
00:39:39,584 --> 00:39:41,862
He's having to spend a lot
of money claiming custody or

736
00:39:41,862 --> 00:39:43,864
otherwise of his children.

737
00:39:43,864 --> 00:39:46,763
Building up to the
main custody battle.

738
00:39:46,763 --> 00:39:50,146
She has to prove that she's
mentally capable of looking

739
00:39:50,146 --> 00:39:52,562
after those children, of
being the primary parent.

740
00:39:52,562 --> 00:39:55,910
So she checks herself into
the priory and is assessed.

741
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:57,636
- She had a guy
from the priory come

742
00:39:57,636 --> 00:39:59,673
and say that she was
completely cured.

743
00:39:59,673 --> 00:40:01,157
As long as she kept
taking the right drugs,

744
00:40:01,157 --> 00:40:02,434
she was completely cured.

745
00:40:05,023 --> 00:40:07,266
She won the hearing and
all the things she'd said

746
00:40:07,266 --> 00:40:10,028
about Lucan which were meant
to be kept under wraps,

747
00:40:10,028 --> 00:40:11,547
all came out.

748
00:40:11,547 --> 00:40:13,997
You know all these things
about his sexual deviancy

749
00:40:13,997 --> 00:40:16,310
and his general violence,

750
00:40:16,310 --> 00:40:19,175
general ghastliness,
all this came out.

751
00:40:19,175 --> 00:40:22,385
[sombre music continues]

752
00:40:22,385 --> 00:40:27,183
- Veronica is told she has to
have a nanny to help her look

753
00:40:27,183 --> 00:40:28,840
after the children full time.

754
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,152
And this is hugely problematic.

755
00:40:33,879 --> 00:40:37,952
- Sandra, she'd had
quite a few predecessors

756
00:40:37,952 --> 00:40:40,783
over the previous year or so.

757
00:40:42,681 --> 00:40:44,649
- My name is Pierrete Goletto.

758
00:40:44,649 --> 00:40:47,859
I am French by birth

759
00:40:47,859 --> 00:40:51,483
and Italian by both my parents.

760
00:40:51,483 --> 00:40:54,452
I live with the Lucan
family for a long time

761
00:40:54,452 --> 00:40:56,488
of I think over a year,

762
00:40:56,488 --> 00:40:58,835
and I look after the
three little children.

763
00:40:58,835 --> 00:41:01,528
[gentle piano music]

764
00:41:01,528 --> 00:41:05,980
In 1974, I saw an advert of

765
00:41:05,980 --> 00:41:09,881
an agency looking for nannies.

766
00:41:09,881 --> 00:41:13,712
I was told that the nanny
before me lasted for a few days.

767
00:41:14,886 --> 00:41:17,302
I have to go to a
lawyer to be accepted.

768
00:41:17,302 --> 00:41:20,443
The lawyer, and I
remember his question,

769
00:41:20,443 --> 00:41:23,998
"Will you stay if they have
trouble in the family?"

770
00:41:23,998 --> 00:41:25,897
I say, "I am here to
protect the children,

771
00:41:25,897 --> 00:41:27,968
"to take them away from it.

772
00:41:27,968 --> 00:41:28,969
"That's all."

773
00:41:28,969 --> 00:41:30,349
And then he said to me,

774
00:41:30,349 --> 00:41:33,732
"Right, you got the job.
You can start. Great."

775
00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:36,908
I really loved the children.

776
00:41:36,908 --> 00:41:38,219
Really, really.

777
00:41:39,393 --> 00:41:41,706
Camilla was about
two and a half.

778
00:41:41,706 --> 00:41:44,467
George was about five.

779
00:41:44,467 --> 00:41:45,917
Francis was the biggest one.

780
00:41:45,917 --> 00:41:47,505
She was about seven.

781
00:41:47,505 --> 00:41:49,023
We get up in the morning,

782
00:41:49,023 --> 00:41:51,923
I bring the food up in the
nursery, we eat up there.

783
00:41:51,923 --> 00:41:53,476
We have a lot of fun.

784
00:41:53,476 --> 00:41:56,997
We read the story,
get ready, take

785
00:41:56,997 --> 00:42:00,241
Francisca to the school,
George would stay with me,

786
00:42:00,241 --> 00:42:02,761
then I cook the supper.

787
00:42:02,761 --> 00:42:06,282
This was seven days a week,
but on Sunday it was fun

788
00:42:06,282 --> 00:42:08,008
because we could go to the park.

789
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:12,633
[tense music]

790
00:42:19,191 --> 00:42:22,609
- This isn't a standard nannying
situation, bearing in mind

791
00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:27,061
that it's not normal
to be fighting the
custody of children.

792
00:42:29,098 --> 00:42:32,515
Divorce isn't commonplace
in the early 1970s,

793
00:42:32,515 --> 00:42:36,174
so the situation is unusual.

794
00:42:36,174 --> 00:42:37,969
It's highly charged

795
00:42:37,969 --> 00:42:41,938
and I would think challenging,
emotionally challenging.

796
00:42:44,354 --> 00:42:47,668
- I remember clearly my first
meeting with Lady Lucan,

797
00:42:47,668 --> 00:42:49,221
with Veronica.

798
00:42:49,221 --> 00:42:52,362
I was lying on the floor,
playing with the children.

799
00:42:52,362 --> 00:42:55,573
She said to me, "Is this
the way you do in France?"

800
00:42:55,573 --> 00:42:58,955
I said, "This this the
way the children like it."

801
00:42:58,955 --> 00:43:00,370
And she just walk away.

802
00:43:02,752 --> 00:43:06,238
The children didn't see their
mother sometime for weeks,

803
00:43:06,238 --> 00:43:09,448
and when I was seeing her
dancing around the table

804
00:43:09,448 --> 00:43:13,176
with a bottle of vodka,

805
00:43:13,176 --> 00:43:15,385
I knew it wasn't the
time to talk to her.

806
00:43:17,284 --> 00:43:19,700
- What one did
here repeatedly was

807
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:21,702
that Lucan was a
very hands-on father,

808
00:43:21,702 --> 00:43:24,912
unusually so for, you
might say, the time,

809
00:43:24,912 --> 00:43:26,120
the class, whatever,

810
00:43:28,536 --> 00:43:31,056
he was a very
affectionate father.

811
00:43:31,056 --> 00:43:34,542
I remember speaking to a
nanny of the children of one

812
00:43:34,542 --> 00:43:37,407
of his friends and she
said he was the only one

813
00:43:37,407 --> 00:43:39,927
who came into the nursery.

814
00:43:39,927 --> 00:43:42,654
[gentle music]

815
00:43:43,724 --> 00:43:45,450
- He was living down the road.

816
00:43:45,450 --> 00:43:48,798
I think it was Elizabeth
Street if I remember rightly,

817
00:43:48,798 --> 00:43:51,318
because sometime I was in
the dining room downstairs

818
00:43:51,318 --> 00:43:54,183
studying when he was
coming at two o'clock,

819
00:43:54,183 --> 00:43:55,563
three o'clock in the afternoon

820
00:43:55,563 --> 00:43:57,462
before I go to pick
up the children.

821
00:43:58,774 --> 00:44:02,640
I could hear them arguing,
arguing about money,

822
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,437
arguing about gambling,
arguing about wasting money,

823
00:44:07,437 --> 00:44:09,405
arguing about the children.

824
00:44:10,613 --> 00:44:13,858
"I am going to prevent
you to see George."

825
00:44:13,858 --> 00:44:18,863
And that was the biggest
threat Lord Lucan can have

826
00:44:18,863 --> 00:44:22,798
because one thing is sure,
he love his children.

827
00:44:27,250 --> 00:44:31,807
Just outside Belgrave Street
is a little kind of park

828
00:44:31,807 --> 00:44:35,638
and I was going there
and I know he was passing

829
00:44:35,638 --> 00:44:39,504
and taking photos
of the children.

830
00:44:39,504 --> 00:44:41,195
- He did two things
with the nannies.

831
00:44:41,195 --> 00:44:42,749
He had them followed

832
00:44:42,749 --> 00:44:46,614
and he also did his best to
tape record their conversations.

833
00:44:46,614 --> 00:44:50,308
So he had a private
investigation company

834
00:44:50,308 --> 00:44:51,619
that was working for him.

835
00:44:51,619 --> 00:44:54,346
At times, they had two
different operatives

836
00:44:54,346 --> 00:44:56,935
who would follow the
nannies when the children

837
00:44:56,935 --> 00:44:59,006
left the house and
follow Lady Lucan.

838
00:45:00,801 --> 00:45:04,978
It was a concerted bit of
espionage that was going on.

839
00:45:04,978 --> 00:45:07,739
- The most startling
behaviour for me

840
00:45:07,739 --> 00:45:12,295
that I saw in this case was
the stalking that happened

841
00:45:12,295 --> 00:45:14,504
after they had separated

842
00:45:14,504 --> 00:45:16,610
and it probably wouldn't have
been called stalking back in

843
00:45:16,610 --> 00:45:20,510
the 70s, but what he was
doing was actually stalking.

844
00:45:20,510 --> 00:45:24,583
He was parking up
outside Veronica's house

845
00:45:24,583 --> 00:45:27,759
and he would sit there
for hour upon hour

846
00:45:27,759 --> 00:45:30,382
staring at the house.

847
00:45:30,382 --> 00:45:34,524
One of the nannies
reported that there were 22

848
00:45:34,524 --> 00:45:38,459
heavy breathing phone calls
to the house in just one hour,

849
00:45:39,806 --> 00:45:43,671
leaving either silent
messages or heavy breathing.

850
00:45:43,671 --> 00:45:46,364
[tense music]

851
00:45:47,710 --> 00:45:49,781
Now that is to
frighten somebody.

852
00:45:49,781 --> 00:45:51,818
This man is actually wanting

853
00:45:51,818 --> 00:45:54,890
to dominate Veronica's life.

854
00:45:54,890 --> 00:45:57,720
"I'm still here. I'm
not going anywhere."

855
00:45:59,101 --> 00:46:01,241
- He would tape a
call to Veronica

856
00:46:02,552 --> 00:46:05,693
and he would start off
talking reasonably to her,

857
00:46:05,693 --> 00:46:09,318
and then he would slowly provoke
her into losing her temper

858
00:46:09,318 --> 00:46:13,080
on the telephone and starting
to rant and rave at him.

859
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:14,944
And only when she was ranting

860
00:46:14,944 --> 00:46:18,465
and raving, he would then turn
on his tape recorder when he

861
00:46:18,465 --> 00:46:23,297
realised that nothing was gonna
work to get those kids back

862
00:46:23,297 --> 00:46:27,198
other than removing
Veronica from the scene,

863
00:46:27,198 --> 00:46:30,788
he abandoned all the sort
of the nanny shenanigans,

864
00:46:30,788 --> 00:46:34,412
if you like, and just
began concentrating on

865
00:46:34,412 --> 00:46:37,035
how do you kill your wife
and get away with it.

866
00:46:37,035 --> 00:46:39,969
[suspenseful music]

867
00:46:39,969 --> 00:46:43,904
- I think one marry
the other one for money

868
00:46:43,904 --> 00:46:46,838
and one marry the
other one for a title.

869
00:46:46,838 --> 00:46:51,360
Veronica was very, very attached
of her title of the lady.

870
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,432
I don't think he has
any sign of violence.

871
00:46:55,743 --> 00:47:00,162
Lot of sadness, lot of
hunger yes, but violence.

872
00:47:01,335 --> 00:47:03,337
This wasn't a term
that we used for him.

873
00:47:03,337 --> 00:47:04,235
No.

874
00:47:06,271 --> 00:47:08,032
And one thing is sure,

875
00:47:08,032 --> 00:47:11,276
when he was telling hello to
me, he was not telling hello,

876
00:47:11,276 --> 00:47:13,520
like if I was a dog,
he was looking at me.

877
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,143
He was looking and
saying, good afternoon.

878
00:47:16,143 --> 00:47:18,249
Thank you for looking
after the children.

879
00:47:19,422 --> 00:47:22,149
- Any behavioural issues
that Veronica displayed.

880
00:47:22,149 --> 00:47:24,876
The police theory was that
they were Lucan's fault.

881
00:47:24,876 --> 00:47:29,674
They said that Lord Lucan had
been trying to send her mad

882
00:47:29,674 --> 00:47:31,572
or convince her
that she was mad.

883
00:47:31,572 --> 00:47:35,024
She said to them, "He used to
take me off to psychiatrists."

884
00:47:35,024 --> 00:47:36,992
There was pretty strong evidence

885
00:47:36,992 --> 00:47:39,063
that the children
shouldn't be with her.

886
00:47:42,514 --> 00:47:45,655
He had concerns about
her as early as 1967

887
00:47:45,655 --> 00:47:48,624
and he didn't even leave
the marriage until 1973.

888
00:47:48,624 --> 00:47:51,696
So that means he was
playing a very long game,

889
00:47:51,696 --> 00:47:54,768
which frankly he
wasn't capable of.

890
00:47:54,768 --> 00:47:56,218
And it's ridiculous.

891
00:47:56,218 --> 00:47:59,152
He just wasn't that imaginative.

892
00:47:59,152 --> 00:48:01,809
He just wasn't.

893
00:48:01,809 --> 00:48:05,986
- There are conflicting
descriptions of what Lord Lucan

894
00:48:05,986 --> 00:48:07,643
was like as a person.

895
00:48:07,643 --> 00:48:10,818
Some people describe
him as very charming

896
00:48:10,818 --> 00:48:15,340
and very charismatic
and friendly and nice.

897
00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:19,448
Other people say that that
mask slipped quite a lot.

898
00:48:21,139 --> 00:48:25,316
One of the things that we know
about controlling people is

899
00:48:25,316 --> 00:48:27,939
that they are very,
very manipulative.

900
00:48:27,939 --> 00:48:31,874
So they will learn as
they go through life.

901
00:48:31,874 --> 00:48:36,154
What works, what gives
me the most control?

902
00:48:36,154 --> 00:48:39,847
Most of this charm would've
been used on people

903
00:48:39,847 --> 00:48:41,470
who could be useful to him.

904
00:48:42,954 --> 00:48:45,439
- His motivations to get rid

905
00:48:45,439 --> 00:48:48,235
of Veronica were
very, very strong.

906
00:48:50,203 --> 00:48:54,276
Veronica was, in his
eyes, ruining his life.

907
00:48:54,276 --> 00:48:58,694
And it wasn't only that she
had won custody of the children

908
00:48:58,694 --> 00:49:02,077
in the most embarrassing
way possible for him.

909
00:49:02,077 --> 00:49:07,082
It was also that she was
living in the Lucan Trust's

910
00:49:08,566 --> 00:49:11,776
Belgravia mansion, while Lucan
was living around the corner

911
00:49:11,776 --> 00:49:13,812
in a little two bed flat

912
00:49:13,812 --> 00:49:18,679
and she was spending money at
Harrod's like it was water.

913
00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:22,131
No court was going to let
him sell their family home

914
00:49:22,131 --> 00:49:24,099
so he couldn't access
any of the money

915
00:49:24,099 --> 00:49:25,928
that he had locked up there.

916
00:49:25,928 --> 00:49:27,585
He was like many aristocrats.

917
00:49:27,585 --> 00:49:30,588
He was asset rich and cash poor.

918
00:49:32,900 --> 00:49:36,318
Divorcing her, which he almost
certainly would've wanted

919
00:49:36,318 --> 00:49:39,321
to do, would possibly
have made the situation

920
00:49:39,321 --> 00:49:40,978
even worse for him.

921
00:49:45,913 --> 00:49:48,571
- I think it was about the
end of September, I was told

922
00:49:48,571 --> 00:49:52,679
by the lady from the Au Pair
agency I wasn't needed anymore

923
00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:55,647
and they needed somebody

924
00:49:55,647 --> 00:49:57,546
English to replace me.

925
00:49:57,546 --> 00:49:58,443
I have to go.

926
00:49:59,582 --> 00:50:02,033
And then I did my,
they were at school.

927
00:50:02,033 --> 00:50:03,931
I put my thing and I went.

928
00:50:05,347 --> 00:50:09,178
- Sandra was with an
agency in Belgravia

929
00:50:09,178 --> 00:50:14,183
and her next job was at
46 Lower Belgrave Street.

930
00:50:15,978 --> 00:50:18,567
- I know almost
nothing about Sandra.

931
00:50:18,567 --> 00:50:22,053
I met Sandra once because
I forgot some books

932
00:50:22,053 --> 00:50:25,263
and I rung up to
come to get them

933
00:50:25,263 --> 00:50:27,541
and she opened the door.

934
00:50:27,541 --> 00:50:28,956
She was not very big.

935
00:50:28,956 --> 00:50:30,993
She looked like a pleasant lady.

936
00:50:30,993 --> 00:50:33,720
I don't think she
say a word to me.

937
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:37,068
She hold the book and I
say, "Thank you very much."

938
00:50:37,068 --> 00:50:39,691
She closed the
door. Nothing else.

939
00:50:39,691 --> 00:50:40,692
No contact.

940
00:50:41,969 --> 00:50:45,387
I would've loved to ask
how the children, no,

941
00:50:45,387 --> 00:50:47,596
they were at school, the babies.

942
00:50:49,667 --> 00:50:53,153
[gentle piano music]

943
00:50:53,153 --> 00:50:56,984
- It was very hard to get a
nanny, a good nanny in London

944
00:50:56,984 --> 00:50:59,366
for a rate that wasn't
too over the top

945
00:50:59,366 --> 00:51:02,749
because we know Lucan had
money issues and therefore

946
00:51:02,749 --> 00:51:05,407
you get this extraordinary
sort of revolving door

947
00:51:05,407 --> 00:51:07,305
of carers and au pairs

948
00:51:07,305 --> 00:51:12,069
and nannies that arrive
in the family house,

949
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:15,002
some of whom leave, some
of whom aren't appropriate,

950
00:51:15,002 --> 00:51:16,797
some of whom don't
cut the mustard,

951
00:51:16,797 --> 00:51:18,523
some of whom Veronica
doesn't get on with,

952
00:51:18,523 --> 00:51:20,215
some of whom are
only temporary anyway

953
00:51:20,215 --> 00:51:23,356
until the agency can
get the right nanny.

954
00:51:23,356 --> 00:51:25,289
We know Francis, the older
girl didn't really get on

955
00:51:25,289 --> 00:51:27,256
with the nannies and
can you blame her?

956
00:51:27,256 --> 00:51:29,396
She had a different one
every week virtually.

957
00:51:29,396 --> 00:51:32,468
[soft music]

958
00:51:33,711 --> 00:51:36,886
- I became a penthouse
pet and a Bunny Girls,

959
00:51:36,886 --> 00:51:38,371
and I love it.

960
00:51:38,371 --> 00:51:40,269
I love the money I was making.

961
00:51:40,269 --> 00:51:42,547
It was just glamorous.

962
00:51:46,033 --> 00:51:48,588
I cannot remember
the exact date,

963
00:51:48,588 --> 00:51:52,143
but I know that I left weeks

964
00:51:52,143 --> 00:51:54,904
before everything happened.

965
00:51:56,458 --> 00:52:00,220
My boss said to me, "Have
you read the last article?"

966
00:52:00,220 --> 00:52:01,566
And I said, "No."

967
00:52:01,566 --> 00:52:03,603
He said, "You worked with
Lord Lucan, didn't you?"

968
00:52:03,603 --> 00:52:05,605
And he gave me the
paper and I read it.

969
00:52:09,609 --> 00:52:12,715
And I just walk out and
I walk in the street

970
00:52:12,715 --> 00:52:15,787
and I said, "It
could have been me."

971
00:52:16,788 --> 00:52:19,170
And then I
straightaway said, "No,

972
00:52:19,170 --> 00:52:22,346
"that would not have
happened if I did stay."

973
00:52:22,346 --> 00:52:25,625
And from this minute,
the guilt came.

974
00:52:25,625 --> 00:52:29,249
First of all, I thought it
was Veronica was killed,

975
00:52:29,249 --> 00:52:31,424
and that really shocked me.

976
00:52:31,424 --> 00:52:35,255
Then when I saw it was a
mother of a young baby,

977
00:52:35,255 --> 00:52:37,671
a young child, I felt guilty.

978
00:52:37,671 --> 00:52:40,364
And this guilt is
still here now,

979
00:52:40,364 --> 00:52:43,298
50 years on this guilt is here.

980
00:52:46,024 --> 00:52:47,371
It's all right.

981
00:52:47,371 --> 00:52:49,131
I have to cope, I live with it.

982
00:52:50,926 --> 00:52:54,171
[music box plays]

983
00:52:57,104 --> 00:52:59,314
- I mean, when you think
of the chain of events

984
00:52:59,314 --> 00:53:01,419
and how they're
affecting people's lives,

985
00:53:01,419 --> 00:53:03,904
the idea that a judge
saying there has

986
00:53:03,904 --> 00:53:06,459
to be a nanny in
situ all the time,

987
00:53:06,459 --> 00:53:09,945
and Sandra happily, innocently

988
00:53:09,945 --> 00:53:12,085
thinking, oh, what a great job.

989
00:53:12,085 --> 00:53:13,224
It's awful really.

990
00:53:14,501 --> 00:53:17,401
- When the police ask me
question, I said to them,

991
00:53:17,401 --> 00:53:18,850
"I feel guilty.

992
00:53:18,850 --> 00:53:22,095
"No way they would
ever murdered me."

993
00:53:22,095 --> 00:53:24,304
I never heard from
the children again.

994
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:30,621
My guilt was so
great at the time.

995
00:53:32,726 --> 00:53:36,834
I felt that the children could
have been killed as well.

996
00:53:40,044 --> 00:53:44,221
[gentle piano music]

997
00:53:44,221 --> 00:53:45,981
- Sandra appeared happy
at her place of work,

998
00:53:45,981 --> 00:53:47,603
and she told her mother that.

999
00:53:47,603 --> 00:53:49,881
She'd ring her
mother every evening.

1000
00:53:49,881 --> 00:53:53,264
She would ring her boyfriend
and say how happy she was.

1001
00:53:53,264 --> 00:53:54,990
They probably felt very secure

1002
00:53:54,990 --> 00:53:58,235
and safe within the environment
at that address at the time.

1003
00:53:58,235 --> 00:54:01,134
Unfortunately, that was to
then to become a significant

1004
00:54:01,134 --> 00:54:02,687
and horrendous murder scene.

1005
00:54:02,687 --> 00:54:05,966
Less than half an hour after
they were watching a television

1006
00:54:05,966 --> 00:54:08,762
and she'd gone downstairs,
Sandra would've been killed.

1007
00:54:11,144 --> 00:54:14,527
- On the night it
happened with Lady Lucan

1008
00:54:14,527 --> 00:54:16,563
taken off to hospital,
desperately injured.

1009
00:54:16,563 --> 00:54:19,117
She had massive
wounds to her scalp.

1010
00:54:20,291 --> 00:54:22,845
Sandra Rivett dead
in the basement.

1011
00:54:22,845 --> 00:54:24,985
The children were completely
alone in the house

1012
00:54:24,985 --> 00:54:28,472
with this horrible scene
happening downstairs.

1013
00:54:28,472 --> 00:54:32,959
Lucan himself tried to
get some help for them.

1014
00:54:32,959 --> 00:54:35,099
He telephoned his mother

1015
00:54:35,099 --> 00:54:38,240
and said, could you
go to the house?

1016
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:41,623
I believe that the only
person in the room with

1017
00:54:41,623 --> 00:54:46,524
the Dowager Countess of
Lucan was a police woman.

1018
00:54:46,524 --> 00:54:50,632
The police woman realised
Lucan was on the phone

1019
00:54:50,632 --> 00:54:53,359
and then just did nothing,
just sat there and listened.

1020
00:54:54,532 --> 00:54:57,570
- Lord Lucans mother
asked Lord Lucan whether

1021
00:54:57,570 --> 00:55:00,711
or not he wanted to
speak to the officer.

1022
00:55:00,711 --> 00:55:04,439
And his response was, "No,
tell the officer I will speak

1023
00:55:04,439 --> 00:55:05,785
"to her tomorrow."

1024
00:55:05,785 --> 00:55:08,719
And for me, that was where part

1025
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,239
of the investigation was
going to be hindered.

1026
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,932
You can't have your possible
suspect on the opposite end

1027
00:55:14,932 --> 00:55:17,659
of the phone who says,
"I'll ring you tomorrow."

1028
00:55:17,659 --> 00:55:20,731
Your natural instinct would
be, "Give me that phone.

1029
00:55:20,731 --> 00:55:23,630
"Hello, mate, you need
to wind your neck in

1030
00:55:23,630 --> 00:55:25,183
"and we need to talk."

1031
00:55:25,183 --> 00:55:26,909
That's just policing.

1032
00:55:26,909 --> 00:55:28,739
I don't think of any police
officer who would go,

1033
00:55:28,739 --> 00:55:30,706
"Yeah, I agree with that."

1034
00:55:30,706 --> 00:55:33,709
I don't understand why the
officer didn't do it, I'm sorry.

1035
00:55:35,849 --> 00:55:40,060
- I think the details
of how Sandra died

1036
00:55:40,060 --> 00:55:43,167
and the details of how
Lady Lucan was hurt

1037
00:55:43,167 --> 00:55:45,859
didn't really come out
in any great detail

1038
00:55:45,859 --> 00:55:48,310
until the inquest
into Sandra's death,

1039
00:55:48,310 --> 00:55:51,037
which was some
considerable time later.

1040
00:55:52,314 --> 00:55:54,696
The whole attention
of the police

1041
00:55:54,696 --> 00:55:56,249
and the press was supposed

1042
00:55:56,249 --> 00:55:59,528
to be the worldwide
hunt for Lord Lucan.

1043
00:55:59,528 --> 00:56:00,909
- I wish to interview him

1044
00:56:00,909 --> 00:56:03,463
and I'd like to interview
him as soon as possible.

1045
00:56:03,463 --> 00:56:06,535
And if any person is helping him

1046
00:56:06,535 --> 00:56:08,848
or assisting him,
we'd like them to

1047
00:56:08,848 --> 00:56:10,815
or have any knowledge
of his whereabouts.

1048
00:56:10,815 --> 00:56:12,369
We'd like them to let us know.

1049
00:56:13,818 --> 00:56:15,441
- After Lady Lucan ran off

1050
00:56:15,441 --> 00:56:18,582
to the pub screaming
and shouting,

1051
00:56:19,755 --> 00:56:22,689
and Lucan realised that
he had to get away.

1052
00:56:22,689 --> 00:56:26,072
He into his car, the car
that he had hoped to carry,

1053
00:56:26,072 --> 00:56:30,421
Lady Lucan's body away
in, and he fled the scene.

1054
00:56:30,421 --> 00:56:33,528
And the only indication of

1055
00:56:33,528 --> 00:56:38,429
what he did then comes from
the late Susan Maxwell Scott,

1056
00:56:38,429 --> 00:56:41,087
who days later reported

1057
00:56:41,087 --> 00:56:43,814
that he had turned
up at her house on

1058
00:56:43,814 --> 00:56:45,505
the night of the killing.

1059
00:56:45,505 --> 00:56:46,782
- He looked a bit dishevelled,

1060
00:56:46,782 --> 00:56:48,508
may have had a bit
of blood on him.

1061
00:56:48,508 --> 00:56:51,097
He asked if he could
get a pen and paper,

1062
00:56:51,097 --> 00:56:53,064
and he wanted to write
a couple of letters.

1063
00:56:53,064 --> 00:56:54,065
He then left.

1064
00:56:55,273 --> 00:56:57,931
- One of the letters,
went to Bill Shand Kydd,

1065
00:56:57,931 --> 00:56:59,588
his brother-in-law.

1066
00:56:59,588 --> 00:57:02,660
Bill was a very, very
close friend of his.

1067
00:57:02,660 --> 00:57:05,491
- No, I obviously can't divulge
the contents of the letter.

1068
00:57:05,491 --> 00:57:10,357
All I can say is that
it confirmed the story,

1069
00:57:10,357 --> 00:57:12,463
which he had told his mother

1070
00:57:12,463 --> 00:57:13,982
that there had been an
intruder in the house.

1071
00:57:13,982 --> 00:57:16,502
Apart from that, I can't
divulge any of the contents.

1072
00:57:16,502 --> 00:57:18,952
- I think he used the
phrase, it's been a night

1073
00:57:18,952 --> 00:57:21,645
of unbelievable coincidences.

1074
00:57:21,645 --> 00:57:26,684
And he set the scene
for what is his version,

1075
00:57:27,823 --> 00:57:29,342
his alibi for what
happened that night,

1076
00:57:29,342 --> 00:57:33,035
or rather his defence for
what happened that night.

1077
00:57:33,035 --> 00:57:34,554
- And he saw the intruder?
- Yes.

1078
00:57:34,554 --> 00:57:35,659
He disturbed the intruder.

1079
00:57:35,659 --> 00:57:36,936
- What sort of a man was he?

1080
00:57:36,936 --> 00:57:39,766
- Generous man. A
very gentle man.

1081
00:57:40,733 --> 00:57:41,872
Very much a family man.

1082
00:57:41,872 --> 00:57:44,564
He's really devoted
to his children.

1083
00:57:44,564 --> 00:57:47,153
They are the most important
thing in his life.

1084
00:57:49,742 --> 00:57:52,814
- When I interrupted the
fight at Lower Belgrave Street

1085
00:57:52,814 --> 00:57:57,715
and the man left, Veronica
accused me of having hired him,

1086
00:57:57,715 --> 00:58:00,580
I took her upstairs and
sent Francis up to bed

1087
00:58:00,580 --> 00:58:02,824
and tried to clean her up.

1088
00:58:02,824 --> 00:58:05,033
She laid Doggo for a bit,

1089
00:58:05,033 --> 00:58:08,001
and when I was in the
bathroom, left the house.

1090
00:58:09,313 --> 00:58:12,454
The circumstantial evidence
against me is strong in

1091
00:58:12,454 --> 00:58:15,526
that V will say it
was all my doing.

1092
00:58:15,526 --> 00:58:17,424
I will also lie Doggo for a bit,

1093
00:58:17,424 --> 00:58:20,531
but I'm also concerned
for the children.

1094
00:58:20,531 --> 00:58:23,569
If you can manage it, I
want them to live with you.

1095
00:58:24,915 --> 00:58:27,193
- To use the term, the
circumstantial evidence against

1096
00:58:27,193 --> 00:58:28,401
me is strong.

1097
00:58:28,401 --> 00:58:29,954
It doesn't sit right with me.

1098
00:58:29,954 --> 00:58:33,337
It doesn't feel like the thing
a normal person would say.

1099
00:58:33,337 --> 00:58:36,236
- He said to Bill Shand Kydd
that he was going to run away

1100
00:58:36,236 --> 00:58:38,273
and lie doggo for a while.

1101
00:58:38,273 --> 00:58:40,827
That phrase has
haunted me for 50 years

1102
00:58:40,827 --> 00:58:44,659
because lying doggo for a
while is not I'm gonna go

1103
00:58:44,659 --> 00:58:46,143
and kill myself.

1104
00:58:46,143 --> 00:58:47,627
It's I'm gonna go

1105
00:58:47,627 --> 00:58:50,388
and hide under the bed clothes
until somebody finds me.

1106
00:58:50,388 --> 00:58:52,529
And it's just, he's
been hiding very well

1107
00:58:53,322 --> 00:58:54,600
for five decades.

1108
00:58:59,915 --> 00:59:03,022
- On the 9th of November,
police had received information

1109
00:59:03,022 --> 00:59:06,543
that the Ford Corsair, that
Michael Stoop had loaned

1110
00:59:06,543 --> 00:59:09,166
to Lord Lucan had been
found in Newhaven.

1111
00:59:10,616 --> 00:59:13,308
The individuals who came across
the vehicle said it had been

1112
00:59:13,308 --> 00:59:16,242
parked between five
and 8:00 AM that day.

1113
00:59:16,242 --> 00:59:19,486
The vehicle was subsequently
found by the officers locked,

1114
00:59:19,486 --> 00:59:21,834
which would imply
that whoever was in it

1115
00:59:21,834 --> 00:59:25,216
may have intended to
come back to the vehicle.

1116
00:59:25,216 --> 00:59:27,840
- The natural
suggestion would be

1117
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,429
that he then got on the
Newhaven to Dieppe Ferry

1118
00:59:31,429 --> 00:59:33,224
and escaped to France.

1119
00:59:33,224 --> 00:59:34,778
But the reality is

1120
00:59:34,778 --> 00:59:38,126
that the police questioned
just every passenger they could

1121
00:59:38,126 --> 00:59:43,165
find who had made that crossing
on the day after the murder.

1122
00:59:44,442 --> 00:59:46,755
And they could find nobody
among the passengers

1123
00:59:46,755 --> 00:59:49,309
or crew who saw

1124
00:59:49,309 --> 00:59:53,831
or remembered a six foot
tall former guards officer

1125
00:59:53,831 --> 00:59:55,868
with a very big bushy moustache

1126
00:59:55,868 --> 00:59:59,975
and talking in a very
plummy, aristocratic accent.

1127
00:59:59,975 --> 01:00:02,909
He wasn't somebody you
could mistake in a crowd.

1128
01:00:03,841 --> 01:00:05,809
I think the police believed

1129
01:00:05,809 --> 01:00:09,329
that the car was left at
Newhaven as a red herring.

1130
01:00:09,329 --> 01:00:13,023
Nobody would know apart
from Susan Maxwell Scott.

1131
01:00:13,023 --> 01:00:18,062
And and her evidence was
just never forthcoming.

1132
01:00:19,374 --> 01:00:21,825
- I would think that the
probability is that he is alive,

1133
01:00:22,998 --> 01:00:26,415
but I have no knowledge,
no foundation for that.

1134
01:00:26,415 --> 01:00:28,728
It's just a feeling.
I think he's alive.

1135
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,974
- I don't think there's
anybody, certainly in London

1136
01:00:32,974 --> 01:00:34,527
that didn't know
about this case.

1137
01:00:34,527 --> 01:00:38,013
It would've been front page,
back page news, everything.

1138
01:00:38,013 --> 01:00:40,291
But that sometimes
can work against you

1139
01:00:40,291 --> 01:00:42,466
because you're gonna get lots

1140
01:00:42,466 --> 01:00:44,123
of sightings coming
from all over the world.

1141
01:00:44,123 --> 01:00:45,745
They were coming from Australia,

1142
01:00:45,745 --> 01:00:48,679
they were coming from
Europe, certainly in the UK.

1143
01:00:48,679 --> 01:00:51,578
So that would've made
it even more difficult.

1144
01:00:51,578 --> 01:00:54,512
- In the days and
weeks after the murder,

1145
01:00:54,512 --> 01:00:57,239
the media generally
were full of stories

1146
01:00:57,239 --> 01:01:00,760
of this worldwide hunt for
the missing Lord Lucan,

1147
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,520
it was a great headline.

1148
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,144
The truth of the matter
is that Roy Ranson,

1149
01:01:05,144 --> 01:01:07,767
the detective in
charge of the case,

1150
01:01:07,767 --> 01:01:10,390
never went on a worldwide hunt

1151
01:01:10,390 --> 01:01:15,430
because he had no evidence
of where Lucan might be.

1152
01:01:16,742 --> 01:01:18,571
- 14 years ago when I
was in the Met, I believe

1153
01:01:18,571 --> 01:01:22,161
that they would've identified
where Lord Lucan was

1154
01:01:22,161 --> 01:01:24,853
and he would've been
arrested within days

1155
01:01:24,853 --> 01:01:26,752
or even weeks at the maximum

1156
01:01:26,752 --> 01:01:29,755
because there's so much
stuff now that we have to do

1157
01:01:29,755 --> 01:01:32,136
that the moment you have
your phone in your pocket,

1158
01:01:32,136 --> 01:01:33,690
it's pinging away on

1159
01:01:33,690 --> 01:01:35,899
where you are from the moment
he left the scene from the

1160
01:01:35,899 --> 01:01:38,487
moment he ended up
out in Newhaven,

1161
01:01:38,487 --> 01:01:40,697
all that information
would be downloaded

1162
01:01:40,697 --> 01:01:43,458
and would have all that
information in a matter

1163
01:01:43,458 --> 01:01:45,771
of 72 hours max.

1164
01:01:45,771 --> 01:01:47,427
So Roy Ranson

1165
01:01:47,427 --> 01:01:51,397
and his team were
hamstrung by the lack

1166
01:01:51,397 --> 01:01:52,709
of technology

1167
01:01:52,709 --> 01:01:54,089
and all of those things

1168
01:01:54,089 --> 01:01:57,575
that an SIO now has
to bring to bear.

1169
01:01:57,575 --> 01:01:59,716
If you're lucky in
this day and age,

1170
01:01:59,716 --> 01:02:02,546
you could have solved
that within 72 hours.

1171
01:02:02,546 --> 01:02:04,893
And if you're not, maybe
in a couple of weeks.

1172
01:02:06,377 --> 01:02:09,518
[tense music]

1173
01:02:09,518 --> 01:02:11,658
- The most plausible
thing I think,

1174
01:02:11,658 --> 01:02:16,698
and supported by the
evidence, is that Lord Lucan

1175
01:02:17,423 --> 01:02:21,496
was absolutely enraged

1176
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:27,191
that he had no
control over Veronica.

1177
01:02:27,191 --> 01:02:29,884
He wanted custody of
his children, basically.

1178
01:02:29,884 --> 01:02:32,852
He wanted to win
and he was losing.

1179
01:02:33,957 --> 01:02:35,924
He went through an
escalation period.

1180
01:02:35,924 --> 01:02:38,789
He started to fantasise
about how he was gonna win.

1181
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:41,343
He was gonna win by killing her.

1182
01:02:41,343 --> 01:02:42,759
He planned to kill her.

1183
01:02:42,759 --> 01:02:44,691
He went round there
to execute the plan.

1184
01:02:44,691 --> 01:02:46,659
He killed the wrong woman.

1185
01:02:46,659 --> 01:02:51,698
A typical intimate partner
homicide that went wrong.

1186
01:02:54,046 --> 01:02:58,291
- I think the murder
was very premeditated.

1187
01:02:58,291 --> 01:03:01,191
There were a number
of indications that
it was premeditated.

1188
01:03:03,676 --> 01:03:05,574
The week before it happened,

1189
01:03:05,574 --> 01:03:09,786
he had custody of the children
for a weekend or an evening,

1190
01:03:09,786 --> 01:03:13,720
and he talked to them about
their new nanny, Sandra,

1191
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,068
and they told him
all about Sandra

1192
01:03:16,068 --> 01:03:18,380
and what a nice girl she was.

1193
01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:21,901
So he said, "I suppose your
nanny has a boyfriend?"

1194
01:03:21,901 --> 01:03:26,319
And the oldest, Lucan girl
said, "She's got a boyfriend."

1195
01:03:26,319 --> 01:03:27,700
and giggled.

1196
01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:31,738
And I think said, "We
saw her kissing him."

1197
01:03:31,738 --> 01:03:35,846
and Lucan then said, "Does the
boyfriend take Sandra out?"

1198
01:03:35,846 --> 01:03:37,779
And the children said, "Oh yes,

1199
01:03:37,779 --> 01:03:40,057
"she goes out every
Thursday night

1200
01:03:40,057 --> 01:03:42,025
"because that's her day off."

1201
01:03:42,025 --> 01:03:45,235
It was the very next
Thursday night that Lucan

1202
01:03:45,235 --> 01:03:48,307
turned up in the house
with his intent to kill.

1203
01:03:48,307 --> 01:03:51,241
So it was certainly premeditated
to the point where he knew

1204
01:03:51,241 --> 01:03:53,381
that the nanny would
be out of the house

1205
01:03:53,381 --> 01:03:55,728
and Lady Lucan would be alone

1206
01:03:55,728 --> 01:03:59,111
and he was most likely to
be able to kill his wife.

1207
01:04:00,733 --> 01:04:02,010
- It was common knowledge

1208
01:04:02,010 --> 01:04:05,358
that Sandra normally had
the Thursday night off.

1209
01:04:05,358 --> 01:04:07,015
But on this
occasion, she decided

1210
01:04:07,015 --> 01:04:09,569
that she wanted to change it.

1211
01:04:09,569 --> 01:04:13,297
We know before the attack
she'd spoken to her boyfriend,

1212
01:04:13,297 --> 01:04:15,610
they talked about
meeting up the next day.

1213
01:04:20,857 --> 01:04:23,894
[dramatic music]

1214
01:04:23,894 --> 01:04:26,517
- The murder happened
on the evening

1215
01:04:26,517 --> 01:04:29,451
of the 7th of November, 1974.

1216
01:04:29,451 --> 01:04:34,491
As ever with this, there
are very few hard facts.

1217
01:04:35,664 --> 01:04:37,735
We don't even know
what time it happened

1218
01:04:37,735 --> 01:04:40,014
because there are
conflicting reports.

1219
01:04:41,049 --> 01:04:43,603
While Veronica,
two of her children

1220
01:04:43,603 --> 01:04:47,780
and Sandra were all upstairs
in the main bedroom,

1221
01:04:47,780 --> 01:04:50,334
Veronica's bedroom, they
were all on the bed together

1222
01:04:50,334 --> 01:04:53,027
watching the $6 million man.

1223
01:04:53,027 --> 01:04:57,410
And on the floor above was
Francis, the elder child

1224
01:04:57,410 --> 01:04:59,999
who was watching
top of the pops.

1225
01:04:59,999 --> 01:05:04,245
At some point between

1226
01:05:04,245 --> 01:05:06,903
25 to nine and five to nine,

1227
01:05:06,903 --> 01:05:11,355
Sandra Rivett went down into
the basement to make tea.

1228
01:05:12,529 --> 01:05:15,118
There was a light
bulb had been removed,

1229
01:05:15,118 --> 01:05:17,327
so she was in the dark.

1230
01:05:17,327 --> 01:05:19,087
She went down those stairs

1231
01:05:19,087 --> 01:05:22,159
and at the bottom of
the stairs was attacked.

1232
01:05:22,159 --> 01:05:25,611
[dramatic music crescendos]

1233
01:05:25,611 --> 01:05:28,476
- I think maybe after the
first two or three blows.

1234
01:05:28,476 --> 01:05:29,615
And she may have screamed.

1235
01:05:29,615 --> 01:05:30,892
He may have thought
this is not her,

1236
01:05:30,892 --> 01:05:32,238
but he could not
have stopped then.

1237
01:05:32,238 --> 01:05:35,828
He couldn't say, "Oh,
sorry, wrong person."

1238
01:05:35,828 --> 01:05:37,347
So he had to kill her.

1239
01:05:39,418 --> 01:05:42,939
- Sandra collapses in a
pool of blood and Lord Lucan

1240
01:05:42,939 --> 01:05:44,561
scoops up the body

1241
01:05:44,561 --> 01:05:48,254
and puts it into the big sack
that he's come prepared with.

1242
01:05:48,254 --> 01:05:51,326
Now, it is entirely possible

1243
01:05:51,326 --> 01:05:53,535
that he doesn't know
he's killed Sandra.

1244
01:05:53,535 --> 01:05:55,537
He thinks he's
killed Lady Lucan.

1245
01:05:56,953 --> 01:05:59,921
And so he goes off to
wash off the blood,

1246
01:05:59,921 --> 01:06:02,096
leaving the body in the sack.

1247
01:06:02,096 --> 01:06:05,582
All he can see of the body
is her rocked up skirt

1248
01:06:05,582 --> 01:06:08,343
and underwear, which could
well have been his wife's.

1249
01:06:08,343 --> 01:06:09,896
So he goes upstairs to

1250
01:06:09,896 --> 01:06:12,658
where there is a light in
the ground floor, cloak room,

1251
01:06:12,658 --> 01:06:15,281
and that's where he starts
to wash the blood off.

1252
01:06:15,281 --> 01:06:18,457
And it's at that point that
he hears a noise outside

1253
01:06:18,457 --> 01:06:21,460
and he throws open the
door, and there's his wife.

1254
01:06:21,460 --> 01:06:23,876
The woman who he
firmly believed at

1255
01:06:23,876 --> 01:06:27,017
that stage was downstairs
dead in a sack.

1256
01:06:27,017 --> 01:06:30,434
[water Trickling]
[tense music]

1257
01:06:31,297 --> 01:06:33,437
He's totally shocked by this.

1258
01:06:33,437 --> 01:06:35,681
And he attacks Lady
Lucan viciously.

1259
01:06:35,681 --> 01:06:38,856
I mean, he's got this
lead pipe in his hand

1260
01:06:38,856 --> 01:06:41,825
and he's still swinging
his pipe at her.

1261
01:06:41,825 --> 01:06:44,379
He hits her across the
head several times.

1262
01:06:44,379 --> 01:06:46,864
She wouldn't have had
the slightest chance

1263
01:06:46,864 --> 01:06:49,798
or knowledge of what
was happening to her.

1264
01:06:49,798 --> 01:06:52,836
- It is so hard to know
what was actually going

1265
01:06:52,836 --> 01:06:54,458
through his head at that point.

1266
01:06:54,458 --> 01:06:59,498
But what I would theorise
is that he sounded

1267
01:07:00,050 --> 01:07:01,638
blood hot angry.

1268
01:07:01,638 --> 01:07:03,502
And after that, there
might have been a moment

1269
01:07:03,502 --> 01:07:07,437
where he went, "Oh
God, what have I done?"

1270
01:07:07,437 --> 01:07:09,853
- Upstairs, he's in
a narrow corridor.

1271
01:07:09,853 --> 01:07:11,786
He's facing Lady Lucan.

1272
01:07:11,786 --> 01:07:14,030
And although he hits
her without enough force

1273
01:07:14,030 --> 01:07:18,931
to knock her out, she's a
wiry, feisty young woman.

1274
01:07:18,931 --> 01:07:21,244
And she's fighting for her life.

1275
01:07:21,244 --> 01:07:24,350
She scratches him, they're
wrestling together.

1276
01:07:24,350 --> 01:07:27,112
And in the end, she reaches down

1277
01:07:27,112 --> 01:07:30,770
and she grabs hold of his
testicles and squeezes

1278
01:07:30,770 --> 01:07:33,187
and twists as hard as she can.

1279
01:07:33,187 --> 01:07:36,914
And Lucan collapses
to the floor with her.

1280
01:07:36,914 --> 01:07:39,365
They slide down
the walls together.

1281
01:07:39,365 --> 01:07:42,127
And Lady Lucan is so clever.

1282
01:07:42,127 --> 01:07:44,646
She says, "What are
you doing, John?

1283
01:07:44,646 --> 01:07:47,132
"What on earth are you doing?"

1284
01:07:47,132 --> 01:07:50,100
And he mumbles incoherently.

1285
01:07:50,100 --> 01:07:52,171
And she says, "Where's Sandra?

1286
01:07:53,241 --> 01:07:54,760
"Where's my nanny?"

1287
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,487
And he says, "I think I've
killed, I've killed your nanny."

1288
01:08:02,008 --> 01:08:04,390
- They went upstairs
to the bedroom

1289
01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:08,532
and he rang out a towel
to clean her up a bit.

1290
01:08:08,532 --> 01:08:12,571
We know he was there because
Francis, his daughter, saw him.

1291
01:08:12,571 --> 01:08:14,538
But when he was in the bathroom

1292
01:08:14,538 --> 01:08:16,540
cleaning up the
towel and everything,

1293
01:08:16,540 --> 01:08:19,819
Veronica ran down the
stairs, ran out the house,

1294
01:08:19,819 --> 01:08:22,270
ran up the street to the
The Plumber's Arms pub,

1295
01:08:22,270 --> 01:08:23,927
and burst into the bar.

1296
01:08:23,927 --> 01:08:26,032
This was 10 to 10

1297
01:08:27,379 --> 01:08:30,485
and said, "Help, help my
husband's murdered my nanny."

1298
01:08:30,485 --> 01:08:33,350
And from that point, it
became a police matter.

1299
01:08:33,350 --> 01:08:34,800
They descended on the house.

1300
01:08:37,009 --> 01:08:39,632
[sombre music]

1301
01:08:47,364 --> 01:08:49,987
- Lady Lucan
attended the inquest,

1302
01:08:49,987 --> 01:08:54,544
and her role was to
give an account of

1303
01:08:54,544 --> 01:08:58,099
what happened to her
in terms of the attack,

1304
01:08:58,099 --> 01:09:00,929
which resulted in her
receiving those injuries.

1305
01:09:00,929 --> 01:09:03,829
The problem in this case
is that at the time,

1306
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:05,969
the law did not allow her

1307
01:09:05,969 --> 01:09:10,387
to talk about her husband's
attack on Sandra Rivett

1308
01:09:10,387 --> 01:09:13,183
because at that time
a spouse couldn't give

1309
01:09:13,183 --> 01:09:14,978
evidence against the other.

1310
01:09:14,978 --> 01:09:17,049
So all that Lady
Lucan could talk about

1311
01:09:17,049 --> 01:09:18,326
was the attack on her.

1312
01:09:18,326 --> 01:09:21,743
She couldn't, in any
way, give evidence about

1313
01:09:21,743 --> 01:09:25,126
what Lord Lucan said when
she managed to calm him down

1314
01:09:25,126 --> 01:09:28,647
and he actually confessed
that he had killed Sandra.

1315
01:09:28,647 --> 01:09:30,166
She could not give
that evidence.

1316
01:09:30,166 --> 01:09:32,927
But that law has
subsequently changed

1317
01:09:32,927 --> 01:09:36,793
where a spouse can give evidence
against the other spouse in

1318
01:09:36,793 --> 01:09:38,415
relation to any offence

1319
01:09:38,415 --> 01:09:40,762
that they may have
committed against them.

1320
01:09:40,762 --> 01:09:44,939
- At the inquest,
which was June, 1975,

1321
01:09:44,939 --> 01:09:48,977
Sandra became more striking
to my mind, really,

1322
01:09:48,977 --> 01:09:51,221
because you can understand the
initial flurry around Lucan

1323
01:09:51,221 --> 01:09:52,947
and the excitement.

1324
01:09:52,947 --> 01:09:54,949
This very unlikely murderer.

1325
01:09:56,122 --> 01:09:58,366
Sandra's family were there

1326
01:09:58,366 --> 01:10:03,129
and her father, Albert said
to the press, you know this,

1327
01:10:03,129 --> 01:10:05,235
"This is all meant to
be about my daughter."

1328
01:10:06,374 --> 01:10:09,343
And her Aunt Vera
said the same thing,

1329
01:10:09,343 --> 01:10:11,586
but more, she was stronger.

1330
01:10:11,586 --> 01:10:14,589
"My niece is caught in the
crossfire between the Lucans

1331
01:10:14,589 --> 01:10:17,109
"and it's all about the Lucans."

1332
01:10:17,109 --> 01:10:19,456
Veronica had had a
tough time as well,

1333
01:10:19,456 --> 01:10:24,461
but Sandra's family is where
the sympathy should be going.

1334
01:10:25,151 --> 01:10:26,429
- It's just the dad

1335
01:10:26,429 --> 01:10:29,397
and the aunt sitting
at the back quietly.

1336
01:10:29,397 --> 01:10:32,883
And what they reflect on is

1337
01:10:32,883 --> 01:10:35,817
why wasn't this about Sandra?

1338
01:10:35,817 --> 01:10:38,130
Why was she completely ignored?

1339
01:10:38,130 --> 01:10:40,650
And that is devastating

1340
01:10:40,650 --> 01:10:45,620
because within that you
can hear the frustration,

1341
01:10:46,690 --> 01:10:49,624
the pain, and I
reckon the rage of

1342
01:10:49,624 --> 01:10:54,388
"How dare you ignore
my child, my niece,

1343
01:10:54,388 --> 01:10:57,494
"the victim of this story
as if she doesn't matter."

1344
01:11:00,221 --> 01:11:03,535
- I saw the crime
scene photographs

1345
01:11:03,535 --> 01:11:07,815
and she had taken blows

1346
01:11:07,815 --> 01:11:12,095
to her head, which were
clearly unsurvivable.

1347
01:11:13,338 --> 01:11:15,478
I am no medical expert.

1348
01:11:15,478 --> 01:11:18,377
But you could not have
survived the beating

1349
01:11:18,377 --> 01:11:19,965
that Lord Lucan gave her.

1350
01:11:22,657 --> 01:11:27,421
At the inquest, the main
source of interest was not

1351
01:11:27,421 --> 01:11:30,216
how Sandra died.

1352
01:11:30,216 --> 01:11:32,598
It was where was Lord Lucan

1353
01:11:32,598 --> 01:11:36,740
and what was the jury going
to say in their final verdict?

1354
01:11:36,740 --> 01:11:41,400
Because the inquest turned
into the trial of Lord Lucan.

1355
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,678
Sandra was virtually forgotten.

1356
01:11:45,059 --> 01:11:47,544
- And so it became a bit
of a circus to some degree.

1357
01:11:49,235 --> 01:11:51,617
[tense music]

1358
01:11:53,930 --> 01:11:55,241
The media were there.

1359
01:11:55,241 --> 01:11:58,175
People turned up in
their fine regalia.

1360
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:04,803
You had Lady Lucan

1361
01:12:04,803 --> 01:12:06,908
who was still suffering
from her injuries.

1362
01:12:06,908 --> 01:12:09,221
She had a hat that she wore
every day to hide them.

1363
01:12:10,498 --> 01:12:13,018
- Lord Lucan had hit her
over the head three times

1364
01:12:13,018 --> 01:12:16,124
with the metal bar with
which he'd killed Sandra.

1365
01:12:16,124 --> 01:12:20,922
And she had vertical gashes
running down her scalp like

1366
01:12:20,922 --> 01:12:25,858
this deep bone revealing gashes.

1367
01:12:25,858 --> 01:12:28,205
And she was still scarred

1368
01:12:28,205 --> 01:12:31,485
and her hair was
completely wrecked by this.

1369
01:12:31,485 --> 01:12:33,038
So she was in the habit

1370
01:12:33,038 --> 01:12:36,973
of wearing tight
turban hats each day.

1371
01:12:38,319 --> 01:12:40,045
Lady Lucan's hat attire

1372
01:12:40,045 --> 01:12:43,945
became a sort of a fashion
item in the papers.

1373
01:12:43,945 --> 01:12:46,120
- Nine times out of 10
when you have a inquest

1374
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,675
and a coroner obviously
involved, nobody knows about it.

1375
01:12:49,675 --> 01:12:51,988
But this one was
like everyday news

1376
01:12:51,988 --> 01:12:53,541
and public could have attended.

1377
01:12:53,541 --> 01:12:56,061
It was a circus and I don't
think that that necessarily

1378
01:12:57,338 --> 01:13:01,687
allowed Sandra's family
to find some closure.

1379
01:13:04,103 --> 01:13:07,659
The postmortem in relation to
Sandra Rivett basically showed

1380
01:13:07,659 --> 01:13:10,247
that she had received,
at least is it nine blows

1381
01:13:10,247 --> 01:13:12,629
to the head and face.

1382
01:13:12,629 --> 01:13:15,287
There was significant
blunt trauma

1383
01:13:15,287 --> 01:13:18,877
and ultimately she died
as a result of those blows

1384
01:13:18,877 --> 01:13:21,397
as well as asphyxiation
from her own blood.

1385
01:13:22,467 --> 01:13:24,641
- It's what we call overkill.

1386
01:13:24,641 --> 01:13:27,748
So this was gratuitous in a way.

1387
01:13:27,748 --> 01:13:32,753
It was more violence than was
necessary just to cause death.

1388
01:13:34,064 --> 01:13:37,171
Plausibly, he probably thought

1389
01:13:37,171 --> 01:13:39,587
that it was Veronica
that he was attacking.

1390
01:13:39,587 --> 01:13:44,040
She was the one he felt
all this rage towards,

1391
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,387
that rage was pent up.

1392
01:13:46,387 --> 01:13:50,046
And because it was such
gratuitous violence,

1393
01:13:50,046 --> 01:13:53,221
this killer is not only

1394
01:13:53,221 --> 01:13:56,017
and simply performing
a homicide,

1395
01:13:56,017 --> 01:13:58,744
they're getting
some emotional kind

1396
01:13:58,744 --> 01:14:00,643
of benefit from this as well.

1397
01:14:02,058 --> 01:14:04,060
- The coroner's conclusion,

1398
01:14:04,060 --> 01:14:07,166
and this was quite
rare, he basically said

1399
01:14:07,166 --> 01:14:10,446
that Lord Lucan was responsible
for Sandra Rivett's murder

1400
01:14:10,446 --> 01:14:13,069
and that is something
that was unheard of.

1401
01:14:13,069 --> 01:14:15,899
And it created a
bit of a backlash

1402
01:14:15,899 --> 01:14:18,488
because the whole point
of the inquest was

1403
01:14:18,488 --> 01:14:21,974
to establish the circumstances
surrounding someone's death.

1404
01:14:21,974 --> 01:14:24,667
Was it an accident?
Was it deliberate?

1405
01:14:24,667 --> 01:14:27,946
But the coroner in this
case went beyond that

1406
01:14:27,946 --> 01:14:32,537
and actually indicated that
Lord Lucan was the person

1407
01:14:32,537 --> 01:14:34,884
who had murdered Sandra Rivett.

1408
01:14:34,884 --> 01:14:37,852
[sombre music]

1409
01:14:37,852 --> 01:14:39,475
- What's interesting is because

1410
01:14:39,475 --> 01:14:42,581
of the fanciful nature in the
way this story was written up,

1411
01:14:42,581 --> 01:14:45,308
the press behaved in a way

1412
01:14:45,308 --> 01:14:49,105
that I think disrespected
the death of Sandra Rivett.

1413
01:14:51,797 --> 01:14:55,214
There was a case of the
newspaper report offering a case

1414
01:14:55,214 --> 01:14:59,425
of champagne to a
reader who came up

1415
01:14:59,425 --> 01:15:02,325
with the most inventive

1416
01:15:02,325 --> 01:15:07,364
or fanciful end for Lord
Lucan I.E, where is he now?

1417
01:15:08,227 --> 01:15:11,334
Give this horror story an end

1418
01:15:11,334 --> 01:15:14,371
and we will give you
a crate of champagne.

1419
01:15:14,371 --> 01:15:18,272
So they're turning it
really into a drama

1420
01:15:18,272 --> 01:15:20,964
and it had become,
yeah, a fairy story,

1421
01:15:20,964 --> 01:15:24,105
a horror fairy story,
a grim fairy story.

1422
01:15:26,073 --> 01:15:28,316
- The Fleet Street reporters

1423
01:15:28,316 --> 01:15:32,286
and I speak as someone
who was proudly one

1424
01:15:32,286 --> 01:15:33,736
for many reasons,

1425
01:15:34,875 --> 01:15:37,533
are a pretty unfeeling

1426
01:15:37,533 --> 01:15:42,572
and pretty nasty pack of people.

1427
01:15:43,918 --> 01:15:46,749
A lot of my former colleagues
are now snarling at me.

1428
01:15:46,749 --> 01:15:47,819
But it's true.

1429
01:15:49,268 --> 01:15:53,410
If you are dealing with a
constant stream of nastiness,

1430
01:15:53,410 --> 01:15:56,206
one of the ways of dealing
with that is to laugh it off

1431
01:15:56,206 --> 01:15:58,277
and make gallows jokes about it.

1432
01:15:58,277 --> 01:16:02,592
So I can't deny that the death

1433
01:16:02,592 --> 01:16:07,148
of Sandra Rivett would
not have been greeted by

1434
01:16:07,148 --> 01:16:11,670
the Fleet Street Crime reporting
pack with great sympathy

1435
01:16:11,670 --> 01:16:13,603
and sorrow.

1436
01:16:13,603 --> 01:16:16,433
That's not to say that
on a personal level,

1437
01:16:16,433 --> 01:16:19,885
I, or many of my then colleagues

1438
01:16:19,885 --> 01:16:22,474
would not have had
every sympathy for her

1439
01:16:22,474 --> 01:16:27,168
because she was just so unlucky.

1440
01:16:27,168 --> 01:16:30,896
But when you are in
that situation now,

1441
01:16:30,896 --> 01:16:35,625
50 years ago, the
intense competition

1442
01:16:35,625 --> 01:16:39,387
of Fleet Street, and I'm
talking really intense.

1443
01:16:41,079 --> 01:16:44,461
You were going through a time
in the 70s when she died,

1444
01:16:44,461 --> 01:16:48,224
when both the
police and the press

1445
01:16:48,224 --> 01:16:50,744
were not at their finest,

1446
01:16:50,744 --> 01:16:54,955
their morals were
distinctly un-fine.

1447
01:16:54,955 --> 01:16:57,785
It's regrettable,
but it was how it was

1448
01:16:57,785 --> 01:17:00,961
and it wasn't driven
by anyone's malice,

1449
01:17:00,961 --> 01:17:05,690
it was driven by a need
as reporters and media

1450
01:17:05,690 --> 01:17:09,970
and editors would've seen
it at the time by a need to

1451
01:17:10,798 --> 01:17:13,801
inform and keep circulation.

1452
01:17:13,801 --> 01:17:17,702
I mean, you know, it was
a very competitive era.

1453
01:17:19,635 --> 01:17:23,052
- I think the police
investigation was
pretty terrible.

1454
01:17:23,052 --> 01:17:24,916
There was quite a lot
of insinuation about

1455
01:17:24,916 --> 01:17:26,642
how she had a lot of boyfriends.

1456
01:17:28,298 --> 01:17:31,094
- She clearly liked
having a boyfriend.

1457
01:17:32,268 --> 01:17:35,064
Is that a crime to like
having a boyfriend?

1458
01:17:35,064 --> 01:17:36,824
I mean, it's a
confusing world, the 60s

1459
01:17:36,824 --> 01:17:39,033
and 70s where women
have to have a man,

1460
01:17:39,033 --> 01:17:41,070
but they have to
have a man according

1461
01:17:41,070 --> 01:17:44,694
to the very narrow social
expectations of the day

1462
01:17:44,694 --> 01:17:48,940
and the way Sandra did it
outside of wedlock or divorced.

1463
01:17:48,940 --> 01:17:49,803
Wow.

1464
01:17:50,631 --> 01:17:52,115
And a slight overlap.

1465
01:17:52,115 --> 01:17:53,703
I mean, how many men
have had an overlap?

1466
01:17:53,703 --> 01:17:56,430
Does one really
deserve to be murdered

1467
01:17:56,430 --> 01:17:58,950
for having a very
slight emotional overlap

1468
01:17:58,950 --> 01:18:00,986
in your heterosexual relations?

1469
01:18:00,986 --> 01:18:02,678
I think not, Great Britain.

1470
01:18:04,749 --> 01:18:06,820
- What really makes
me sad about Sandra is

1471
01:18:06,820 --> 01:18:11,859
that if she'd been born
20, even 10 years later,

1472
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:14,897
I think her life would've
been completely different.

1473
01:18:14,897 --> 01:18:18,970
Sandra's sort of acknowledged
boyfriend was Australian,

1474
01:18:18,970 --> 01:18:21,351
he was called John Hankins

1475
01:18:21,351 --> 01:18:25,770
and she'd met him in
the Plumber's Arms Pub.

1476
01:18:25,770 --> 01:18:29,187
They seemed to have
been quite serious

1477
01:18:29,187 --> 01:18:31,465
because it was reported

1478
01:18:31,465 --> 01:18:35,883
that she had asked Roger
Rivett for a divorce

1479
01:18:35,883 --> 01:18:37,643
'cause they never
actually got divorced.

1480
01:18:37,643 --> 01:18:40,646
And he said, "Okay,
I'll divorce you."

1481
01:18:40,646 --> 01:18:42,476
But he never heard
from her again.

1482
01:18:42,476 --> 01:18:43,891
Presumably that was

1483
01:18:43,891 --> 01:18:46,066
because she was getting
serious with John Hankins.

1484
01:18:47,723 --> 01:18:50,208
- Veronica states on
record several times,

1485
01:18:50,208 --> 01:18:51,830
including during the inquiry.

1486
01:18:51,830 --> 01:18:54,695
She never had a
problem with Sandra.

1487
01:18:54,695 --> 01:18:56,662
Sandra had relations with men,

1488
01:18:56,662 --> 01:18:58,492
but she did not
bring those men home.

1489
01:18:58,492 --> 01:19:00,770
They did not affect her work.

1490
01:19:00,770 --> 01:19:04,567
It's irrelevant, it's
totally irrelevant.

1491
01:19:05,671 --> 01:19:09,020
- She had a really
attractive sort of

1492
01:19:09,020 --> 01:19:11,022
conventionally
attractive appearance

1493
01:19:12,195 --> 01:19:14,750
and obviously that's
appealing to the press.

1494
01:19:16,061 --> 01:19:18,063
There was a certain amount
about her boyfriends.

1495
01:19:18,063 --> 01:19:21,135
There was a certain amount
about her broken marriage

1496
01:19:21,135 --> 01:19:24,829
and I think that

1497
01:19:24,829 --> 01:19:27,245
I'm afraid is par
for the course.

1498
01:19:27,245 --> 01:19:29,523
Sadly, I'm not sure how
much that's changed.

1499
01:19:30,973 --> 01:19:32,940
- I don't believe that there
were any preconceived views

1500
01:19:32,940 --> 01:19:34,770
by the officers at the time.

1501
01:19:34,770 --> 01:19:36,668
I tried to put myself
in their position.

1502
01:19:36,668 --> 01:19:40,189
The officers would've turned
up to a horrendous scene.

1503
01:19:40,189 --> 01:19:44,227
They would've established at a
pretty early point the nature

1504
01:19:44,227 --> 01:19:47,058
of the injuries that she
received, that she was a nanny,

1505
01:19:48,162 --> 01:19:50,751
her having a boyfriend
or boyfriends.

1506
01:19:50,751 --> 01:19:53,374
I don't think that was
necessarily anything

1507
01:19:53,374 --> 01:19:54,928
that would've been then thinking

1508
01:19:54,928 --> 01:19:56,653
that had anything to do with it.

1509
01:19:56,653 --> 01:19:59,725
I genuinely think that those
officers were steadfast in

1510
01:19:59,725 --> 01:20:01,935
their desire to
establish the facts.

1511
01:20:01,935 --> 01:20:05,076
So I don't believe that that
had any bearing whatsoever on

1512
01:20:05,076 --> 01:20:07,319
the mindset of those
officers at that time.

1513
01:20:10,012 --> 01:20:11,945
- I think she'd have
had a great time now.

1514
01:20:11,945 --> 01:20:15,741
For somebody like her
who didn't settle,

1515
01:20:16,742 --> 01:20:21,817
which, you know it's not a crime

1516
01:20:23,025 --> 01:20:25,061
and she wouldn't have
had to be a nanny in

1517
01:20:25,061 --> 01:20:27,857
that weird household,
let's face it,

1518
01:20:27,857 --> 01:20:31,619
she'd be alive almost certainly.

1519
01:20:31,619 --> 01:20:34,174
[sombre music]

1520
01:21:17,838 --> 01:21:20,634
[dramatic music]

1521
01:21:28,366 --> 01:21:30,057
- After nearly 50 years,

1522
01:21:30,057 --> 01:21:33,889
my understanding is that
this is still a cold case

1523
01:21:33,889 --> 01:21:35,752
for the Metropolitan
Police Service.

1524
01:21:36,926 --> 01:21:38,755
This case would've
been very frustrating

1525
01:21:38,755 --> 01:21:42,311
for those officers
involved because initially,

1526
01:21:42,311 --> 01:21:44,934
and this is no disrespect
to my colleagues,

1527
01:21:44,934 --> 01:21:48,282
they may have assumed that
this was an open and shut case.

1528
01:21:48,282 --> 01:21:50,043
Everything pointed
to Lord Lucan.

1529
01:21:51,596 --> 01:21:54,910
The problem for them is they
were never ever able to speak

1530
01:21:54,910 --> 01:21:57,326
to him because he disappeared

1531
01:21:57,326 --> 01:21:59,535
and has never been
seen for 50 years.

1532
01:22:01,571 --> 01:22:03,642
- There are all these
unanswered questions,

1533
01:22:03,642 --> 01:22:05,713
but it may be that they're
just unanswered questions

1534
01:22:05,713 --> 01:22:08,026
for YouTubers and podcasters.

1535
01:22:08,026 --> 01:22:11,098
And the fact is we
still know who did it.

1536
01:22:11,098 --> 01:22:13,411
If I had to put forward a
theory, I'd probably say Lucan

1537
01:22:13,411 --> 01:22:16,862
employed a hitman and that's
why they got the wrong woman

1538
01:22:19,210 --> 01:22:21,729
and attacked
Veronica in a panic.

1539
01:22:21,729 --> 01:22:23,766
But even that doesn't
fit all the facts.

1540
01:22:25,112 --> 01:22:27,149
- We all have our views

1541
01:22:27,149 --> 01:22:31,636
and thoughts as to what may
have happened to Lord Lucan.

1542
01:22:31,636 --> 01:22:35,364
From my perspective,
there's nothing to suggest

1543
01:22:35,364 --> 01:22:37,711
that he committed suicide.

1544
01:22:37,711 --> 01:22:39,885
For me, it would suggest that

1545
01:22:39,885 --> 01:22:42,750
after the event
somebody helped him

1546
01:22:42,750 --> 01:22:47,134
to possibly leave the country
at some point in time.

1547
01:22:47,134 --> 01:22:50,103
It didn't have to be in
the first 48, 72 hours.

1548
01:22:50,103 --> 01:22:52,760
It could be a week,
two weeks after

1549
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:56,592
and has probably been
able to look after him

1550
01:22:56,592 --> 01:22:58,663
and support him over the years.

1551
01:22:58,663 --> 01:23:00,113
That is my own personal view.

1552
01:23:00,113 --> 01:23:02,632
I know other people
may probably disagree,

1553
01:23:02,632 --> 01:23:06,843
but it seems too convenient
for someone to have disappeared

1554
01:23:06,843 --> 01:23:09,570
after such a
significant incident

1555
01:23:09,570 --> 01:23:13,505
and not be found for 50 years
without having some help.

1556
01:23:14,851 --> 01:23:18,579
- I still don't believe
Lord Lucan did it.

1557
01:23:18,579 --> 01:23:19,822
No way.

1558
01:23:19,822 --> 01:23:23,722
I don't see him hurting a fly.

1559
01:23:23,722 --> 01:23:26,553
I never allow
myself to judge her.

1560
01:23:26,553 --> 01:23:31,040
They were both lost creatures
in this world of madness.

1561
01:23:34,423 --> 01:23:36,735
[gentle music]

1562
01:23:36,735 --> 01:23:41,395
- The trouble with this
story is so many hangers on

1563
01:23:41,395 --> 01:23:46,435
after the event were just
saying the most unbelievable.

1564
01:23:47,608 --> 01:23:51,095
I still hear things from
people who say, "Oh,

1565
01:23:51,095 --> 01:23:52,579
"Veronica did this."

1566
01:23:52,579 --> 01:23:57,549
or "Do you know Lucan was
fed to a bunch of tigers?"

1567
01:23:58,412 --> 01:24:00,966
And it's all, it's a story

1568
01:24:00,966 --> 01:24:04,591
that breeds a lot
of real nonsense.

1569
01:24:05,799 --> 01:24:07,145
- I've heard the stories

1570
01:24:07,145 --> 01:24:10,079
of Aspinall feeding
Lucan into the tigers.

1571
01:24:10,079 --> 01:24:12,771
I would've believed it more
if he'd fed him to pigs

1572
01:24:12,771 --> 01:24:14,670
'cause pigs will eat anything.

1573
01:24:14,670 --> 01:24:17,569
It's never really
rung true with me.

1574
01:24:19,088 --> 01:24:22,057
Aspinall wasn't a
close friend of his.

1575
01:24:22,057 --> 01:24:24,473
He didn't particularly
like Lucan,

1576
01:24:24,473 --> 01:24:26,613
but Lucan was very useful to him

1577
01:24:26,613 --> 01:24:28,511
because he was seen

1578
01:24:28,511 --> 01:24:32,653
as an aristocratic playing
member at the club,

1579
01:24:32,653 --> 01:24:36,278
an attraction to others
to go to Aspinall's clubs.

1580
01:24:36,278 --> 01:24:39,074
I can think of no reason on
earth that he would've gone

1581
01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:42,870
to the trouble of trying
to feed, you know,

1582
01:24:42,870 --> 01:24:44,527
Lucan to the tigers.

1583
01:24:45,804 --> 01:24:47,012
What happened to him?

1584
01:24:47,875 --> 01:24:49,429
I don't believe he's dead.

1585
01:24:49,429 --> 01:24:53,640
He may by now have
died of natural causes.

1586
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:56,298
He will be 90 very soon.

1587
01:24:57,678 --> 01:25:01,958
But his father lived
to a decent age.

1588
01:25:01,958 --> 01:25:06,894
So if you accept that he ran
away that night and escaped,

1589
01:25:06,894 --> 01:25:11,934
then he may well
still be out there.

1590
01:25:12,521 --> 01:25:14,109
But the family

1591
01:25:14,109 --> 01:25:17,353
and friends of his have tried
very hard through the years

1592
01:25:17,353 --> 01:25:20,701
to suggest that he took
the honourable course

1593
01:25:20,701 --> 01:25:22,151
and killed himself.

1594
01:25:22,151 --> 01:25:25,396
But I've never believed
that for one moment,

1595
01:25:25,396 --> 01:25:28,985
it's very hard to kill yourself
and hide your own body.

1596
01:25:30,539 --> 01:25:34,025
[suspenseful music]

1597
01:25:36,303 --> 01:25:39,272
- Veronica had a really
tough time after all this.

1598
01:25:39,272 --> 01:25:41,343
She got these head wounds.

1599
01:25:41,343 --> 01:25:42,896
She was in hospital.

1600
01:25:42,896 --> 01:25:46,796
She sort of seemed
to cut herself off.

1601
01:25:46,796 --> 01:25:51,767
Her life did start to
sort of fall apart really.

1602
01:25:51,767 --> 01:25:55,702
She did in fact lose her
children at the end of it all.

1603
01:25:55,702 --> 01:25:57,566
- [Interviewer] Are you
going to start proceedings

1604
01:25:57,566 --> 01:26:00,810
to get your husband
declared legally dead?

1605
01:26:00,810 --> 01:26:02,847
- No, I'm not.
- Why not?

1606
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:05,953
- Because I don't think he is.

1607
01:26:08,163 --> 01:26:09,750
- [Interviewer] Would it not
make a difference to your life

1608
01:26:09,750 --> 01:26:11,166
if you did?

1609
01:26:11,166 --> 01:26:14,859
As far as the last seven
years have shown me,

1610
01:26:14,859 --> 01:26:17,344
it would make
absolutely no difference

1611
01:26:17,344 --> 01:26:19,381
to my life whatsoever.

1612
01:26:19,381 --> 01:26:22,522
Apart from doing
something which I don't

1613
01:26:22,522 --> 01:26:24,248
really believe to be true.

1614
01:26:24,248 --> 01:26:25,835
- [Interviewer] Do you
think you'll see him again?

1615
01:26:25,835 --> 01:26:27,285
- I always hope to,

1616
01:26:27,285 --> 01:26:29,977
but I have a feeling that
I won't see him again.

1617
01:26:29,977 --> 01:26:31,324
I don't think he'll come back.

1618
01:26:31,324 --> 01:26:33,533
He'll have made another
life for himself.

1619
01:26:35,397 --> 01:26:38,365
I always hope though,
there's always a possibility.

1620
01:26:38,365 --> 01:26:40,160
- How has life changed for you?

1621
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:41,782
What do you do from day to day?

1622
01:26:42,990 --> 01:26:47,271
- It's changed to one
day is like another.

1623
01:26:47,271 --> 01:26:50,377
It's like being isolated.

1624
01:26:50,377 --> 01:26:52,034
It's worse than being in prison

1625
01:26:53,484 --> 01:26:58,040
because I haven't got any prison
inmates with me to talk to.

1626
01:26:58,868 --> 01:27:00,180
I'm in solitary confinement

1627
01:27:01,561 --> 01:27:05,220
and I feel hostility from
those that I knew before.

1628
01:27:05,220 --> 01:27:10,052
- She lived in the muse house
behind Lower Belgrave Street.

1629
01:27:10,052 --> 01:27:13,814
And then she would occasionally
say, "I still adore John."

1630
01:27:13,814 --> 01:27:15,954
As she called him, Lucan.

1631
01:27:15,954 --> 01:27:17,232
She kept his portrait.

1632
01:27:19,648 --> 01:27:23,341
She's very
complicated, Veronica.

1633
01:27:23,341 --> 01:27:26,931
She deliberately went on
television near the end

1634
01:27:26,931 --> 01:27:31,418
of her life and just to
reassert her version of events,

1635
01:27:31,418 --> 01:27:34,835
[gentle music]

1636
01:27:34,835 --> 01:27:37,217
she was brilliant,
absolutely brilliant

1637
01:27:38,563 --> 01:27:40,841
'cause I think it did
worry her that people said,

1638
01:27:42,981 --> 01:27:46,502
you know, some of this
evidence is a bit conflicting.

1639
01:27:46,502 --> 01:27:51,058
She did have friends, but
she seemed still to be

1640
01:27:51,058 --> 01:27:54,786
very, I don't know if she
was obsessed with Lucan,

1641
01:27:54,786 --> 01:27:56,374
but I think the idea
of having married him,

1642
01:27:56,374 --> 01:27:57,996
I think that still pleased her.

1643
01:27:59,619 --> 01:28:02,415
I saw her near Buckingham
Palace not that long

1644
01:28:02,415 --> 01:28:03,899
before she died actually.

1645
01:28:03,899 --> 01:28:07,040
And she looked very, you
know, she was immaculate

1646
01:28:09,387 --> 01:28:12,079
like older ladies
in the 1970s really.

1647
01:28:13,943 --> 01:28:15,635
She died in 2017.

1648
01:28:15,635 --> 01:28:19,432
It seems a very difficult life.

1649
01:28:21,641 --> 01:28:23,159
- Veronica said towards
the end of her life,

1650
01:28:23,159 --> 01:28:25,714
her biggest fear was
becoming dependent on others

1651
01:28:25,714 --> 01:28:28,579
and that she supported
assisted suicide.

1652
01:28:28,579 --> 01:28:31,167
And I don't think
it's any real surprise

1653
01:28:31,167 --> 01:28:34,688
that she was subsequently
found dead in her own home.

1654
01:28:34,688 --> 01:28:38,692
And it was presumed that she
had indeed taken her own life.

1655
01:28:38,692 --> 01:28:41,661
There is something
really very pitiful

1656
01:28:41,661 --> 01:28:43,939
about the whole episode.

1657
01:28:45,837 --> 01:28:49,772
- She was quite a
feisty lady who was able

1658
01:28:49,772 --> 01:28:51,084
to stick up for herself.

1659
01:28:52,499 --> 01:28:55,709
I met her many years
after this all happened.

1660
01:28:57,573 --> 01:29:00,852
I went to her house
and I spoke to her

1661
01:29:00,852 --> 01:29:04,200
and she invited me in
knowing I was a journalist

1662
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:05,995
or knowing as I
was then an author.

1663
01:29:05,995 --> 01:29:08,550
I wanted to write
a book about it.

1664
01:29:08,550 --> 01:29:10,137
So I introduced myself.

1665
01:29:10,137 --> 01:29:14,072
She invited me into a little
tiny living room that she had

1666
01:29:14,072 --> 01:29:16,040
and she actually brought out tea

1667
01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:17,697
and we had a cup
of tea together.

1668
01:29:19,112 --> 01:29:21,908
And she was pleasant and helpful

1669
01:29:21,908 --> 01:29:26,533
and she tried to paint Lord
Lucan in quite a good light.

1670
01:29:26,533 --> 01:29:29,743
She wasn't desperately
nasty about him at all.

1671
01:29:29,743 --> 01:29:34,058
And I went back the very next
day, banged on the same door

1672
01:29:34,058 --> 01:29:38,200
and she opened the door and
threw a cup of urine in over me

1673
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:40,409
and started literally
in the middle

1674
01:29:40,409 --> 01:29:43,481
of the street screaming
I was gutter press

1675
01:29:43,481 --> 01:29:45,759
and I should F off.

1676
01:29:45,759 --> 01:29:49,211
And I told that story
to Bill Shand Kydd,

1677
01:29:49,211 --> 01:29:52,870
who'd raised her children and
knew her very well indeed.

1678
01:29:52,870 --> 01:29:55,976
And he said, "Oh, that
was typical Veronica."

1679
01:29:59,428 --> 01:30:00,947
- I think what was very touching

1680
01:30:00,947 --> 01:30:03,294
and really in some ways typical
of what we've got to know

1681
01:30:03,294 --> 01:30:07,850
of Veronica, that she was able
to recognise that the tragedy

1682
01:30:07,850 --> 01:30:10,370
of their marriage and the
discord in that marriage led

1683
01:30:10,370 --> 01:30:12,890
to the loss of
Sandra Rivett's life

1684
01:30:12,890 --> 01:30:15,686
and how sorry she
was about that.

1685
01:30:15,686 --> 01:30:17,998
And that there was nothing
she could do about that,

1686
01:30:17,998 --> 01:30:21,864
but that she would
never forget her or it.

1687
01:30:21,864 --> 01:30:26,869
And that really
speaks to Veronica's
humanity, her empathy,

1688
01:30:28,146 --> 01:30:32,357
and also to a sisterhood,
if you like, almost,

1689
01:30:33,531 --> 01:30:37,121
with a fellow woman who
hadn't had an easy path

1690
01:30:37,121 --> 01:30:40,296
and who'd got caught
up in a psychodrama

1691
01:30:40,296 --> 01:30:42,920
that was really of
none of her doing.

1692
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:45,509
[gentle piano music]

1693
01:30:46,924 --> 01:30:50,583
- Sandra's sister described
her in the newspapers.

1694
01:30:50,583 --> 01:30:52,895
She said she was fun-loving.

1695
01:30:52,895 --> 01:30:56,416
She was, you know,
up for a laugh.

1696
01:30:56,416 --> 01:31:01,317
She was sociable, she
was kind, thoughtful.

1697
01:31:02,387 --> 01:31:05,011
Just all the things
that make you

1698
01:31:05,011 --> 01:31:09,498
think she was actually
a lovely young woman.

1699
01:31:09,498 --> 01:31:14,365
And it it just very, very
poignant tribute to her.

1700
01:31:19,750 --> 01:31:21,165
- John actually,

1701
01:31:21,165 --> 01:31:24,962
her last boyfriend said
she was a really good girl.

1702
01:31:24,962 --> 01:31:27,447
He actually was deeply one
of the most touching bits

1703
01:31:27,447 --> 01:31:29,622
of the case, but
never gets heard.

1704
01:31:29,622 --> 01:31:31,209
She was a lovely lass.

1705
01:31:31,209 --> 01:31:33,833
She might have had a
rather lovely future

1706
01:31:33,833 --> 01:31:35,766
after a bit of a
questionable start in life.

1707
01:31:35,766 --> 01:31:36,629
Poor girl.

1708
01:31:39,528 --> 01:31:42,462
- John Hankins talked to
the papers quite a lot

1709
01:31:42,462 --> 01:31:44,706
after it all happened.

1710
01:31:44,706 --> 01:31:47,467
He gave the impression
that they might have gone

1711
01:31:47,467 --> 01:31:51,091
to Australia, they might have
had a happy life together.

1712
01:31:55,579 --> 01:31:58,582
- She was a lovely
girl, lovely nature.

1713
01:31:59,928 --> 01:32:02,309
And it's sad really 'cause
she didn't deserve that,

1714
01:32:03,448 --> 01:32:05,002
didn't have a bad
bone in her at all.

1715
01:32:12,906 --> 01:32:15,530
[bright music]

1716
01:32:19,464 --> 01:32:22,191
- I think it's so often
the case when we report

1717
01:32:22,191 --> 01:32:25,988
or record crime, the
victim gets overlooked

1718
01:32:25,988 --> 01:32:27,783
time and time again.

1719
01:32:27,783 --> 01:32:31,131
And when we refer to
the case of Lord Lucan,

1720
01:32:31,131 --> 01:32:34,894
can we please put
before his name,

1721
01:32:34,894 --> 01:32:38,725
the name of the
victim of the murder.

1722
01:32:38,725 --> 01:32:41,245
She was called Sandra Rivett,

1723
01:32:41,245 --> 01:32:42,833
and she lost her life on

1724
01:32:42,833 --> 01:32:46,733
that night in a basement
in London in 1974.

1725
01:32:47,631 --> 01:32:49,494
The innocent victim of the case.

1726
01:32:51,324 --> 01:32:53,947
[bright music]

1727
01:33:14,968 --> 01:33:18,420
[bright music continues]

1728
01:33:28,016 --> 01:33:31,053
[bright music ends]